Review: 'The Walking Dead' - 'Arrow on the Doorpost': A drink before the war

Rick and the Governor try to talk through their differences

<p>David Morrissey as the Governor on &quot;The Walking Dead.&quot;</p>

David Morrissey as the Governor on "The Walking Dead."

Credit: AMC

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A review of tonight's "The Walking Dead" coming up just as soon as I bring my butler...

Often with serial television, there's a debate over which is more important: the journey or the destination? "The Shield" (where Glen Mazzara used to work) was a show with a memorable journey, but what ultimately elevated it was where the story finished up. "Lost" (which Mazzara talks often about admiring) is a show where the final destination angered many, but where others could fall back on how much fun they had along the way.

With "The Walking Dead," on the other hand, I'm finding myself oddly more interested in the detours than anything else.

I found last week's "Clear" to be probably the show's best episode since the pilot. It was an hour that had precious little to do with the arc of season 3 — any excuse at any point in the series could have been used to send Rick back to his hometown to run into Morgan again — but the character stories it told and the sense of creeping dread throughout had me much more engaged than I've been lately by the impending war between the prison and Woodbury.

"Arrow on the Doorpost" is an episode that's even talkier and more contemplative than "Clear," which had several action scenes compared to essentially one here. (And this one was treated mainly as an excuse for Daryl and Martinez to bond; there was never meant to be any sense that the characters were in danger.) There's tension throughout — Can Rick and the Governor broker a peace? Will the Governor pull that gun he has taped to the table and just put a bullet between Rick's eyes? Will Merle show up with a duffel full of guns and make everything worse? — but it's constructed as an opportunity for our hero and his chief antagonist to spend their first real time together before the killing resumes.

And it mainly made me realize how little I care about the Governor, because I kept wishing the episode was taking place primarily outside the parley room. When we got a few minutes with Martinez (a complete non-entity before this episode) being human and reflecting on who he was before the plague (and complaining about Daryl's choice of cigarette), or Milton interviewing Hershel for his history of early post-apocalyptic life, I was engaged and entertained. I even enjoyed Andrea realizing she's a woman without a country; as with the way Lori was written in the episodes leading up to her death, it was a case of the show acknowledging that they had sent a character down a path where most of the audience had grown to hate her.(*)

(*) It's a useful trick, but a better one for the long-term creative health of the show would be to take these characters off that path long before they reach the point where they have to be ostracized by their peers to reflect the feelings of the viewers.

The Governor, though, feels like a character the show still doesn't entirely have a handle on, even in his 10th episode as part of the series. At times, he's held up as someone who's simply approaching the apocalypse differently from Rick — and who, based on the relative health of Woodbury, might have the right idea. And then there are other times where he's just a two-dimensional villain, with an added layer of crazy to make sure we don't start rooting for him ahead of Rick. Shane suffered from this kind of inconsistent characterization, too: some weeks, you were meant to question whether he had the right idea about things and Rick was too stuck on the days gone bye, while in other episodes, he was just a glowering bully looking to take what he felt was his. David Morrissey's doing the best that he can to weave these two sides of the character into a cohesive whole, but it's not really working.

"Arrow on the Doorpost" spends a lot of time trying to draw parallels between Rick and the Governor — notably how each man lost his wife without having a chance for one final conversation — but even though Rick is crazier and colder than he used to be, he's still not at the level of the many things we've seen the Governor do (or, in this episode, plan to do). Last week, Rick didn't save the hitchhiker, but nor did he kill the guy just so he could take his pack. It's a minor distinction to the hitchhiker, but a major one for those of us with a global view of the show.

And now this season's endgame hinges on Michonne, who's also been a cipher for much of the season, albeit better integrated these last few weeks. It's possible the remaining episodes will bring back the momentum of the fall installments, but "Arrow on the Doorpost" and "Clear" keep leading me to imagine alternate versions of the series (albeit ones that will never exist so long as the ratings are this enormous), whether a Morgan-centric story or simply a zombie apocalypse anthology offering very different kinds of stories set in the same universe — one where, for a week, someone like Milton can be the most important character, rather than an accent to the Rick/Governor showdown that's supposed to be the most compelling part of the season.

Some other thoughts:

* The zombie apocalypse doesn't lend itself particularly well to prolonged sex scenes, but we got one between a reconciled Glen and Maggie. (And it was preceded by a darkly funny joke about how Glen can't have sex with the walkers leering at them.) Was I the only one, though, who spent that entire sequence waiting for some kind of attack (be it by walkers or by the Governor's forces) to happen while nobody was on watch?

* On the streaming screener, I didn't get a very good look at whatever prosthetic they duct taped to Hershel's leg so he could walk and drive the car. Anyone get a better sense of what they rigged it out of?

* Last week, several of you said it looked like Rick and Michonne wound up taking several bags of guns from Morgan's stash, and that was clearly correct based on the arsenal set up in the prison common room.

Once again, let me remind you again of this blog's No Spoiler rule and how it applies to this show, as I've had to delete a bunch of comments the last few weeks that violated it. Basic things to remember before commenting:

1. No talking about the previews for the next episode.

2. No talking about anything else you know about upcoming episodes from other sources — and, yes, that includes anything Mazzara and Kirkman have said in interviews.

3. No talking about anything that's happened in the comic that hasn't happened in the TV show yet. (Or anything that's been revealed, like character backstory and motivation.) As with "Game of Thrones," the goal is to treat "The Walking Dead" TV show as exactly that, and not as an excuse for endless comparisons with the comics. If you want to talk about the comics, feel free to start up a discussion thread on our message boards.

With that in mind, what did everybody else think?

Alan Sepinwall may be reached at sepinwall@hitfix.com

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Alan Sepinwall
Sr. Editor, What's Alan Watching
Alan Sepinwall has been reviewing television since the mid-'90s, first for Tony Soprano's hometown paper, The Star-Ledger, and now for HitFix. His new book, "The Revolution Was Televised," about the last 15 years of TV drama, is for sale at Amazon. He can be reached at sepinwall@hitfix.com

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Next 239 Comments
  • Happycat_talkback_profile

    bhietanen

    The show really needs to grow the world of the show next season. The best parts of the show (and Jericho) were when they expanded the world. It's too small and I just don't care enough about most of these characters.

    March 10, 2013 at 10:11PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Bill I remember a very brief flashback scene of Shane seeing an army like atmosphere with planes and bombs when it was first going to hell. I want to see flashbacks to how the plague happened and the immediate aftermath.

      March 10, 2013 at 10:21PM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r The world is the star of the show, not the characters. Having a select group of characters exploring and surviving in that world would do wonders.

      March 10, 2013 at 11:52PM EST
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      Jim Not gonna happen. AMC doesn't want to throw that much money at the show. Maybe the huge ratings this year will get them to loosen up the purse strings.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:28AM EST
    • I agree that this show needs to open up. I also agree with Jim that it's not going to happen.

      Alan's review really captured how I feel about this show right now.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:39AM EST
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      tomaydoe Me too. This is a perspicacious review. I agree with everything he said. I gave up on WD at a certain point last season. I'll probably stick with it this season but boy does this show test the viewers patience. While watching, I'm always thinking: this show could be much better than it is.

      March 11, 2013 at 11:05AM EST
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      come back shane Can this show really be much better than it is? I'm not so sure. Perhaps this is the reason zombie plots work better in movies and miniseries.

      I understand this show is based on a series of ongoing graphic novels, but unless you're going to lift the books page-for-page the long-term prognosis for five, six, seven seasons of this show are grim. Not having read the novels, I bet even they have some slow pages.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:05PM EST
    • Pompador_talkback_profile

      youngjt80 @Bill: From what I gather they aren't too interested in an orgin story. I don't read the books but apparently they don't give one there either.

      March 11, 2013 at 5:21PM EST
    • @Comebackshane. Of course it can be better. The first half of this season proved it. Clear knocked it out of the freaking park. However, they can't do it consistently and I doubt a 3rd showrunner is going to be able to fix that when it seems apparent that AMC is the problem.

      March 11, 2013 at 5:37PM EST
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    Ted

    This story line is a complete waste of everyone's time. First, 99% of the audience would be very happy is Rick turned over Michonne, the Governor killed her, and the worst character on the show was gone. Second, 99% of the audience doesn't believe for a second that Rick is going to do that. So we have a lengthy season ending story arc with no consequences and no tension. It's amazing how the writers on this show keep messing up a can't miss premise.

    March 10, 2013 at 10:18PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Roy Munson ???

      March 10, 2013 at 10:55PM EST
    • N692189568_1037235_1007_talkback_profile

      scottish_punk "First, 99% of the audience would be very happy is Rick turned over Michonne, the Governor killed her, and the worst character on the show was gone."

      You obviously DO NOT know the audience.

      March 10, 2013 at 11:21PM EST
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      Darkdoug I don't know where you and Alan and everyone else are coming from with all this attitude about Michonne. Setting aside the differences of opinion regarding the character, why is it so important that she soliloquizes about her innermost feelings in order to engage the audience? For that matter, why do we need to care about her to be concerned about the proposed trade?

      That entire plot point is NOT about whether or not Michonne lives or dies, it is about the choice being imposed on Rick. Everything the Governor said was NOT to draw parallels between them (except to possibly illustrate how much further Rick could have plausibly fallen), it was to establish the stakes for his demand. He was both intransigent about demanding the surrender, making gestures of accommodation like putting down his weapons and bringing out the whiskey to illustrate his command of the situation and exactly how determined he was to get his way.

      The image the governor is presenting is a man who CAN wipe them out and has absolutely no qualms about doing so, as well as good reasons to to attack, but is willing to be magnanimous and allow them to live if they will make a gesture.

      That is the point: to make Rick think that his only viable choice is to surrender Michonne and put his head into the trap. That's why they had him reveal his real plan to Milton - so the audience knows there is no safety in taking the deal, and understands exactly what the right choice is.

      This is not setting up some sort of debate or philosophical navel-gazing about leadership and hard choices. The show is all about life going to shit when civilization is destroyed and you have to deal with deadly (if deceptively slow-moving) threats all the time, and it has always been about Rick's struggle to balance the right thing with the pragmatic thing to do. It has never been about the debate between ethics and survival, which is why Shane's representation as the "look out for number one" character was not nuanced or two dimensional, and why he was the crazy villain. In the ethos of the show, that animalistic, every-man-for-himself attitude is part of the problem, and just another form of zombification.

      The issue being set up this season is not and never has been whether Rick or the governor is right or wrong or whose way is better. We should not have to care about Michonne to be invested in Rick's choice, only in Rick, because the show is making it abundantly clear that the right choice is NOT to give into the governor's demands. He plainly showed that compliance will only be walking into a trap.

      Rick knows what the right thing to do is as well, which is why he tells Herschel, "I'm hoping you'll talk me out of it." He is being tempted though, to trade a virtual stranger for the illusion of security. That's all there is to it. The governor and Michonne do not need to be written well enough to engage our global perspective, because the show's focus is on Rick and his choice right now. In fact, in light of the choice presented, the writers' slow exposition of Michonne has served to prevent viewers from being unduly swayed by sympathies towards a three-dimensional person, like if Daryl, Glen or Maggie was the requested sacrifice. Instead, the issue is solely on whether or not Rick will do the right thing, and possibly save most of the group, or the wrong thing and either get key personnel killed, or at best, fracture the trust in the group by demonstrating a willingness to throw certain of them to the wolves. If the showrunner admires Lost, well, try to recall that the group's motto on that show was "Live together, die alone."

      March 10, 2013 at 11:58PM EST
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      Paddy O'Furniture You're joking right? I'm going to assume this is a poor attempt at tongue in cheek humor. This exact question was asked on The Talking Dead, should Rick turn Michonne over to the governor. The response was 98% NO

      March 11, 2013 at 12:07AM EST
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      Mathias I know the audience is dumb for the most part, but I don't think it is that dumb.

      Michonne is one of the few hopes this show has.

      March 11, 2013 at 7:07AM EST
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      Michael Dowling If Rick turned over Michonne to the Governor it would make no sense at all. They would completely re-write his character.

      I think Michonne is a bad character but I don't want to see Rick simply hand her over to the Governor either. I would lose all respect for Rick.

      Once he failed to shoot the Governor when he had the chance he should just abandon the jail and go away.

      March 11, 2013 at 10:09AM EST
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      jizzmo2003@yahoo.com Somebody needs an editor really, 10 paragraphs????

      March 11, 2013 at 12:13PM EST
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      troopermsu 10 paragraphs? LOL, somebody needs to learn how to count.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:05PM EST
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      troopermsu Dark Doug: I found your analysis interesting and not worthy of the derision hoisted upon it by some others (not all). Even if we don't agree with an analysis, there is no reason to be nasty about it.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:06PM EST
    • They've failed to do anything interesting with Michonne, but the character isn't beyond reprieve like Andrea or Lori. She just needs a few more episodes like Clear. They should have let her keep her walker pets a bit longer though.

      March 11, 2013 at 5:39PM EST
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      B-Slow It seemed pretty obvious, from the characterization of the Governor thus far that he had no intention of keeping his word. I think the show has improved a lot since last season but I'm afraid they're about to engage in another infuriating, prolonged, Sofia situation.

      March 11, 2013 at 9:15PM EST
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      blackhills74 Michonne is a sexy black woman who carries a Katana Sword an knows how to use it very well to kill zombies, what's not to like? 99% my ass!!

      March 12, 2013 at 5:05PM EST
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    Rob

    Nothingburger. Last week was a thoughtful and interesting detour; this week was a maddening full stop to the action.

    Great writers aren't afraid of propelling the narrative forward quickly, because they know they've got lots of other great stuff in store. It seems this team only has the climatic battle with the governor's forces ahead and so they're dragging their feet.

    Rick should have shot the Governor in the head in the first 5 seconds. There is no other reason for him not to.

    March 10, 2013 at 10:21PM EST Reply to Comment
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      notWalt And good writing doesn't leave you dependent on jumping ahead prematurely. Not saying this is great writing, but letting this play out for another episode is not bad. We still hold out some hope for Rick's humanity and his choices.

      Shooting the governor leads to a likely massacre... even if he didn't see more of his men, I think he had to be prepared for that.

      March 10, 2013 at 10:44PM EST
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      Roy Munson Hershel and Daryl could've very likely been killed if he did that.

      Does that count as a reason not to?

      March 10, 2013 at 10:53PM EST
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      Rob At the beginning, the Governor's henchmen weren't there (for whatever contrived reason). So yes, in the very first moments he could have gotten away with it. On the other hand, I kept wanting Darrel to shoot an arrow into the Martinez. Milton would have folded immediately then they'd have the drop on the Governor.

      March 10, 2013 at 11:01PM EST
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      Col Bat Guano I don't think Rick was sure that there weren't more of the Woodbury henchmen around and so couldn't gun him down without possibly getting Darryl and Herschel killed. Also, I think he wanted to see if the Governor was as crazy as he assumed. There was always a slim possibility that some sort of deal like Andrea's might work. Now he knows there isn't.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:40AM EST
    • Flat_eric_talkback_profile

      HISLOCAL If they wiped out the Governor, Martinez, and Milton (and Andrea, I guess), who would be left at Woodbury to command an attack back on them? The asthmatic kid?

      March 11, 2013 at 8:43AM EST
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      Bill To paraphrase Merle who said it best "they are great fighters, but not killers."

      March 11, 2013 at 9:02AM EST
    • The Governor made it very clear that he had men watching their every move. It'd be naive to think that there weren't more waiting.

      March 11, 2013 at 5:41PM EST
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      Rob I guess that all makes practical sense -- I especially like the "great fighters, not killers" angle. I'm just beyond ready for someone, anyone, to put a bullet through the Governor's other eye.

      March 11, 2013 at 10:51PM EST
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    Jeff

    I think the central problem is they have never created any likeable fun characters, there is rarely any levity. Everyone broods soooo damned much and mostly it makes me wish this show were being run by the guys who did Zombieland. They really ought to limit the broods per episode.

    March 10, 2013 at 10:22PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Roy Munson This clearly isn't the show for you

      Think there's be a lot of hijinks and laughs when you're burying your friends/relatives and running for your lives every day?

      March 10, 2013 at 10:51PM EST
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      Jeff Breaking Bad and Mad Men both manage to incorporate some level of dark humor and pathos, Thrones does an excellent job as well. Ditto Rome and Deadwood. And the answer to your question is yes, I do believe there would still be humor in a world this grim.

      March 10, 2013 at 11:06PM EST
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      Damara I thought the scene between Hershel and Milton discussing Hershel's stump was hilarious. Earlier in the season, Carol asked Daryl about going off to screw around, and I laughed. There was also a scene of Maggie and Glen in the tower... that made me laugh. The dead prisoner's (his name escapes me at the moment)assumption of Carol being gay based on her haircut... also made me laugh. As did that same guy's joke just previous to him taking a bullet to the brain.

      I think that we must be on opposite sides of this. I feel that the laughs should be limited and very well placed. I feel the brooding makes sense just about anywhere the writers want to toss it in. The reality of TWD is that the show isn't about one person, or one group of people falling on hard times; it's an Apocalypse.

      And, of course Thrones does an excellent job of getting some sarcastic humor in; they have Tyrion (my favorite book/show character pretty much ever). Deadwood had Swearengen... and those loopy c...hics. Breaking Bad has Jessie. I never watched Rome, and I didn't care for Mad Men.

      March 10, 2013 at 11:50PM EST
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      Darkdoug I agree with Damara, though IMO, they could use just a touch more, or at least indications that the characters were not taking themselves or each other so absolutely seriously. The "Lil' Asskicker" nickname for Judith suggests they have those attributes, but we are simply not seeing them. Regarding Rome & Mad Men, they definitely had characters like that. Marc Antony and Roger Sterling were the most prominent, but even the more solemn characters were capable of coming out with a funny line in Rome, that the audience might laugh AT them, or WITH them for saying, but it still broke up the brutality and gore of the show, just as Sterling's occasional snark breaks up the self-absorbed emo qualities of the characters.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:05AM EST
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      Ricardo Totally agree with Damara: humour must be well placed in this kind of series. I loved Hugo in Lost, but it just sounded like "hey, our audience is partially made up of a bunch of nerds, let's create a fun, nerd, star wars fan to please them". I like the humour in TWD the way it is, like Michonne's last week joke ('the mat said welcome')

      March 11, 2013 at 10:25AM EST
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      roy g biv That's the solution, the first zombie show with its own laugh track. GENIUS!!!

      March 11, 2013 at 12:09PM EST
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      ThatMatthew When the actress who plays Maggie was on Talking Dead after the episode, I thought, "What a nice smile. I never see her smile on the show."

      (The same is true for the main actress from Shameless. I didn't think she was that pretty, but then I realized it was because she was constantly frowning.)

      However, during the past few episodes, the ish has really hit the fan, so they are understandably tense. The scene with Hershel and Milton was amusing.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:41PM EST
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      bigwyrm It really depends on your own sense of humor. The line where Rick tells The Governor that he's the town drunk who broke his fence and tore down his wall was hilarious to me, but I haven't even seen anyone else mention it. This episode alone had quite a few moments, mainly between Herschel and Milton, but some of the stuff between Martinez and Daryl was pretty good, too: "I prefer camels," countered with, "Douche bag."

      March 11, 2013 at 5:57PM EST
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      bigwyrm Replace tore down his wall w/ *tore up his yard... Must've had Ronald Regan parodies on the brain, sorry.

      March 11, 2013 at 6:00PM EST
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide Agree with Damara, et. al., and the aforementioned humorous visuals/lines/interactions. And let's not overlook the creepy Governor's attempt at levity: "I don't want the prison. Better to keep my one good eye on you."

      March 11, 2013 at 8:03PM EST
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    lazy iggy

    I totally wanted to see more Herschel and Milton!
    That was such an expected surprise how delightful they were together!
    The rest...just frustrated me.
    Why let Merle close to those weapons?
    Why did Rick think no one would be observing them after the attack?
    What was the point of that sex scene?
    And looking back at Michonne's treatment by the writer's, I wonder whether they had this in mind - restrain themselves from developing her character to create this dilemma? If so, poorly played because this dilemma would have more resonance if they she had talked and endeared herself to the group.
    Really, Andrea....really!
    And I would enjoy a series of webisodes focused on Milton's backstory.

    whew!
    and now - even with all my nitpicks, i am going to watch this episode again.

    March 10, 2013 at 10:23PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Paddy O'Furniture A sex scene with Maggie needs no purpose in the opinion of any red blooded American male.

      Merle has already fought with Rick's group since rejoining, it's not like 'all of a sudden' he is near weapons again. They can't have discussions about every decision they make, many of the online critics already gripe about too much talking and not enough action.

      As for Michonne, the dilemma has more resonance precisely because she has not endeared herself to everyone in the group. If the demand was for anyone else (besides Merle) there would be no discussion but because she has not endeared herself there is the possibility they would consider handing her over.

      Yeah, Andrea sucks.

      More webisodes would be great, but Milton would be a waste of one IMO.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:21AM EST
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      Jim The purpose of the sex scene was to show that the two characters really do love each other and had to have hot makeup sex even at the risk of somebody finding them. Plus they can be warriors again when it comes time to fight the Gov.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:37AM EST
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      Col Bat Guano Someone tell me again why Merle isn't dead.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:42AM EST
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      ThatMatthew @Jim +1. The sex scene was a really big moment in Glen and Maggie's relationship. They are finally working through the trauma they went through.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:45PM EST
    • They let Merle that close to the weapons because Carl wanted a real gorramn challenge for once!

      Seriously though, Im holding out hope that the writer's will have Carl casually headshot Andrea if she tries to rejoin the group.

      March 11, 2013 at 5:42PM EST
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      hunter2012 @Paddy O'Furniture:

      I agree totally about Michonne. If The Governor asked for Daryl's head the audience would hate Rick for just even considering it. The answer would be and unquestioned emphatic NO. But with Michonne yes there is a question especially now that she has opened up a little and bonded some, but even then one has to remember she was the one who told Rick about the capture of Maggie and Glenn and before that rescued Andrea and during the attack by The Governor rescued Hershel. That alone should be enough of a reason to root for Michonne at least a little and to produce a moral dilemma for Rick.

      Oh and if anyone deserves a bunch of webisodes it is "Backpack Guy". He is literally this seasons' version of "Bicycle Girl". As "Bicycle Girl" was to the Pilot, "Backpack Guy" is to the episode "Clear".

      March 12, 2013 at 6:14PM EST
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      hunter2012 Oh I forgot to add:

      I guess I am one of the few if anybody who sympathizes with Andrea. I think I can see things from her POV.

      March 12, 2013 at 6:22PM EST
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      Lil Ass Kicker @ hunter201, who was bicycle girl? I can't picture her from the pilot. Thanks.

      March 13, 2013 at 2:20PM EST
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      Paddy O'Furniture @Hunter2012

      'Backpack Guy' should definitely be the next webisode. Good call.

      March 13, 2013 at 7:00PM EST
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide @LIL ASS KICKER, Bicycle girl was the 1/2-eaten female zombie Rick encountered in the park outside of the hospital. He's the one who had the bicycle, which he used to ride home. Later, after leaving Morgan and Duane, he returned to the park to put "Bicycle Girl" out of her misery. See photos, articles, webisodes linked here: http://www.google.com/search?q=google+pictures+the+bicyble+girl+the+walking+dead&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7AURU_enUS499

      March 14, 2013 at 4:24AM EST
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    NoHoGreg

    Walking Dead was ludicrously dumb tonight. I've enjoyed this season immensely, but I hate when characters act like morons for no reason other than plot concerns. Terrible.

    The idea to meet and negotiate was bad in itself. But for Rick to believe there's a chance that the Governor is sincere about his offer is just the dumbest we have ever seen the character.

    March 10, 2013 at 10:23PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Roy Munson He doesn't believe he's sincere

      March 10, 2013 at 10:50PM EST
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      joel He also hadn't ever met the Governor before. He had good reason to see the man for himself and get a sense of him before making his next move. The setting for the meeting was dumb though. The Governor could have hid an army in that area and they'd never have known going in. I honestly can't believe the Governor would waste a perfectly good opportunity to kill Rick and preemptively strike the prison. They certainly aren't going to out-think each other.

      March 10, 2013 at 11:08PM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r Joel is correct. Both leaders had intention to declare war after the meeting (and acted as such) yet none acted like it. Terrible leaders all around. Perhaps they would have done better to read a book before the apocolypse. I'm sure there are still copies of Sun Tzu around.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:00AM EST
    • Sun Tzu was kind of insane and no real measuring stick for being a good leader. Have you actually read the entirety of Art of War?

      March 11, 2013 at 5:45PM EST
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      Elwyn @Cory: I have. If he was so insane, why is his book still studied to this day?

      March 12, 2013 at 12:29AM EST
    • We study plenty of psycho's works. In fact, it's possible for one person to write something that makes a whole lot of sense and follow it up with pure batshittery. Anyone who has read Sun Tzu knows that... A good general does not make a good leader. If anyone on the show is following his example, it's clearly the governor.

      Also, it's kind of hard to believe you've done more than skimmed it if you don't think the guy was out of it when it came to real world scenarios or normal life. Some of his teachings are just ridiculously outrageous.

      March 12, 2013 at 3:49AM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r Well let's hope that Rick is a better general than he is a leader. I simply suggested Art of War, these dolts both need lessons in warfare and leadership.

      March 12, 2013 at 6:53PM EST
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    srpad

    Curious if we are supposed to read something more in the little nod between Darryl and Merle. The show wouldn't do that to Darryl would it?

    March 10, 2013 at 10:24PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Gary H
      ...you think Darryl and Merle are going to have a romantic connection? Ummm.....no. No I don't think so.

      March 10, 2013 at 10:29PM EST
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      Steven
      SRPAD there is no way that Darryl and Merle are going to have sex or something...there's no way the show would go down that route. You read WAAAAAAY too much into it.

      March 10, 2013 at 10:31PM EST
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      Harry Hedgehog

      Why would Darryl & Merle suddenly fall in love? They are SIBLINGS. No show has ever jumped a shark that big.

      March 10, 2013 at 10:35PM EST
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      srpad What?! No. I thought they may have been trying to imply the brothers were up to something.

      March 10, 2013 at 10:45PM EST
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      notWalt I just don't see anything behind the nod.

      March 10, 2013 at 10:47PM EST
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      Damara I thought maybe the nod was Merle's way of saying, "Glad you're back, alive." And Daryl's way of saying, "Glad you were a team player, followed directions, and stayed put without killing anyone."

      March 10, 2013 at 11:55PM EST
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide It's a brotherly greeting, acknowledging each is glad to see the other, and they've got each other's back. Rick and Daryl nodded at each other that way after Daryl returned to the prison and saved Rick's life (immediately before Rick looked at Merle with profound distaste).

      March 11, 2013 at 12:37AM EST
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      LauraK I knew you meant up to something. Not sex. Geez ppl, get your heads out of the toilet. lol

      March 11, 2013 at 1:54AM EST
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide Daryl and Martinez shared mini-nods after bonding over their pissing - er, zombie-vanquishing contest, and just before sharing a cigarette.

      March 11, 2013 at 3:54AM EST
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      ken sly I totally see the nod as being an indicator that there will be some future relations b/t the brothers. At this point they have no one to really turn to and they will no doubt find that in the arm's of the other. It will interesting to see this unfold.

      March 11, 2013 at 10:30AM EST
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      ThatMatthew Wow, I thought the first three replies were jokes at first. What are you people thinking? Srpad was just asking if they were plotting something.

      Which they are not. It was just how they show affection to each other (being "manly" men who wouldn't hug).

      March 11, 2013 at 12:49PM EST
  • 003_talkback_profile

    Elevation

    God this episode was boring. At this point I'm vehemently rooting for mutual assured destruction.

    March 10, 2013 at 10:46PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Paddy O'Furniture I'll never understand why online critics keep watching shows when all they do is whine about them. Then take the time to go to reviews and post pointless comments.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:27AM EST
    • 003_talkback_profile

      Elevation I'm sorry for expressing my views about a television show on a television critics' website.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:29AM EST
    • Paddy, what is the point of being a critic if you arent going to critique? Stop reading a critic's review if what they have to say bothers you

      March 11, 2013 at 5:48PM EST
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      Trapper My feeling exactly, Elevation. That's why I stopped watching the show last season, and I'm not sure why I went back to it. It's often just a slog for me, although I understand that an awful lot of people love it.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:05AM EST
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      JD So you are rooting for them to not fight? MAD is the idea that neither side has incentive to attack, and thus wont.

      March 12, 2013 at 2:45PM EST
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      Paddy O'Furniture Elevation, it's not the review that is annoying. It's your comment. You are not a critic. Just some guy with internet access who for no good reason not only watches a show they can't stand but then goes to a critics review and comments about how much they dislike the show. Just tune out dude.

      March 13, 2013 at 7:05PM EST
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    Ellen M.

    After the last episode, I was expecting something with more action than this. It wasn't that I didn't like this episode but "Clear" was such a strong, focussed episode with only a few characters, that this one seemed almost the opposite. It felt like it jumped around a lot in order to visit all the characters we didn't see last week. I agree that the Governor has been harder to define than he should be. He really doesn't have any redeeming characteristics. Even his charm is so manipulative that it would be very hard to trust this guy no matter who he's talking to. (Even Milton seemed to have an issue with him in this episode.)

    All of Rick's group want him dead. For me, it's just a question about who will eventually takes him out. I would prefer his executioners to be Maggie, Michone, or Andrea. But I will be very pleased when he finally gets what he deserves no matter who does it.

    What I liked best in this episode was watching Hershel and Milton together. They play similar roles as advisors in their respective groups but are completely different types of people. Hershel is a very experienced, soulful man who has lived a full life and Milton is none of that. But he did show more humanity with Hershel than we've seen before- even though he nerded-out and wanted to see his sawed-off leg.

    It will be interesting to see what Andrea and Milton do when they all go to war. They both seem to see clearly now that the Governor is the real bad guy here.

    March 10, 2013 at 10:46PM EST Reply to Comment
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide Glad to see Hershel, like Rick, knows the fine art of "less is more". The Governor sexually menaced Maggie, but didn't rape her, but Hershel wisely let Andrea assume the Governor had gone there (without actually lying). Good way to shatter Andrea's rose-colored glasses.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:42AM EST
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      SlackerInc Good point, Froide. I thought the same, that he artfully answered the question in the best possible way.

      March 11, 2013 at 10:05AM EST
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      Tom O Andrea's rose colored glasses were so shattered... that she went right back to Woodbury with "Phillip."
      Yeah, right.

      March 11, 2013 at 5:28PM EST
    • To a father, what the Governor did was pretty much the same as attempted rape.

      March 11, 2013 at 5:49PM EST
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide @Tom O - But Andrea's not Maggie's father, and Hershel purposefully influenced Andrea's interpretation of what happened.

      And I thought it was pretty clear: Andrea returned to Woodbury because:
      ...She thought not doing so might cause the Governor to take out Rick's group on the spot (though I think that would be the wrong reading, as the Governor's more concerned about torturing Michonne than with bedding or owning Andrea's loyalty), and
      ...Silly wabbit had another plan.

      March 11, 2013 at 8:09PM EST
  • 003_talkback_profile

    Elevation

    I predict Milton eventually kills The Governor.

    March 10, 2013 at 10:47PM EST Reply to Comment
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      SlackerInc It was cool how he started to get a little less loyal looking when he realised the Gov's plan to double cross the prison gang. I guess he must not have known about what they did to the National Guard. I could dig having Milton as a defector; I could get behind the same with Martinez too if they hadn't unfortunately already established him as irredeemable with the National Guard ambush.

      March 11, 2013 at 10:08AM EST
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      crossover cris On the bright side, if Milton does kill the Governor he can then call his sister the lawyer in Chicago to get him off!

      March 11, 2013 at 12:12PM EST
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      Dezbot LOL, Cris! I would also like Milton to join Our Gang, not just because he would be a good addition to the group, but because I love Dallas Roberts. Damn, I miss "Rubicon"!

      March 11, 2013 at 1:04PM EST
    • As long as Carl casually pops one in Andrea's dome, im ok with that.

      March 11, 2013 at 5:50PM EST
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    Roy Munson

    I TOTALLY thought there was going to be an attack when G + M were banging

    March 10, 2013 at 10:48PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Jordan Same here. Glad they reconciled even though I thought some shit was gonna go down.

      March 10, 2013 at 11:02PM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r Yea that scene went about 1 minute too long and served no real point. They could have accomplished Glenn/Maggie reconciliation without an ackward sex scene that went on too long and indicated something else was going on (Merle escaping, zombie attack, Woodbury assassin, spy, etc.). Another example of poor writing.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:04AM EST
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide Me, four. Some other thoughts about that...

      Symbolic ARROW on Rick and the Governor’s parley room doorpost means a treaty’s being discussed; symbolic NECKTIE on Maggie and Glenn’s sentry doorpost means hanky panky’s underway. While Rick and the Governor were negotiating, Glenn and Maggie were…um…liaising (when not inside the prison holding back Merle).

      Fine pair of guards Glenn and Maggie are, f’ing around while on sentry duty. I’m glad they reconciled, but maybe the associated distraction’s not so healthy for the group.

      Hope Glenn kept a condom in his back pocket. One baby’s a big enough burden.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:49AM EST
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      Col Bat Guano The dereliction of duty by Glen and Maggie is pretty stunning given the Governor's attack earlier.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:47AM EST
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      Ferris15 I thought that when Rick and the crew came back from the meeting, glen and maggie would still be fooling around and no one wold be there to open the gates. Leaving them in the field with zombies.

      March 11, 2013 at 8:14AM EST
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      Dezbot I thought a random zombie would reach under the door that they didn't shut all the way.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:06PM EST
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      Roy Munson BBQ_ Haxor -- That scene didn't "indicate" anything was going to happen

      2 characters had make-up sex.

      Just because what you THOUGHT would happen DIDN'T happen, doesn't mean it's an example of "poor writing"

      March 11, 2013 at 4:25PM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r No the fact that it went on too long is an example of poor writing. It let our minds wander thinking about 'why are we still on this' and completely missed the point of their "make-up sex."

      March 12, 2013 at 6:55PM EST
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      Roy Munson How did it go on too long?

      It was a couple minutes. If that's too long, I feel sorry for your partner.

      If they immediately cut away to something as soon as they started, people would be comlaining about that on this message board

      March 12, 2013 at 7:37PM EST
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      deadwalking @BBQ: you can't be serious calling a sex scene that goes on a minute longer than you would like bad writing. I thought that was great writing, made us think something bad would happen, but it didn't. Then we said, great, that was just make up sex. I like when things happen on a show sometimes with no consequences.

      March 13, 2013 at 11:44PM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r A TV show has limited minutes, it must be able to convey things without wasting time. Having scenes that are irrelevant is wasteful and is thus poor writing.

      It served no purpose and, if their purpose WAS about make-up sex it failed because many people were thinking "gee, why are we still here, is something going to happen."

      Poor writing.

      March 14, 2013 at 12:36AM EST
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      Roy Munson And I completely disagree that the scene was irrelevent. Two of the main characters appeared to be headed towards a break-up and that brief - yes, I said brief - scene showed the audience they still love each other and are sticking together.

      I'm beginning to think you just don't like sex

      Is this Rick Santorum?

      March 14, 2013 at 12:56AM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r The scene wasn't irrelevant, the fact that it went on too long was. It's not good writing to waste time with something that is unnecessary, especially when you only have 40 minutes. It completely took away from the "reconciliation" by going on too long and allowing many of its audience to lose focus of the significance.

      I do not dislike sex, I just dislike poor writing and wasting time.

      March 14, 2013 at 1:20AM EST
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide I don't think the scene was too lengthy and never wondered during it, "Why are we still on this?"

      Rather, I thought that scene effectively ratcheted up a sense of dread (as a horror show should), while conveying all that other posters and I already stated above.

      Additionally, the scene effectively set up the audience to expect a future payoff: a greater sense of loss should something bad happen to Glenn or Maggie (or because of their distraction), and served as an ominous reminder of:
      ... Glenn's freezing outside the bar in "Nebraska" because he was distracted by Maggie's saying she loved him, and
      ...Glenn's earlier statement to a disapproving Dale: he and Maggie could die any day, so why restrain themselves from enjoying each other? Tick...tock...

      March 14, 2013 at 4:42AM EST
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      GodDamnZombies Was it bad writing though? I'd guess nearly every person watching was thinking that with no-one on guard the zombies would attack. And we waited for something to happen with baited breath.
      So it seems to me the writers got the exact reaction they probably wanted - an audience on the edge of their seat..

      March 15, 2013 at 8:08PM EST
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    Johns

    I knew that after last week's masterpiece, there would be no way the writers could follow up and that they would return us to this convoluted soap opera, especially when they showed the preview for this episode, showing the governor again, which made me a little sick, because I knew where we were going back to. This episode was a clusterf**k in every way - why would the governor not just set up Rick and ambush him during their meeting, either killing him outright or keeping him hostage as a bargaining chip? Why the whole nonsense angle about asking Rick to deliver Michonne, if he could've just killed Rick there on the spot, and then mobilize all of his troops and surprise the prison, slaughtering everyone, plus Michonee? And why not vice versa? Rick could've ambushed the Governor and Martinez, effectively ending their problem; why relent if they have shown no hesitation to use violence when needed? Why the restraint now? This is just devolving into a stupid, boring, circular, uninspired cat and mouse game, which is unnecessary, unrealistic and worthy only for cartoons, where the villian gets defeated time and time again, but promises to return with a new scheme. I guess its an apt analogy, as the Governor is totally a cartoonish character at this point, all he needs is his a mustache to twirl. Yes, I know this show is about the ratings, which is why, as Alan correctly pointed out, episodes like the pilot and last week's iteration will sadly be the exception and not the norm. But if that remains the case, this show will never reach dramatic greatness.

    March 10, 2013 at 10:53PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Paddy O'Furniture This is what drives me crazy about people posting their amateur critiques online: the false assurance that your opinion of what makes the most sense and should happen is the only logical direction for the show and anything else is 'poor writing.' Based on the preview for next weeks episode and what we have seen transpire thus far, it is safe to assume the Governor has some painful revenge in mind for Michonne for killing his walker-daughter. He wants he alive. The best way to assure this of happening is if she is handed over to him and that gives him the double bonus of being able to then attack what he thinks will be an unsuspecting group. Best of both worlds, Michonne to torture and no more Rick Group. Taking out Rick and attacking the prison doesn't guarantee him Michonne, which is what he really wants. Also, it puts more of his people in danger.

      I'm not saying this show is perfectly written, but to only take your opinion into account and not be capable of considering why another approach may not be more plausible or even logical is ridiculous.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:38AM EST
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      Jake Post a comment...

      March 11, 2013 at 2:38AM EST
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      Pineapple @ Johns. Also, they aren't watching the show with us. Rick and the governor don't know what the other has out there. The governor could have a whole army outside and maybe Rick brought more back up then what the wood berry crew saw. They just don't know and to go off and foolishly just shoot the other would be a huge risk. That's how people die, the governor already said he didn't want anymore of his people to die. Plus, it wasn't in the script. That's what the writers chose. I'd very much like to see you and the rest of the community turn out something better.

      March 11, 2013 at 2:45AM EST
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      JT Paddy: Why should it matter whether someone's opinion of a TV show is self-assured or not? Sheesh.

      March 11, 2013 at 9:23PM EST
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    Chase

    Y'know, if you guys hate the show so much, you could always not watch it. Or try your luck at writing a television show yourself. If either side massacred the other, there wouldn't be much room for anything in the last three episodes, would there? The writers still have to sustain the story.

    March 10, 2013 at 11:04PM EST Reply to Comment
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      joel I think people are unhappy with how they're sustaining it. We're not new to TV here, Chase. We all "get" it, we just wanted something better than this.

      March 10, 2013 at 11:10PM EST
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      Thomas I'm sorry you're irked, fanboy.

      March 10, 2013 at 11:13PM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r Maybe they should just write a good story that is coherent and entertaining?

      March 10, 2013 at 11:56PM EST
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      Paddy O'Furniture I'm with you Chase. This show is by no means perfect or some masterpiece but these online critics who bash the show every week based on their opinions of what should be happening are SO ANNOYING

      March 11, 2013 at 12:42AM EST
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      Col Bat Guano It's really a shame people are forced to read the review and the comments.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:50AM EST
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      Rob Not sure why it bothers people so much when people criticize the show or why it's necessary to impugn their motives. It doesn't bother me when people who know nothing about writing, story or pacing defend it.

      I thought this has been the best season so far, and this is the first episode (this year) that I didn't like.

      March 11, 2013 at 8:39AM EST
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      SlackerInc I guess I am the anti-Rob, or close to it. I have fairly strongly disliked this season, except for the past two episodes ("Clear" and this week's). But I can see I'm in a distinct minority, so I have to wonder if this is why Mazzara got canned, because he was going in this direction which only appeals to a select few like myself?

      March 11, 2013 at 10:11AM EST
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    Martin

    "...offering very different kinds of stories set in the same universe — one where, for a week, someone like Milton can be the most important character, rather than an accent to the Rick/Governor showdown that's supposed to be the most compelling part of the season."

    It sounds like you'd want what "World War Z" should have been before they (seem to have) made it into a "hero saves the world from sprinting zombies" movie.

    March 10, 2013 at 11:07PM EST Reply to Comment
    • Flat_eric_talkback_profile

      HISLOCAL If the show did an episode like 10 episodes into the season where a Milton-type character suddenly gets a feature, a backstory, and discovers something really important that affects the way the season ends, that would be awesome.

      But, it isn't "badass" so this show will never do it.

      March 11, 2013 at 9:04AM EST
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    Minmin

    No, this wasn't as good an episode as "Clear.". That was clear, but this episode did see people reaching out to each other at the barricades, so to speak. This episode humanized Martinez and Milton, and of course allowed them to see what both groups shared.

    I was very afraid for Glen and Maggie and as a result couldn't watch what was a very hot sex scene. I was just too afraid there would be zombie action.

    And while I know that people in the blogosphere don't really care for Michonne, she has made herself useful, and now she's starting to talk. I think tut Rick is entertaining the possibility of giving her up only because this allows him the delusion to imagine that war can be avoided.

    March 10, 2013 at 11:13PM EST Reply to Comment
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    Fuzzy Dunlop

    Clearly Rick and the Prisoners never hung out with Chris and Snoop. "Get There Early," words to live by. None of that "tape a gun to the table" shit would fly with Chris Partlow.

    March 10, 2013 at 11:26PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Paddy O'Furniture They must not have watched The Godfather before the zombie outbreak either. I think the show did indicate that they got there early though, the Gov just got there even earlier

      March 11, 2013 at 12:45AM EST
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide Yeah, I thought about "The Godfather", too. And did Rick not watch "Inglorious Basterds"?

      March 11, 2013 at 12:54AM EST
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    Jordan

    I had little problems with the episode, just very upset how unbearable Andrea has become. The writers really screwed this character over.

    March 10, 2013 at 11:28PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Paddy O'Furniture Yeah, I just really don't like her at all. Maybe she can redeem herself during the war by killing or being instrumental in helping defeat the Gov though

      March 11, 2013 at 12:47AM EST
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide Does Andrea feel, "I can' go back there," more because of what The Governor did to Maggie, or because The Governor humiliated her during the palaver and, to make matters worse, he saw Rick dismiss her, too? Just sayin'.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:58AM EST
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      Jim Yeah but she looked awesome in a tight red dress Friday night on Craig Ferguson's show. yowza!

      March 11, 2013 at 1:47AM EST
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    Darkdoug

    I just skimmed the other replies, but in answer to Alan's question, it looked like Herschel's prosthetic included a revolver strapped alongside the knee where no one would thing to look for a gun. That was why he refused to show Milton his stump.

    March 10, 2013 at 11:34PM EST Reply to Comment
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      Bryan L Yes, that's correct. I believe there were two guns, one on each side of his stump. There wasn't a prosthetic that I could see, which means he had to be using his other foot for the gas/brake. He also used his crutches for the rest of the episode, so I don't think he had a peg-leg or anything. As long as the car's not a stickshift, he could use his other foot. It would be awkward, but not impossible, particularly with some practice and no other cars on the road.

      March 11, 2013 at 10:21AM EST
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      Dsl Oh, now that's pretty clever. We couldn't tell what it was that they were trying to show us. I just figured it was a prosthetic and then assumed the writers forgot about it later on, when he was clearly not wearing a prosthetic.

      Unfortunately, I don't really give the writers and crew the benefit of the doubt on this show. Maybe I should? If it were The Wire, I would have assumed something was up and rewound to see what they were showing. With TWD, I just assume they messed up or missed a detail. They normally overdo the handholding in their recaps, so I expect that kind of subtlety during the show.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:42PM EST
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      Dsl DON'T was missing above, as in: I don't expect that kind of subtlety in the show

      March 11, 2013 at 12:44PM EST
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      Bryan L Just to clarify, others have posted that it was a gun and a spare clip of ammo, not two guns, which makes sense.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:10PM EST
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      hunter2012 @DSL:

      Not rewinding and rewatching a scene because you assume the the writers messed something or forgot something is counter productive. Maybe the things you assumed they messed up before could've been explained by simply rewatching the scene. It is a great mistake that both amateur and professional reviewers make surprisingly often: They don't rewatch a scene they have problems with and assume it is a writing or continuity mistake. I always rewatch a scene if I see something strange or inconsistent. Eighty-90% of the time that clear things up showing that it was done right. Sort of like if a machine doesn't work check that you plugged it in or put batteries in before you say its broken LOL!

      March 12, 2013 at 11:46PM EST
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      Darkdoug Bryan L, why would he have a spare magazine when the gun on the right side of his thigh was a revolver? My sister initially thought it was a spare mag, but when I pointed out the revolver, she went back and claimed it looked like a knife in hindsight.

      March 13, 2013 at 4:54AM EST
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      Bryan L I didn't rewatch it, DarkDoug, so I'm sure your sister is right. Other people posted about the "clip." All I noticed when I watched it was that there was a gun and something else on the other side of his stump, and it was important only to the later point of Herschel not showing his stump to Milton.

      March 13, 2013 at 10:11AM EST
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    John

    I always thought this show would have been better if it was always about Rick trying to be reunited with his family. The show would have had a better goal and we would have been able to see lots of different characters and stories with Rick on his travels. Sometimes this show just drags and like you said, the last episode was one of the best and it had nothing to do with this overall arc.

    March 10, 2013 at 11:40PM EST Reply to Comment
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r Agreed, fewer characters, some far-off goal, and the detours/adventures of those characters surviving/exploring the real star of this show, the post-apoc world.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:05AM EST
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      Elwyn Meh. You can keep your version of The Littlelest Hobo/Lassie in zombie apocalypse idea.

      March 12, 2013 at 1:10AM EST
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      John @Elwyn, yeah I guess roaming the country, fighting zombies, meeting interesting new characters wouldn't be as exciting as sitting around on a farm for a whole season =)

      March 12, 2013 at 1:25AM EST
  • Machoman_talkback_profile

    bbq_hax0r

    "They have to be scared so they can accept this." -- Said every abusive dictator in the history of mankind as he lies to and scares his subjects so he can manipulate them to his wishes. God I hate Rick. He's a terrible leader.

    This episode was atrocious. I hate how poor the writing is and how the writers force feed us symbolism, ideas, and push the story forward. It's a bad show. Winter can't get here soon enough.

    It took them 37 minutes to finally get at what the Governor wanted, what the hell! Ugh.

    And lastly,groups with such small numbers of people, not competing directly for resources, war is a crazy idea. If the Governor is hell bent on war, then Rick's group should simply leave (as Herschel suggested). It's that simple. There is no other logical choice. Go back to Rick's hometown or some other town and make that your stronghold, abandon the prison, it's not worth a war with high casualty rates when there are other logical options. In pre-history, hunters and gatherers seldom fought over resources unless it was absolutely necessary for their survival, any choice that doesn't end with Rick's group leaving proves Rick is unfit for leadership, crazy, and idiotic.

    March 10, 2013 at 11:51PM EST Reply to Comment
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      dtom I'm with you on this in that I can't find a good reason for the group to stick around. The Governor has already demonstrated that the prison is not as capable of sustaining a seige as it would appear. He would certainly have prepared for a sneak attack on Woodbury, which means that he can afford to eventually starve Rick's group into meeting his demands. Moving on seems to be the only real option on the table for Rick's group.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:34AM EST
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      Darkdoug Where are they supposed to go? Where can they be assured of getting food? How can they feed themselves in Rick's home town? Hunter-gatherers could not fight because they really had nothing much to fight over. Fighting comes with more advanced cultures, because that is the price civilization demands. Hunter-gatherer lifestyles are far from the idyll of the Noble Savage that ignorant theorists pulled out of their asses. The majority of their children don't see their third birthday. The life expectancy is well under 40. Don't go citing the practices of hunter-gatherers as some sort of admirable standard.

      You can't have a decent standard of living that elevates you above an animal unless you have a basis for civilization, and that almost always requires settlement. They can't keep scavenging for food, and at some point the group is going to age beyond their ability to keep running and scavenging and fighting. Rick, Herschell, Merle, Carol and possibly Daryl are all well past 30. By the time the baby hits puberty, some if not all of the elder group are going to be hard pressed to keep up the pace and the fighting. They need a place they can settle in safety that can also provide renewable food. Herschel pointed out the agricultural possibilities of the outer yard in the season premier. They will NEED to start farming at some point, because even if they keep finding untouched pre-zombie food, it's not going to stay edible forever.

      So, yeah. They can turn tail and run and maybe never, ever, ever find anything that good again, or they can fight for the sure thing. Remember, at the beginning of the season, they were at the point where some of them would have been okay with eating cat food. Plainly the pickings are not nearly as good as you seem to be imagining.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:38AM EST
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide I'd like to see the group move back to Rick's hometown, perhaps to the sheriff's station.

      They can grow crops there, but the short-term answer to food is to eat kudzu: it's EVERYWHERE in Georgia, it's edible, and - correct me if I'm wrong - the vines might be dried and used as bamboo-like sticks to form weapons, punji sticks, and a staked perimeter like Morgan's.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:07AM EST
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide One more point, Wikipedia says kudzu's a good source of honey, methane, and biofuel.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:09AM EST
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      Col Bat Guano The problem is that they haven't shown why the prison is worth fighting over as opposed to going to Rick's hometown. Initially, they had the double fenceline, but since the attack they seemed fairly hemmed in without any ability to support themselves. Any building could be secured with enough effort.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:58AM EST
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      SlackerInc I disagree with you about the episode, which I really liked (only a titch less than "Clear" and both were better than any since "Nebraska"). But you are right that the best plan is to hit the road as Carol and Herschel suggested.

      BTW, my father was an anthropologist (Ph.D. from Stanford), and the story on hunting/gathering tribes was not so clear-cut. Some groups were peaceful, some engaged in mostly ritual warfare with few deaths or serious injuries, and some engaged in generations-long feuds with lots of killing.

      March 11, 2013 at 10:18AM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r Doug, I cited them as an example of a small hunting/gathering group, which in case you hadn't noticed... is exactly what Rick's group is. They don't have any farms to sustain themselves, they hunt and gather supplies. Which, they likely could do in MANY places (like Herschel's farm? -- I'm sure there are few farms in the rural south). I didn't say it was ideal, it is the reality they are faced with. Staying at the prison and facing enormous casualty rates is asinine. Especially since the prison is not nearly as safe as they believe.

      Any choice that results in actually going to war with such few numbers for such few resources is ludicrous and a poor decision. Rick and them most certainly will go to war (this is a show and unfortunately have been leading us there for 10 episodes now), but that does not make it the intelligent/rational choice at all. Rick is a terrible leader.

      March 11, 2013 at 11:53AM EST
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      Dave I @BBQ_HAXOR, two things:

      First, the viability of farms or just going somewhere else: As we saw with Herschel's farm, places out in the open are a bit exposed. Could they build better defenses? Sure. Could they do something similar to Morgan's setup? Well, yes. However, at this point they would have to find some spot, build it up, secure it, and hope the Gov. does not find them and take them all out. I think the prison is as good a place for a last stand as any, and probably more secure than you would think IF they are not caught unaware. Plus, if they go somewhere else and have to try and clear out zombies/walkers, a/o established groups they may lose people to zombies a/o come across somebody as bad as the Gov. without the benefit of a place to prepare & defend.

      I think conflicts and the state of civilization are different than traditional/historic hunter/gatherer groups. First, Rick is their leader, and the people in general are coming from a more offense-driven state of mind. They have not grown up in a world where they had to run away. Second, they are being forced to leave the safest place they have ever found, likely as safe as any other options, and go some place trying to care for and defend Rick's newborn baby as well as the other kids, or go to war to defend it. At worst, it could be a choice between a slow death out in the wilderness or take a chance and maybe have a fast death fighting the Gov. and his men.

      That said, I am not saying you do not have a few points. Why Rick is still their acting leader/self-declared dictator despite hallucinating his dead friends & family, pretty much losing it after Lori died, and some other unpopular decisions is kind of beyond me. He is obviously not mentally sound enough to be the unquestioned leader. Still, he has acted (and been accepted) as their leader, he kept them alive this long, saved the lives of many if not all of them on numerous occasions, seems relatively charismatic and is as good a leader/decision-maker as anybody in the group, and nobody else (except kinda/sorta Glenn) is stepping up to take his place. This seems like something he would do; fight to protect what they've got in the face of not very many other good options. Plus, at some point they are going to have to settle down and defend themselves. It happened with compounds in the past being surrounded by FBI agents, plus Rick has two days to plan booby traps or whatnot and the group may feel going back out into the wild is a death wish at this point. They are fighters with very little hope of finding another situation like this, so their options are not all that great.

      -Cheers

      March 11, 2013 at 12:22PM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r Some solid points Dave. For better or worse Rick has been accepted their leader, and I agree, it is within his character to go to war.

      I still think it is the wrong choice by a wide a mile. The Governor has many notable advantages over Rick which warrant that Rick be prudent and adopt a strict strategy. His numbers are far far fewer, less expendable (in that I wouldn't put it past the Gov. to sacrifice his troops - a la the North in the Civil War), not as well equipped (while still decent), and likely may have to endure a siege, in a castle that isn't exactly secure.

      While a prison is likely one of the most secure places you would come across (assuming it's not ravaged like this one), you have to ask is it worth it when you could likely find places (possibly a factory?) which could made nearly as secure AND away from the Governor. I find it highly unlikely the Governor will chase them all throughout the State, or that his people would allow that (who think Rick threatens their safety after the assault on Woodbury -- a lot harder to sell that if his people simply move hours away).

      I'm with Herschel, the prison is not worth it, gtfo. Granted this is a TV show and heroes will goto war and win with minor casualties and all will be right and logical/well-thought out decisions will be left moot.

      March 12, 2013 at 7:08PM EST
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    nsp

    > days gone bye

    Intentional typo/reference?

    March 10, 2013 at 11:53PM EST Reply to Comment
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide It's no typo. That's the pilot episode's exact title.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:03AM EST
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    Dave I

    Thus far, I think my biggest problem with The Walking Dead seems to be a lack of foresight. They seem to not know what to do with main characters and maybe even the world at large. They seem to acknowledge that they have in some ways screwed up (partial list) Andrea, The Governor, Carol, T-Dawg(sp?), Shane, etc. Even Rick is uneven. Some of those characters are minor (like Carol). However, Andrea feels like she should be important. Mostly I just find her annoying. Sorry, but it's true. Without being a comic spoiler, keeping it vague I found the character in the comics very likeable and natural. Here, she seemed grating and interjected herself as some optimistically speaking would-be leader type that had to be reminded, no, she was just the girl who slept with the Gov. and who used to be a part of Rick's group. They WANT her to be important and likeable, however they never really planned things to make her that way. But she can kill zombies with pen knives like Rambo, so I guess that makes up for it.

    Same with The Gov., albeit in different ways. While I enjoy that they did a better job in the TV show of showing perhaps why he ends up being the villain he is (sad story about his wife dying, obviously loved his daughter, and a bit of arrogance with how he saw his boss). That was welcome. However, he is irregular. Sometimes, he has some depth and reason for his actions. Other times, he is just a mustache-twirling villain telling Rick these details just to make Rick hopefully let his guard down.

    I also have a problem with Rick. He is too anti-hero. He is the protagonist by default, or because that's who they point the camera at. I find him somehow less in the TV show than the comic; less heroic, less humane, less a guy forced into being the leader and working to save everybody. I see what they WANT Rick to be, however they do not make the right decisions in how they write the character. Ditto for Michonne; last week was the first time we saw something worth fighting for in the character. One thing the comic did was make her essential, as well as give her a personality and not just a scowl & a katana.

    Those gripes aside, I found the conversation between Rick and The Gov. pretty compelling. They also did a nice job of humanizing Martinez (and The Gov.'s group in general), Merle, and just the players in this post-zombie-apocalyptic setting as humans just doing what they had to do to survive. I just want them to write the characters more consistent with how they seem to want us to view them. There are actually a lot of things that I like about the show. However, there are also ongoing problems with the writing and how they present the characters. It seems partly an issue of clarity, and comparing last week's somewhat Morgan-centric episode to most of the series, it is an issue of character development. This week's episode seemed pretty strong with some great acting. I just hope they can tighten things up at some point.

    -Cheers

    March 11, 2013 at 12:18AM EST Reply to Comment
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    Matt R

    Alan,

    Streaming screener??

    And yes, I'm with you on the whole sex scene. I was positive someone was about to get got.

    March 11, 2013 at 12:31AM EST Reply to Comment
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      Bryan L Me, too. I was waiting for one of their heads to explode like Axel's did. And when they moved inside, I kept waiting to see zombie hands reach under the door.

      March 11, 2013 at 10:24AM EST
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    deadwalking

    This was a great episode. The only reason not to like it would be to continue with the incessant whining about the writing of the show. Filled with tension. Two "generals" sizing each other up. If you can't figure out why Rick didn't just kill the governor, then keep thinking. It might come to you. I am a tough critic, and this show is pretty damn good. No, it's not Breaking Bad. But NOTHING is. It's still up there with the next tier of shows on TV. In short, in my opinion, if you didn't like this episode, stop watching. It's not for you.

    March 11, 2013 at 12:47AM EST Reply to Comment
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      SlackerInc I really liked this episode, and the last one. I agree that it was very tense, having the "generals" size each other up. Also agree that nothing is on BB's level.

      But it sounds like you consider this show to be good in general, throughout its run; and that I disagree with. I would say the number of episodes as good as this one can be counted on one hand; and at least half of the episodes they have aired to date were groan-inducingly bad.

      March 11, 2013 at 10:22AM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r I'm sorry I don't need to be forcefed that Milton and Herschel are alike. Or that Martinez and Daryl are alike. Or that Andrea is alone. Or that these two "generals" are unfit for leadership, irrational, and dumb. The writing quality on the show is poor, sorry, it just is. They can achieve some high levels (like Clear), but they seldom fall flat on their face and end up being unable to write any coherence into their story. It's almost as if they have ADD and just write a story for one specific episode at a time rather than actually thinking about the journey.

      March 11, 2013 at 12:01PM EST
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      Dave I @BBQ_HAX0R, I felt it was less that Milton & Herschel or Martinez & Daryl were "alike," much less that it was force-fed to us. It just showed they were all human and could relate. O.k., Martinez & Daryl were too quick to find common ground and all. Still, I thought that actually worked to show commonality in a pretty believable fashion; they are probably from the same region and have lost a lot to the zombies/walkers and, similar to soldiers fighting for different leaders but from otherwise similar cultural settings, are only adversaries due to circumstance not due to some irreconcilable differences.

      For the sake of argument, there are plenty of real-life examples of leaders much less suited to leadership that still have the following of their people. Not that I am defending Rick or The Gov. wholesale; they have written both of them doing some pretty challenging things to accept (for us AND their followers). And yes, last week's episode seemed stronger. However, this episode seemed pretty good to me, Rick and Gov. are in my opinion better characters/leaders than you seem to find (which only matters in that they do not bother me as much), and the meeting between them was a nice change in that it had these two leaders feeling each other out and neither truly trusting the other.

      And Andrea . . . Sorry, it pains me to say this but I cannot stand Andrea. I love her in the comic, however she just grates on me in the show. It is both the writing and how the actor plays her which might be from the actor or from the direction she is given. She is just an unlikeable character.

      -Cheers

      March 11, 2013 at 1:34PM EST
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      LA @deadwalking I thought this episode was good, too. I thought letting the audience know about the gun under the table was a smart move because it created tension. We knew something that Rick didn't know. Maybe it was naive on my part, but I could imagine a plot twist in which Rick was shot and wounded by the governor, and who shot and wounded the governor in turn, sending the situation spiraling into chaos. It didn't happen, but it could have, and that created tension, at least within me. It was a very talky episode, much like a typical episode of last season, with a crucial difference: instead of talking soapily about their relationships (with the exception of Maggie and Glen), they are talking about survival. And this is interesting to me. How do two groups who hate each other come to terms in a zombie-infested world? Is it even possible? And how honest is a leader obligated to be to his people? Both the governor and Rick lied, both believing it was for the greater good. Were they right?

      And I agree about the "incessant whining about the writing of the show." It's like listening to an album and saying ad nauseam "They shouldn't have used guitar here, the solo should have been shorter, the vocals are mixed too low, why is the drummer using his toms, the bass player has a terrible tone" etc. Criticism isn't about ceaselessly pointing out only what doesn't work (or rather, what doesn't work for you), but about what works and doesn't work. Yes, Andrea is annoying. I'm not sure I need to read it for the 1000001th time.

      March 12, 2013 at 10:10AM EST
    • Machoman_talkback_profile

      bbq_hax0r @Dave; The meeting bothered me, but then again I'm driven mad by the whole Rick/Governor feud. I find myself trying to root for Rick, but it just seems for every 1 admirable thing he does, he makes two wrongs.

      The three things which upset me about this episode were:

      1) The fact it took 37 minutes for any actual negotiation to take place.

      2) Being force-fed the connections, or at least having it seem that way, I wish the connections developed organically and weren't so predictable.

      3) The Governor's gun taped to the table. Chekhov's gun my friend.

      Just out of curiosity which leaders can you think of worse than Rick/Governor that still maintain the support of their people without some outside force. I'm sure modern military is full of examples of platoon leaders being awful, but then a platoon can't exactly kill their officers without ramification. But I can't think off the top of my mind any prominent examples.

      Cheers for another good response, I'm starting to like you! Haha.

      March 12, 2013 at 7:19PM EST
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    David

    I was curious where the writer came up with the title for this episode. A little Googling turned up this verse from the Bob Dylan song "Blind Willie McTell": "Seen the arrow on the doorpost
    Sayin' this land is condemned
    All the way from New Orlean
    To Jerusalem
    I travelled through East Texas
    Where many martyrs fell
    And I know no one can sing the blues like Blind Willie McTell."
    I'm curious what the significance of the line is, and why it was applied to this episode. Thoughts?

    March 11, 2013 at 1:03AM EST Reply to Comment
    • Default-avatar

      Ed David,

      I just posted this a new topic, but I'll repost it here in case you can't find it:

      -------------------

      I may have deciphered the title of this episode, "Arrow on the Doorpost".

      Long ago, before the American west settled, tribes of Native Americans would feud over land, specifically land which a water source.

      One tribe would declare war on another, and it was a custom that the male members of each tribe would shoot an arrow or throw a tomahawk/hatchet against a vertical beam of wood, be it a tree, horse covering, or door to a home.

      If the arrow or hatchet stuck in the wood, then it was considered a sign that the tribe would be successful in their undertaking; if the arrow or hatchet were deflected off (or stuck then fell off), then it was a sign that their war would end terribly (either in loss of land or life, I can't remember), inducing the tribe to attempt to settle their differences diplomatically.

      It was only after the war was over could the Native American remove the arrow or hatchet, and if he was killed in the battle, then the tree, or horse covering, or home, must be destroyed.

      My recollection may be a little off, but I hope this helps!

      - Ed

      March 11, 2013 at 4:05AM EST
  • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

    Froide

    I often forget to compliment Alan on his great write-ups. Sorry to take you for granted, Alan. Great job, as usual.

    March 11, 2013 at 1:11AM EST Reply to Comment
  • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

    Froide

    I loved seeing Beth get to be a badass!

    And it was interesting to see Merle approach the other near-outcast, his nemesis Michonne, with a proposal to collaboratively pursue their mutual interest. She didn't take the bait, but Merle's doing that might underline for the others just how dangerous the Governor is.

    March 11, 2013 at 1:17AM EST Reply to Comment
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide Nice bookend about Merle: Rick's group's no more willing to let Merle leave to get his brother than the Governor was. Disobeying the leader's orders to do so anyway will make Merle an outcst (again). Merle almost went there in this episode, but then he "got" it, and stayed put.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:39AM EST
  • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

    Froide

    I can't BELIEVE Andrea shared so much of Rick's personal history with the Governor, even if in the hopes of humanizing Rick in her bumbling attempts to help broker peace. [Rick's baby might be Shane's. Gee willikers.] Glad Michonne didn't share her personal history with that blonde blabbermouth.

    On the other hand, I'm not surprised Tyreese's group sang like canaries. At one point, I felt the Governor was trying to use what he knew to push Rick into another psychotic break.

    March 11, 2013 at 1:26AM EST Reply to Comment
  • Panther_talkback_profile

    kro_lin

    The only thing more certain than a scene with Michonne snarling is the amount of apologies from Walking Dead fans on review websites. You people are a bunch of babies.

    March 11, 2013 at 1:43AM EST Reply to Comment
    • And I'm referring to you guys that get all upset when someone comments about something they dislike about the show. Sometimes this show sucks...sometimes it doesn't. Unfortunately we all feel this pathological need to critique t.v. shows the moment the episode is over. God I'm tired of it.

      March 11, 2013 at 1:45AM EST
    • 003_talkback_profile

      Elevation That's very righteous of you. Why are you on HitFix exactly?

      March 11, 2013 at 2:16AM EST
  • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

    Froide

    More documenting of history: Morgan, on the wall last episode; Milton, with his big index card, this one.

    March 11, 2013 at 2:24AM EST Reply to Comment
    • Goldenapple_centered_talkback_profile

      Froide And the Governor's crazy journal.

      I think he tasked Milton to record Woodbury's history, and everyone knows it; hence the theme of Andrea's speech to the masses. As Christofuh Moltisanti would have termed the attack: "It's one for the books."

      March 14, 2013 at 12:27AM EST
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