Season finale review: 'Game of Thrones' - 'Valar Morghulis': A horse with no neck
Many lies are told, and roads are not taken, as the second season ends
Alfie Allen as Theon Greyjoy in "Game of Thrones."
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A review of last night's "Game of Thrones" season finale coming up just as soon as I have questions for wise men with skinny arms...
"This war has just begun. It will last for years." -Melisandre
Though last week's "Blackwater" was a creative high point for the series, it was also the first time I really felt at a disadvantage for not having read the books(*). I loved the intensity and grandeur that hour, loved many individual moments like Bronn taking out a chunk of Stannis' fleet with a single arrow, or Tyrion convincing himself along with his troops while delivering that speech. Yet after the fact I realized I had missed a lot of crucial things: that the Hound quit the fight because of his fear of fire, that Stannis was being dragged away by his own men and not taken prisoner, that it was one of the Kingsguard who slashed Tyrion's face, and that it was Loras Tyrell (wearing Renly's armor, apparently) and not Lancel Lannister entering the throne room after the victory. Many of those things became clear on a second view, and/or after discussion with other viewers — the Hound's problems with fire are hinted at, for instance, when he threatens to kill an archer if a flaming arrow lands anywhere near him — but in the moment, so much was happening in the dark that I couldn't keep up with it all.
(*) And let me remind you — both here and down below — that ANY discussion of the books, in any way, is verboten. We're here to talk about the show as a show, and if you have to get into things that aren't actually in the TV show, that's what the message board discussion is for.
And in "Valar Morghulis," some of that confusion continued. Because I hadn't entirely followed the disposition of Stannis last week, I spent much of the Stannis/Melisandre scene wondering if it was some kind of magical conversation he was having while rotting in a King's Landing dungeon. And the show completely fell down on the job in terms of explaining what happened to Winterfell in between when Finchy cold-cocked Theon and when Osha and Hodor brought the kids up from the tunnels. Where exactly was that 500-strong force of friendly bannermen, who could have escorted the boys safely to their brother and mother?
That's a rhetorical question, by the way. If it's explained better in the books, I don't want to hear about it. One of the reasons I'm so militant about book spoilers is because of my belief that if you can't understand "Game of Thrones" without constant annotations from people who have read the books, then it has failed as a television show. There were a few instances here and there in the first season where I felt Benioff and Weiss did a poor job of letting newbies in on a key piece of information (that Theon was a well-kept hostage of the Starks, for instance), but for the most part, I could track it all. But as the scope of the series has expanded this season to include more characters, more locations, more kings, I'm starting to wonder if it's impossible to fully appreciate and enjoy all that's happening without that book knowledge. And I imagine that's only going to get trickier as the series moves along.
Beyond those points of my confusion, a traditionally constructed episode like "Valar Morghulis" suffered from having to follow the tightly focused "Blackwater." Once you've seen how well the show does at following a single story thread rather than bouncing from one to the next to the next, it's hard to go back to the old way of doing it. Even if the extra time of the finale allowed each visit to be a little longer, and even if Benioff and Weiss did their best to tell one story at a time, rather than constantly shifting back and forth, the drama still felt much slacker than it did the week before — it felt like an hour and ten minutes of "where are they now" epilogue material after the season properly climaxed with "Blackwater."
The idea of an HBO drama season having its dramatic peak in its penultimate episode isn't new. David Chase and David Simon both made an art of that on "The Sopranos" and "The Wire," respectively. But because "Blackwater" showed me what this series could be if it told its stories differently, it was tougher to go back to seeing them told the same way.
This show isn't exactly like "Lost," but George R.R. Martin and others have made that comparison, and it's a comparison the show hasn't run away from: we open the finale on Tyrion's eyeball, after all. But one of the things "Lost" was very smartly able to do, especially in the early days when it still used the flashback structure, was to tell one story at a time so it could be told as well as possible. An hour would focus on a single character, or perhaps a handful of characters, without worrying about what Jin and Sun, or Boone and Shannon were up to. There would be episodes that moved many stories along at once, but the hours with the tighter focus made our understanding of every person and every story feel that much richer, and made the big moments stand out more.
That's obviously harder to do when you're working with 10 hours a season rather than 22 (or even the 16 of latter-day "Lost"). But seeing "Blackwater" sandwiched in between "The Prince of Winterfell" and "Valar Morghulis" made me wish that Benioff and Weiss would be more willing to vary their approach. If you give us 5 minutes of Jon Snow per episode, I don't much care about what's happening to Jon Snow. If you pack it all into a single hour, maybe I do.
Or maybe the problem is simply that season 2 was based on what seems to be a transitional book in the series. Season 1 introduces the characters and starts the war, and then season 2 just introduces more characters, keeps parts of the war going while tabling others, and bringing precious little to conclusion. The entire Jon Snow arc of the season was simply setting up what's coming next; same with Dany's time in Qarth, and Arya's time in Harrenhal.
The end of "Valar Morghulis" also evoked "Lost," which had a knack for closing out flat episodes and/or seasons with such a gripping cliffhanger that it made you ignore how little of substance had happened leading up to it. I could complain about how easily Dany defeated Warlock Dean Pelton, for instance, but... hey, look! Zombie horse!
The massing of the zombie army to the north, and Dany finally gathering the means to buy a ship, signals trouble for those characters remaining in Westeros — and also suggests that several of the characters who were offered chances to escape their present circumstances in the finale might have been better off taking them.
Sure, Theon running to the Wall would have put him even closer to the walking dead, but when the zombies and/or dragons make it to King's Landing, I'm going to guess that Tyrion will wish he'd taken Shae to Pentos, and/or that Arya will wish she was over in Braavos learning how to be a faceless girl.
And it was in the stories of Theon and Tyrion that both the finale, and the season as a whole, were strongest, because they felt like actual stories in and of themselves, rather than an opportunity to move the pieces forward for the next phase of the game. Both men are alive and will continue to be part of the narrative, but their arcs for this season had a beginning, a middle and an end, regardless of what they do next.
I compared Theon in an earlier review to Jon Snow, but the parallel with Tyrion seems more apt at season's end. Each man grew up in a family where they never quite belonged, and where violence from childhood (the deaths of Theon's brothers, Tyrion's mom dying in labor) colors their every familial relationship. Each aspires to impress their blood relations, and each makes a move late in the season that seems like it has the potential to do that, as Theon seizes Winterfell and Tyrion commands the defense of King's Landing.
But Theon proves to be in way over his head — tragically stuck in some limbo region between the family that was nice to him under terrible circumstances and the one that treats him like a joke when he's finally returned to them — and doesn't realize that seizing a land-locked city will do little to impress a family of seafarers.
Tyrion is much better at playing his game, finding ways to outmaneuver Cersei and the Small Council, and doing an incredible job in the face overwhelming odds against Stannis' fleet, but it's still not enough. His soldiers are badly outnumbered, and too many members of Tyrion's family despise him and are just looking for an excuse to knock him off his temporary perch.
So Theon gets dragged back to the Iron Islands with a bag over his head, no doubt doomed for more scorn from his father and sister, while Tyrion is relocated to a shabby room deep in the castle, no doubt wishing to put a bag over his head to conceal his (very Omar-like) scar. Tywin is the only hero of the siege of King's Landing, and he's the new Hand of the King, and Tyrion doesn't even get to be a historical footnote.
Just before Tywin enters the throne room to accept his accolades, we see a literal bunch of horse shit fall to the floor from his mount, and much of what follows in the episode feels like a metaphorical batch of the same: that Tyrion had nothing to do with saving the city, that Renly's widow loves anything about Joffrey other than the power and prestige he's about to give her, that the Iron men buy into Theon's speech (even though Finchy acknowledges it was a good one), that Xaro Xhoan Ducksauce's vault was full of priceless jewels (and I was pleased to successfully predict that it would be like Al Capone's vault when Geraldo opened it), that Jaqen's name is actually Jaqen (and that his face actually looks like that), that Warlock Dean Pelton is all-powerful, etc.
But in a few individual moments — Theon speaking to Maester Luwin, Tyrion confessing to Shae why he can't leave this horrible place, even Dany being reunited with her beloved Khal Drogo in some kind of dream space — "Valar Morghulis" was completely, utterly, powerfully honest. And I'll try to focus on moments like that — and, yes, on that final image of the zombies marching towards the Wall — in the long wait before season 3 begins.
Some other thoughts:
* I called it wrong on Sansa taking off with the Hound. That's another case where not having access to the books — or, at least, to her inner monologue (and Sansa not having any character she trusts enough to reveal her thoughts to) — was a problem, because as presented over the course of the season, it seems spectacularly stupid and naive for her to stay in this place.
* Where last season climaxed with the death of our central character, and bumped off other major players like Robert and Khal Drogo, season 2's big casualties were Renly (never all that prominent, and killed relatively early) and Maester Luwin, who had a bit more to do this season, but never enough that I felt his loss nearly as much as Bran and Rickon did.
* Speaking of Drogo, loved seeing him again for a few minutes, whether that was really him or just another trick of the Warlock's. Such great chemistry between Emilia Clarke and Jason Momoa, and their interaction brought back all the warm feelings I had for Dany in season 1 after she spent most of this season being petulant and yelling about her dragons. I also liked the glimpse — possibly a real premonition, but just as possibly still another trick — of a future where Winter has come and the dragons have burned King's Landing.
* The "Midnight Run" parallels continued for Brienne and Jaime (and thanks to @Kickpuncher for making me this new Twitter avatar), as he kept trying to needle her into making a mistake. And yet you could see in his eyes after she killed the three Stark soldiers — two quickly, one slowly — that whenever he does trick her into untying him and letting him hold a sword, she won't be nearly as easy to defeat as he's been assuming. Don't mess with the tall blonde lady, fellas.
* I can appreciate Robb's distrust of his mother after she let Jaime go, but marrying Talisa and breaking his promise to Walder Frey is going to backfire, no? Even if, for the moment, the combined armies of the Lannisters and Tyrells are too busy congratulating themselves in King's Landing to mount any kind of attack on the King in the North.
* Adding to my confusion as to Stannis' whereabouts was that the main title sequence didn't return to Dragonstone, even as it made sure to stop at Harrenhal and the Pyke, two locations no characters we care about were in during this episode. During season 1, there were certain locations that appeared in the credits every week whether we visited them or not (Winterfell, the Wall, Dothraki country), but others (Pentos, the Eyrie) only appeared in whichever episodes featured major characters there.
* Speaking of Harrenhal, Littlefinger (one of a handful of characters the show was comfortable ignoring for large stretches of the season) inherits the place after all. But how much will he get to enjoy it if Varys and Ros do team up to exploit whatever his vulnerabilities are?
* I'm less impressed with my prediction that Halfhand would die trying to establish Jon Snow as a traitor so he could go undercover in Mance's army than I was with my Ducksauce vault prediction — Halfhand strongly implied it a couple of weeks ago, after all — but hopefully now that Jon Snow is going to meet Mance (who will presumably be played by an impressive British actor), that story will pick up steam in season 3.
And for the last time this season, we're going to keep the book/spoiler issue as simple as possible. We are here to discuss "Game of Thrones" AS A TV SHOW, NOT AS AN ENDLESS SERIES OF COMPARISONS TO THE BOOKS. Therefore, here's the only rule you should remember: if your comment contains the phrase "the books" without it being immediately preceded by "I haven't read," then you should probably delete what you've written and start over. Anything even vaguely questionable will be deleted, and if you see something that I haven't already removed, please feel free to email me. As usual, I've set up a message board discussion thread where you can do as much TV vs. books discussion as you want. In these comments, everything book-related that has yet to come up on the TV show (plot, characters we haven't met, motivation, etc.) is verboten.
What did everybody else think?
Alan Sepinwall may be reached at sepinwall@hitfix.com
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Next 461 CommentsJenny
June 4, 2012 at 9:47AM EST Reply to CommentChaining Dany next to her dragons is like constructing an aquarium to imprison Aquaman.
TommyB10 The warlock said that having Dany and the dragons together amplified his magic so he probably felt confident that he could control them. In fairness until that point neither Dany or the dragons hadn't shown herself to be much of a threat
June 4, 2012 at 10:09AM ESTMatthew Apparently should of gagged her as well..... hell should of gagged her many episodes ago. Wouldn't have to put up with all that MY DRAGONS, MY THRONE, blah blah blah..... So glad even in her dream or whatever that she didn't touch the throne. As of right now she doesn't deserve it.
June 4, 2012 at 10:15AM ESTGrammar Policeman Should HAVE. Should HAVE.
June 4, 2012 at 2:27PM ESTSorry. End rant.
To be fair, Warlock Dean Pelton did look momentarily surprised and then relieved when the dragon belched a little smoke. At that precise moment he seemed to be thinking he was correct in assuming they weren't old enough to spit fire yet.
June 4, 2012 at 2:50PM ESTThat was a whole lot of fire for a itty bitty dragon :p
Ken Raining Did anybody else say "Dean-a-ling-a-ling" whenever Warlock Dean Pelton came onscreen, or was it just me?
June 5, 2012 at 12:11AM EST
I always start having the weirdest thoughts about how the warlock from the D&D movie somehow sired a kid with Dean Pelton.
June 5, 2012 at 4:49AM ESTZach R.
June 4, 2012 at 9:52AM EST Reply to CommentIn the writers defense, perhaps the burning of Winterfell is a mystery to be resolved next.season? I suppose the iron islanders could have done it to cover their escape but we didn't see that so it could be something different.
Bill That was handled very confusingly. If it's meant to be a mystery, why didn't Bran or Osha question what had happened? I kept waiting for Maester Luwin to tell Osha what had gone down, or at least hint at it before the camera cut away. He was above ground and should have had a better sense of things. I would think that the Iron Men simply intended to turn Theon over to the Northerners to secure their freedom. Setting the castle afire wouldn't seem to serve anyone's ends. Clearly, there is something more going on here than the writers let on, but they should have given us something. If everything is supposed to come into focus, tell us that in some way. For such a major event, this was handled very clumsily and was probably the most disappointing part of the hour for me.
June 4, 2012 at 10:07AM ESTAl This is just me speculating, I haven't read the books, but could it be that the 500 men army from the North, that are not from Winterfell but under a different clan (I forget the name) are upset with the Stark family for letting Jaime Lannister go? It seems a bit far fetched I know, but how to explain the fact that Bran, Rickon, Osha weren't at least greeted by the North army who had laid the siege in the first place.
June 4, 2012 at 10:32AM ESTyoungjt80 I just figured they decided to burn it on their way out. Kind of like how a rock band would trash their instruments at the end of the show. I didn't get the feeling that there was some mystery behind it or that anything more was going on.
June 4, 2012 at 11:00AM ESTjoel OH FOR CHRISSAKES, WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO WINTERFELL? I was hoping Alan would have a better guess, or that someone would chime in, but he's apparently put the kibosh on that.
June 4, 2012 at 11:11AM EST@Youngjt80: I wondered about that too, but a dick move like that is certainly not going to buy a free pass home. And if the "500 Northerners" laying siege actually had it in for the Starks, then that was the really not clear at all.
I sometimes think the whole point of Game of Thrones is just to make the Starks suffer every indignity and poor twist of fate imaginable. I'm quickly becoming convinced that is true.
Dr. Gross A lot needs to be explained with respect to that series of events. Robb had said that any iron born, other than Theon, who surrenders will be allowed to leave, so I thought they were going to turn Theon over and walk away. But it doesn't seem to add up that they would burn the city and kill everyone if they were surrendering, so perhaps Alan is right that they were dragging Theon back to Pyke. But how did they slip past the 500 men that were supposedly surrounding Winterfell? Like I said, a lot of questions. Unfortunately, none of them are interesting enough to qualify as a cliffhanger.
June 4, 2012 at 11:16AM ESTI did enjoy the episode as a whole, though.
Dezbot Maybe Maester Luwin told Finchy about the tunnels under Winterfell as well?
June 4, 2012 at 11:33AM ESTMike.D The man who led the 500 on Winterfell was Dolton's bastard son, the Dolton's have a history with the Stark's and a loose alliance.
June 4, 2012 at 11:34AM ESTAt this point I don't think there is any other option other than the 500 men sacked Witnerfell and probably killed the Iron Islanders and took Theon. This will cause issues between the greyjoys and stark's even deeper. This was done to repay and weaken the Stark's.
That's the best guess I have, the Iron Islanders were walking out of Winterfell right after they hooded Theon, they couldn't do that damage to Winterfell by themselves.
bbq_hax0r Robb did say all Iron Islanders would be pardoned if they turned over Theon. So it seems highly unlikely that they would trash Winterfell on the way out. It also looked like they were ready to move on after they KO'd Theon.
June 4, 2012 at 11:49AM ESTRoose Bolton, the squirrely guy who has been most prominent as Robb's bannerman, sent his bastard to reclaim Winterfell. I'm assuming that is who burned it. It makes no sense that they would miraculously be gone and the Iron Islanders thrashing shit. They showed a scene of Winterfell burning, certainly it wasn't like that when the Northmen arrived and the Iron Islanders hoping to escape a siege with their lives wouldn't do anything else to tempt the army besieging them.
JP Also speculating - since Bran and Osha were underground the whole time, maybe they thought the Iron Islanders did it?
June 4, 2012 at 12:49PM ESTThe clan name is the Boltons, BTW. Not sure about the status of their talent or if they're ass clowns.
Brian Maybe the Boltons have realized that Robb has little chance of winning and have decided to team up with the Lannisters? I took the burning of Winterfell as some move against Robb by the northerners who had come to set Bran/Rickon free.
June 4, 2012 at 1:38PM ESTAlison I feel like the Previously On stuff hinted strongly that Finchy and his men were going to turn Theon in and then go home safely (I can't believe they would know about the tunnels or be able to escape 500 men). The burning is a mystery, though. I would assume they burned it b/c they could and they are thugs, but weren't there dead bodies, as well? That hints at a battle.
June 4, 2012 at 2:00PM EST
IMO, it was left as a cliffhanger with Luwin likely only telling Osha to protect the boys from the truth. They were already seeing their grandfather figure die and their home burnt to the ground, they didn't need to add more to it.
June 4, 2012 at 2:51PM ESTJenn @JP That's an interesting idea. Perhaps any mercy towards the Iron Islanders was thrown out the window when Robb's bannermen caught sight of those two burned young bodies and assumed they were the little lords.
June 4, 2012 at 8:26PM ESTLou Bogoda Luwin mentioned to Theon the existence of tunnels when he told him to head for the wall. My guess is the Ironmen burned Winterfell and hit the tunnels with Theon. I doubt they would turn him over to the Northerners, as Theon (in the same convo with Luwin about the tunnels) said that if he escapes and makes it to the Iron Islands, he would be deemed a coward. And I don't think such a culture would look kindly upon its sailors handing over the prince, regardless of how big of a black sheep he is.
June 4, 2012 at 11:19PM ESTSo, my guess -- and I've never even seen one of the books in person -- is that the Iron Men knocked out Theon for his own good & used the tunnels to take him back to the Islands.
Ken Raining Is it possible that the 500 men weren't really out there, and that the Iron Islanders faked the siege (and the horn) to catch Theon off guard? I've no idea why they would do that, unless they were commanded to by Theon's father as a way to test his mettle or something. Seems a very elaborate, convoluted plan, but Theon's father seems like an elaborate, convoluted kind of guy.
June 5, 2012 at 12:17AM ESTIt was a good speech, though.
Ken, Theon is the one who tells us about their numbers because he saw them himself walking the battlements.
June 5, 2012 at 4:50AM ESTI don't think Balon had anything to do with it. If anyone from the Isles influenced the crew it was likely Asha.
Ken Raining Unless Balon also sent 500 men (under Asha) to fake the siege. Remember, it was Finchy who planted the idea in Theon's head to raid Winterfell, so it's not too big a leap that it was all part of some elaborate plan. I dunno, I might be reaching, but the whole thing's just weird. Unless the Northmen burned the city looking for the Iron Islanders, so Luwin didn't think the boys could trust them, there's no reason to send them off on their own.
June 5, 2012 at 8:35AM ESTMichael Corcoran
June 4, 2012 at 9:53AM EST Reply to CommentI was not really thrilled with this episode. Only the faceless man scene really had me really enthralled. And the season, as Alan notes, resolved so little. When season 1 concluded, my mind was blown by the Ned Stark plot etc ... now I feel a little bored by it all.
Bull @ Tim - most of the season was leading up to Blackwater, so your theory about everyone sitting around "plotting" is either willfully ignorant or just stupid.
June 4, 2012 at 10:44PM ESTExtraneous_Ed
June 4, 2012 at 9:53AM EST Reply to CommentWas anyone else reminded of the Klingon High Council Chambers by the shots of the Throne room? That red glow . . .
tim_masterson
June 4, 2012 at 9:54AM EST Reply to CommentI can't help but feeling we doing go very far this season. Rob Stark is still fighting the Lannisters, Arya is still trying to get home. Sansa is still trapped in King's Landing. Dany is still trying to
build an army. Jon Snow has gone from being stuck on the Wall to being stuck behind the Wall. Joffrey is still the king and is still Joffrey. Winter is still coming.
evolution1085 You have to look at the story as part of a timeline. It's (eventually) going to be a story told in 6 volumes. We're through 2 of them story wise. Knowing star wars (the original trilogy) is 3 parts, is it a big deal there are still plenty of dangling pieces after new hope?
June 4, 2012 at 10:12AM EST
One difference is that signification things changed at the end of the Star Wars movies. Qui-Gon died, Obi-Wan took on Anakin, Palpatine became Emperor. The Clone War started, Anakin and Padme got together. Anakin became Darth Vader, the Jedi were wiped out. The Death Star got blowed up but good. Luke learned Darth was his dad, Han Solo was taken away frozen. Death Star II got blowed up, the Emperor was killed, Darth Vader found redemption.
June 4, 2012 at 10:19AM ESTI don't feel like this scene had an narrative arc that ended a chapter in the overall story.
evolution1085 I can see that point, but the narrative structure does have jumping off points, and this is a story that's going to be told over several years it seems (winter will most likely last into adulthood for most of the kids who manage to survive), so I'd say patience will be rewarded. And if you can't wait, there's always a couple thousand pages to read to fill the time.
June 4, 2012 at 10:54AM ESTBrian Well, we had 5 potential kings at the start of the season (Joff, Stannis, Renly, Robb and Greyjoy) and we are now down the 3. So that's something. Also, this is only season 2 of what is probably going to have to be 10 or so seasons to tell the whole story. Its going to be a slow burn.
June 4, 2012 at 1:41PM EST
Arya is free of Harrenhal and off on her own, vowing to get her family back. She's confident and has a mysterious coin.
June 4, 2012 at 3:16PM ESTJon is infilitrating the wildling army in a position of good grace whereas he was told repeatedly you only get what you earn on the wall in s1
Robb has become a man and started making decisions on his own for better or worse. He's perhaps becoming complacent in his victories.
Cat is desperate and has screwed up big time. She's no longer the confident, all together woman she once was.
Sansa has learned not to trust anyone and that she's safer playing the game herself than trusting her life to two men who have obvious interest in her.
Bran became a little lordling and grew far beyond his years, he also learned more about his dreams and is now setting north with a more mellow Rickon and Osha who has become their protector.
Tyrion basically ran the kingdom and was unceremoniously booted aside during his finest hour.
Loras is avenging Renly's death and adding a huge amount of power to the Lannister's. His sister, who isn't quite as pretty as he is, is moving forward at a dangerous speed.
Theon went from being Robb's most trusted friend to betraying everything the Starks held dear. Cat treated him better than Ned's own bastard.
Jamie is free-ish and on the move with an incredibly capable and honorable female knight whose story is absurdly compelling.
Cersei, well I think she has lost her damn mind :P
Tywin has gone from cocky to humbled and has withdrawn to King's Landing to mass his forces for retaliation.
Stannis got his butt handed to him because he didn't trust in his red priestess and was feeling the huge burden of guilt for what he had done.
Dany went from completely helpless to a struggling, albeit annoying, matriarch and seems to have finally found not only her footing and confidence, but her means to return to Westeros as well.
I could keep going with the developments of the minor characters like Littlefinger, The Hound, etc... but I think you see my point. A whole heck of a lot happened.
the minister "I could keep going with the developments of the minor characters like Littlefinger, The Hound, etc... but I think you see my point. A whole heck of a lot happened."
June 4, 2012 at 6:37PM EST=============
Yes, but this Game of Tubes and Pipes is where the dyspeptic go to inflict their discontent on the tragically happy and well-entertained.
Then again, I knew that when I walked up the steps to the tower, didn't I? Doh!
The bear did what?
June 4, 2012 at 10:19PM ESTMichael K
June 4, 2012 at 9:55AM EST Reply to Comment"I can appreciate Robb's distrust of his mother after she let Jaime go, but marrying Talisa and breaking his promise to Walder Frey is going to backfire, no?"
I could be wrong, I just started the second book and haven't gotten more than a chapter in, but it DEFINITELY looked like Robb DID marry Frey's daughter.
Talisa was *beautiful*. The girl he married had a large nose and a plain face. Not ugly, but no Talisa. I'll be curious if other commenters agree, but I feel pretty confident about that.
MK No, that girl he married was Talisa, I'm sure of it. I have a huge problem with this scenario. In a world where birth and your place in society means so much, no way would a Lord, let along a King, marry a commoner.
June 4, 2012 at 9:59AM ESTGarbageman Or perhaps Lady Talisa is just a 9 from the front and a 6 in profile.
June 4, 2012 at 10:03AM EST
Maybe she's a two face. Robb might only want to see her in the diner booth in the back corner.
June 4, 2012 at 10:07AM ESTrageon I assume he married Talisa, as it certainly seems to be the way the story was going. But I agree, from the side, it did not look like her other than the dark hair. I too thought to myself, "I don't remember her nose looking anything like that."
June 4, 2012 at 10:09AM ESTSyl I don't even know what to call you, but thank you nameless commenter, that post made my day.
June 4, 2012 at 10:10AM ESTGarbageman I still would. I know me.
June 4, 2012 at 10:13AM ESTHammer Agreed. Had the same impression
June 4, 2012 at 10:18AM ESTKeith @MK They seemed to imply that Talisa was a noblewoman, but from a foreign land. She had the one scene where she questioned how to properly address noblepeople. And then the scene where she described the slave saving her brother seemed to imply she was of noble birth.
June 4, 2012 at 10:22AM ESTSyl Never mind. Apparently I should call you Tim Masterson. Your name didn't show up before for some reason.
June 4, 2012 at 10:24AM ESTMK Ok, I remember her mentioning being higher born but from the free cities, not Westeros. Then there's the fact that they married to the Seven, and not to the Old Gods, which are the northern men's gods! This is another very disappointing oversight, Robb would surely be married in the eyes of the old gods.
June 4, 2012 at 10:31AM ESTmhbazzi Im 99.9% certain he did NOT marry Talsia. The woman he married looked NOTHING like Talsia.
June 4, 2012 at 10:32AM ESTboomgoesthedynamite Then you would be 99.9% incorrect
June 4, 2012 at 10:41AM ESTLJA I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by this. During that short scene, I went from "is he marrying the Frey girl after all?" to "did they re-cast Talisa?" He seemed happy, and old man Frey & his 200 children weren't there, so I'm assuming he married Talisa; but that could *not* have been the same actress.
June 4, 2012 at 11:22AM ESTomar I agree... did not look like Talisa. I turned to my wife and said "so he's marrying the other girl afterall" and she said no, the way he's acting it must be Talisa. Glad to see others are confused as well. Naybe it's awful lighting or something, but that girl did NOT look at all like Talisa.
June 4, 2012 at 11:40AM ESTCurious to hear Allen's thoughts on this?
Hatfield That seemed pretty clearly to be Oona Chaplin to me. Maybe having just seen her in an episode of Sherlock earlier helped, but I'm surprised anyone was confused
June 4, 2012 at 11:44AM ESTmhbazzi is dumb lol @ the morons claiming he didn't marry talisa. He did. End of discussion.
June 4, 2012 at 11:45AM ESTLJA is dumb and it was clearly the same actress
June 4, 2012 at 11:47AM ESTkraigster Kings don't get married in secret ceremonies in the woods with only the septon there. That's eloping. Kings get married in grand ceremonies with lots of partying and gifts and wine!
June 4, 2012 at 11:49AM ESTNo nose knows Omar, how do you misspell a writer's name on his own blog?
June 4, 2012 at 12:07PM ESTIt's clearly Talisa, both plotwise and screenwise. Not the best profile, to be sure, but clearly her. Foreshortening does a lot for the old proboscis.
Harry Don't spoil the books please.
June 4, 2012 at 12:34PM ESTMhbazzi is dumb is Rude @MHBAZZI IS DUMB -- in the brief wedding scene, it certainly didn't look anything like the Talisa I remembered, and alot of people -- not just MHBAZZI -- were confused by her appearance and thought exactly the same thing. Stop being a jerk.
June 4, 2012 at 12:47PM ESTJP Maybe he married Jaqen.
June 4, 2012 at 1:20PM ESTvvg Maybe its not proof, but Oona Chaplin is credited in 4 episodes of season 2 according to IMDB. 'Valar Morghulis' is not one of them.
June 4, 2012 at 1:30PM EST
Lol that was definitely Talisia. As for the book comment, it's a slightly different character.
June 4, 2012 at 3:19PM ESTJamie I definitely think it was Talisa, even though I must admit, she looked decidedly "different" from a profile angle. The storyline was built for it to be only Talisa, and even if it hadn't, what little we do know about Frey is that he likes to make a big deal of occasions. All you really heard about was that he has a lot of kids, has a bridge is flakey, and enjoys lots of weddings and namesakes. I don't think he'd be too pleased with a rushed wedding in the dark, witnessed by only a priest.
June 4, 2012 at 10:24PM EST
The lighting was definitely bad, but it was her. I re watched it twice :P
June 5, 2012 at 4:51AM ESTBlahah The wedding was in secret, so it definitely was Talisa. When I first saw her in one of the previous episodes, I wasn't too impressed by her looks. She was decent, but not insanely pretty. The moment Robb had his eyes set on her even when they were a mess and amputating a soldier's leg, I get the feeling that he hasn't been seeing many ladies ever since he set out for war. And that wedding ceremony scene happened to show an angle of her that didn't look attractive at all. It was really dark and the high contrast between light and shadow made her large nose stand out more. So, yes. Despite the nose, I knew it was her from a mile away.
June 5, 2012 at 11:09AM ESTJim
June 4, 2012 at 9:55AM EST Reply to CommentAs much as I enjoy the show, I can't help but feel like, at times, the writers are just rushing to check events off a checklist of "stuff from the books that we need to deal with to advance the plot" rather than actually committing to careful storytelling.
ireneinidaho Having only 10 hours to cover a book that's more than 1000 pages (in the mass market paperback edition) is pretty much a setup for failure, in terms of explaining everything.
June 4, 2012 at 11:43AM ESTThese shortened seasons are getting ridiculous. HBO is bad enough, and now AMC is giving us two final seasons of Breaking Bad at only 8 eps each. They can call it a 16-ep final season if they want, but if we have to wait nearly a year to see the second half, it's two 8-ep seasons IMO.
ALT They are dividing the final season in two to get moar Emmys, ofc.
June 4, 2012 at 4:41PM ESTMK
June 4, 2012 at 9:56AM EST Reply to CommentI feel like this episode was disappointing, for the most part. You had some key highlights, like Jaqen changing his face, Brienne kicking ass and taking names, and the horn blowing 3 times for Walkers. I was also really excited to get a full view of what the white walkers really look like. However, the most disappointing elements to me were what stood out. The sacking of Winterfell was just terribly executed. I have a hard time believing that the Ironborn would just up and run like that while turning on Theon. These are supposed to be a hard, proud, fierce people and to just go rogue on Theon and quit like that was poorly handled. I also was very disappointed in the House of the Undying, all that build up and it just fell flat to me.
I fear that there is just too much in the books to truly translate it to the screen in 10 episodes, so I'm hopeful the expanded schedule next season allows them to go more in depth with each character.
Michael K "I was also really excited to get a full view of what the white walkers really look like"
June 4, 2012 at 9:59AM ESTI don't believe those are white walkers. I think the fast moving thing from the Season 1 opening scene was a white walker. The things that came back to life that Jon Snow killed in Season 1, are something else, related.
evolution1085 Spot on Michael K, those are the wights. The white walkers reanimate dead bodies, which is what the majority of their army actually contains.
June 4, 2012 at 10:02AM ESTGarbageman Pretty sure the things on horses weren't wights folks.
June 4, 2012 at 10:05AM ESTMK No, the guy on the horse was the white walker, the men on the ground were the wights. There was a very distinctive difference between the two.
June 4, 2012 at 10:09AM ESTboomgoesthedynamite Wights and "White Walkers" are the same thing... Zombie like creatures. The different horse riding things are "Others". They were glimpsed in the very first ep as the faster moving creature that beheaded the Nightswatchman.
June 4, 2012 at 10:48AM ESTNick Definitely wights, blue eyes, looked like zombies
June 4, 2012 at 11:07AM ESTJimBob @BOOMGOESTHEDYNAMITE: "White Walkers" = "Others". Wights = zombies.
June 4, 2012 at 11:22AM ESTZZ Either way, literarlly, scared the crap out of me. (Changing my underwear currently.)
June 4, 2012 at 11:30AM ESTbbq_hax0r MK -- I don't think they ever respected Theon. Certainly not enough to risk their lives for his. It seemed like his lieutenant (the guy with the scar) was kind of egging him on the whole time. To me it seemed predictable and fitting how Theon ended. I still feel bad for him. And I've posted my thoughts on the sacking of Winterfell a couple places if youre interested.
June 4, 2012 at 11:53AM ESTRörd @MK: I think you're making the same mistake in your assessment of the Ironborn that Theon made. Yes, they're hard people, but they're raiders, not heroes. Their practical interests prevail over idealistic ones, so they put more value on survival than on loyalty (except to strong leaders who can promise them a lot of booty) or glory in the eyes of future generations.
June 4, 2012 at 1:20PM ESTTherefore, it completely logical that they would rather trade a leader who brought them into a desperate situation for their own lives than face sure death in a hopeless battle.
That was a whitewalker army with a few Others on horses.
June 4, 2012 at 3:20PM ESTALT HBO renamed the Others as White Walkers to avoid the comparison with Lost's Others. So Others = White Walkers = First Ep = the ones on horses /and/ Wights = Zombies
June 4, 2012 at 4:46PM ESTAndrew
June 4, 2012 at 9:57AM EST Reply to CommentDid anyone else think Jon was let off the hook too easily? That whole scene was confusing and rushed.
Mike.D It made no sense to me, he killed the the one guy and they were like "welcome jon snow, here's our camp", I didn't really get that either.
June 4, 2012 at 11:36AM ESTbbq_hax0r They mentioned how the Wildlings had a huge bounty on the head of Halfhand. So, between the Halfhands antics of proclaiming him a spy and then ultimately being killed by Jon seemed to endear him to them. Not only that, they also know he had a chance to kill Ygritte (the gingy wildling) and didn't. Those are three possible strikes in his favor. Plus it would seem highly unlikely the halfhand (thats his name, right?) would sacrifice himself for Jon. Not too far fetched imo.
June 4, 2012 at 11:56AM ESTALso how about the look between Ygritte and Jon after she realizes he does have the minerals to kill. Loved it!
Every single scene halfhand was in or mentioned talked about his notoriety with the wildlings. Not to mention, Ygritte was treating Jon as her captive and gave them no reason to think anything other than he was a brother. If you notice, she looked confused, but said nothing 2 eps back when Halfhand started calling Jon a traitor. She also refrained from saying anything contrary when Jon killed halfhand, even knowing how freakin honorable and loyal Jon had been the whole time.
June 4, 2012 at 3:23PM ESTthe minister @16EpisodesPerBookPlzNoMovieNecessary
June 4, 2012 at 6:41PM ESTC-Man
June 4, 2012 at 9:58AM EST Reply to Comment"Theon gets dragged back to the Iron Islands with a bag over his head"
More likely, he gets handed off to Robb Stark in exchange for a handsome reward. Remember, Robb said all the other Iron Islanders would be granted amnesty.
Hatfield I was going to say the same thing. The text of the show leaves it deliberately ambiguous, but it seemed more likely to me than those guys knocking him out and somehow slipping past the unseen forces outside the walls
June 4, 2012 at 10:02AM ESTTok Well, I'm not with it at all, apparently, as I thought Theon had been uncermoniously/punchline-ishly killed by his own men.
June 4, 2012 at 10:14AM ESTJ. Pitts yeah, i don't think we can say for sure that he was dragged back to the iron islands. methinks he went with the northmen.
June 4, 2012 at 10:43AM ESTbrentalistair "More likely, he gets handed off to Robb Stark in exchange for a handsome reward. Remember, Robb said all the other Iron Islanders would be granted amnesty."
June 4, 2012 at 11:56AM ESTThat would make sense but it doesn't jibe with what we know which is that someone burned down Winterfell after that scene. So who was it outside the gates? It it wasn't Stark's men (why would they burn down Winterfell) then Theon wouldn't have been turned over right? That whole scenario was really badly handled and very confusing. We really have no idea what happened there.
Hatfield I agree that it was somewhat confusing, but it seemed we were meant to wonder why it went from just Luwin being attacked to the entire place.
June 4, 2012 at 12:04PM ESThodor is sexy While I'm not a huge fan of how they handled the sack of Winterfell, though it was still good bc of how fantastic Theon and Maester Luwin were, the whole point is that we have no idea what the hell happened between Theon getting whacked on the head and Winterfell being burned. It is supposed to be a mystery in the show. I'm sure it will be answered next season, and I'm nearly certain that I know what happened (having read the books), even if it went differently than in the novel.
June 4, 2012 at 12:16PM ESTthe faceless man i think the force of 500 men was instructed by bolton to turn on the starks by sacking and burning winterfell after reclaiming it as payback to catelyn and the starks for letting jaime lannister go (remember he wanted payback for jaime killing his son) bolton seemed really peeved that jaime was allowed to return safely home despite killing his son. thats the only scenario i could see as logical, even if it was basically ignored
June 4, 2012 at 2:36PM ESTBill @THE FACELESS MAN You're confusing Lord Bolton with Lord Karstark. Karstark is the bearded fellow whose son was killed. Bolton's bastard led the attack on Winterfell, but up to now, there's been no indication that Bolton would have cause to betray Robb. He may have such cause, I'm willing to give them some leeway there, but I'm more upset about how confusingly the whole thing played out. They should have just shown us what happened.
June 4, 2012 at 2:59PM EST
We're getting into book territory here. Let's not go IMDB boards :P
June 4, 2012 at 3:25PM ESTAll we know was that Theon was greatly outnumbered and betrayed by his men. We then see Winterfell burned and citizens, not soldiers dead all over the place. Luwin was, imo, purposely ambiguous to protect the boys who had been through so much lately (see his convo with Osha ending ep 8)
SlackerInc "Well, I'm not with it at all, apparently, as I thought Theon had been uncermoniously/punchline-ishly killed by his own men."
March 18, 2013 at 1:58AM ESTI thought that too. I also thought that Sansa had gone with the Hound, that Stannis had been taken prisoner or killed, and didn't get that Tyrion had been betrayed by someone on his own side. I was also confused like most people by the burning of Winterfell, and by the fact that the prostitute Cersei had mistakenly locked up as leverage over Tyrion was no longer imprisoned.
I had gotten to really love this show (watching belatedly but at accelerated pace on Blu-ray as I don't have HBO), but this episode kind of undermined some of the earlier love although it did have its moments.
shopeiv
June 4, 2012 at 9:58AM EST Reply to CommentThe bannerman at winterfell believe bran and rickon dead... I doubt bran would come out while hearing sounds of battle and waited in the crypts long enough for the bannermen to disperse
Zak
June 4, 2012 at 9:58AM EST Reply to CommentSo I am troubled by this statement. Do I, as a reader of the book, confirm that these feelings are quite mutual when reading the book and violate the rule? Or do I present this as evidence for the fact that the producers are staying true to the story and the fact that Alan feels so frustrated with Sansa is a good thing.
Really? You just did and you know it.
June 4, 2012 at 3:27PM ESTThe series shows us that Sansa has learned not to trust anyone, especially two men who have (likely) sexual interest in her and who have killed people close to her.
Zak
June 4, 2012 at 9:59AM EST Reply to CommentWrite a comment...So I am troubled by this statement. Do I, as a reader of the book, confirm that these feelings are quite mutual when reading the book and violate the rule? Or do I present this as evidence for the fact that the producers are staying true to the story and the fact that Alan feels so frustrated with Sansa is a good thing.
boomgoesthedynamite I know how ya feel... People have gotten SUPER weird abt even saying something as simple as "thats not how it happened in the book". GASP! OH NO!
June 4, 2012 at 10:50AM ESTMrDaveyHavoc because most of the time "That's not how it happened in the book" is followed by "it happened like this, and this is why it's better, because in book 4..."
June 4, 2012 at 1:15PM EST
He knows he's throwing out book info...
June 4, 2012 at 3:28PM ESTCan we please keep this nonsense to IMDB? I've read the books and it's rude as heck to spoil it for people who would rather view the show as a seperate medium.
Zak W. @CORY MCCOY What info did I throw out?
June 4, 2012 at 5:27PM ESTAll I said was that Alan's feeling regarding Sansa's decision is quite in line with my feeling at the same part of the story.
And that fact can be used as evidence for the faithfulness of the adaptation
You're telling people exactly what happened in the book, but posing it as a question to pretend you aren't.
June 4, 2012 at 6:10PM ESTYou know exactly what info you threw out because you confirmed it.
Zak W. @CORY MCCOY
June 4, 2012 at 6:36PM ESTWhat did I confirm? I really want to know because I am pretty flabbergasted by this accusation.
My only point was to highlight that Alan's feelings regarding Sansa at this moment are mirrored by the reader at the equivalent point of the story. No details of future events were explicitly stated or even hinted at.
Rather it was an attempt to point out that even when reading the books you have feelings that it appears the Producers are trying to reproduce and in this case it was well done not a required book annotation as Alan bemoaned.
TheCriticalGeek you confirmed that reading the books would have helped any.
June 4, 2012 at 7:56PM ESTSo far as the show goes, yes, there are a number of confusing bits. All of which, upon rewatching earlier episodes, and discussing them with other people no more spoiled than you, become less confusing. This series is MADE for multiple viewings.
When book readers start obsessing over some boring detail that a viewer misses, it's not book knowledge vs viewer knowledge. It's second reading "OMG, THAT'S where that part I was confused about in a later bit got forshadowed and explained". This is the bit that causes spoilerage.
Everything that is mentioned at the beginning of this article is hinted at, or mentioned, somewhere in a previous episode. I don't consider that bad tv. That's just information density.
What I consider bad tv is the soap opera pace of the stories. Don't put someone in the hour if you don't advance the story. The most glaring examples are that Dany and Jon scenes in episode 7 and 8 should have each been condensed into one episode each, and not both. Probably with Jon for episode 7 and Dany for episode 8.
TheCriticalGeek ...wouldn't..
June 4, 2012 at 7:57PM ESTDallaska Well, I wasn't at all frustrated with Sansa at this point of the story. It would be beyond idiotic of her to go with the Hound, but I won't go into details as to why here.
June 5, 2012 at 12:01PM ESTPattyren
June 4, 2012 at 9:59AM EST Reply to CommentI dont think Theon 's men will be returning him to the Iron Islands, but rather gave him over to the Stark-friendly forces that were planning to siege Winterfell. That is why Theon's men were allowed to surrender. (Robb Stark mentioned this in an earlier episode)
Garbageman But if that's the case, who put Winterfell to the torch?
June 4, 2012 at 10:07AM ESTDB Cooper I believe that point was "previously'ed," as well.
June 4, 2012 at 11:19AM ESTIreneinidaho How would they know that? Didn't someone in Winterfell say that all the ravens had been killed?
June 4, 2012 at 11:48AM ESTbbq_hax0r When you siege a city its not hard to get a message to those inside (think 'hey, surrender, lol?')
June 4, 2012 at 11:59AM ESTI think the sacking of Winterfell was something we were supposed to speculate on and we'll find out next season. It would have been a good climax to the season but for 2 other better climaxes (Danys dragons going savage and teh white walkers marching on Fist of the First Men).
Luwin told Theon at the beginning of the ep that he had killed all of the ravens.
June 4, 2012 at 3:30PM ESTIMO, Luw left it vague in order to protect the boys. Look at his convo with Osha two eps back. They were already watching their grandfather, and only father figure left, die. They didn't need the added burden of whoever sacked Winterfell. It would be hard either way because it's a betrayal no matter how it's cut.
eeggs
June 4, 2012 at 9:59AM EST Reply to CommentAlan, I, too, was totally confused by how Stannis and Melisandre got back to his keep. Thanks for clearing that up. So, we're obviously heading towards Dany and her dragons taking on the White Walkers, because only fire can kill them, right? Man am I going to miss this show.
Jamie yeah, I'm a little worried about the dragons becoming a handy deus ex machina. But to be fair, I also had that worry with the direwolves (I thought Ghost would magically reappear and chase down Ygritte as she ran away, for example) and that has proven to be untrue at this point.
June 4, 2012 at 10:15AM ESTIn other news, where the hell did Ghost actually go. (don't answer that._
sgt. buttface Fire kills the wights, not the white walkers.
June 4, 2012 at 12:18PM EST
Sgt, that's a book spoiler....
June 4, 2012 at 3:34PM ESTWe've only seen one Other (white walkers for the sake of the show) and that was the 1st ep.
As for Stannis, I thought it was fairly obvious. He seemed to realize those weren't guards because he didn't try to kill them while they were fighting right next to him. Seriously, watch the scene before it. One is already up there with him fighting and then he just screams no as they pull him away.
Bill @CORY MCCOY John killed a wight with fire when he was defending Commander Mormont. It's well established within the universe of the show that fire kills wights. SGT. BUTTFACE did not spoil anything, so ease up a bit.
June 4, 2012 at 3:50PM EST
Wights are not the same as others and he's putting it out there that they can't be killed the same. That's a spoiler and it's childish.
June 4, 2012 at 6:11PM ESTRolloTomasi Spoiler or not, I'd like to know which one is worth more XP.
June 4, 2012 at 11:54PM ESTPanda @Bill, we have no idea up till this point that fire cannot kill a white walker, so that is in fact a book spoiler. McCoy is right and doesn't need to ease up at all
June 5, 2012 at 10:52AM ESTBill My impression is that he was merely pointing out that we have not seen white walkers as being vulnerable to fire. And that's true. We haven't. We have seen wights succumb to fire, but they are not the same thing, so it would be wrong to assume that what affects one should affect the other in the same way. That's not a spoiler. That's simply him cautioning against jumping to conclusions. I told CORY to ease up because sometimes overzealous spoiler policing can turn otherwise innocent comments into spoilers.
June 5, 2012 at 3:55PM ESTEeggs I wasn't aware there was a difference between Wights and White Walkers. I assumed that zombie dude John Snow killed was a White Walker. I don't think the show made it clear there was a difference. Was there an obvious point it did? I assumed the White Walkers created more White Walkers from the dead.
June 7, 2012 at 3:12AM ESTI agree that Sgt's message was a spoiler, but I don't think it was malicious. Cory's right though, the show has given us (or me at least) no way of knowing fire doesn't kill the White Walkers so maybe a little more caution in the future.
D4P
June 4, 2012 at 10:00AM EST Reply to Comment"all the warm feelings I had for Dany in season 1 after she spent most of this season being petulant and yelling about her dragons"
Yes yes yes. I've been complaining to my wife all along about how annoying the Khaleesi character came to be, and I'm glad someone else feels the same way.
On an unrelated note, is there any legitimate explanation for why the White Walker (apparently) didn't kill Sam...?
KC I wondered that too. Maybe because he wasn't a threat at all?
June 4, 2012 at 10:11AM ESTKS I thought they didn't kill sam because he had those ancient arrows that he found in the snow? Maybe that kept them away from him?
June 4, 2012 at 10:26AM ESTblackcoffee I thought they dropped that bag when the 3 horn blasts sounded.
June 4, 2012 at 10:54AM ESTjimmer98 Next year may pick up right where we left Sam and he still may be attacked.
June 4, 2012 at 3:33PM EST
Agreed, we see the Walker look at him then look away and scream as the ep cuts back to the army. Dramatic effect and what not.
June 4, 2012 at 3:35PM ESTAlso, the arrows do seem to be the mirror image of the Walkers spear.
Grifter
June 4, 2012 at 10:03AM EST Reply to CommentAlan, I think Theon was being dragged to the 500 soldiers outside Winterfell, instead of the Iron Islands. His men are treacherous enough to do so, and given that, word of the deal Robb was offering probably got to them, aswell as them really not knowing any way out of Winterfell where they wouldn't be detected, I believe hints to that.
I didn't much enjoy much of the finale. Having read some of the books, I enjoyed seeing Jaqen doing his face trick (I was truly eager and almost believe they weren't going to show us that). Other than that, it was mostly enjoying Tyrion scenes.
It's ironic (to me) that you mention Lost, because Lost had quite a lot of mystery going on, and this show, has so far neglected (or almost entirely) some of the bigger mysteries from what I've read so far in the books and that is all I'll say.
In any case, I think the showrunners are still struggling a bit with structure in the show. If only they had a few more eps to help with each season. Hopefully, HBO gets a little more generous for next season.
Garbageman I believe the difficulty in making more than 10 owes more to the commitment from cast and crew needed than it does HBO. Pretty sure the show runners have stated they'd find it very difficult to make more than 10 a year due to the scope of the series. Think about it. It takes a 2 hour movie almost a year in production. This is cinema quality tv. Stands to reason it's difficult to get more than 10 produced in a year.
June 4, 2012 at 10:21AM ESTTim Garbageman is correct. Benioff was asked that in an interview and said specifically that it's not budgetary restraints, but time restraints, that limits them to 10 per season.
June 4, 2012 at 11:20AM ESTGrifter Ok. Thank you for the correction. It still doesn't change the fact that they are struggling with the structure of the series.
June 4, 2012 at 1:30PM ESTIf this continues, they're probably going to have to make a decision regarding throwing away several (more) elements of the books and just try to make it all flow naturally in a tv perspective.
I admit, I have been slightly spoiled by the books I've read so far.
Yet, there's a few potential gamechanging elements in the books that barely got a whisper in the show. I get that not everything can make it to the show, but...well, I'll just have to trust their judgement and hope for the best.
darthzombie Well it might help that next season is widely reported as going to tell about half of book three(and that half is almost as long as the first book)....
June 4, 2012 at 3:11PM EST
Grifter, we know that the book relies heavily on flashbacks and the show doesn't. Most of the scenes I assume you're referring to would mean they'd need to change the format of the show for it to make sense from the character's POV and the audience's.
June 4, 2012 at 3:36PM ESTGrifter @Cory - Yes and no.
June 4, 2012 at 5:32PM ESTYes. The book relies on several flashbacks. But it also has characters simply talking about it all to others. Just simple word of mouth would do it.
The format really doesn’t need to be changed (and a case could be made that format/structure were all but thrown out the window this season) just to introduce several elements that will possibly end up as game changers. There’s no need to go about it in flashbacks.
Dany, had her particular set of “visions” last night. Just not in their entirety and variety as in the books. Several hints were thrown by word of mouth, from several characters, in the show as they have in the books. The exception is that in the show, they’re mostly underdeveloped.
We had, I believe...two “whispers” from Ned Stark in season one of...”Promise me, Ned”. And now an entire season has passed where there’s not even a passing mention of what that might be about and what it possibly entails. Admittedly, I had forgotten about it, until I started reading the books.
I love the show, and I am greatly enjoying the books, don’t get me wrong. I want them to succeed on all levels...but I believe they (show runners) are trying to cater to as much as they can...but being too constricted, too crammed, and it might end up hurting the show in the long run.
The goal of “one book = one season” might not be the best idea, anymore.
In any case, if those mysteries end up being the “bomb” that people, expect them to be, that might just end up being thrown out of nowhere in the show, due to lack of development from early stages.
If they’re not, then it was GRRM, screwing with the readers and I am sure the internet will break in half. ;)
Cheers!
They're splitting the next into two seasons thankfully. The whispers you're referring to are from the hallucinations right?
June 4, 2012 at 6:14PM ESTIm just saying, they didn't set it up at all to do Dany's scene as it was in the book. It'd probably work better as a dream because that would give them leeway to explain it to the audience. It's a scene the tv only people definitely wouldn't get.
the minister EW had a good interview w/ D or W (can't remember which) saying that the season per book thing is toast.
June 4, 2012 at 6:49PM ESTAs to whether they will need to truncate things even so, they sure as frak will. This shall, I think, become a clear win instead of an ambiguous one.
Grifter Yes...but it wasn't just when Ned was hallucinating that he said "Promise me, Ned" in the show.
June 5, 2012 at 11:12AM ESTGreat news on the whole a book per season being scrapped. The show's pacing will improve as a result, certainly!
O I dont remember anything about whispers of "Promise me, Ned." Can someone refresh my memory? If that did happen I must have missed it.
June 5, 2012 at 4:05PM ESTdarthzombie @O it is a phrase Ned repeated throughout his chapters in the first book and goes back to the Tower of Joy and his dead sister and is prominently used in a lot of fan theories about the book series.
June 5, 2012 at 4:55PM ESTrick
June 4, 2012 at 10:04AM EST Reply to Commentits OK, it wasn't really warlock Dean Pelton who died, but a Chang employed lookalike
Matthew NO! Not Fake Moby Warlock!
June 4, 2012 at 10:08AM ESTGarbageman NO COMMUNITY SPOILERS! Haha
June 4, 2012 at 10:08AM ESTlztouchthedream Garbageman, if you haven't read the Song of Jeff and Britta books, you should probably just skip over this thread.
June 4, 2012 at 10:47AM ESTadama1843 So then were those Cougar Town cast members hanging from the walls of Winterfell?
June 4, 2012 at 10:47AM ESTJP I thought I saw Ser Punchkicker of Greendale.
June 4, 2012 at 1:29PM EST
@LZTOUCH you win the internet
June 4, 2012 at 2:52PM ESTdarthzombie This is my favorite comment thread ever, so much lols...
June 4, 2012 at 3:12PM EST
A Warlockelganger?
June 4, 2012 at 3:37PM ESTKC
June 4, 2012 at 10:06AM EST Reply to CommentAbout Theon ... A few episodes earlier, Robb told whoever was heading to Winterfell to offer the Iron Islands soldiers a deal: They can all leave and go home if they turn over Theon (I only remembered this because they showed it in the "Previously on" clips before the finale began).
So when they knocked him out and put a bag over his head, I assumed they were turning him over to the bannerman and would then be heading home themselves. Did anyone else understand it that way?
But that still doesn't explain why Winterfell was burned when Bran, Rickon, etc, emerged.
Keith That scenario with Theon is exactly how I evaluated what happened. I'm guessing the 500 surrounding the castle (led by a bastard of whatever lord was advising Robb) might have their own bone to pick. Bastards in Westeros are inherently untrustworthy, or at least that's what we have been led to believe.
June 4, 2012 at 10:16AM ESTjames @keith thats how i saw it as well. Bolton is very unhappy that Jaime lannister was let go by catelyn despite killing his son, so perhaps as a form of payback, they seized theon (knowing how badly robb wants to confront/kill him personally) and sacked the city.
June 4, 2012 at 2:47PM ESTthe next step could be trying to organize a prisoner trade between jaime-theon or maybe boltons killed the iron islanders and blame the sacking on the islanders, further pitting the greyjoys vs the starks. it was all very unclear but those are just some possible scenarios i drummed up after re-watching.
Bill @James Jamie did not kill Bolton's son. He killed Lord Karstark's son.
June 4, 2012 at 3:06PM EST
Yup, it was definitely Karstack because he was standing next to Bolton who suggested sending his son.
June 4, 2012 at 3:38PM ESTThe show relies heavily on the audience paying attention to even little things, for better or worse.
johncrafty
June 4, 2012 at 10:07AM EST Reply to CommentAlan, thanks for your great reviews. Isn't it ok when you miss subtle things in this show (like Hound and fire)? Doesn't that make rewatching shows like this enjoyable. I missed so much the first time i watched the Wire, and i don't blame David Simon or wish I understood that world more coming into the show. It made rewatching the Wire fun and, I picked up on things i had missed in the first watch. I miss all sorts of things when I watch mad men (that is why I read people like you).
Isn't it also possible that the showrunners want to leave what happened to Winterfell and to Theon a mystery for season 3? The children seemed as confused as you were about that.
Levi Benjamin I agree JohnCrafty. I, like Alan, was very confused during certain parts of this episode. But since the books are told only from certain points of view, we maybe were supposed to be left confused as to why Winterfell is on fire, and what happened to Theon exactly.
June 4, 2012 at 11:17AM ESTHowever it's hard to argue they handled Stannis's retreat last week too ambigiously. I felt exactly the same as Alan, wondering what magic was allowing him to talk to Melisandre from a King's Landing Dungeon.
My moments of confusion, however, don't make me enjoy this show any less, and will make repeated viewings even more precious.
Sometimes I forget just how confused I was at the first few episodes of Season 1, before I knew the characters. After re-watching many of those, I found my level of enjoyment with the show rise immensely.
bbq_hax0r I just assumed he was able to do a strategic retreat (I noticed last week he was being held back by his own men who climbed up the ladder after him) and assumed we'd either see him this week being captured or escaping. Well they cut forward and he was back at Dragons Reach. My only thing is, what does this mean for the poor old Onion Knight. Obviously some time has passed Stannis to escape and Davos is still AWOL. Shucks, I really liked him.
June 4, 2012 at 12:04PM ESTBill Dragonstone, not Dragons Reach, is Stannis's stronghold. I'm guessing you play Skyrim.
June 4, 2012 at 12:32PM ESTbbq_hax0r Wait Stannis isn't the Jarl of Whiterun anymore? Ha!
June 4, 2012 at 12:38PM ESTthe minister @Bill: "I used to be the King's Hand, before I took a longsword in the face."
June 4, 2012 at 6:53PM ESTTheCriticalGeek If it wasn't clear where he was, I blame the directors of scenes in that room for not opening with an overhead shot of the table panning to the characters. The table should have clearly marked where they were.
June 4, 2012 at 8:10PM ESTAlso, Harrenhall and Pike should NOT have shown up, and Dragonstone should have in the opening credits. That's just an outright screwup. There's no excuse for that.
JMRII The Hound being afraid of the fire was subtle but well-alluded to, and going back and watching it a second time you can easily pick up on it as his POV is people burning, etc. Plus they mentioned earlier how his face was burned by his brother.
June 5, 2012 at 12:10PM ESTThe Stannis thing is a different deal- they just jacked that up by not being clear that he was being dragged off by his own men, and it made that scene hard to watch because you were trying to figure out if it was a dream, apparition, etc. Just poor directing/story-telling by the show runners on that one.
Stormshadow4life
June 4, 2012 at 10:07AM EST Reply to CommentLoved the episode, especially the Dany stuff! The White Walker army was great! Tyrian's scenes were great (even though it made me quite angry).
The only issue you had that I agreed with is the Theon stuff. What happened after they bagged him? Why/how was Winterfell burned? i don't get it
the minister Vis a vis Winterfell, you are not supposed to, so enjoy the cliffhanger.
June 4, 2012 at 6:54PM ESTangel_de_la_muerte
June 4, 2012 at 10:08AM EST Reply to CommentI don't think Then was being dragged to the iron islands...wasn't there a reward offered for his men to turn him in and they'd be allowed to leave? I'd wager he will be a prisoner again (and that he won't be treated as kindly as he was by the stark family).
Jared K
June 4, 2012 at 10:08AM EST Reply to CommentTheon isn't being dragged back to the Iron Islands. Back in Episode 8 ("The Prince of Winterfell"), Robb instructed Lord Roose Bolton to tell his bastard son that any Iron Islanders who laid down their arms would be spared and allowed to return home - with the exception of Theon Greyjoy. Theon getting knocked out and bagged was a case of the Iron Islanders selling Theon to the Boltons in order to secure their own safe passage home. Whether or not the Bastard of Bolton will actually honor that agreement is open for interpretation. Given what little we know of the Boltons (and their love for flaying their captives), I'm extremely skeptical.
So Theon is now a captive of the northern forces, who I imagine will not be treating him kindly. I can sympathize if the show didn't make that explicitly clear, but it WAS set up within the context of the show. As for who ultimately burned Winterfell, that's another story.
aforkosh And the fact that they included that scene in the pre-episode recap provides evidence for this view.
June 4, 2012 at 12:19PM ESTBard Jared, just admit that you read the books.
June 4, 2012 at 2:01PM ESTthe minister Yeah, Lord Varys you ain't, Jared.
June 4, 2012 at 6:55PM ESTLiz
June 4, 2012 at 10:10AM EST Reply to CommentNot a book reader, but I wasn't bothered by the seeming missing information about what happened with Theon at Winterfell. I figured that we were going to see Theon next season, and we'd be filled in then.
I could see how the structure of that storyline could be somewhat unsatisfying (as in, it's not important enough information that it's worth holding on to until next season), but it didn't occur to me that we were never going to find out exactly what happened.
Now I'm wondering if I was giving the show too much credit...
Matt_H I don't think you're giving the show too much credit. I had the same reaction. Its meant to be a cliff-hanger of sorts, I think.
June 4, 2012 at 11:32AM ESTMrDaveyHavoc If it was meant to be a cliff hanger, why didn't the boys express wonder? They should have said "WHO DID THIS?" rather than "THEY BURNED EVERYTHING!"
June 4, 2012 at 2:01PM ESTdezbot They're in shock. Saying, "They burned everything!" perfectly encapsulates that.
June 5, 2012 at 6:57PM ESTdexxis79
June 4, 2012 at 10:10AM EST Reply to CommentI'm looking forward to season 3 but not as much as i was to this season. I read book 1 after last season and will read book 2 this summer. The TV show is better
donkeys are people too Without going into any spoilers, you should be more excited. Book 3, while they are splitting it into 2 seasons, is BY FAR the best of any of the 5 books in the series so far. Like none of the others even come remotely close.
June 4, 2012 at 12:29PM ESTcarcin The show is great, but, no, not even close to better than the books....
June 4, 2012 at 12:48PM ESTdarthzombie I would say book 1 and the first season of the TV show are comparable. I liked the book better but I experienced it first which could color my opinion. While the second book is head and shoulders above the second season and it is one of my least favorite of the series. Book 3 is where it is at though, so effing good makes the whole thing worthwhile...
June 4, 2012 at 3:19PM ESTJamie
June 4, 2012 at 10:10AM EST Reply to CommentAlan, as is usually the case, I totally agree with you on the difference and strength in storytelling when it comes to Theon and Tyrion vs. other characters like Jon Snow. The scene with Maester Luwin and Theon was very effective because you knew and could trace exactly where Theon had come from and where he was inevitably going.
In stark contrast, Stannis seemingly had an existential breakdown where he questioned everything he'd done and was so remorseful about killing his brother, it was as if he had been under a spell of power lust during that time and it had now been violently ripped away. But that scene wasn't emotive because the only real thing we know about Stannis and his backstory has been through many people talking about how cold he is many, many times.
Oh and I don't think Theon is going back to the Iron Islands, I'm fairly certain his men handed him over to Rob's ancillary forces on the basis that the rest of them could go back to the Iron Islands untouched if they handed over Theon.
bbq_hax0r I really enjoyed Stannis this season (one of my favorites). When he nearly choked out Melisandre -- badass. Something about his strict rigidness and sticking to honor/duty really attracted me in this world. I'm now really concerned he might be doing a 180 and giving it all up for a chance at power.
June 4, 2012 at 12:09PM ESTIt was like he tried doing it his way, on the battlefield, with duty and honor and had to do what honor guided him to do. Now, and remember a couple episodes back, Davos said people fear that the Red Priest whispers into his ear and he obeys, well that's what happened with that last scene with him and her, no? She literally whispered in his ear and he obeyed.
I fear he might give up and change his entire character for a chance at the Iron Throne, or the promise of it. That'll be sad to watch but could make an interesting subplot.
MrDaveyHavoc To me, his grab for the throne IS his being honor-bound, as the law states the throne is his.
June 4, 2012 at 2:07PM ESTCee I honestly don't get Stannis's insistence that that's the law. By LAW, Vicerys (and now Dany) should be ruling. Their father was the last King, and they were in line after their older brother and his children, all of whom were killed. Robert usurped the throne--although you could make a legal argument that he became the rightful ruler by right of conquest (which was how Henry VII assumed the throne in 1485). Or, if you want to get very technical, notwithstanding Joffrey, Tommen & Myrcella's actual parentage, they were in fact borne within wedlock and Robert is officially their father, and he acknowledged himself as such. That's the law. The real idea, which Stannis is resisting because it undermines his claim, that after a certain point, power makes its own rules. Joffrey is king as long as the people want him to be king, or as long as he has an army to back it up. If Stannis's army, or Robb's army or Dany's dragons, can rewrite history, that's what will happen. Stannis's tone-deaf insistence on his "rights" isn't going to win the day, especially since he had his brother murdered to back it up.
June 15, 2012 at 1:10PM ESTguest If only medieval memories went back that far, Cee. The King is who the people recognize as the King. Stannis' assertion is that Joff is not valid due to his parentage. His war is fought on two fronts- in the battlefield with swords and arrows, and in the minds of the populace. If the people are convinced that Joff is not a rightful King, he aims to be the one they view as rightful, preying on their short memories coupled with the fact that Dany is a world away - not to mention the little overlooked fact that she is female.
June 18, 2012 at 1:35PM ESTchris
June 4, 2012 at 10:12AM EST Reply to CommentThe whole time Mags is professing her love for Joffery I'm yelling "don't do it! He's crazy!" Big mistake.
valerio Mags is not Sansa.
June 4, 2012 at 10:38AM ESTblackcoffee In fairness, Mags is crazy too.
June 4, 2012 at 11:02AM ESTjimmer98 She wants power not him. I think she can do a better job of handling him than Sansa ever could. Mind you Sansa is really growing into her own. Still a little nieve but not as much as a push over.
June 4, 2012 at 11:23AM ESTTim Yes, it was made pretty clear that she's completely aware of the Game, where Sansa, and the Starks in general, were almost completely ignorant.
June 4, 2012 at 11:25AM ESTPod Yes, but how much is awareness of the Game going to help when he's coming at you with an antler-headed club?
June 4, 2012 at 11:49AM ESTLJA Margery (or however it is spelled) seems pretty calculating to me. I think she's going to handle Joffrey just fine. But I'm REALLY looking forward to her interactions with Cersei. I'm guessing Cersei doesn't have the same control and authority over this girl as she did Sansa, a situation the Queen Regent will most likely find very frustrating. (This all being pure speculation, I haven't read the books.)
June 4, 2012 at 11:58AM ESTblackcoffee Quincy I was just guessing about Mags...not a spoiler.
June 4, 2012 at 2:42PM ESTthe minister @blackcoffee: sometimes there's a lot to be said for typecasting (Mags was Anne Bolyn on The Tudors. This is not a recommendation for The Tudors, btw. It was ultra-"meh.") .
June 4, 2012 at 7:00PM ESTTypecasting is a kind of shorthand & lord knows this show needs all the shorthand it can scribble.
sognodisonno Also, Mags has a brother who's renowned as a fighter (and is not off fighting a war against Joffrey), so she has a little more nearby protection likely to ensure better treatment than Sansa's.
June 6, 2012 at 6:53PM ESTasarael
June 4, 2012 at 10:13AM EST Reply to CommentThe Dany storyline was idiotic. What was the warlock's plan? Steal her draons and then tell her EXACTLY where they are, and then forgetting that dragons BREATHE FIRE? Dumb. (Not necessarily a book purist, but the show's version of the House of Undying created this whole warlock-stealing-dragons plot, and it ended up having Scooby Doo levels of criminal competence).
mmcb105 Actually their plan was to keep Dany imprisoned as close to the dragons as possible. The warlock says that his own powers are stronger around the dragons and the dragons are stronger when their "mother" is near.
June 4, 2012 at 10:26AM ESTAlso, we were shown earlier in the season that the dragons had not quite developed their fire breathing capabilities while already in Qarth, I believe they were trying the burn some fruit rather pathetically. So its not a stretch that the warlocks would probably have heard that info and believed the dragons weren't yet a threat.
Not saying the warlocks were smart, but they had thought their plan through a little more than you are suggesting.
Al It's funny because Dany wants to rule Westeros so badly that she doesn't realize she could own all of Qarth now, based on the fact that the whole council of 13 is dead and she has some badass bodyguards (the dragons). She could rule the best city that ever was or will be, save Westeros for the other warring clans.
June 4, 2012 at 10:53AM ESTjimmer98 And he would have gotten away with it too, if it was`nt for those meddeling fire breathing kids!!!
June 4, 2012 at 11:24AM ESTthe minister Turns out Mister Hodor was behind it all!
June 4, 2012 at 7:03PM ESTMike
June 4, 2012 at 10:14AM EST Reply to CommentAfter the conclusion of season two, I can’t help but feel that season one was stronger. Despite the introduction of a seemingly endless cast of characters, I may be misremembering but, I felt each episode and the season as a whole had better structure. Each episode itself seemed to be a chapter that would end in dramatic fashion. As Alan pointed out, this season seemed to be more transitory, setting the stage for the next season (which I am looking forward to). Not having read the books I also seemed lost at points and then playing catch up. As somebody else pointed out – maybe an additional couple of episodes would have helped the pacing of the story at times as opposed to feeling rushed. Otherwise, I loved seeing Theon getting cracked on the head. This is still some of the best stuff on TV.
LJA Co-sign.
June 4, 2012 at 12:17PM ESTNot to say I didn't enjoy season two, I have enjoyed it tremendously and have been obsessed with trying to predict what would come next and will certainly miss the show the next 10 months. But after a recent re-watch of season one, it was very clear how much tighter the show was then and how meandering it was this season.
Not only did I find it aimless, there were just creative misses along the way. Renly's death should have felt like a much bigger deal, but since we hardly knew him, it felt very perfunctory. Why waste a scene on that pirate early in the season (Salandor Saar?) when he wasn't featured in Blackwater? Even Stannis' early scenes were problematic for me. It wasn't until his scene on the ship with Davos that I started to find the character the least bit interesting, and then I was almost cheering for him when I saw how badass he was @ Blackwater (while still cheering for Tyrion), but why wasn't he written better early on? And worst of all, I've completely lost interest in the goings-on at the Wall and points north.
All that said, I *do* love the show. Maybe the sheer volume of characters and locations makes it impossible to match the greatness of season one, but after the recent rewatch, I was kind of disappointed in the totality of season two.
carcin >>>"Why waste a scene on that pirate early in the season (Salandor Saar?) when he wasn't featured in Blackwater?"
June 4, 2012 at 12:54PM ESTYes, why....
There couldn't possibly be, say, 2000 forthcoming pages of written material in which bit characters might re-aappear....
Mike That certainly may be the case but I am approaching the show as someone that has never read the books. I can live with loose ends in story line (whatever did happen to the Czechoslovakian interior decorator that Christopher and Paulie Walnuts lost in the woods...?) but I think the point of the pirate scene is valid in terms of the decisions that are made with rspect to what is necessary information to convey to advance the various storylines and what isn't.... I don't know what role this pirate might play in future episodes based on what is in the books (and obviously I don't care to know in advance) but it is one of those added bits that tend to add to the disjointed nature of parts of the season. Maybe the introduction of the pirate was necessary or critical - but when he is brought back in to the picture down the road, as though I already know him, I might be just as lost. I agree with Alan, I think the show needs to be judged based on the assumption that the viewer doesn't have the background available through the books....
June 4, 2012 at 1:15PM ESTRörd I think the point of the Salladhor Saan scene wasn't Salladhor Saan `himself at all. It was rather meant to establish how important Davos is for Stannis by getting him a significant portion of his fleet.
June 4, 2012 at 1:55PM ESTLJA @Carcin "Yes, why...," you ask.
June 4, 2012 at 2:13PM ESTBecause the context of his introduction was entirely based on his participation at Blackwater. His lack of showing there leaves questions. Why wasn't he there? Was he there and completely ineffectual? Was he there and blown up by wildfire? If he wasn't going to be included at Blackwater, why not introduce him in a more generic fashion rather than have him boast how he was going to take the city and eff the blonde queen? I thought it was a bizarre creative choice by the writers to leave that hole.
Rollie
June 4, 2012 at 10:19AM EST Reply to CommentAs someone who has not read the books, the only thing I was confused about from that list you rattled off was the sacking of Winterfell. That scene was written poorly. Hard to blame the writers for the rest.
I liked the episode quite a bit, and even though much less happened this season than last, I liked it more because at least half the new characters I loved. (Brianne, Jaqen, Theon's sister etc)
Zak W. I think that is suppose to be a mysterious "what!?" for next year
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