Review: 'The Walking Dead' - 'I Ain't a Judas': Family reunion
Andrea tries to broker a peace between the prison and Woodbury, but is anyone interested?
Laurie Holden as Andrea in "The Walking Dead."
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A quick review of tonight's "The Walking Dead" coming up just as soon as I finish my run...
The pre-credits sequence to "I Ain't a Judas" pays lip service to the idea of Rick stepping down as leader of the prison group, but nothing really comes of it. Instead, he remains in charge, and having already driven away Tyreese's group — which will lead to even more problems now that they're in Woodbury — he and Michonne combine to make Andrea feel so unwelcome at the prison (a place that's opened its doors to Merle, after all) that you can't entirely blame her for declining the perfect opportunity to rid the world of the Governor once and for all.
For the most part, I think the show has done a good job of letting us see how Andrea, knowing what she knows, might be taken by the Governor. The problem is that we know a lot more, and Andrea — who already has a history of loudly, stubbornly backing the bad guy(*) — comes off looking wildly unsympathetic at best, and a plot device at worst. (Though Michonne comes off worse either way; the idea that she went back to Woodbury just to hurt Andrea's feelings is pretty awful, and not what that character needed at this stage of her relationship with the audience.)
(*) Note that when she surveys the remains of the group from the farm, she asks after Shane, and then Lori, but has to be reminded about T-Dog. (Twice, no less!) Even the people who knew him can barely recall T-Dog's existence.
Still, I thought "I Ain't a Judas" did a good job of showing how much the group has changed since Andrea last saw them, whether for good (Carol has really blossomed), for ill (Merle is there, and trusted with assault weapons) or for both (Hershel lost his foot but is a far more assertive person — and interesting character — than he was on the farm). And putting Tyreese into Woodbury at least keeps our sympathies from being entirely one-sided; we don't know the guy well, but he's very decent and got a very raw deal from Rick.
Keeping in mind the usual spoiler rules — no talking about the previews, no talking about the comics, no talking about other knowledge of upcoming stories and episodes, etc., etc., etc. — what did everybody else think?
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February 24, 2013 at 11:22PM EST Reply to CommentA frustrating wheels spinning episode that seemed to do a half hour's worth of story in an hour.
Chris
February 24, 2013 at 11:34PM EST Reply to CommentI disagree about Michone. It seemed to me like she didn't go back to Woodbury because she wanted to hurt Andrea. Rather she went back to expose the Governor for who he really is, knowing that it would hurt Andrea in the short term, but better for her in the long run. At least I was hoping that was her thought process...
Ed Agreed. I saw her saying "I knew it would hurt you" as her saying "I knew it world hurt you (as a repercussion, but it was necessary)," not as "I knew it would hurt you (and that's exactly why I did it)."
February 25, 2013 at 12:16AM ESTI was on the hate Michonne bandwagon when she was silent in the first half of the season. So I have to give credit when the writers do get it right. She's finally opening up, and I'm beginning to enjoy her character. (The "Gestapo" line was great.)
SlackerInc Agree with both of you.
February 25, 2013 at 12:52AM ESTSterling Mallory Archer Yuup.
February 25, 2013 at 1:22AM ESTDr. Gross This is correct.
February 25, 2013 at 2:05AM ESTJonas.Left The best part of the "Gestapo" line was Merle's matter of fact reply. He's so dumb he didn't realize it was an insult.
February 25, 2013 at 2:30AM ESTSlackerInc Yup, he seemed to even think she was throwing him a lifeline, like "there ya go: they had an excuse, and so do I".
February 25, 2013 at 2:54AM ESTI think it stretches credibility (not to mention morality) for them to take Merle in after all he's done.
Jonas.Left I think whether they keep Merle is a matter of pragmatism rather than morality. They need all hands (and stump knives) on deck. If Merle screws up again, they should dump him, but for now another gun is more important than grudges.
February 25, 2013 at 3:53AM ESTI have a feeling either Glenn or Michonne will be the one to kill Merle, and that it will be in a way that will not have the audience cheering. I think when he goes he'll have our sympathy. Just a theory.
GRubi Yeah, but they really really want Daryl back, and without Merle, there's no Daryl. Plus, Merle sorta saved Rick's life, so he kinda owes him. The only real problem is how they honestly expect Glenn (and to a lesser extent, Maggie), to live and with Merle. I think they need to seriously address that more.
February 25, 2013 at 4:07AM ESTSlackerInc I see the gears grinding and groaning as they try to engineer audience sentiment. It just doesn't fly with me. Either he's too loathsome ever to be redeemable, or they just rewrite his character and it loses all believability that it's the same guy.
February 25, 2013 at 4:17AM ESTAnd as Grubi says, it's ridiculous to expect Glenn, Maggie, and let's not forget, Michonne, to tolerate him. Even the idea of Merle as another hand (stump) on deck is suspect, given that with him around they also have to watch their backs all the time.
And why are we leaving out Rick, when the last we heard Merle was nursing a big grudge against him for handcuffing him to the roof? He is more trouble than he's worth, even if we disregard the moral reasons to banish him.
GRubi Well before, Merle didn't know that Rick went back for him on the roof. I think Merle has quasi-forgiven Rick because of that and understands that he definitely can't go back to the Governor. Thus, he knows he doesn't really have any other choice. Plus he sees that he would most likely be dead to his brother if he did anything to Rick.
February 25, 2013 at 4:24AM ESTSlackerInc I see the gears grinding and groaning as they try to engineer audience sentiment. It just doesn't fly with me. Either he's too loathsome ever to be redeemable, or they just rewrite his character and it loses all believability that it's the same guy.
February 25, 2013 at 6:36AM ESTAnd as Grubi says, it's ridiculous to expect Glenn, Maggie, and let's not forget, Michonne, to tolerate him. Even the idea of Merle as another hand (stump) on deck is suspect, given that with him around they also have to watch their backs all the time.
And why are we leaving out Rick, when the last we heard Merle was nursing a big grudge against him for handcuffing him to the roof? He is more trouble than he's worth, even if we disregad the moral reasons to banish him.
Darkdoug Aside from what he did in support of the Governor, Merle wasn't that bad, and DID get a raw deal from Rick & co, probably worse than Tyrese got. It was T-Dog who was even more to blame than Rick, since pragmatism and hindisght justifies Rick's actions with Merle, but T-Dog's clumsiness and cowardice were what really cost Merle his hand.
February 25, 2013 at 8:44AM ESTYes, Merle might be a racist, but so what? As long as he doesn't act on it, what do his beliefs matter? Isn't equality regardless of creed supposed to be an ideal? Would it be okay for the group to excluse someone because he was a radical Muslim or born-again fundamentalist Christian? As long as each kept it relatively under their hats and pulled their weight, we'd say that either was welcome in the group. The more subdued Merle, who as Herschel pointed out, has a vested interest in getting along with the group that has his brother's loyalty and affection, has certainly fit that criterion. Does it mean Glenn or Michonne has to remember that in a pinch, Merle would save someone else before helping them? Yes. But then Maggie would save Glenn first, either of the girls might save Herschel first, Rick or Carl would help each other first, and so on. Everyone has preferences and whatever their reasons, so long as they don't act in ways more harmful than anyone else, the minutiae of those reasons should take a backseat to survival.
Nobody is who they were that first day in Atlanta, so judging Merle by his behavior that day is kind of an unfair standard. Remember, Andrea assaulted Rick just because he had the nerve to not be careful for the sake of people he did not know were there. Her at-the-time inability to commit effective violence does not mitiate her girly-punches at a stranger.
Anyway, one of the most exasperating things about Lori's and to a lesser extent, Andrea's, arcs last season was their behavior being inappropriate for the circumstances. Moaning and whining about giving Carl a gun, dithering about her pregnancy and "bringing a child into this world", setting off on a solo drive with a gun bouncing on the car seat beside her... All of these were things that could be tolerated in an intact 21st century setting. In a zombie apocalypse, those kind of things are luxuries you cannot afford. Likewise the politically-correct, thought police mentality. There is no polite company anymore, and excluding someone for using racial slurs makes about as much sense as excluding them for bad table manners.
Based on the unliklihood of his retaining loyalty to Woodbury, and his actions since leaving that place, there is no reason not to take in Merle, and Rick is handling the situation exactly right (note he's also keeping Michonne and Merle apart when he's not around to handle things), and the way I was wishing they would have during their argument on the road.
Printin' Mike @Chris: Michonne went back to expose the Guv – how exactly? Through interpretive dance?
February 25, 2013 at 10:15AM ESTWhy can’t we have a simple scene where she lays it all out to Rick’s group (using the English language) – and exposes a bit of her background story in the process? Does she even have a background story? Or, is she just a prop? If TWD took the time to write this character, the audience might actually care what happens to her. As it is, she ranks lower than T-dog in audience sympathy.
Gregory To the OP, exactly. She was not trying to intentionally hurt Andrea but she knew it would be a consequence because Andrea wanted to believe in the Governor so much she was blind to what he really was, a power hungry narcissist.
February 25, 2013 at 10:23AM ESTFroide @Jonas.Left The best part of the "Gestapo" line was Merle's matter of fact reply. He's so dumb he didn't realize it was an insult.
February 25, 2013 at 11:50AM ESTDoesn't Merle's motorcycle have some kind of neo-Nazi insignia on it?
SlackerInc @DARKDOUG Just...no.
February 25, 2013 at 3:41PM ESTJonas.Left FROIDE I know Daryl rides that motorcycle with the Nazi ornamentation, but I don't remember if they established it was Merle's. Given that cars, trucks, and bikes are waiting to be claimed on any road and urban area, it might be vehicle they acquired randomly like Glenn's sports car from the first season.
February 25, 2013 at 4:25PM ESTNot judging Merle by his personality defects is reasonable. Not judging him for threatening to kill a half dozen people during the events of the second episode is dumb. Its also pretty stupid to equate what Merle did to Andrea slapping Rick. Of course that's nothing compared to the idiocy of equating racism to religious identities. On the other hand, the notion that judging somebody for being a racist is in itself intolerant is on a level of illogic that is astounding.
I'm not a parent myself, but I imagine many parents could relate to Lori wanting to shelter her son from the harsher realities of a world that are dramatically worse than anything she could have envisioned him having to face.
dbmurph22 To the OP, thanks for clarifying this re: Michonne. I took it that way as well, and thought I had missed something when I read Alan's review above.
February 25, 2013 at 4:27PM ESTDarkdoug Jonas, what exactly is illogical about my position? It might be wrong, but I suspect you are abusing the term, out of a reflexive reaction. My position is the logical extention of a generally accepted notion, whereas you appear to be conflating the terms "illogical" and "wrong". Why is one set of beliefs (religion)sacrosanct and acceptable, and another (racial issues) not? I freely admit that my personal belief in the equality of people regardless of race is not grounded on any sort of scientific evidence or rational proof. There is not and can be no proof of that idea. A racist is no worse than an aetheist, for refusing to believe in an equally unproven and abstract concept so along as their ACTIONS do not result in the abuse of anyone else.
February 25, 2013 at 5:46PM ESTWhile in normal circumstances, Merle's attitudes and beliefs would suggest exclusion, his demonstrated loyalty to his trustworthy brother and levels of badly-needed skills, as well as his willingness to admit the error of previous actions and apparent amenability to cooperation all suggest that whatever his private opinions, adding him to the group would be a definite plus.
For narrative purposes as well, Merle makes a good addition. With things as stripped down and elemental as they are in a zombie apocalypse, the issues of conflict on this show can be kind of stupid, when all the characters are ostensibly focussed on survival. At this point, survival is such a basic thing, that arguing about it just makes one party look stupid. Merle seems to be more of a gray area on the survival scale (do his personality issues offset his potential contributions, etc?), which means his rejoining the group should provide for some more plausible conflict hooks.
dbmurph22 I can see the addition of Merle as plausible, because the show is supposedly about things boiled down to their most basic - ie survival. In regards to that aspect Merle is a welcome addition and there are such checks as his association with Daryl and a mutual antagonism to the Governor.
February 25, 2013 at 5:59PM ESTI don't think there's enough selling in regards to the history and with those he's had the greatest present conflicts with, such as Glen. There's been some screaming and yelling come from those such as Glen, but I just don't buy it completely. And it's probably for that reason, not because there isn't a way for it to be plausible. I think Merle coming back could have been a great plot device. And you make a good point Doug about the potential tension re: survivalist needs vs. interpersonal. But as it is, it comes off as pasted on to me.
Jonas.Left Racism is racial intolerance. Therefore tolerating intolerance is a logical paradox. Its like the anti-gay christians who argue that anti-discrimination laws violate their civil rights to discriminate against gay people. Tolerating a position that is based on dehumanizing others is the exact opposite of tolerance.
February 25, 2013 at 8:48PM ESTI actually don't consider relgious ideas sacrosanct. I think like all ideas they should be evaluated based on merit. I do believe that the adherents of any religion should be respected unless they practice in a way that disrespects others' rights. Racism, by definition, can never be a benign belief system.
As for Merle in particular, I like him as a character and I like how he complicates the group's dynamic. I think there are practical reasons for the group to keep nim. I just don't agree that he should given a clean slate.
SlackerInc Spot on, Jonas--brilliantly argued. I think you just won the Internet!
February 25, 2013 at 10:44PM ESTJonas.Left SLACKERINC Thank you.
February 25, 2013 at 11:20PM ESTHISLOCAL There's a type of racism that's ignorance (using terms like "chinaman" and "colored"), and there's racism that would actually lead a person to drag a person to death behind their truck. It seems like we're arguing about the first type of person, when the real issue is that Merle is the second type of person.
February 26, 2013 at 1:29PM ESTI thought Merle's re-emergence as a full blown villain was awesome, but I think they've bungled it. A better show would have let Merle be the Big Bad for the whole season, torturing and killing people while the Governor stayed outwardly benevolent and unaware (to us) of Merle's brutality. Then, in the penultimate episode, the Governor scapegoats Merle, but actually lets him die horribly, and it reveals the Governor to be the one ordering Merle to do the torture, and we find out that he was the true psychopath all along.
Soot Yes, the bike that Darryl was driving is Merle's bike and it has the SS symbol on it. The SS was mostly responsible for the war crimes, so it's quite a statement.
February 28, 2013 at 1:21PM ESTSlackerInc
February 24, 2013 at 11:48PM EST Reply to CommentWasn't it just last week that someone in these comments complained about the Talking Dead promos? Voila: they changed it from the obnoxious host guy to the classic announcer style.
David (@chudleycannons) They changed it last week.
February 25, 2013 at 3:46PM ESTMike
February 24, 2013 at 11:51PM EST Reply to CommentDid they change which eye is injured on the Governor?!?
Ed No. In Talking Dead they explained that the eye-patch scene was a shot of the governor in a mirror.
February 25, 2013 at 12:08AM ESTFroide He was looking in the mirror. Shame on the filmmakers for not making that reaily apparent to viewers, rather than forcing them to either wonder whether they made a blooper or to consult other media to learn about the mirror image.
February 25, 2013 at 5:41AM ESTFroide The bird's-eye camera work near the ep's conclusion (before we see Andrea in bed with the Governor), reminds me "The Sopranos", too ("Funhouse"). On TWD, we see Rick's group going about their business inside the prison, the walkers who've overrun the yard shambling around outside as if they own the place, the van-placement showing how much ground the prion group has lost (including a nice greenspace where they could enjoy being outdoors, where Hershel wanted to plant crops, and where those lost were buried), the Woodbury soldiers manning the barricades, and the peaceful, appealing Stepford-like Woodbury grounds.
February 25, 2013 at 5:59AM ESTHere's Wikipedia's description of the parallel shots on "The Sopranos: Funhouse": "The episode ends with a montage of Tony's two families celebrating Meadow's graduation, interspersed with the images of the various illegal enterprises through which Tony makes his fortune—Barone Sanitation, an adult movie theater, a person selling calling cards on the street, Teittleman's motel, the now-abandoned office where the "Webistics" stock scam took place. Carmela looks for Tony among the guests, finding him standing by himself in a corner of the living room, slowly lighting a cigar and blowing out the smoke, with a far-away look on his face. It then fades into a shot of the ocean at sunset, the waves crashing on the shore."
Pickle Face It seems pretty obvious he's looking at himself in a mirror. Why else would he hold a match up to his eye?
February 25, 2013 at 8:38AM ESTFroide @Pickle Face: I figured it out for myself, too (wouldn't most people change their eye patch before a mirror?), but substantial social media buzz indicates that scene gave many people pause...so in retrospect, a slight glimpse of the mirror itself would have prevented that.
February 25, 2013 at 9:44AM ESTFroide Oops! I omitted to say: I like subtlety, but not all audiences do...and TWD has an audience that likes to nitpick.
February 25, 2013 at 9:46AM ESTChester
February 25, 2013 at 12:52AM EST Reply to CommentI -- for one -- am glad to know what even in a post-apocalyptic hellhole environment, the genius of Tom Waits' music is still being appreciated.
Jonas.Left Nothing against Tom Waits, but is his music what you'd use to cheer people up in hell?
February 25, 2013 at 3:56AM ESTGRubi Yeah, his voice doesn't exactly lend it self well to being "uplifting," does it?
February 25, 2013 at 4:09AM ESTDarkdoug The first song that Beth sang in the prison was hardly cheerful either. "The Parting Glass" with the words "that I should rise and you should not" seems more than a little inappropriate for a zombie apocalypse.
February 25, 2013 at 8:48AM ESTJonas.Left I'm trying to put myself in Beth's head when she picks songs. "Should I sing something happy and upbeat or something haunting and poignant to our dire situation? Whichever, it should be something relatively obscure that a music supervisor would pick if our lives were a t.v. show. Certainly not a song that the average girl my age would know word for word."
February 25, 2013 at 4:36PM ESTHISLOCAL Haha! Don't you know that good ol' southern girls don't have time for your fancy eye-phones and carly ray jepsens, and that they listen to "real" music by crusty old troubadors??
February 26, 2013 at 1:36PM ESTJonas.Left If someone started singing "Call Me Maybe" I'd toss them to the walkers myself.
February 26, 2013 at 3:59PM ESTkro_lin
February 25, 2013 at 1:36AM EST Reply to CommentWhy is it taking so long to get where we all know this has been leading? The governor/rick story line could have been a half of a season. I'm tired of it.
Michonne...please just die already.
So many people hated season 2...but season 2 had some really compelling story lines that were not obvious...such as Carol's girl being a walker in the barn, Shane and Dale's death, and the barn/farm burning down.
This season is just spinning wheels until the final showdown between the governor and rick. Kind of tired of it.
What are they going to do for the next few seasons? Just have the characters wonder around, finding new hideouts and fighting new big bad guys? I think they need to shake some stuff up here...maybe try some flashback episodes next season or something.
It's just one long zombie movie. I don't think I can expect anything more than that.
I do like Hershel (and like Maggie and Glen when they are talking) and I like Daryl and Carol a lot. But good god Rick is awful. He isn't as bad as Lori was...but he needs to leave the show I think.
The Governor is a terrible character...and they really haven't bothered to develop anyone from Woodbury, with the small (and pleasant) exception of Milton.
Seriously...how does this show have any steam going into a fourth season? Can anyone on this message board come up with a good scenario for these characters moving on after this season?
Having said all that...I still like it. I just wish it was better than it is.
February 25, 2013 at 1:40AM ESTSlackerInc Season 2 had my favourite episode of the series: "Nebraska". Some of the others around that one were real good too.
February 25, 2013 at 11:11PM ESTbbq_hax0r I suggested that they ditch the whole community thing, and take a small group (say 2-4) and have them explore and survive in this post-apoc zombified world. Traveling to survive and seeing what has become of humanity. That would be interesting, and easy to pull off, no?
February 25, 2013 at 11:24PM ESTHISLOCAL One cool thing they did was show us a new group of survivors, and we're wondering who the hell these people are and why we should care what they're doing, when they find shelter.......in the other end of the same prison our guys are in. That was a good, Lost-esque way to introduce new people. Then they just squandered it by having them sit around for awhile until Rick started shouting at the ceiling, and then they left.
February 26, 2013 at 1:40PM ESTSlackerInc Good point, HISLOCAL.
February 26, 2013 at 5:54PM ESTJim It seems like the producers are slaves to the sets most likely for budget reasons. That's why we stayed on the farm all last year and at the prison/Woodbury this year.
February 27, 2013 at 8:21PM ESTI don't think they could afford BBQ_Hax0r's good idea.
SlackerInc Another good point, Jim. Wasn't there actually a budget cut to the show last season?
February 27, 2013 at 8:50PM ESTI have also wished for a long time they would get out of Georgia. (My favorite episode of the series, "Nebraska", offered us a tantalizing hint of the goings-on elsewhere, not just in Nebraska but in Philadelphia. But that is even more of a budget issue: Beyond the expense of shooting on multiple locations, there is a notification in the credits that they receive funding for tax breaks from the state of Georgia. So we are not likely to leave the state anytime soon.
Bryan L I really wish the show was the one outlined by BBQ_Haxor, too, but I think the budget issues are the biggest problem there. Changing locations every week would be expensive. That said, I think there's a lot more they could do in Georgia. How cool would it be to see the crew have to stage a raid on a WalMart? Maybe the baby needs formula and the smaller stores are out. Luring as many zombies out as they can while a small team sneaks in as quietly as possible? That would be a lot more fun than this Woodbury endless back-and-forth. Even the fight on the bridge last week was a welcome change. But it's cheaper to stick with the same old sets and backgrounds, so they do.
March 1, 2013 at 10:25AM ESTdbmurph22 The whole episode of Nebraska wasn't great but it still has the best scene and one of the best characters/actors even with just 5 min of screen time (the bar scene with Michael RaymondJames). So it's one of the best for me because of that glimpse. And it offered us a larger world that's out there. The point on budget is a good one and too bad because I want to feel the world of this zombie plague and the two location soap doesn't do it for me.
March 2, 2013 at 5:24AM ESTI also liked 18 miles out (didnt seem as serialized) and those other surrounding eps during that time more.
Beekayz
February 25, 2013 at 1:54AM EST Reply to CommentDid anyone else have flashbacks to 'American History X' when the zombie teeth to the rock (curb) head splitting scene happened?
Jonas.Left Exactly. Its much worse when the guy getting curb stomped is alive. One of the most horrific screen deaths ever. Ironically, its become a beloved staple of the Gears of War video game series.
February 25, 2013 at 2:09AM ESTFroide I was reminded of both "American History X" and "The Sopranos" ("The Second Coming"), when Tony "chair-stomped" Cuco for menacing Meadow, and wondered while Andrea was placing the walker's teeth on the stone whether or not she'd damage its brain sufficiently to completely vanquish it [as happened in the movie) rather than merely knock its teeth out.
February 25, 2013 at 5:46AM ESTSlackerInc Froide, I couldn't help but think it was a little inconsistent how they just seem to tap walkers on the head with any blunt object and put them down, but all that mashing on this one's head only knocked its teeth out.
February 25, 2013 at 11:12PM ESTJonas.Left SLACKERINC I think it would have been funny if Andrea tried it a couple times before she got it to work. Sort of a Goldilocks and the Three Bears situation, except with zombie stomping. "I crushed his head just right."
February 25, 2013 at 11:26PM ESTBeekayz Zombie Stomping can be so 'hit or miss'.
February 25, 2013 at 11:34PM ESTFroide Goldilocks Goes Gangsta.
February 26, 2013 at 12:05PM ESTjoel
February 25, 2013 at 2:09AM EST Reply to CommentHow hard would it have been for Merle to tell Andrea what really happened with the National Guard? Surely that would have changed her opinion of him. I actually liked this episode in many respects, but the writers seem intent on having these characters skip over the most basic information simply to allow them to move headlong into poor decisions. It's the same issue as Michonne not bothering to tell anyone at the prison about Andrea, or Andrea apparently never telling Michonne about the people she was with beforehand.
Another simple plot annoyance: it would be easy to clear the walkers out of the outer perimeter: just coax them to the fence and brain them through the chainlink. But they apparently can't repair the gates, so that may be a lost cause.
Disappointed to see Tyrese in Woodbury and hoping he realizes his mistake before it's too late.
Jonas.Left If Merle told anyone about the National Guard massacre, he would be implicating himself as well.
February 25, 2013 at 3:59AM ESTPickle Face They're not dealing with the walkers in the yard because they're concerned about snipers.
February 25, 2013 at 8:42AM ESTFroide Yep. To underscore that point, we're shown Carl and Maggie peeping out from behind wooden barriers from inside the prison.
February 25, 2013 at 9:42AM ESTGregory This has been the shows biggest weakness and what destroyed season 2. The only way any plot happened was because people were not talking. Its really lazy writing.
February 25, 2013 at 10:21AM ESTI too did not understand why Merle mention it to explain why he knows the Governor is nuts.
Considering how often it happened in season 2 the few times it has happened this season is still an improvement. The only show I have ever watched that did not use that as a consistent device to drive plot and create artificial tension is Vampire Diaries.
Michael Dowling If not Merle, Michonne knows what happened at the National Guard, she saw the bullet holes and the lone living guardsman's head in his aquarium.
February 25, 2013 at 10:43AM ESTBut in this show no one seems to be able to be bothered spending 5 minutes rationally explaining things.
Merle could've told Andrea a ton of stuff and simply left out the part where he was complicit in it.
At this point Andrea is insufferable. I get what they're trying to do with her strong leadership and a female heroine type but it's not working she comes off as naive, condescending, and arrogant.
joel I think Merle torturing and preparing to execute Glenn and Maggie negates or at the very least supercedes his guilt over the National Guard. Telling Andrea about that and getting her on their side is literally a matter of life and death, Merle's included. Holding back that information does Merle no good.
February 25, 2013 at 11:31AM ESTI realize they're worried about snipers, but if the Governor returns and simply breaches the inner gate, then Rick's group is effectively stuck inside the prison. Clearing the walkers at least allows them room to attempt an escape if it comes to that.
But this group has shown little if any capacity for strategic thinking.
Ellen M. I enjoyed the episode overall but I agree that the writers have not filled in the blanks for Andrea with the other characters regarding their knowledge about what the Governor has done. I do find that annoying.
February 25, 2013 at 1:46PM ESTBut she knows about how the Gov. kept his Zombie daughter locked up and a number of other unsavory things he's done. So, she does look petty bad at this point. But Woodbury may be the reason she came back - it's better than living in that prison. Plus, she may be able to turn the Woodbury folks against the Governor eventually. So for me, the jury is still out on what I think of Andrea.
dbmurph22 I'm interested in the Tyreese in Woodbury element. It bothers me a little these characters are shuttled back and forth like a soap opera, but Tyreese was good character - and likable, who was run off by Rick. And we are still invested in Rick's group, of course.
February 25, 2013 at 4:30PM ESTThe Governor has big numbers, so I'm guessing these sort of things are being introduced to possibly even the odds. Despite the conflict with Rick I can see Tyreese still siding with the prison crew, especially if he sees/receives some questionable treatment in Woodbury, which seems likely.
kyledaley
February 25, 2013 at 2:13AM EST Reply to CommentDidn't find this episode slow, there was a palpable building of tension, an escalation as both groups harden their resolutions and arm for war. I liked the solidarity and decision to get aggressive by the Prison group. Also, for the first time Merle showed that he might be able to fit in and be a productive member of the group. He's never going to be likeable, but I enjoyed the scene with he and Hershel, it showed maybe there's maybe more to Merle than meets the eye. Also Hershel recognized that he could be an asset and that there is mutual need for both parties if he can become a member of the group.
Elevation
February 25, 2013 at 2:22AM EST Reply to CommentTonight's episode was fine. Wasn't really anything too bad or too good.
Michonne might be the worst written character on television.
bbq_hax0r But Michonne is opening! She's becoming a valued member of this group! She is willing to accept Rick as the crazy leader for some odd reason despite his open freakouts yet knew it in her gut the Governor was evil because, of, her gut? She's the bestest!
February 25, 2013 at 11:29PM ESTMark
February 25, 2013 at 3:01AM EST Reply to CommentNice to hear Tom Waits' 'Hold On' in the final scenes. And the piano music the Governor was Chopin, a nice piece commonly known as 'raindrops' or something. Best bits of the episode for me...
Bob7
February 25, 2013 at 4:33AM EST Reply to CommentI don't think there is a best and worst with Andrea. She is all plot device. She is designed to move the plot at the expense of any consistent or intelligent or real character. Her affair with the Governor and her conflicted loyalties has no basis in anything. It started ten seconds ago for an actual like for him and changing of her mind there is. There is no chemistry between the two. She just met him and betrayed her friends, and became, very, very, very stupid. I don't know about the comics, but the TV Andrea is not a person but plot mover and contrivance. I wouldn't be surprised if next week she revealed herself to be an alien or kangaroo. That's just as consistent and lazy with how she's already been portrayed.
Jonas.Left How exactly did Andrea betray her friends? She's been advocating for them to The Governor since she became aware that they were in conflict with Woodbury. I would argue her conflicted loyalties are quite credible. She likes Woodbury, its people and the semblance of civilization it represents. She also still considers herself a part of the group she survived with for so long. Isn't it reasonable that she wouldn't want one of them to wipe out the other?
February 25, 2013 at 5:18AM ESTMichael Dowling Michonne saved Andrea's life for the better part of 8 months, without her Andrea is dead after Herschel's farm was overrun.
February 25, 2013 at 2:27PM ESTYou don't just let her walk off into the zombie woods by herself after a week in Woodbury and with the governor. At that point the Gov was supposedly nice and they were free to come and go. If Michonne felt that strongly it made no sense for Andrea to turn her back on her and let her walk off alone.
Also she spent over a year with the other group, she KNOWS those people. If they're fighting for their lives against the Governor, she should be able to assess that something is really wrong. She got in her car and drove away from Michonne and Rick's group, she owed them more than that.
Bob7 @Jonas.Left: The show's characters are the weakest spot. They're not so much full people but argument-generating machines. You could take two of them arguing, switch to two others, and they'd still have the same scene. Andrea was as Michael points out nursed back to health by her friend who took care of her for a long time. Before that, she was part of the group that lived and died together for a long time. Now, she could be mad at them for not trying to find her, but she that would have been difficult for them as they were all scattered and she went with Michonne anyway. But if she is, that wasn't communicated by the writers.
February 25, 2013 at 4:28PM ESTShe instantly fell in love with the Governor without preamble, ignored her much more experienced friend to be with him, stayed behind, believed everything he said, again just because the writers wanted her to instead of an organic reason, and even when she found out that he was evil, still took his side or didn't kill him. She could have fallen in love with him enough that she would have divided loyalties but we didn't see that. It was love at first sight, and you need something stronger if it's going to change your character that significantly. As I said, this is bad writing.
bbq_hax0r Andrea was with Rick's group, what 3-5 Months... max? With Michonne 8 months. With Woodbury for like 2 weeks - 1 month?
February 25, 2013 at 11:35PM ESTI don't get how she betrayed her friends. They left her behind, she apparently was too sick all 8 months with Michonne to even have a conversation with her, and wanted to help the people of Woodbury, feel some sense of normalcy, and possibly mitigate the Governor. Hmm.
HISLOCAL Why does Andrea have so much authority in Woodbury? She's been there for like a week, and she can just barge into Milton's house, or the Governor's office, and demand answers? I get that the Governor slept w/ her, so she feels like an "insider" and the other people in town might think she's sleeping her way to the top, but there's no way the Governor would actually put up with her, right?
February 26, 2013 at 1:47PM ESTp.s. - LOL @ "not people but argument-generating machines". This show has more arguments than Real Housewives.
fbihop
February 25, 2013 at 5:27AM EST Reply to CommentAndrea is my least favorite character in the show. While many people make dumb decisions, she does so for reasons that don't make sense even in the context of the zombie apocalypse.
Staying at Woodbury? I can see it. Staying with the governor? Makes no sense at all.
Darkdoug What I feel is the most consistent character trait of Andrea is her desire to be important. She's a lot like Nucky Thompson & Margaret from Boardwalk Empire that way. She joined in with Woodbury because she initially had access to the leader. Then she tries to go make peace, because it makes her a big shot. She let Michonne go, even though she had spent even more time with her than with the rest of the group, because on the road, she'd be the junior partner. In the beginning, she was the most resistant to doing the work that the women (who, by sheer coincidence, all happened to lack any hunting or combat skills) ended up with, and she was the most overtly demonstrative of her nascent combat skills. She insisted on taking the shot on what they thought was a lone walker approaching the farm, despite shooting into the sun, at a very long range, using a valuable bullet (a non-renewable resource, with civilization collapsed), with absolutely no experience and friendlies in her line of fire. It's a good thing her shooting was worse than her judgment, or they'd have lost Daryl, who was worth about six Andreas.
February 25, 2013 at 9:12AM ESTWhen she was taking shooting lessons, she stalked off alone, in a huff, in strange territory, endangering not only herself, but the members of the group who would surely have gone looking for her if she didn't return. As it was, she and Shane had to waste precious bullets bailing her out of her fix. And the reason for her snit? Shane was not polite or awestruck by her ability. Shane was a professional, and IIRC, an actual shooting instructor, and the noob took exception to his teaching methods. The actual fight with the zombies demonstrated the efficacy of those methods, but he was not suitably respectful of the girl who had recently wounded one of their top three fighters by ignoring the advice and example of every single more qualified individual in the group.
During their sojourn at the farm, Andrea could often be seen "keeping watch" atop the trailer...when it was not necessary and only served to help her avoid housework and maintenance chores. On the road, with limited fields of vision, and many hiding places for zombies, or at the quarry, where the height afforded an important vantage in uneven terrain, yes. It was a good lookout post, which is why Dale and other smart people did that. At the farm, with no walkers nearby (as far as they knew) and wide open fields of vision, it was a negligible advantage. But it was a way for Andrea to posture and act self-important.
We saw her doing a similar thing during the fighting in Woodbury. Experience and teamwork are very important in such situations, especially when firearms and innocent bystanders are involved, and Andrea had not trained with the Woodbury guards at all. Yet, she refused to get out of the way, and tried to show off and play badass. We saw it in these last couple of episodes, with her swaggering around with her sidearm prominent on her hip, and butting into the draft dispute. For what it's worth, the Governor was probably right to give the asthmatic kid the gun - he certainly isn't going to be in shape to fight walkers hand-to-hand or outrun them. Merle's recommendation to Michonne about remembering the cardio felt like a shout-out to "Zombieland" which stressed the importance of running stamina against zombies, but an asthmatic kid can't keep it up. The "don't give kids guns" position was among the more indefensibly stupid Lori-isms from last year, but Andrea is still carrying that torch, or at least using that "child soldiers" crap as an excuse to interject herself into the leadership.
The group was right when they called her out on the messiah complex, but I'd have to deny the contagious part, since the Governor and Andrea both had full-blown outbreaks long before they swapped bodily fluids.
Froide Right on, DarkDoug. One other sign of Andrea's need to feel important has been her rooster-strutting walk. Gee, that gets on my nerves. She surely didn't walk that way when hanging out with Michonne or when visiting Rick's prison.
February 25, 2013 at 9:52AM ESTMichael Dowling The problem is people like Michonne, Glenn, Merle, and Maggie are all being vague about what they know about the Governor. Andrea now knows he shot up the prison, but she also knows that Rick's group shot up Woodbury. No one has really sat Andrea down and told her the whole story, it's annoying.
February 25, 2013 at 10:10AM ESTDarkdoug I think Andrea knows the context of why they shot up Woodbury, she knows they were trying to rescue Glenn & Maggie, she knows that they stuck Daryl in a zomebie gladiator fight, and she knows the Governor lied to her about his intentions and his actions on his visit to the prison. This is not a case of miscommunication. Even if it hasn't been explicitly laid out under the eye of the audience, everyone knows the pertinent details, and Andrea even got an explanation of Michonne's actions and motives. The only excuse for her to refrain from putting down the rabid dog in her bed is her own motivations, not any sort of lack of information about who and what he is.
February 25, 2013 at 10:54AM ESTMichael Dowling @Darkdog -
February 25, 2013 at 11:18AM EST1. Darryl was put in a gladiator fight after being caught killing 6 Woodbury residents, not exactly humane but in the context of what was going on and the fact of what's around them isn't exactly too outlandish.
2. The governor lied about his intentions at the prison - again he is running the show and planned an attack on people who just shot up his area and killed 6 people. Seems a reasonable response for a leader to do.
What Andrea does know may show her that the Governor isn't as nice or honest as she thought. However it doesn't show her that he is a cold blooded murderer who keeps Woodbury stocked by murdering rival groups. That is a far cry from attacking a prison or putting a captured person in a fight with Merle (a traitor).
joel @Dark Doug: I agree with your commentary on Andrea, but her ignorance of the Gov'nor is the fault of Merle and the group. She thinks Merle was acting alone, and seems unaware that the Gov'nor condoned and participated in Glenn and Maggie's torture and interrogation. She also has no idea that the Gov'nor ordered and participated in the slaughter of the Nat Guard troops. She thinks this is ultimately Merle's fault, and that Rick and the Gov'nor are escalating this based on ignorance of each other and mistaken assumptions.
February 25, 2013 at 2:56PM ESTAll it would take is for Merle to explain either event to her. I bet Merle knows of other bad things the Gov'nor has done. Merle has this very clear and concise conversation with Hershell, which is all well and good but does them no favors. Having that conversation with Andrea might have saved some lives.
chiefdeputy Andrea's character is annoying, and the actress conveys nothing, but in DARKDOUG's explanation it does make sense, especially when you consider the welcome she received at woodbury vs. the rude greeting she receives at the prison - treated like a traitor/stranger when SHE doesn't see herself that way. Understandable from the prison group's perspective - she has been fucking the evil enemy, but she sees herself very differently. plus, all the people she sided with in that group are dead.
February 26, 2013 at 11:11AM ESTHISLOCAL DARKDOUG's writeup is so spot-on, but what kills me is that she isn't presented as an annoying character. Don't know if any of you watch Enlightened, but the main character is so frustrating because she's so self-important, but that's the point of that show - we're SUPPOSED to be frustrated by her. In this show, I think the writers truly believe that we should be outraged at whatever Andrea is outraged at, which is outrageous!
February 26, 2013 at 1:55PM ESTFroide
February 25, 2013 at 6:07AM EST Reply to CommentCarl's a brave and tactful kid; I like the way he softened his message telling Rick to step down, telling him Rick deserves a rest.
Froide
February 25, 2013 at 6:09AM EST Reply to CommentAnyone else find humorous the "mime in a box" act by the walker who came this close to grabbing Andrea's face through the fence Rick had thrown her against?
Froide
February 25, 2013 at 6:12AM EST Reply to CommentNo surprise that it was rednecked Daryl who said about Axel (another redneck who'd lived a hardscrabble lifestyle and a worrisome brother who got him in trouble): "We liked him. He was one of us."
bitchstolemyremote
February 25, 2013 at 9:49AM EST Reply to CommentFound the episode frustrating. We don't entirely agree with you, Alan, that we know just why Andrea is so taken by The Governor (especially when she has much longer and more intimate relationships with Team Grimes and Michonne). In our view, she's a plot device.
Our take: http://wp.me/p2MfmI-2gn
RU Serious
February 25, 2013 at 10:03AM EST Reply to CommentAndrea (to michonne): "What did you tell them?!?"
Michonne: "Nothing." God damn right. And I also though the T-dog thing was a little meta commentary, too.
The less this show features Andrea, the better. She's on a growing list of unredeemable characters. And I wish they had thought of the idea that they'd have to reunite Merle with this crew, and done a better job of rounding him out, rather than making him just "Redneck Racist Asshole." He can't say three sentences without something ridiculously racist coming out of his mouth. I'm not saying don't make him a racist. I'm saying that he can certainly be a racist, and most of us will identify that as a character flaw, without him saying "Wetbacks" or "Camel Jockeys" or other stuff like that in THIS context. There's a lot of ways to make a character both interesting and unsympathetic, but this isn't an effective one. Him and the governor both are basically moustache twirlers, it's annoying. I wish there was a little less comic book-y edge to these people, the idea of the show is a really fertile one, but it's just taking easy shortcuts.
And please god, SHUT UP WITH THE SINGING. That's all I want one character to do the next time another bursts out into song to unite the group. "There's a waaaaaallll...." SHUT UP please!!!
I think we saw the shift from Ricktatorship to Triumverate during that terrible "I'm singing" scene at the end.
Ugh, this show sucks. WHY DO I WATCH AND COMMENT, there I beat you all to it.
RU Serious
February 25, 2013 at 10:05AM EST Reply to CommentAND if Michonne and Andrea spent time as lovers, I wish the show had the courage to come out and say it, not hint around it. "I didn't choose him over you" is not something you say to friends. Then you have her close it is "YOu chose a warm bed over a friend." FU, walking dead.
Michael Dowling It seems like they were lovers and Michonne is actually more jaded at the Governor for stealing Andrea away than she is for him being a twisted sociopath dictator.
February 25, 2013 at 10:38AM ESTFor some reason AMC seems to shy away from actually coming out and saying it. It's the year 2013 and I think we're all grown up enough to handle it. I would assume both lesbians and gay men would be around during a zombie apocalypse.
Froide Michael, I agree that viewers could handle a gay relationship, but I don't think that's what Andrea and Michonne had. In fact, I got the distinct impression that the show implied that only rednecks (Axel and Merle, respectively) concluded that Carol and Michonne were gay. That impression was underscored when Andrea was on her knees, hands up, in the prison yard, and the camera panned among Andrea, Michonne, and short-haired-not-a-lesbian Carol. I interpreted that as Andrea's having developed sisterly bonds with both women.
February 25, 2013 at 11:18AM ESTMichael Dowling Well I'm not talking about Carol, she was married and they've never dropped any hints as to her having a relationship with another woman.
February 25, 2013 at 11:31AM ESTHowever with Andrea and Michonne they seem to have alluded to a more intimate relationship between the two.
Lisa Choosing one's new boyfriend over one's friends is actually something that happens in life, and makes friends upset. So I think it is something Michonne and Andrea might fight about, as friends.
February 25, 2013 at 12:13PM ESTI don't think they were lovers, either. Andrea is pretty hetero. Also, unfortunately, she seems to derive some of her sense of self from whatever man she is involved with (we saw this with Shane as well). This tendency in a woman can also be very irksome to her more independent female friends.
Froide @Lisa: Ditto.
February 25, 2013 at 1:30PM EST@Michael: I know you weren't referring to Carol. Nonetheless, parallels exist and I pointed those out.
HISLOCAL What would be interesting is if Michonne held Andrea in her arms and nursed her back to health for 8 months, and even if they didn't have sexual relations, Michonne still thought it was an intimate, romantic relationship. Then Andrea meets a hot guy and just ditches her. THAT would be interesting television. But, this is the Walking Dead, so instead they just have some random stuff happen.
February 26, 2013 at 2:01PM ESTMichael Dowling
February 25, 2013 at 10:07AM EST Reply to CommentWhy is no one in this show capable of explaining to anyone what is going on? 90% of this stuff can be handled with a simple 10 minute explanation.
Tyrese's group for example, some one could've said "hey look the guy is mid breakdown, let him rest and we'll talk in the morning". Michonne could've explained to Andrea 100 times and Rick's group 100 times what was going on way early on and started prepping for the Governor, Glenn and Maggie wouldn't have been caught in the first place. But they never do. Even when Rick told the story about Shane he did a terrible job explaining the events to the group.
I mean Michonne KNOWS that the Governors men killed all the military guys, she saw the bullet holes and the guys head in an aquarium, but she never once tried to explain that to Andrea who still believe the Governor is decent but between a rock and a hard place. Did anyone tell Andrea the governor made Maggie strip and threatened rape or to cut off Glenn's hand? No one? Wouldn't that have been good information to convey? Had they done so maybe she drops that knife in his chest...
It's like they are purposely vague for no reason at all and it's infuriating.
RU Serious My god, I couldn't agree more. SOMEONE say "let's take a breath here, now tell me what happened." The problem then is like 90% of the show's conflicts go away.
February 25, 2013 at 10:17AM ESTAlso love how they're concerned with "Snipers in the trees". Based on the governor's tactics (one sniper shot then raining machine gun fire at no one in particular), I wouldn't be so worried about snipers. The right nove if you have a legitimate sniper is to crash the van into the compound, then just shoot whoever comes out to try to close the gate or whatever.
"A wooden pallet isn't going to stop a bullet!"
But that aluminum cabinet will.
dbmurph22 This is what interests the audience - that we know more than the characters know of and communicate with each other. This sort of frustration is real but sort of drives audience involvement. Like the above poster said, if things were clarified then everything would go away. Misunderstanding drives a lot of drama.
February 25, 2013 at 4:35PM ESTHowever, I do think the show has taken too big a liberty with this device (of characters not communicating everything). For example, it took a lot of eps for the group to know Michonne was with Andrea (thank you Michonne muteness!).
I think this sort of plot/character device can be useful, fun, and interesting but again, it's been a little extra frustrating they've relied on it this much.
HISLOCAL I understand why shows don't show us the actual sitting down and explaining, but on most shows there would be the understanding that it happened at some point (like Rick's explanation of killing Shane - what we saw was bad, but you just kind of assume that he gave them more details later). But on this show, it doesn't happen offscreen either. So nobody knows anything about anyone. I'm surprised they know each other's names.
February 26, 2013 at 2:05PM ESTGregory
February 25, 2013 at 10:16AM EST Reply to CommentAfter the freight train that was the first 8 episodes, the past three make sense. Unlike season 2 which was spinning its wheels because it was poorly planned, this season has had an internal logic that has progressed. We needed each of the last three episodes.
With that said it will be a mistake to let the final confrontation take place at ep 16. It needs to happen sooner rather then later, followed by what should be a rather complex aftermath. The coming battle is obvious so does not need to be delayed. What I really want to see is what happens after. If they try to push that to season 4 then the show has slipped back to season 2 territory when they are simple delaying because they do not have enough story to cover.
HISLOCAL Right. Like, in a sports show, you don't want the whole season to lead up to the big game, and then end. You want the big game to be halfway through the season and our team loses, and then we get to see the complex aftermath of dealing with the loss. THAT's exciting TV. Otherwise it's just Hard Knocks.
February 26, 2013 at 2:07PM ESTBryan L
February 25, 2013 at 10:19AM EST Reply to CommentI was hoping for one of TWD's surprise endings: Either Andrea kills the Governor or the Governor kills her. I didn't really believe they would, but I was hoping. Alas, they stuck with the trite ending of Andrea chickening out.
I was also hoping that Michonne would really lay things out for Andrea. I can see why Merle doesn't want to admit his complicity in lots of murders, but there's no reason Michonne couldn't reiterate the list of the Governor's crimes. Instead, the scene was weak and flat, and because they didn't do a good job of convincing Andrea, the final scene wasn't very suspenseful.
I'd also like to see at least a few Woodbury citizens having some serious doubts about all this. I can't believe they're all completely fooled. If they're not going to kill Andrea off, I hope they'll at least start showing her talking to some of the people (like the asthmatic kid's mom) and showing some dissension. Presumably Tyreese and his gang will get in on that to some extent.
Having Beth sing is tantamount to putting a red shirt on her. As soon as a background character develops a tiny bit, they are dead. RIP, Beth.
I will say the promo has me looking forward to next week, but I don't think I can say more without violating the rules.
Michael Dowling They always do that, even when they do kill a main character it's almost always very predictable and by the time it happens it seems like four episodes too late.
February 25, 2013 at 10:35AM ESTIt would be great if they actually shook things up a little more instead of keeping everything so predictable. But it is what it is with this show at this point.
JamesG I think the title of the episode was a pretty big giveaway that Andrea wouldn't actually end up killing the Governor.
February 25, 2013 at 11:01AM ESTBryan L Yes, that's what I thought too, JamesG. But hope springs eternal. Every once in a while, they do something surprising, and I really thought they might pull something here. But no.
February 25, 2013 at 11:59AM ESTI'm really tired of Governor/Woodbury. The back-and-forth has gone on way too long. I wish they'd do something really game-changing, like say, "Screw it, we're not fighting a whole town for a broken-down jail that's now got more walkers inside than out. Pack your stuff. Let's go."
Michael Dowling I think that would be a good switch Bryan, at this point the "showdown" between Rick and the Governor will be anti-climactic. Kind of like the showdown between Rick and Shane, if that happened much earlier it would've had a real polarizing effect on the audience. But by the time it happened it was like "yawn, about time".
February 25, 2013 at 12:17PM ESTThat won't happen what we'll get is more filler episodes and a finale that ends with the big showdown.
Bryan L Well, again, it just makes sense. The whole conflict is being propped up and extended artificially. "Hey, we got two kids here, and there's a maniac with an armed mob that outnumbers us four-to-one trying to kill us. Let's hunker down and fight!" I know they've gone to a lot of trouble to show Rick as crazy, but he's not THAT crazy.
February 25, 2013 at 3:42PM ESTAnd what's the end game? Are they going to exterminate the entire town? Come to some kind of "understanding" now that people are dead on both sides? I don't see that, or even an armed truce, happening.
Yeah, there's walkers out there but men with guns are a LOT more dangerous than walkers. Tactically, Glenn and Michonne's assassination was the smart move, but that ship has sailed. Really, the only sensible option is to disappear. Leave the doors open, let walkers overrun the place, and let the Governor waste time figuring out what happened while you put as much distance as possible between you and Woodbury.
Michael Dowling A good twist would be both sides gearing up for this huge showdown and all the sudden the real problem, the zombies make it known why the show is called the Walking Dead. Have the prison and Woodbury get completely overrun right before the big battle and see how both parties handle it.
February 25, 2013 at 4:23PM ESTchiefdeputy Maybe it's just me, but I'm tired of the governor and camp woodbury because the governor is a boring and lame character with a boring and weak actor playing him. He seems to have no skills - they want to draw parallels between the governor and Rick, but there aren't any other than madness (sure, they both arm children, but carl has proven himself while the governor is just acting desperate). The governor isn't menacing, and unlike Merle, apparently has no fighting or training. He relies completely on everyone else's muscle (and 1 lackey's sniveling brain).
February 26, 2013 at 11:30AM ESTI get that the woodbury residents are "walking dead" in their own right, blindly stumbling around following the governor (or Andrea, or anyone who will boss them), but come on. One or more of his followers would have turned on him a long time ago, including Merle. If the writers can't make the governor a bad ass, there is no basis for him to be in command.
Rick has proven himself worthy of being the leader because he has shown leadership and defeated his rivals single-handed. The show has given us nothing like this from the governor, merely showing him to be bloodthirsty and crazy (and since the actor playing him comes across as soft and not scary, his character doesn't work for me).
Allyson This wasn't the first time Beth has sung to the group, and she lived to sing another day!
February 26, 2013 at 4:38PM ESTTommykey
February 25, 2013 at 1:54PM EST Reply to CommentI think this is the first episode where Michonne had about five lines of dialogue in a row. She talked more in that one scene with Andrea than she did in most episodes.
I knew Andrea wasn't going to kill the Governor because it was too soon in the season and would have destroyed any remaining dramatic tension. To be honest, I was hoping that the Governor would kill Andrea.
While I find the lack of exchange of valuable information between the characters frustrating, the people of Woodbury are an interesting commentary about how members of a group or society can be manipulated into believing another group is an enemy because they do not have access to all of the information to make an informed judgment.
The residents of Woodbury have every reason to view Rick's group as an existential threat that needs to be wiped out because they are ignorant of the Governor's role in bringing about the conflict. I don't know if the writers of the show are making a commentary about how the American public can be manipulated by their own government into supporting policies they would reject if they knew all of the facts, or if I'm giving the writers more credit than they deserve.
Bryan L Yes, the "lack of exchange of valuable information" is reaching ridiculous proportions. It makes me think of Lost, and not in a good way. Why wouldn't any of these people talk to each other? They're sitting in a cell block all day, and they don't have cable.
February 25, 2013 at 3:30PM ESTdaisymae I could see a hitherto mute Michonne finally opening up with a damning speech about everything she knows and what their true options are and this speech being a really powerful moment...still waters running deep, maybe. So that Rick's crew realize that she keeps her mouth shut because she is actually paying attention and strategizing, not just reacting stupidly like everyone else (after all, she did survive on her own for all that time and protect Andrea when they got together, does she have not SOME kind of mad skillz to offer??). After the huge improvement of the first half of this season, I'm disenchanted again. We need a major Darwinian culling of this herd, with all the stupid people being cut down. But then again, there's been so much stupidity it's hard to know who exactly merits survival in a dog-eat-dog world.
February 27, 2013 at 11:38AM ESTdbmurph22
February 25, 2013 at 4:26PM EST Reply to CommentI just don't care for this season at all. I would say relatively the episodes have progressively gotten better since Ep 9. But, it's only relative.
What I don't like about the show now, is that it's plastic, manufactured, predictable, and has lost all sense of wonder. The zombies are less terrifying which is fine, because humans are more interesting. But not these humans. On a show that has surprise death and general surprises as a currency, the show is remarkably stale, in a much different way than S2 was at points. In short, it's quite clear things are driven by it's popularity. There's a sense of preservation. This storyline is being strung out to span the whole season. And 60 min eps feel like they should be 30. And they aren't making much use of the extra time for the characters. I tolerated that in S2 a lot more than this season for some reason. Alan is right on about the leadership thing - Rick stepping down is being teased but the show isn't bold enough any longer to really do it. The whole hallucination storyline doesn't ring true and it's sad because I've always liked Rick's character. The show just isn't as realistic in important ways - Merle's presence at the jail is one of them. The ending of last week with the shootout and interesting aspects, but the whole thing sort of defied logic. The new guy of the group is killed but Rick in the wide open dives away from trouble.
TWD doesn't have the wonder it once did, though I admit that what made the series at its best was probably wonder and possibility in this post-apocalyptic world more than anything else (like the latter half of S2). Now that we see it, I just don't like it. The world is exceedingly small. Tyreese being in Woodbury on one hand is an interesting touch, but it does follow everything else - these pieces are moving back and forth between the prison and Woodbury, which makes some of the relationships interesting but is also very myopic. That probably is the danger in a storyline of a "duel". But they should have still not lost the context of the world, which they really have.
On the plus side I enjoyed Michonne more in this episode. I'm glad they put to rest the whole Glenn saga which I just mostly rolled my eyes at. Carol remains a good character again. I liked that asthma played an important role in the episode. Great awareness!
I can't really blame the series for its direction, because it's raking it in. And they are maintaining that...I think it would be hard for anyone to not go that direction. It's still unfortunate artistically though. However, I still enjoy moments here and there and I'll probably watch it to the finish. Last week I waited a week and came to the precipice of not going back, but I did. This week I watched it the same night - partly due to a TV vacuum (I was catching up on Thrones last week, which made last week's episode look even more silly to me).
I don't like to rip things just for the heck of it. I'm not that kind of person. I just do it to TWD because I think it has so much potential and has given us such good glances of awesomeness that it's continually frustrating to me. And this season will build to its predictable and manufactured climax with characters doing things we mostly expect and have a hard time believing. I feel like this review was done by my inner-Merle. That said, the cast would probably clap at it.
dbmurph22 To clarify, ep 10 was better than 9 and this better than 10. The earliest eps this season were the best for this season.
February 25, 2013 at 4:55PM ESTSlackerInc "Rick stepping down is being teased but the show isn't bold enough any longer to really do it. The whole hallucination storyline doesn't ring true and it's sad because I've always liked Rick's character. The show just isn't as realistic in important ways - Merle's presence at the jail is one of them. The ending of last week with the shootout and interesting aspects, but the whole thing sort of defied logic. The new guy of the group is killed but Rick in the wide open dives away from trouble."
February 26, 2013 at 4:41AM ESTWord to all of this. I wonder if these are the kinds of issues that got Mazzara fired? I have been lulled into thinking "it will just stay like this, they are raking in the ratings this way", but then I remember they fired another showrunner, so they are actually *not* happy with the direction it was going. Hopeful sign, or do the PTB want to make it even worse?
Jonas.Left SLACKERINC The only concrete theory I've seen on Mazzara's firing is that Robert Kirkman wanted more creative control and didn't like Mazzara's contributions. Many people have suggested that the television version of The Walking Dead is best when it diverges from Kirkman's original comics version. If that's the case, Mazzara's firing could be a sign the show will get worse,, since the show would presumably become closer to Kirkman's vision. Of course, if you prefer the comics its a good sign. Many posters say they like Andrea in the books, but hate her on the show. Having never read the comic, I can't say whether a more faithful version of The Walking Dead would be better or worse.
February 27, 2013 at 4:08AM ESTSlackerInc I have seen that theory too, but it seems very speculative without any inside information. Like you, I have not read the comics, and I dislike when things start seeming too cartoonish (for instance, the Governor and Michonne). I guess though it would be all the more depressing if the show were really clicking on all cylinders right now, as it was in "Nebraska", and then Mazzara was fired. At least now we know it will almost surely change in some way; perhaps for the worse, but who knows: maybe for the better.
February 27, 2013 at 4:40AM ESTdbmurph22 I get the feeling that Kirkman is driving things which doesn't inspire much confidence in me. But I could be wrong and you never know....could pick up.
March 2, 2013 at 5:26AM ESTJamesG
February 25, 2013 at 5:30PM EST Reply to CommentI feel like this season started off great but has been dragging for at least an episode or two before the break and now for the last three. The prison setting made for an excellent location at the start of the season, but now it's just Herschel's Farm 2.0. The characters never leave the same two spots, and it may as well be any structure. I loved watching them explore it and strategically fortify/clear out the cell blocks earlier in the season. That felt like a realistic, intelligent way to portray survivors in the post-apocalyptic world. Now, it's been replaced by a contrived conflict and upcoming "war" with Woodbury. We all know exactly how this is going to play out, and it's not going to be fun enduring the filler until the last or second to last episode when Rick and the Governor square off.
Joe
February 25, 2013 at 7:04PM EST Reply to CommentAbsolutely no sympathy for Tyrese or his group. They quickly forgot how they were saved by Carl in the prison. Now we see his true colors being that he is ready to swear loyalty to whoever treats has it better than him. How could you look at both groups and decide the right choice is to wipe out a bunch of survivors taking shelter in a prison. Looks like Rick knew better (again) than to let them infiltrate the group. At least with Merle he makes no excuses for who and what he is nor does he play for sympathy to hide his true intentions!
Minmin No they didn't. They said that the rest of the group was all right, but the leader was crazy. (Not an exact quote.). Said leader's craziness got them ejected from a safe haven. If they believe that said crazy leader is about to attack and endanger the safety of others, I can see how they would ally with the Gov. If anything, he is coming across as quite a sane person in his dealings with Tyreese's group.
March 2, 2013 at 8:42AM ESTMy desire: in the coming conflict, the governor is killed (by a zombie? By Tyreese? Or by one of our intrepid survivors? That doesn't matter so much). But Tyreese then becomes the new governor, but one who governs out of necessity, not a messiah complex. And as leader, he has to figure out what to do with ricks group.
How about that for a story arc?
Dan
February 25, 2013 at 7:44PM EST Reply to CommentAndrea is so stupid. So unbelievably stupid. It's painful to watch. It makes the show much worse than it actually is.
This episode was definitely a transitional one.
Blake
February 25, 2013 at 10:17PM EST Reply to CommentThis season is an improvement; at least they're not yammering on incessantly about their relationships.
But still, bring on the new showrunner. People are still acting illogically, even for an apocalypse. Michonne's silent act has grown old. Let's see who survives the inevitable season-ending war, and maybe restart next year with some more compelling new characters.
The only ones I hope survive are Darryl, Carol (way more interesting than in the comics), Glen, Maggie, Carl, maybe Herschel. I know Rick is the star but this version could really take a nice left turn by dumping him. The rest of them are expendable.
bbq_hax0r
February 25, 2013 at 11:11PM EST Reply to CommentI love how Michonne just has some GUT feeling the Governor was evil, despite any factual/logical evidence, and is pissed Andrea "couldn't see it", yet will gladly and willing side with a leader who is overtly crazy, unhinged, and openly questionable. Poor writing there.
Nice to see that Cutty isn't as dumb as Michonne and recognizes which group appears to be the more evil/worse of the two.
Kind of a bad episode when Andrea was the one making the most sense. Man this show struggles with nuances writing. At least they got away from their rapey nonsense, which they had no ability/delicacy to pull off.
Mark
February 26, 2013 at 1:02AM EST Reply to CommentI think Tyrese's group is a Trojan Horse. Interesting how we didn't see them for a week and a half, then they show up in the forest. I think Rick planted them to do just what they described to the Governor - to earn their way into the prison group.
SlackerInc Wild theory! If they do this, I will consider it unearned as they just didn't show anything that would plant the seeds of it being plausible.
February 26, 2013 at 4:43AM ESTHISLOCAL It would be kinda plausible if it was Herschel who planted them, behind Rick's back. Still not totally earned, but it would make more sense.
February 27, 2013 at 3:00PM EST- 1
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