Review: 'The Walking Dead' - 'Walk With Me': Good fences make good neighbors
Andrea meets David Morrisey as the Governor
David Morrissey as the Governor on "The Walking Dead."
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A review of tonight's "The Walking Dead" coming up just as soon as we get a show of hands...
I try not to talk about "The Walking Dead" comics all that much in these reviews. As I say in the usual spoiler disclaimer below, the goal here is to treat the TV show as a TV show, rather than getting into a constant loop of compare-and-contrast with what Robert Kirkman did on his own. But I will say that I stopped reading the comic not long after it introduced the character that TV audiences got to meet tonight — mainly so I can also say that I may ultimately have a different reaction to this version of the Governor than I did on the page.
Glen Mazzara, Kirkman and company have made plenty of changes to the story and characterizations from the comics, and they'll continue to do so. But beyond that, the show has the advantage of whatever the actors bring to these characters. Andrew Lincoln as Rick is, to me, more compelling than the Rick of the comics to this point, and our first glimpse of David Morrissey as the Governor suggests this may be a more complicated character than the one who was the tipping point for my desire to stop reading.
I knew going in that Andrea's host was a bad guy(*), and the idea that he's working with Merle — whom we last saw in a non-dream state as a hateful redneck lunatic — is a trouble sign. At the same time, you can see the appeal of Woodbury to Andrea, and to the other residents we've met so far, and you can understand why the locals look to the Governor as a leader. Nuance in a villain is always welcome, particularly as we're first getting to know him. As written, and as played by Morrissey, this is a guy I'm interested to watch, and one who was able to carry an episode that didn't once feature a glimpse of Rick, Lori and the rest of the gang at the prison. (Fair play, I guess, after Andrea and her friend were MIA last week.)
For that matter, good on the writers for dramatically reshaping Merle, under the guise of the Governor forcing him to calm the hell down or take a hike. Michael Rooker is among the better actors to appear on the show to date, but even he couldn't do anything with the character he had to play back in season 1. This is a character who's still very obviously dangerous, but no longer an overheated caricature, and he provides a nice contrast to Dallas Roberts (late of AMC's "Rubicon") as the Governor's tea-brewing scientist pal.
My one major issue with "Walk With Me" has to do with Andrea's traveling companion Michonne. The time jump forward between seasons was tremendously helpful in showing the evolution of Rick's group, but only because we knew who they were and what they were like when last we saw them months earlier. The contrast in seeing how well the group works together, in seeing Carol become more assertive, Carl treated as more than just a kid, etc., was possible because they aren't strangers. We met Andrea's friend for a half-second or so in the season 2 finale, but we're basically starting from scratch here with her and with this friendship. Andrea talking about what a mystery her friend has been all these months covers for some of that, but it still feels like important information is missing from us — or, at least, from those who haven't read the comics (assuming she'll be written close to how she was there going forward). Her suspicions about the Governor are less useful given how little we know about her coming into this episode.
But overall, "Walk With Me" was another tense, solid outing for what, in the early stages, is shaping up to be the most consistent season so far.
Once again, let me remind you again of this blog's No Spoiler rule and how it applies to this show, as I've had to delete a bunch of comments the last few weeks that violated it. Basic things to remember before commenting:
1. No talking about the previews for the next episode.
2. No talking about anything else you know about upcoming episodes from other sources — and, yes, that includes anything Mazzara and Kirkman have said in interviews.
3. No talking about anything that's happened in the comic that hasn't happened in the TV show yet. As with "Game of Thrones," the goal is to treat "The Walking Dead" TV show as exactly that, and not as an excuse for endless comparisons with the comics. If you want to talk about the comics, feel free to start up a discussion thread on our message boards.
With that in mind, what did everybody else think?
Alan Sepinwall may be reached at sepinwall@hitfix.com
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Next 207 CommentsLucas
October 28, 2012 at 10:05PM EST Reply to CommentWhat the hell was that wall of heads the Governor was looking at at the end?
BrettPoker They were the writers from seasons 1 - 3.
October 28, 2012 at 10:10PM ESTKevin I got a very "Heart of Darkness" vibe from the whole thing with the way that Kurtz used to collect the skulls
October 28, 2012 at 10:23PM ESTDonBoy Darkest Futurama episode EVER.
October 28, 2012 at 10:25PM ESTadama1843 His version of television talking heads.
October 28, 2012 at 10:28PM ESTgoofus i assumed the heads were related to the questions asked to andrea earlier. does anything of the pre-zombie person survive. is there an echo remaining in the brain? maybe he is keeping the heads alive because he thinks there is still something there from before. how useful that would be without a body who knows.
October 29, 2012 at 12:20AM ESTBrettPoker It seems to me that the heads are just trophies/mementos. Pretty sure they aren't alive.
October 29, 2012 at 12:31AM ESTBrian You can see the top one is the pilot, and they are alive, you can see some eyes and mouths moving.
October 29, 2012 at 1:02AM ESTbelikemike Agree with Brian. Top one definitely looked like the pilot. That wouldn't shock me after what he had done to his military group.
October 29, 2012 at 1:22AM ESTdougs What they make the tea from.
October 29, 2012 at 8:43AM ESTGarySF Top one was def the pilot. I think he's using them for some kind of experiment (see his earlier conversation with the black ninja). Maybe even a rudimentary quest to figure out how the disease works or how to "rehab" a zombie."
October 29, 2012 at 9:52AM ESTJonDee I think it's sheer malice, and stems from the belief mentioned during the show that some of the original person persists in the reanimated body. Each head belongs to a victim The Governor has murdered, and he enjoys having them there so he can gloat. It's the ultimate power trip: "I killed you, and now you have to live on as my prisoner and acknowledge me." A kind of ongoing torture for whatever is left of his victims' minds.
October 29, 2012 at 10:03AM ESTMark in Omaha I didn't make the connection that it was the pilot for sure, until I watched the Talking Dead segment. On the bottom left of his weird aquarium setup, were those two Michon's pets? Gotta think they are more than trophys, gotta be some weird science experiment. Guy is definetly twisted. Great episode, kept me interested the entire hour with less gore than the first two episodes this season.
October 29, 2012 at 1:26PM ESTjan Yes, they were Michonne's pets, and you could tell the top one was the pilot because of the bandage--or whatever it was--on the right side of his face. Not sure about the others, though.
October 30, 2012 at 1:15AM ESTFroide Is it possible that Mrs. Guv and Guv, Jr. zombified and are on the wall, too?
November 3, 2012 at 11:27AM ESTTed
October 28, 2012 at 10:07PM EST Reply to CommentAfter two of the best episodes the Walking Dead has done, this one sure did take a turn for the stupid. I know nothing about the comics, but I can't imagine this Governor story line or the Michonne character are going to be any good after watching that.
melinda Tonight is the first time I've ever watched an episode of The Walking Dead and couldn't wait for it to be OVER! I was absolutely bored to tears. After the slam-bang first two episodes, we get this snoozefest.
October 28, 2012 at 10:23PM ESTAndy You'll be suprised. This was a much needed introduction episode to things that'll come. I mean we can't always expect every episode to have the same intensity as the previous two. I'm actually relieved that the terrible writing from last season has been mostly corrected.
October 28, 2012 at 10:26PM ESTKeynote Dude you are going to regret this entire post. Did you and I watch different episodes? The gov and mich. both have so much depth to their characters. I was creeped the f*** out at the end of the episode.
October 28, 2012 at 10:29PM ESTBrettPoker I agree with Keynote. I thought they introduced and set up both Michonne and The Governor nicely. I lot of hints and foreshadowing in their demeanor and actions for future episodes to come.
October 28, 2012 at 10:41PM ESTSlackerInc I didn't like it either. I think this is one of the first times I got a feeling of the show being way too "comic book-y". (And I say that, mind you, as someone who seriously collected comics as a kid, once owning X-Men 94, Conan 1, etc.) I loved the Avengers movie, but I don't want this show to be comic-esque, especially not this sort of pseudo-dark (but ultimately cringe-inducingly cheesy) way that comics can get, especially when they are presented with unearned gravitas as "graphic novels".
October 29, 2012 at 12:35AM ESTMichonne just generally as a character reeks of this kind of vibe, with her sword and her constant glare (bad acting or bad directing, not sure which).
And "The Governor" being utterly unwilling to say his name? Puh-leeze. Why not just give a fake name if you don't want to give your real one? "It's Mike Anderson, if you must know." Also, I rolled my eyes way back into my head at how they presented that whole "twist" with them ambushing the military team. That was so OTT, bashing us over the head to establish that he was Eeeeeviill, such that I don't see the nuance Alan mentions at all. Also, the way they did the ambush was really clever, except that it wasn't. They apparently had the total drop on the group without "the Governor" having to even drive up. So why not just ambush them without all that? In real life that would have made him the most likely to get shot even if the raid was a success overall. So it would be a role you'd assign to an underling, or just not do at all.
And yeah, the tanks of heads, the mad scientist underling...jeesh. All very schlocky comic tropes, bleah.
Governor not giving his name is a classic authoritarian/brain-washing move. It dehumanizes him to the village and makes them less likely to question him or perceive weakness. The more they think of his title and position, the more respect/fear he wields. When he said "never" to Andrea he was saying, "I run the show here, biatch." Made perfect sense to me.
October 29, 2012 at 12:52AM ESTAlso, before he drove up to the military they were inside vehicles and in more enclosed positions. He drew them out and then got their guard down when he started talking about the wounded pilot. If they'd just opened fire, they may have taken out one or two guys before the rest react and it becomes a much more difficult fight. That also made perfect sense.
Anything else you want to reach on, or do you have some legitimate complaints?
SlackerInc Legitimate is in the eye of the beholder. I find "The Governor", Michonne, the mad scientist, etc. to be hokey in general. Legitimate or not for that to not be my cup of tea?
October 29, 2012 at 1:19AM ESTBut getting back specifically to the ambush: your counterpoints are fine as far as they go, but can you at least acknowledge that while the plan they came up with had a high probability of being a "winning" firefight, meaning they'd likely kill all the military guys with at most a loss of one of their own, the one they did have a decent likelihood of losing was the guy standing right in front of them? So why would "The Governor" take that chance? Just because it's a hokey, "twisty" move, and I had thought this show had been rising above that level of storytelling.
If it's an isolated incident, then I don't have a problem with it. But if they keep having the Governor do superhero level stuff, that would be annoying. I'm not a fan of the ultra smart, kicks ass, no equal human (aka Ben from Lost...god he was a terrible character!).
October 29, 2012 at 1:50AM ESTponce I agree this episode sucked. But I don't think the problem is the predictable cartoon bad guys. I think the problem is the zombies just aren't that scary any more. They're just a nuisanse to the main characters now, like mosquitoes that neede to be swatted once in a while.
October 29, 2012 at 2:27AM ESTSlackerInc Ponce, I think that's inevitable in a zombie series (which may be why there have been a good number of zombie movies before anyone attempted a series). But I think it can still be a good, exciting show if it's handled right, because any kind of postapocalyptic scenario can be good if done right, even without any zombies at all. At least in my opinion it can.
October 29, 2012 at 2:41AM EST
Slacker... clearly the Governor is a sociopath with a possible god complex, so he may not fear death the way you're projecting. Also, you don't earn true soldier loyalty in a post-apocalyptic world (or any, really) without showing you're willing to step into harm's way. I can understand why you feel the way you do, but it just seems very nitpicky to me.
October 29, 2012 at 3:45AM ESTfraac I think we've already established that The Walking Dead writers aren't the most self-aware. I fully expect the rest of the season to be comic schlock and soap opera crap.
October 29, 2012 at 5:17AM ESTGarySF Agree with Slacker here...silly plan to ambush the soldier - Gov would've taken a bullet for sure. No subtlety about his character at all -- even when he's talking pleasantly with Andrea you can see it's a thinly veiled act. The scene of him looking at his family photo in better times was a shorthand attempt to humanize him a bit, but didn't do anything to make me think he's any better than Giancarlo Esposito's character on Revolution.
October 29, 2012 at 9:59AM ESTI also think this episode became very cartoonish, what with Merle's prosthetic "hand"/zombie killing device. Where'd they go or who'd they have to see to build or obtain such a nifty gadget? That was strictly the brainchild of a comic book writer.
Dezbot I didn't mind Merle's "Evil Dead" hand so much. Gives him something to do besides glower and say racist stuff.
October 29, 2012 at 10:55AM ESTPrintin' Mike @Jess Haynie: It’s a classic “authoritarian” move? Done by whom, exactly? Joseph Stalin? Adolph Hitler? Mao Tse Tung? Pol Pot? (Notice the actual names used by the aforementioned dictators.) Sure, a grandiose title may be established – but everyone still knows the dictator’s freakin’ name. The “no name bullshit” makes “The Governor” into a joke during the very first episode in which he appears. There is in fact a name for that kind of writing – it’s called INCOMPETENT.
October 29, 2012 at 11:22AM ESTAs for the ambush: again, we’re made to believe that these soldiers are on the run, cut off from the rest of their unit, and surrounded by a bunch of zombies (that are supposed to be a huge threat for some reason). In those circumstances, they don’t have lookouts posted, constantly surveying their surroundings for any movements and thereby allowing an enemy force for sneak up and ambush them? THAT is the part that isn’t credible.
Mark in Omaha Printin' Mike. Exactly correct. The no name thing is more Clint Eastwood than actual dictators. Way back in Season 1 we established that no one knows how to set perimeteres, even the military, in this universe. Also agree the guy standing right in front of the troops would be the most at risk.
October 29, 2012 at 1:41PM ESTI've never read the comics, I thought taking an entire hour introducing the Govenor was a good move, and Robert Morrisey has acting abilities, unlike some of the other characters. I didn't have any problem leaving Rick and his group back at the prison. It even served as a good counter-point. He's living inside a prison, the other group has an idlyic town all to themselves. On the surface, it would seem to be very tempting. Even though he may be a psycho, at least he knows how to set up a defensive position.
SlackerInc Printin' Mike, good post in general, and I particularly want to highlight your point about their being "surrounded by a bunch of zombies (that are supposed to be a huge threat for some reason)." They will never be able to sufficiently handwave away the absurdity of this as concerns the military in particular. They tried to lampshade it in this ep with "things were secure, we had food and supplies, but somehow someone got infected". Somehow? Is this the U.S. military or the Keystone Kops? If Camp Dinner Bell (or at least the rump faction thereof) managed to survive all this time, there's no way a military base should have succumbed.
October 29, 2012 at 2:50PM ESTSome will argue that this is just something that's necessary to swallow for the story to work, but I don't see it that way at all. Why couldn't there be a whole bunch of military bases that are secure, but who are unwilling to allow civilians to enter? They might even come out in APCs from time to time to raid supplies, firing on anyone who gets in their way. They could make the postapocalyptic landscape more difficult for civilian survivors if anything.
Muh I thought this one was great...and unlike the previous episodes, which were also good, I didn't get bored at character scenes. The Governor was interesting. When it's looked down on just because it wasn't a bunch of people killing zombies the whole time...can't get behind that. It's like the people who argued that the previous seasons were any good because it had people killin zombies!
October 29, 2012 at 8:46PM ESTWell, guess this all shows Darabont shouldn't be doing tv. Once these guys got to start a season on their own terms, they turned it around.
Froide I agree that the Governor wants to maintain an authoritative distance and a larger-than-life persona by not revealing his name. I also wonder if sharing his actual name might allow others to dig up a compromising past.
November 3, 2012 at 11:21AM EST(Remember how the soldiers reporting to Tom Hanks' C.O. character in "Band of Brothers" betted on the C.O.'s civilian profession? Hanks' character wisely refrained from revealing he was a schoolteacher until it became necessary to humanize himself with the troop, and in so doing, allow him and his men regain their ability to relate as humans rather than killing machines.)
I also agree that the Guv's a despot with a God complex. Don't royals and popes - like the Guv- assume titular personae to distance theirhuman personae from their roles and to distance themselves from the hoi polloi?
Nas
October 28, 2012 at 10:11PM EST Reply to CommentStill haven't read the comics - though I intend to - but I couldn't escape all the hype abt the governor and how he's so hateful. At the start of this ep and along the way I found myself liking him... Then BAM ambush on army guys! Then that wall of heads. Now obvs he's a megalomaniacal pscho.. So that was my tipping point XD
Hopefully Angela isn't cAught up in this or she'll be on the wall, with the pilot, which wasn't surprising. But coming back with munitions and a half cocked story? Jim Jones would be proud. And the previews for next week? Wow
October 28, 2012 at 10:22PM ESTHopefully Angela isn't cAught up in this or she'll be on the wall, with the pilot, which wasn't surprising. But coming back with munitions and a half cocked story? Jim Jones would be proud. And the previews for next week? Wow
October 28, 2012 at 10:22PM ESTMdakota
October 28, 2012 at 10:28PM EST Reply to CommentI was VERY disappointed they spent the whole episode with the governor story. Personally I never did like Andrea, her character just seems consistently self-obsessed and cocky, and I just never saw her as that strong...So it's disappointing to me she gets so much screen time...MORE CAROL, MORE DARYL, HELL I'D EVEN TAKE MORE CARL & LORI!!!!
GarySF More Carol?? I shudder at the thought.
October 29, 2012 at 12:22AM EST
I think the governor story went better than I thought it would. And it was nice to not be irritated with Lori for once.
October 29, 2012 at 1:37AM ESTbbq_hax0r I thought it was a good way to introduce us to him and his crew of flunkies (get it?) rather than divert our attention from Rick and Lori problems and the prison. We fully jumped in and only concentrated on this new (and supposedly important) character/location. I'm glad that did it that way.
October 29, 2012 at 1:49AM ESTlinda_wild@rogers.com no more Carl & Lori, that can't be repaired. over-boring & over annoying to the point where I feel like taking muting when I see her/him. this is way more riveting story line with way superior characters. Carl is just beyond annoying. I caught an inclination of a hatching romantic story line for hat kid with Hershel's youngest daughter. Make. me. puke.
October 29, 2012 at 7:52AM ESTPerd Vert I was frustrated that Andrea came off like such a dope, walking around Woodbury smiling like it was Disneyland.
October 29, 2012 at 7:18PM ESTAnd Andrea fainting at the site of Merle like a Gilligan's Island character was awful!
After this week's cartoon villains and last week's bumbling stooges in the prison I share concerns about these new characters making things too "comic-booky."
PNeville85
October 28, 2012 at 10:36PM EST Reply to CommentAnyone else think of Buster Bluth when Merle was waving his arm around?
Bill And that's why you don't handcuff someone to a pipe during a zombie apocalypse.
October 28, 2012 at 11:19PM ESTides The Loose Seal Dead. . . . I'd watch it.
October 29, 2012 at 2:46AM ESTchris_baldwin
October 28, 2012 at 10:45PM EST Reply to CommentAlan, is it okay to start calling it Chekhov's tea yet?
David No cause now I'm paranoid that's a spoiler from the comic.
October 29, 2012 at 1:10AM ESTDezbot From the way they emphasized the tea throughout the show, it's obvious it's important and not what it seems. No comics knowledge needed for that (says the person who's never read the comic). :-)
October 29, 2012 at 10:57AM ESTKarenX Speculation from another person who's never read the comic: Maybe it's like that stuff from DUNE that turns your eyes blue. The Governor served this special tea up to the newcomers right quick.
October 29, 2012 at 1:13PM ESTDavid Ah, okay. Good to have another Chekov's item on AMC while I wait for Chekov's ricin to come back in play.
October 29, 2012 at 2:07PM ESTFroide I don't read the comics, either, but got the not-so-subtle tea hints when the Guv told Dr. Frankenstein he needs him for his tea, and when Dr. F pushed that tea at bkfst w/ Andrea and Michonne. I didn't see Michonne drink it, though Andrea did.
November 3, 2012 at 11:43AM ESTThe tea references evoked Dune for me, as well.
Was anyone else reminded of the "Stepford Wives" at any point, of cults, or of TV cop shows in which male prisoners are fed saltpeter to dampen their libidos and make them less aggressive?
Miles
October 28, 2012 at 10:47PM EST Reply to CommentAlan, I'm still not sure why you even mentioned the comics in your review. It seems to go against the entire culture you've been building here and only serves to hint at spoilers for both the comics and the TV show.
I'm in a unique position of having only read the comics up until the point of last week's episode (so 14, I believe), and I think it'll be a little bit harder for me to enjoy the next few issues, as well as the next few episodes, with you already talking about your opinion of the Governor in hindsight when most of us barely met the guy. This was supposed to be the place to go without comic talk.
sepinwall I was very careful not to discuss anything about my reasons for disliking the character in the comics, and to stick to information we get about this version of him within the context of this episode, Miles. Sorry you found it troubling, but I did it as a means of complimenting the show, by pointing out what a good job I felt they did at introducing a character who turned me away from the book.
October 28, 2012 at 11:01PM EST
Cry me a river, Miles. Wow.
October 29, 2012 at 1:38AM ESTbbq_hax0r I tend to agree with Miles, while I found Alan's comment prejudiced, I think we all knew that the Governor was supposed to be an antagonist this season, and now us non-readers are trying to find out why. Listening to Talking Dead or even previews suggested that. I personally feel like people's reactions to Michonne (AWESOME) and the Governor (LOSER) changed the perspective of this episode and ruined a chance to discuss/challenge certain notions and ideas through an unbiased lens.
October 29, 2012 at 1:54AM ESTElevation Yeah Alan, you totally screwed up for not knowing what page of the comic book Miles was on. Shame on you.
October 29, 2012 at 1:56AM ESTMiles @Kro Lin: Alright
October 29, 2012 at 10:03AM EST@Elevation: You're right, Alan shouldn't need to know where I am in the comics, because we shouldn't be discussing them at all. It's enough that he knows where we are in the show.
He just painted the Governor as a character of pure evil, so much so that he apparently stopped reading the comics. I don't know about you, but I found the character to be completely ambiguous in his debut, but now that Alan has brought up the comic mythology, we can pretty well guess where it's going. That was a pointless contribution to his own review - brought nothing to the table, and in fact probably took things off of it.
Alan's a great TV guy and I'll keep coming here and recommending him to others, so I'm not trying to start drama. Just pointing out that it was an odd choice by him and even hints at spoilers can be annoying.
Ron Some people just have a thirst for complaining, Alan. Keep trite complaints like that to yourself.
October 29, 2012 at 11:07AM ESTHuell Goodman "I don't know about you, but I found the character to be completely ambiguous in his debut..."
October 29, 2012 at 7:33PM ESTMiles, seriously? Maybe he was ambiguous for part of the episode, but by the end we've learned:
He slaughtered the national guard unit and lied to the townspeople about it.
He lied to and killed the wounded guardsman in cold blood and put his severed head in a jar for entertainment.
He keeps his "guests" under armed guard and goes around ominously whispering.
He has Merle - Merle! - in a position of authority.
What else do you need? A black hat and twirling mustache?
People go way overboard on the "Don't spoil anything" critique of shows these days. Just a bunch of babies.
October 30, 2012 at 12:35AM ESTMiles I'll just copy/paste a below comment, because they put it into words better than I could:
October 30, 2012 at 10:15AM EST"1) A secret lab, where he's trying to figure out zombies? Science and knowledge, boo! At least someone is trying to figure out zombies and things about them.
2) Because he was aligned with Merle? Gee, Merle was aligned with Daryl and the group at one point, yet we don't hold it against them, and we can see that Merle is on a tighter rope with the Governor and in more control than he was previously.
3)Because he killed a potential threat to his community? Possibly, but you're getting into morally tenuous situations considering circumstance (military could threaten; supplies; etc). We praised Rick killing the convicts last episode to protect his group, how was this different?
4) Because he has a weird zombie fish tank? Herschel had a zombie farm where he fed them chickens. Hell, this Michonne keeps two of them as pets, and the fish tank is weird and proves he is evil?
5) Or was it because Michonne (whom we know very little about) was suspicious of him? Like we have any reason to trust her judgment or know anything of her character."
So yes, completely ambiguous in the world of the Walking Dead. In 2012 peacetime America, of course not.
bbq_hax0r I'm glad you liked my comments Miles!
October 30, 2012 at 3:06PM ESTAs for Huell let me respond to your "evidence."
1) He killed a serious potential threat to his community. If that was a marauding band of rapists who took killed and pillaged, which you don't know, then he made an absolutely wise decision. History is littered with examples of leaderless disjointed military units as arguably the most dangerous thing possible. It is also littered with examples of military units abusing their power (unfortunately, even Americans). The military is a very dangerous threat, to just about anyone.
As for lying about it? Ha. Is Obama evil for lying about what happened in Libya or his drone war in Afghanistan? Was Bush evil for lying about reasoning for invasions of Iraq or the war on terror? I could keep going back to some instance where people died and leaders lied. If a leader lying to your people is evidence of evil, even in our democratically elected modern America we have a lot of evil leaders.
2) We don't know what he was doing with the severed head. Seemed weird, but evil, no. As for lying, if lying is a sign of evil, well, arent we all?
3) So if you brought in two hardened and capable survivors into your peaceful community, you would instantly give them guns and freedom? No, you would keep an eye on them to make sure they aren't a threat. That's the smart and logical play. They can walk around and mingle with the citizens, they just have an eye kept on them and can't have their guns. Seems reasonable to me.
4) You're judging Merle based on 1-2 episodes. Again, Merle was with Daryl, yet we don't hold it against him. Merle may be a racist (I'm sure he's not the only one!) and a bit of a loose cannon, but he seems capable and able as an underling, especially since the Governor seems to have Merle under control (from what we've seen). I'm not a Merle fan, but his presence does not indicate evil any more or less than did Shane or even Daryl (doesn't he torture people?).
You're looking at this from the perspective of Rick's group, which was exactly my point. The subjective lens we watch the show biases our opinions on characters and actions, and the writers do not do a good enough job of providing nuance and perspective. Didn't Vatos teach us anything?
mala
October 28, 2012 at 10:50PM EST Reply to CommentWas that the pilot's head in the top tank???? Governor is seriously damaged and Michonne's instincts are right on. She must be sick watching Andrea get sucked right in to it. Interestingly, when I saw the women gardening, and a pregnant woman crossing the road as Micheonne & Andrea walkedup the road with Governor's girlfriend my impression was of a Mormon compound, a benign captivity.
BrettPoker The Governor Romney, eh? You may be onto something.
October 28, 2012 at 11:33PM ESTJuninho Mormons have compounds?
October 28, 2012 at 11:33PM ESTBrettPoker "mormon compound". Google is your friend.
October 28, 2012 at 11:36PM EST
lol. awesome.
October 29, 2012 at 1:39AM ESTMark in Omaha I didn't realize it was supposed to be the pilot either until I watched the Talking Dead. They did have a head shot of him with the oxygen tube up his nose right after he gave up the intel. I guess that was supposed to be enough. BTW, asked this in another post, did they also show Michon's pets in a tank? The town does seem idylic, at least on the surface. The black guy henchman seems to be looking at Michon with bad intention. Did they introduce the woman as the Govenor's girlfriend? Was that who was in his bed at the end of the show?
October 29, 2012 at 1:51PM ESTBrettPoker Pretty sure a lot of your questions will be answered in future episodes. They want you to have questions going into future episodes.
October 29, 2012 at 1:56PM ESTI finally think the writers know what they're doing at this point. Give it halfway through the season before you start a full-fledged nitpick.
Perd Vert The dopey extras walking around in pastels were a little much. They townspeople looked like tourists at Disney World. Are we to believe these people survived the zombie apocalypse? Wouldn't The Governor be picky about who he allowed in his community?
October 29, 2012 at 7:40PM ESTMark in Omaha Agree with the dopey extras. One person was raking the yard when they came out of the courthouse. A guy was walking across the street with two boxwood shrubs in containers. Evidently the nurseries are still in operation and their biggest concern is keeping their lawns looking nice. Also in the last scene, there are some people right behind Andrea that are literally wandering around.
October 29, 2012 at 8:02PM ESTMalalatete PerdV & MarkO - This exactly echoes back to my comment that the scene gave the impression of a Mormon Compound. The episode suggests the Governor has built a utopia (or dystopia) where everyone knows their role and complies, and there might be an undercurrent of fear we have not seen yet. We haven't met many (civilian) townspeople. That will be telling. Maybe there have been non-compliant people who have met nasty ends, and the townpeople have adapted, given the alternative.
October 29, 2012 at 8:30PM ESTThough I really wish it does turn out to be a utopia, I wouldn't be surprised to learn men get any gal they wish and if the gal doesn't wish she's deemed non-compliant and finds herself shunned or 'gated' to fend for herself outside. I got this vibe from Merle/Andrea and also the way Michonne is being evaluated by one guard type person. It reeks of threat. Merle and the guard in their restraint so far seem to be people who know that they will get what they want... the system is set up to support them. They just need to wait and please the Governor so Gov can bestow his generous blessing on them.
Perd Vert Mala, I've never heard of a Mormon compound, but it did remind me of an article I read about the Scientology Town in Florida where they apparently have a similar attitude towards "guests" and microphones hidden in flowers and lamp posts.
October 30, 2012 at 6:20AM ESTjennyh
October 28, 2012 at 10:53PM EST Reply to CommentI think your criticism of Michonne as a character viewed only in context of the show is valid, Alan. That said, as a fan of the comics, I'm beyond thrilled with Danai Gurira and her portrayal -- I appreciated her wordlessness this episode, because the looks she was throwing said it all.
GarySF Disagree. Her looks were repetitive and annoying. Poor example of wordless acting IMHO.
October 29, 2012 at 12:27AM ESTSlackerInc I'm with you, Gary.
October 29, 2012 at 12:37AM ESTphil i kept thinking of the SNL bit ," i need more cowbell", i pictured the director saying"danai, i need more scowl!! "
October 29, 2012 at 1:08AM ESTSlackerInc Ha, nice one Phil!
October 29, 2012 at 1:20AM EST
lol Phil. I didn't like Michonne either.
October 29, 2012 at 1:40AM ESTcgeye To be blunt -- if you were a black woman in the middle of the Deep South, during a zombie apocalypse where damn few women have survived, and the first thing a group of men do is take your weapon away and isolate you and your female friend -- and not even allow privacy when talking to the one female you're allowed to talk to -- wouldn't *you* keep scowling?
October 29, 2012 at 3:52AM ESTTwo words foremost on any woman's brain in such a situation: Gang Rape. And the Governor puts out such a 'let's rebuild society without all that pesky self-determination' vibe that I can see him separating the friends, then choosing who gets to impregnate them first.
Because we've seen strong patriarchal guys who do treat women with respect, it's easy to forget that in any crisis situation with weapons, women's autonomy becomes, in the opinion of many, optional. Michonne having pet (Caucasian) zombies just might have been her warning to stray men: I'm not afraid of either killing or humiliating you, after death. Avoid me, if you can.
sanen85 @CGEYE The "pet zombies" were both black from what I could tell.
October 29, 2012 at 12:17PM ESTphil Theres more emotions in the playbook besides a scowl, leaving out the whole black woman in the south histionics, so far the charactor is a one trick pony...
October 29, 2012 at 1:35PM ESTTed So, CGEYE, she's scowling at everyone and generally acting like an asshole because she's the worst stereotype possible of an angry black woman? I doubt that's what they were going for, but they certainly didn't provide any other explanation for her behavior. Nothing anyone in the compound did justified it at all certainly.
October 29, 2012 at 3:43PM ESTHuell Goodman I don't see what her race has to do with it (the Governor's crew seems pretty diverse - I recall a few black dudes and an asian), but I do agree with CGEYE that rape would be foremost on any woman's mind in that situation. That's why its disappointing that Andrea seems so gullible.
October 29, 2012 at 7:51PM ESTGiven that there appear to be more survivors around than we may have thought I'd be surprised if Andrea and Michonne hadn't run across some shady guys over 8 months of wandering.
Daniel I understand a few scowls and the odd look of suspicion, but if she is at all getting the bad vibes about the place we all now know about, then she would be better of playing nice and planning an escape (because the Governor is not likely to let them go willingly).
October 30, 2012 at 4:45AM ESTSo . . . yeah, this episode had its good moments, but as someone said in a thread on a previous episode, the whole cast (except perhaps Darryl and Michone -- though we have only just met her) are really unintelligent, and rarely have a strategic thought in their heads.
BigDerf I dunno about looks or scowls. Maybe look or scowl. She only has one "serious" facial expression.
November 4, 2012 at 2:49AM ESTAlex T.
October 28, 2012 at 11:18PM EST Reply to CommentI thought that scientist guy should have been played by Gale B. from Breaking Bad so there would a second Breaking Bad-Walking Dead crossover (the first being the blue crystal from last season)
SlackerInc It's funny, because I recognised the scientist and thought he *was* someone from BB. But when I looked it up, I realised I have only seen him in one thing: "Shrink", where he played a seriously OCD Hollywood power agent.
October 29, 2012 at 12:38AM ESTDavid I was wondering if it was the same actor from Rubicon, but was thrown off by the lack of beard.
October 29, 2012 at 1:12AM ESTbbq_hax0r I'm glad to see that someone is trying to figure out things about the zombies. Whether or not their comments are accurate or not, its still interesting to know that humanity's curiosity and need to understand haven't been completely lost.
October 29, 2012 at 1:57AM ESTHuell Goodman Yes! I thought the same thing. Especially when The Governor said he kept him around for the tea (which would be coffee).
October 29, 2012 at 7:59PM ESTAlso, The Governor walking up to guardsmen alone seemed like a Gus move.
It would be great to see an abandoned Los Pollos Hermanos in Woodbury.
fyi The scientist guy has also been Alicia's gay brother on 'The Good Wife' for a few episodes last season.
October 30, 2012 at 10:57AM ESTkro_lin
October 28, 2012 at 11:23PM EST Reply to CommentI enjoyed the episode. Not sure what I think of Michone, for the exact reasons Alan states. She actually seems too cartoonish right now. I'm a little skeptical that Andrea would fall for any of the Governor's antics, but she is desperate to find some normalcy in her life...and she did seem to be questioning him, so I will wait and see.
It was nice to see a new story develop, with new characters...I was tired of seeing Lori on screen.
Am I the only one that doesn't give a damn about Merle? I just thought Darrel was interesting enough without having to play off a character we've only seen briefly...and now he's back, and for some reason it feels like many Walking Dead fans are really happy about it. I don't really get why that is...but to each his own I guess.
Overall I give this season an "A" so far. In fact, the whole show has been an "A"...with only a few episodes being off the mark.
matt Post a comment...
October 28, 2012 at 11:42PM ESTtee-dubya I think the conflict for Darryl that Merle's return will bring is going to make for a great storyline. And therefore more Darryl, which I would enjoy!
October 29, 2012 at 1:19AM EST
I hope you are right, Tee. For me,it's only a minor annoyance, as I wasn't a fan of Merle in the beginning. This show has it together, mostly.
October 29, 2012 at 1:42AM ESTMarkD I am confused as to why people are complaining that there wasn't any "slambang" in this episode. If we have nothing but "slambang" then we might as well be watching someone playing a video game. This is an ongoing story(AMC Story matters) and with that you need to "move it along". We couldn't just have Rick and Group all the time. It's a bigger world with bigger problems than just the undead trying to eat people. So I was happy(overall) with this episode. Granted I'm sure there are those that are concerned that it could turn into Hershels Farm part 2. But I think the Governor will make sure that doesn't happen.
October 29, 2012 at 9:46AM ESTNow about Merle. I was happy to see him come back because, oh I don't know, he was an angry,drug dealing racist that was handcuffed on the roof of a building by a cop and left for dead while the black guy dropped the key down a hole and, by the way, his brother is an important member of the main group. That's got intense drama slobbered all over it.
KarenX " I'm a little skeptical that Andrea would fall for any of the Governor's antics, but she is desperate to find some normalcy in her life..."
October 29, 2012 at 1:19PM ESTTo follow up on what CGEYE said about Michonne as a black woman in the deep south... Andrea the the (successful, educated, attractive) white woman has probably had nothing to fear from towns and authority in her whole life. She fits right in with the Governor and his lifestyle, and Michonne's inherent suspicion of the place (see CGEYE above) based on pre- and post-zombie life seem less reasonable to her. He's already driven a wedge between them just by having showers and crockery and preschools.
Mark in Omaha I could totally see Daryl having to choose which person to kill, Rick or his own brother.
October 29, 2012 at 1:56PM EST
I just don't find Merle interesting, regardless of whether good story lines come out of his character. As for Andrea...I'm not really concerned about her story (as far as whether I will like it). I like her character enough, and thought she and Shane played off each other really well during season 2.
October 30, 2012 at 12:40AM ESTAs for Michonne...regardless of her ethnicity, I believe (right now, anyway) that she is too much a cartoon. Not a fan.
colin
October 28, 2012 at 11:50PM EST Reply to Commentwas the pilot Greg Grunberg aka Matt Parkman from heroes? sure looked like him
Nope. Not at all.
October 29, 2012 at 12:55AM ESTDavid (chudleycannons) No, but for a second I did think it was Grunberg, who also played the pilot in the pilot of LOST.
October 29, 2012 at 1:12AM ESTElevation I thought it might have been television's Dave Holmes.
October 29, 2012 at 2:16AM ESTides Strange that you mention this. . . I never mistook him for Greg Grunberg, but he reminded me forcefully of him, though there wasn't much obvious resemblance. I wondered if maybe it was the similarity to the pilot in the lost pilot.
October 29, 2012 at 2:54AM ESTjustbeingsilly Chudley's comment made me wonder if there could ever be a TV series called "Pilot" because it would get confusing when it was time to title the first episode.
October 30, 2012 at 10:59AM ESTOur how about if a show was called 'The Plane'. Then the next day at the water cooler you could ask your co-workers if they had seen the pilot of The Plane, of course.
Froide Reply to comment...Didja see the pilot of "The Plane?Teehee!
November 3, 2012 at 1:03PM ESTGarySF
October 29, 2012 at 12:15AM EST Reply to CommentThe actress who plays Michonne is horrible...she seems to consider a constant angry glare to be acting. It struck me as annoying and ridiculous. Have no interest in her character whatsoever.
I completely agree. Too cartoonish.
October 29, 2012 at 1:07AM ESTbelikemike Michonne needs to hide her suspicions a little better. Angrily glaring at everyone doesn't seem the smart way to play it.
October 29, 2012 at 2:00AM ESTshortstopk I doubt it's the actress' fault, knowing this show. Someone has to direct the show and the performances, and someone has to edit it together. Take how bad Natalie Portman is in the Star Wars movies as an example. Everyone picks on Hayden Christensen too, but my defense of him and Portman both is "George Lucas."
October 29, 2012 at 8:51AM ESTAnyway, Michonne is hardly the first character to appear one dimensional.
I agree it's too early to know whether the fault lies with the actress or the writers. I tend to think it's a little both in these cases. Lori is another example of the difficulties of figuring out how much fault lies with the writers and how much with the actor.
October 30, 2012 at 12:45AM ESTI would have liked to have seen some back story to Michonne...that would have helped flesh her out a little. I found myself wondering what happened with her and Andrea during the last 8 months. Maybe they will do a few flashbacks (doubtful)...I would love to see how those two survived on their own.
GarySF
October 29, 2012 at 12:20AM EST Reply to CommentI don't think it took a rocket scientist to know without reading the graphic novels that The Governor is no good. It's just another TV trope...the "nice guy" offering salvation must be dirty. His association with Merle just confirmed it early on. Everything in this ep was telegraphed, including that he would eventually kill both the pilot and his comrades. Wow, didn't see that coming! And what kind of military outfit doesn't secure its perimeter against the enemy, especially during a zombie apocalypse? They raise their weapons against a car with a white flag, but are easy pickings against amateurs in the woods?
SlackerInc Yeah, their attempts at defence were shoddy, but as I wrote above the offensive play of having "The Governor" drive right up where he could easily get shot with one of their dying moves made no sense either.
October 29, 2012 at 12:40AM ESTbelikemike I can buy the military unit dropping their guard a bit. I'm sure the group is tired/hungry, and they're looking for walkers as their threat (who approach nice and slow), not people in the woods with guns. I found the Governor firing the first shot a little more unbelievable. He could've easily gotten shot with that plan. Maybe he's that psycho.
October 29, 2012 at 1:37AM EST
I didn't have a problem with that scene. I am a little concerned that they are going to make the Governor some kind of evil genius badass that always has the upper hand. Ok, maybe I did have a little problem with that scene.
October 29, 2012 at 1:44AM ESTBryan L That was my major nitpick for the episode. The soldiers were taken out WAY too easy, and the Governor was taking too big a chance with his approach. The Governor can be explained as crazy, so I can get past that, but there's no way a trained group of soldiers gets slaughtered that easily. It would have been better if it took a little longer, let the Gov lull them a bit more before the attack.
October 29, 2012 at 8:55AM ESTDaniel This whole show is crying out for just one ex-military character who knows about perimeters, MREs, where the army keeps its weapons (I want to see a flamethrower), battle strategy and tactics. . . . and so on, and on.
October 30, 2012 at 4:52AM ESTThat would force the writers to stop most of the characters making mistakes they would have learned not to do in week on of the zombie apocalypse.
GarySF
October 29, 2012 at 12:25AM EST Reply to CommentI know in The Talking Dead one of the producers said the tea was an inside joke about one of the writers who loves tea, but I took it as a nod to another AMC show, with a former persnickety character who brewed outstanding coffee. This guy was the Governor's version of Gale Bedecher.
Oaktown Girl
October 29, 2012 at 1:24AM EST Reply to CommentI have not read the comics, so I'm only going off the show. My first thought when they showed the first tank of zombie heads was that it was his family he had sickly "preserved". Remember, the shot right before that showed him looking at a photo of his family, pre-zombie apocalypse, one presumes.
So I thought he had just gone into his private room to "be with" his family. Gross and twisted, but well, whatever. Then the camera pans out and you see all the other heads. Oh boy.
belikemike Yeah I agree that there's probably significance for each of those heads. I recognized Michonne's zombies and the consensus seems the top one was the pilot. That would be twisted if he preserved his family as well.
October 29, 2012 at 1:44AM ESTbbq_hax0r
October 29, 2012 at 1:38AM EST Reply to CommentI think Alan was too biased when writing up this review. I also believe that the comic book readers are skewed in their views on this and it makes something that ought to be subjective or ambiguous less so. The lens which people viewed this episode and characters is biased, particularly with Michonne and the Guv'nuh. Hear me out.
I knew nothing of the Governor coming into this episode other than he was the antagonist. I kept waiting for him to reveal why to me that he was such a bad guy. Looking for signs and waiting for that "a ha there, we go, now I see why he is the bad guy." I was viewing it through a biased perspective, and I feel like many others were as well which impacts how we view things.
1) A secret lab, where he's trying to figure out zombies? Science and knowledge, boo! At least someone is trying to figure out zombies and things about them.
2) Because he was aligned with Merle? Gee, Merle was aligned with Daryl and the group at one point, yet we don't hold it against them, and we can see that Merle is on a tighter rope with the Governor and in more control than he was previously.
3)Because he killed a potential threat to his community? Possibly, but you're getting into morally tenuous situations considering circumstance (military could threaten; supplies; etc). We praised Rick killing the convicts last episode to protect his group, how was this different?
4) Because he has a weird zombie fish tank? Herschel had a zombie farm where he fed them chickens. Hell, this Michonne keeps two of them as pets, and the fish tank is weird and proves he is evil?
5) Or was it because Michonne (whom we know very little about) was suspicious of him? Like we have any reason to trust her judgment or know anything of her character.
I don't know. The Governor seems creepy and strange, but to come out and instantly say his true nature is malevolent based on that episode alone isn't a home-run, or even that strong of an argument. The community seems safe and the people cared for. We need to see more of him and how he treats his "citizens" before we can truly judge his character. One episode being viewed through biased lens of antagonist to "our group" I don't think is fair to make any definitive judgment.
That's a good argument. Regardless of any pre-episode bias though...it looks as if he will be a rather nasty fellow.
October 29, 2012 at 1:47AM ESTbbq_hax0r I imagine eventually he will be revealed to be a nasty fellow. However, even a power-hungry dictator can be a good leader. If his people are cared for, protected, and given a better life, then it makes the judgment much more difficult. I felt like this could have been a neat avenue to explore that (and perhaps they will) without jamming "antagonist!" down our throats which instantly biases the viewer to him, his actions, and his people.
October 29, 2012 at 2:13AM ESTSlackerInc It's impressive to see the apologia you came up with for The Guv there. And I do think a more ambiguous character would have been interesting. But as I think you seem to be acknowledging in your follow-up comment, they used an anvil at the end of the episode to make it clear that he was Evil with a capital "E".
October 29, 2012 at 2:45AM ESTbbq_hax0r Apologia, it's called objectivity. I have no reason to support the Governor, I literally know very little about him, and am judging him based on his actions that I've seen. I'm saying if he wasn't presented as "THE ANATAGONIST" then it would have been difficult to come to that conclusion based off one episode. While he may (and likely will) get there within the next couple of episodes, I hardly think you can make such definitive statements based off the last episode.
October 29, 2012 at 11:17AM ESTExplain to me how the end of the episode make sit clear he is evil? Being told that character x is the bad guy biases your view on his actions. Again most of his actions in that episode are similar to Rick, yet we don't seem to think of Rick as malevolent.
CONN Didn't even know who the Governor was coming into the episode, so I completely agree with this. Even as he did all these things, I never got the idea he was EVIL, just a bit creepy. If he's supposed to be completely malevolent, perhaps he could be, but I wouldn't be so sure he isn't a bit more complicated.
October 29, 2012 at 11:57AM ESTshortstopk You're being generous to the Gov here: "killed a potential threat to his community" He gave them zero chance to be anything but, and it's definitely the point in my mind where the show decided to tip it's hand. Rick and company at least let the prisoners live and tried to set up a live and let live relationship.
October 29, 2012 at 12:42PM ESTThe only threat the guardsmen would have posed is to his leadership, and more likely been a help to him had he approached them warmly. Obviously he's more concerned about himself at this point.
My big complaint is that like always with guys like this, there's a seemingly deep supply of men who simply obey him for no apparent reason.
Mark in Omaha I never read the comics but did know that his character was "supposed" to be evil. I watched it objectively, and he did throw out some bad vibes, but also acted a different way when he had an audience. So I think they did show some nuance about his character. The parts that sealed it, was keeping the pilot alive until he got his intel, then having his head cut off (or doing it himself?) and displaying it in the bank of aquariums.
October 29, 2012 at 2:07PM ESTSlackerInc I'm kind of at a loss to how to respond to people asking how it's evil to get a friendly group of fellow American soldiers to let their guard down and then slaughter them in cold blood. Really? If he felt it was too risky to take them into his community (though even that seems like a stretch), he could have just left them alone. To kill them and take their stuff is just so obviously Eeeevil (and intended as such by the writers) I'm sort of at a loss here and kind of hoping you're pulling my leg.
October 29, 2012 at 2:57PM ESTAlso, what ShortstopK said.
bbq_hax0r Short - sometimes to protect your own drastic measures are necessary. Giving people a chance? This is a zombie apocalypse where other humans are even more a threat than the zombies. You have a good safe life, you really going to take your chance with a group of heavily armored, armed, and trained soldiers, who pose a substantial threat, that they mean well? That's a pretty decent risk. Doing what is necessary to ensure the survival of your own group does not make one necessarily evil based on the circumstances.
October 29, 2012 at 3:01PM ESTYea being nice and giving people a chance would be preferable, but that is a luxury some people don't have and a risk some people aren't willing to take. I don't think that makes them evil considering what we know about the outside world. It's all subjective.
bbq_hax0r "friendly American soldiers." You can say that in all certainty, you'd stake your life on that? Sure.
October 29, 2012 at 3:11PM ESTrcade I've been trying to figure out the Governor's logic in killing the U.S. soldiers instead of bringing them into his community.
October 29, 2012 at 10:10PM ESTMy favorite theory so far is that he wouldn't bring real soldiers in because they would be a threat to his authority. Soldiers would have instant credibility as leaders and if 6-8 of them joined the community together, they could work together and become a challenge to him.
So if he wasn't willing to bring them in, but he wanted their supplies and weapons, the only option was to kill them.
I think that people tend to overreact on these message boards sometimes. We've only had one episode with the Gov. so far...whether or not he is Evil Personified isn't really an interesting question to me. That's something that the show will develop. Sometimes the rabid and rapid dissection of the current t.v. landscape is tiresome.
October 30, 2012 at 12:51AM ESTPerd Vert Interesting arguments, although I do think the sadistic slaughter of the fun loving soldiers was a pretty clear indicator that the Gov is supposed to be pretty evil.
October 30, 2012 at 7:02AM ESTBut reading your post makes me wish they would have shown the Gov in a more nuanced way - like a version of what Rick could become.
The idea that a battalion of heavily armed soldiers are roaming near the town could pose a serious threat and a wise leader would have to consider preemptive action and he wouldn't have the luxury of finding out if they are nice guys or not - just like Rick didn't have the luxury of trusting Randal.
Unfortunately, the show seems to shy away from ambiguity. Last season they ruined the Randal story by revealing that he was likely a rapist and made his allegiances clear before he died. Wouldn't it have been more powerful if we were left wondering if this was just an innocent kid - a classmate of Maggie's - who just happened to get caught up with the wrong crowd?
They also blew it with Shane, who had to go completely batshit soap opera villain crazy instead of just being a passionate guy who had some valid ideas, but often went too far and was too much of a hothead to actually lead.
SlackerInc BBQ, I thought it was clear that their friendliness was precisely what got them killed. But again, if the Governor didn't want to bring them into the community, he could have just taken the middle course: not ambushing them, not taking them in, just avoiding them.
October 30, 2012 at 10:12AM ESTI do think Perd Vert makes an excellent point. The writers didn't want to take the risk of making the characters ambiguous, so they carefully placed anvils to make it clear which side of the ledger certain characters must occupy, so the audience can clearly have "white hats" and "black hats" to root for and against as appropriate.
Indeed, it would have been interesting for Randall to remain ambiguous; for the Gov to be a totalitarian who could arguably be seen as a benevolent dictator; for Shane to have an arguably valid alternate viewpoint about the best way to deal with a postapocalyptic world. Another example I'd cite on the other side is that after Lori started to get more and more audience hate, they clearly felt the need this season to paint her as Good with primary colours: she saved Herschel's life, she pulled heartstrings with her fears about her baby, she pleaded with Rick to forgive her.
The amazing irony is that despite their heavyhanded, anvillicious attempts to make it crystal clear that Shane and the Governor are "baad, mmkay?", there are still clearly many who see them as good or at least not so bad (just as there are many who stubbornly refuse to see that Walter White has crossed to the dark side in BB). One wonders what level of moustache-twirling would be necessary to make such viewers see them as bad!
@Slackerinc: The BB fans who defend WW as still a "good guy" just baffle me. I wonder if it's because they feel they can't like a bad guy...I've never understood it.
October 30, 2012 at 12:43PM ESTI agree with your assessment of Lori...god I hate that character. It's because they are so heavy handed that makes her character unlikable...that and her bug eyes.
bbq_hax0r Slacker and Perd Vert, very good comments. Perhaps part of my frustration is because I feel like this show with its canvas of post-apoc allows various perspectives and be used to challenge conventional thinking. They are trying very hard to say "x is good" and "x is bad". Which is extremely frustrating and Shane is a great example.
October 30, 2012 at 2:46PM ESTShane by all accounts was a crazed unstable person, yet he was doing certain things that, under zombietime circumstances, made sense and sometimes put him in a better position than Rick (think back to hiding the guns or not carrying them). So the show would simply just make Shane crazier and crazier so we had no choice but to hate him and all his actions rather than explore various perspectives.
As for ambushing the army guys, I can't say that's the best decision, I'm just saying that there is some logic in it and doesn't necessarily indicate one as evil. Its also not like they could easily avoid them, they are stationary in a town. The military is clearly scouting (with the helicopter and perhaps other means) and are within a decent drive from the village. Perhaps they are a marauding band of soldiers raping and pilaging, exploiting their prior status as "good guys." You don't know, and it's about how much risk to your survival you are willing to take. In the lawless wild wild west of a zombie apocalypse, there's an argument to be made, better safe than sorry.
SlackerInc BBQ, there is some logic in it but it is twisted, paranoid logic. I can't see how it can be applied consistently without going down the rabbit hole of locking onesself up, solo, in a bunker with food and a cache of weapons, and then killing any other human you encounter (which is I think the basic plan of your average survivalist). I suppose you could do like Saddam Hussein or Napoleon and trust your relatives, but assuming the black and Asian dudes are not The Guv's "brothers from another mother" (or father), I don't know how he can be that paranoid without constantly worrying that they will pull a coup d'etat. Where does it end?
October 30, 2012 at 3:20PM ESTGajic
October 29, 2012 at 1:44AM EST Reply to CommentKudos to the writers for sticking to one story for an entire episode. Walking Dead, like many other dramas, suffesr the problem of having too many stories going on at once so they never advance any of them. I like that all the episodes so far have been focused and driven about one thing. I didn't mind spending the whole show with Andrea if it meant a focused story. I for one preferred spending a whole episode at the prison then a whole episode in Woodbury rather than jumping back and forth for the last two episodes. Now if only Boardwalk Empire could learn that lesson.
Elevation
October 29, 2012 at 1:49AM EST Reply to CommentThis is a total guess, I have a feeling we're going to see that the scenes in Woodbury were a flashback and that the Governor is the person looking at Carol in present day.
Michonne was too cartoonish. We know the Governor is bad because it's a TV show, but her constant suspicion felt fake.
keith She's getting back to her voodoo roots. Being an insurance underwriter from Cleveland can't change the nature of the black woman. (Seriously, why is no one else stunned at how racist Kirkman has been with this character?)
October 29, 2012 at 2:38AM ESTSlackerInc Yeah, I think that's a legit critique, Keith. Sigh. And in the same show that named it's other black character "T-Dog", ugh.
October 29, 2012 at 2:43AM ESTshortstopk Keith, I feel like your interpretation is the one that's racist here. I'm not trying to say you are one, but voodoo had not occurred to me. I saw your comments a couple weeks back, but don't remember them very well. She has dreadlocks and is perhaps - only perhaps - too badass in a way that's unearned. Wielding a katana is again perhaps cheesy, but it's certainly not a racist move on the Kirkman's part. Maybe if she was Asian. She's very scowly and poorly drawn so far, but this is the same show that has at various times allowed Merle and Andrea to be shown that way too. More to the point, we just don't know how she arrived at using a a katana and became proficient with it. In Kirkman's defense, this is a world in which a person in the right circumstances could quickly become hardened and suspicious, and a sword isn't a bad weapon for killing zombies.
October 29, 2012 at 8:37AM ESTAbove, she just doesn't match any black female stereotype I've seen before and I don't know where you're coming from. That voodoo comment is just odd.
shortstopk ugh, sorry for the typos
October 29, 2012 at 8:38AM ESTDREA Thank you SLACKERINC and SHORTSTOPK. I was pretty much trying to explain those same points in response to KEITH's accusation that Michonne was a racially stereotypical character a few weeks ago. Michonne may be a cartoonish or "comic booky" character but simply is not a stereotypical depiction. We don't see depictions like Michonne often at all. Now T-Dog on the other hand...
October 29, 2012 at 10:11AM ESTDREA @ KEITH Where is the voodoo association with Michonne coming from? Is it her dark skin, dreads, sword/survival skills?
October 29, 2012 at 10:34AM ESTkeith Her intuitions, her zombie entourage... Literally the only thing missing is a patois accent. T-Dog isn't a racist stereotype, he's just a stereotype. Kirkman is very bluntly revealing his views of black women.
October 29, 2012 at 12:41PM ESTMark in Omaha Reply to Elevation, it might have been a flashback, but that would mean it was "winter" and the grass is green in the town. Not that they pay attention that kind of detail, but just saying. Andrea mentioned the same timeline of leaving the farm so it couldn't be that much different between groups.
October 29, 2012 at 2:14PM ESTKeith, if you go looking for deliberate racial stereotyping in TV shows, you can find much better examples elsewhere. I think you are reaching a little too hard.
keith I'm not saying Michonne is racial stereotyping - that would be T-Dog. I'm saying she's racism. She betrays a deep corruption in the soul of the writer.
October 29, 2012 at 2:39PM EST
I don't remember another episode of this show getting dissected as much as this episode has. While it's entertaining to read some really well thought out opinions, it's also a little heavy-handed. As for Michonne and the stereotyping...I think the argument that she is a stereotype is a valid argument. She isn't nearly as bad as Tara from True Blood though...she was the main reason I stopped watching that show.
October 30, 2012 at 12:57AM ESTWhether or not Michonne is a black stereotype needs a few more episodes...she really hasn't done much yet, so we can only go by her appearance (which I admit is rather racist feeling).
I think a stronger argument can be made that she's a cardboard comic book cut out.
Perd Vert If anything is racist it's constantly stretching to show that anything having to do with a character who happens to be a minority is racist. It's racist for a black woman to scowl? Seriously? What if she smiled all the time? Oh, yeah, she'd be a "sambo," which is racist. Is there a specific ratio of facial expressions that a black character can display without being a stereotype?
October 30, 2012 at 7:44AM ESTBefore this season the show was racist because there was only one black character. This season there have been several black characters - including a strong, independent black woman - but it's still racist.
It must be horrible in Hollywood that these black performers are forced to take on such degrading roles. How can they stand it?
shortstopk I will say there may be some latent racism in the fact that she's gotten to say maybe 5 or 6 very short lines so far, similar to the T-Dog situation. I kept waiting for her to speak.
October 30, 2012 at 9:16AM ESTSlackerInc Perd Vert, how about if she wasn't one-dimensional in either direction, but just a regular person who had different moods and got their fair share of speaking lines? If she acted more like Maggie, for instance, I don't think anyone would have a problem--or if they did, I'd join you in rolling my eyes at it.
October 30, 2012 at 10:17AM ESTPerd Vert SLACKERINC, That's fine. I don't mind people critiquing her characterization. I just don't see why race has to always come into it. This show has had no shortage of one dimensional, pointless and or unlikable characters over the years who have been criticized by fans, but if the character is black, some people have to connect every little thing back to race.
October 31, 2012 at 1:19AM ESTCould you imagine if Lori happened to be black? You would have seen endless comments about how she's a racist caricature of an angry, promiscuous black woman (or whatever), meanwhile, at the same time all the fans who hate on her would be racist and so on.
keith I'm confused at people who are saying Michonne isn't racist because you haven't seen her character before. You've seen her character dozens of times! She's always been Haitian or African though. Saying that a middle-class American woman would become a voodoo sterotype just because she's black is EXACTLY what makes it racist.
October 31, 2012 at 10:00AM ESTSlackerInc Agreed, Keith. She hasn't pointed at someone and cursed them or thrown chicken bones in a pile and muttered ominous portents, but still.
October 31, 2012 at 10:18AM ESTkeith No, she's just scowled with her dark intuitions and zombie entourage.
October 31, 2012 at 10:51AM ESTBigDerf Michonne being a bad character has nothing to do with race. The zombie entourage does not equal voodoo, that's a gigantic leap to make. And being suspicious of people who bring you somewhere at gunpoint, take your weapons and basically wont let you leave isn't dark intuition, it's common sense. The constant single scowl also isn't racially charged, just shitty acting and/or directing.
November 4, 2012 at 3:01AM ESTJon
October 29, 2012 at 2:10AM EST Reply to CommentI've only read a few of the comics, before the introduction of the Governor. Unfortunately, I already knew he was the season's villain from the news and things leading up to this season. But even without that knowledge, I think his basic character type is a pretty standard story trope. The mysterious leader of a seemingly perfect community is always bad news. Making him a normal, nice guy would have been the more radical option.
This episode did present him as an interesting character though. No religious fervor or maniacal attitudes. He seems reasonable. Learning what makes him a villain is an interesting storyline. I just hope he has an interesting perspective on things, and not the standard religious or militaristic fanatic.
Regarding Michonne, I also know nothing about her except that comic fans love her. She has potential, obviously, because of her skills and ingenuity, but right now, her constant brooding scowl is a turn off. Its so one dimensional since we have no history with her. All we know is that she's angry and smart. Hopefully, things will flesh out in the next few episodes.
bbq_hax0r Good comments Jon.
October 29, 2012 at 2:18AM EST
ditto
October 30, 2012 at 12:59AM ESTkeith
October 29, 2012 at 2:35AM EST Reply to CommentMeh episode.
ides
October 29, 2012 at 3:09AM EST Reply to CommentDallas Roberts. . . a full-on Rubicon crossover - I'd pay to see that. I had the same problems with the finale that everyone else did, but I really loved what the show was trying to do. Truxton Spangler and Kale Ingram versus zombies? Yes, please.
As for the governor. . . it seems so obvious that the character SHOULD be evil that my mind was spinning for ways that the he might not be. The world of the show allows for very complex motivations, and I like to be surprised.
shortstopk
October 29, 2012 at 8:46AM EST Reply to CommentI would have been suspicious of the Governor the entire time even without knowing of his character in the comics, but honestly up until they ambush the National Guardsmen I didn't see any evidence that the Governor was a bad guy. Creepy, sure, but I kept waiting for a reason why anyone wouldn't want to live there and I found most of his actions pretty defensible. Taking the weapons, the secret lab, the whispering - all of that could be justified. Merle would have been the biggest tipoff, but we don't know how much Merle has been toning his act down, or if he's genuinely changed in some small way.
Bryan L
October 29, 2012 at 9:14AM EST Reply to CommentMichonne's suspicious nature seems justified to me. Presumably, that's one of the traits that's kept her alive. And if every remaining bit off civilization has descended into savagery, that would only get reinforced.
This is about the part where I stopped reading the comic. Alan called the comic "misery porn," and that's what chased me off. It's hard for me to believe that there are NO survivors who aren't psychotic scum. That's actually what I liked about the whole nursing home segment in season 1. The comic never showed anything like that.
I know nothing about Michonne's background (remember, I stopped reading the comic), but I find it reasonable to assume she studied or trained in katana-style swordfighting at some point. I read an apocalyptic fantasy novel some years back that had an interesting premise: a disproportionate number of survivors had participated in pre-industrial role-playing hobbies, like the Society for Creative Anachronism and Civil War re-enactments. They were better prepared to cope with civilization's collapse. So I find Michonne more plausible because of her 'hobby,' not less.
And seriously, if your life is constantly at risk, EVERYTHING needs to be examined suspiciously. EVERYTHING. Rick is finally learning this, after much too long. It just makes sense for Michonne to be this way. I will say, the scowling is a bit much. Yeah, might be smarter to at least pretend to go along with the Gov for a bit.
Dr. Gross
October 29, 2012 at 10:11AM EST Reply to CommentI was pretty bored by this episode, but I wonder how much of that had to do with the fact that I read the comic and thus already knew the Governor was bad news. I'm curious to hear if those who have not read the comic felt differently.
Printin' Mike
October 29, 2012 at 10:28AM EST Reply to CommentThe scowling has got to stop – Michonne reminds me of the mute, little, feral kid in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome (only, without the depth and intelligence of the kid). Really, really annoying.
The portrayal of the Governor wasn’t bad, at first anyway (although, they certainly should have ditched the “no name” bullshit). But, the real problem is the portrayal of Woodbury itself. In a believable reality, there would be tens of thousands of Woodburys throughout the nation – and we wouldn’t have been subjected to the incredibly stupid scene of Andrea being astounded that this little village exists. “Wow – you have, like, a fence, and you patrol it and shoot zombies? Wow! That’s incredible! And, you have food and stuff? Unbelievable!” Please shut up Andrea.
The National Guard unit: so, we’re made to believe that they were doing great, plenty of food, ammo and such. Then, one person got bit and utter chaos ensued with everyone fleeing their posts and running/flying hither and yon. Come on, man. Please writers, make up a more believable story. You want to show the Governor as EVIL – that’s fine. But, can’t you do it in a more compelling and believable way?
The zombies. As many viewers are starting to notice: the zombies really aren’t much of a threat, and so the entire foundation upon which the series rests is incredibly weak. The weak and perilous condition of zombies undermines the “complete collapse of civilization” plotline. Either you need really strong and fast zombies, or you need to take a very, very different tact with the surviving humans and our civilization. The condition of society in TWD is utterly at odds with the threat of the zombies created by TWD.
So much in this episode was just so very comic-y. And, that’s not a good thing.
guest You realize in most zombie fiction the biggest threat is from the humans . And how we always revert to our old self destructive ways . If all the humans worked together they could take our the zombies but they never do
October 29, 2012 at 2:35PM ESTPrintin' Mike @Guest - I honestly don't care about what is or isn't common in zombie fiction. All I know is what is presented on the screen in TWD – and, what I see on TWD are zombies who aren’t much of a threat. It wouldn’t be necessary for “all humans working together” to take them out – it would only take about one platoon of trained military personnel per US state working together to take them all out. Now, being as cynical as I am, I do acknowledge that most people are idiots and might: a) keep zombies in a barn and feed them chickens; b) cut off their arms and jaws and keep them as pets; or c) cry hysterically and, instead of hoarding ammo and guns, make midnight runs to the local pharmacy to get pregnancy tests. But, even accounting for a large number of idiots, it would still be quite easy for small groups of sane folk to remove the zombie threat without incident.
October 29, 2012 at 3:44PM ESTPrunellaV The walkers are a threat in herds, however.
October 29, 2012 at 8:43PM ESTPrunellaV Also, civilization is in peril because so many people died in the epidemic and its effects.
October 29, 2012 at 8:44PM EST
I can suspend belief for how/why the zombies have over run the country (or world)...I'm ok with this premise as long as other aspects of the show try and deal with the situation in a realistic manner. That, I believe, is why so many people on here are reacting to Michonne and the Governor. These characters, especially Michonne, feel contrived and comic bookey and this is hard to swallow (given that we are already swallowing the zombie apocalypse pill).
October 30, 2012 at 1:04AM ESTDaniel Given a very conservative estimate that at least 99% of the population has turned into zombies (that's 98,000 survivors in Georgia alone), a small band of survivors needs to secure only one gated community, or small island (and go on raids for food and supplies) to be safe for quite a while, provided it takes a bite to infect someone.
October 30, 2012 at 5:08AM ESTSo, any effort to try and kill 99% of the population who are no un-dead is going to be an impossible task.
Why no one thought of doing this in the first month I have no idea, even if they tried and failed.
Zoobie Zoo The twist that everyone is infected is a good one, in that it makes it impossible for survivors to simply hole up and escape the threat. All it takes is for one person to die unexpectedly and go on a rampage.
October 30, 2012 at 7:57AM ESTThis doesn't answer all of your questions, but it helps somewhat.
Mark in Omaha Daniel, your estimate is too high, Rick threw out 60@ last week, which seems too low. But assuming your numbers are correct, if each of those 98,000 survivors killed 5 zombies a day, 280 days (weekends and holidays off) then after one year they would have killed 137,200,000 zombies. Not an impossible task, assuming that once you "kill" them they stay "killed".
November 2, 2012 at 1:45PM ESTDaniel @Mark In Omaha That is an impossible calculation. How many zombies has Carl killed, or Carol?
November 3, 2012 at 1:12AM ESTIf 90% had turned into zombies, then one in ten people would still be alive, which is clearly not the case in The Walking Dead. Maybe 90% might have turned into zombies in the first stage, but by the next three months (series one) that figure must have approached 99%.
In all the time at the farm in series two, there were scarcely any days when everyone would have killed five zombies.
Cody B
October 29, 2012 at 10:37AM EST Reply to CommentOk, maybe I missed something but how does Andrea not know that everyone is already infected? She's been with the main group the entire time up until they left the farm and they all knew that everyone was already infected. What am I missing?
sepinwall As I recall, Rick told everyone that they're all infected in the season 2 finale, after they'd been separated from Andrea.
October 29, 2012 at 10:43AM ESTCody B Ohhhhh that's right, now I remember. For some reason I thought the whole group had known since the CDC. Forgot Rick kept it to himself. Thanks for clearing it up, it was driving me crazy.
October 29, 2012 at 11:41AM ESTbelinda
October 29, 2012 at 10:38AM EST Reply to CommentWelcome to the Woodbury, bitch!
I was so so so relieved that Merle turned out to be just some minion in Woodbury.
I'm confused though. Andrea didn't know about people turning without getting bitten?
read the comment above yours for answer.
October 30, 2012 at 1:06AM ESTjim
October 29, 2012 at 10:52AM EST Reply to CommentWhat`s creepy is that the heads were LOOKING AT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!
Nomers
October 29, 2012 at 12:30PM EST Reply to CommentGreat episode! David Morrissey makes The Governor seem almost charming. But you can tell pretty quickly that he's NUTS! Looking forward to the conflicts between Woodbury folks and Grimes Gang ('cause I'm assuming they won't all get along).
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