Review: 'Game of Thrones' - 'Blackwater': A drink before the war
The show finally gives us an epic battle, and an intimate hour
Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister in "Game of Thrones."
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A review of Sunday night's "Game of Thrones" coming up just as soon as I'm entirely sure you're entirely sure what I'm suggesting...
"Those are brave men knocking at our door. Let's go kill them!" -Tyrion
"Blackwater" received a lot of pre-air hype because, after close to two seasons of working around showing us big battles due to time and budget issues, the show was finally devoting an entire hour to the Battle of Blackwater. And while I have for the most part been fine with the show giving us only tiny snippets of combat, the execution of "Blackwater" was outstanding. The creative team — including George R.R. Martin writing his annual script and last-minute director Neil Marshall — gave us a battle with elements of the Normandy Beach scene from "Saving Private Ryan" and the siege at Helm's Deep from "Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers," and they made it work within the context of this show and within the limits of a budget that, even expanded from the norm, would likely make Spielberg or Peter Jackson laugh. It was a thrilling hour of television, among th show's best installments ever and every bit the worthy successor to last year's penultimate installment, the head-choppin' "Baelor."
But what ultimately made "Blackwater" so impressive for me wasn't the scope, but the focus. Where the show previously took the time it wasn't spending on battles to keep advancing all the other stories, here the only way to do the battle right was to ignore everything happening away from King's Landing. So no Dany yelling about her stolen dragons in Qarth, no Jon Snow being called brave but stupid, no Theon Greyjoy being told how in over his head he is, none of Arya on the run, Robb in love nor Brienne and Jaime doing their best "Midnight Run" impression. For one hour, the only people who mattered were the ones inside the walls of King's Landing, or on the water and shore right outside.
It was, in other words, the opposite of last week's largely frustrating installment, which felt like we were somehow running in place even as we were racing across two continents. Not only did many things happen this week — Stannis being defeated, Tyrion proving himself a brilliant strategist and worthy leader (albeit one who still needed a rescue from his father's decision to take the fight to a different would-be king), Joffrey making a cowardly exit, the Hound (after leaving the battle himself because he decides the Lannisters aren't worth dying for) offering to help Sansa escape her imprisonment, Davos losing his son (and possibly his own life) — but the amount of time spent in this one corner of the story made every moment feel bigger and richer.
It wasn't even that the hour was wall-to-wall action. We spent a good chunk of time just waiting for Stannis' ships to arrive, which allowed the tension to build, and also to deepen our appreciation of several of the key characters. Bronn saving the Hound's life on the beach becomes far more satisfying because of the earlier scene where they're on the verge of a duel to the death simply because the Hound's blood is up. (Similarly, we get to know Tyrion's squire Podrick so that Tyrion's life isn't saved by some random background extra.) Tyrion's big speech to the troops (which I'm guessing will be Peter Dinklage's Emmy submission this year) was allowed to breathe, starting out at a point where even Tyrion doesn't necessarily believe what he's saying any more than the men do, until they arrive at a moment where both he and they have bought into the rhetoric and the so-crazy-it-just-might-work battle plan. We spend so much time in the stronghold where the women and children are hiding out that the tension grows unbearable, and where Sansa might realistically come to a place where she'd be willing to run away even in the company of the terrifying Hound.
It was an hour the show had spent a season building towards, and in terms of the scale, one they can't afford to do on more than a once-per-season basis at the most. But I'd like to think that in addition to realizing they can pull off something this big now and again, Benioff and Weiss also recognize that there's value to shaking up the usual format. The huge cast of characters and the many locations where their stories take place is a strength of "Game of Thrones," but it can also be a weakness. I like a lot of the people we didn't see this week, but I also didn't exactly miss them, and I'd be fine with more episodes in the future that sticks to one locale and set of characters.
"Blackwater" was an instance of more being more, in terms of how big and exciting the battle scenes were, but it was also a case of less being much, much more.
Some other thoughts:
* I've got the usual spoiler warning down below, but I'm mentioning it up top because there are a couple of major character things that are left somewhat ambiguous, and I don't want any book readers talking about either as a done deal. I'm assuming Davos is dead, but the episode goes out of its way to show us his son dying while only giving us the sight of Davos flying through the air after the ship blows up from the wildfire. This could be an instance where he turns up floating in the water, clinging to debris but living to fight another day. Similarly, I'm assuming Sansa does agree to go with the Hound, but the scene deliberately cuts away as she's still holding onto her doll, not after she's dropped it to follow him.
* Though I alluded to it earlier, Tyrion's plan with the wildfire was delightful in how clever and effective it turned out to be.
* A great episode for Cersei, including her lament about how she was raised compared to Jaime (if Ned Stark was her father, she'd have gotten sword-fighting lessons), her nearly getting to the bottom of Shae's identity before Lancel barges in with news of the battle, and then her being on the verge of euthanizing her younger son before her father's forces save the day.
* Speaking of Tywin, I liked the misdirection last week, where we and Arya think he's preparing to mount a sneak attack on Robb's forces, when in fact he's decided he's needed more badly battling Stannis than the King in the North.
* No screener again for the finale, so don't look for it before sometime next Monday.
Finally, we're going to keep the book/spoiler issue as simple as possible. We are here to discuss "Game of Thrones" AS A TV SHOW, NOT AS AN ENDLESS SERIES OF COMPARISONS TO THE BOOKS. Therefore, here's the only rule you should remember: if your comment contains the phrase "the books" without it being immediately preceded by "I haven't read," then you should probably delete what you've written and start over. Anything even vaguely questionable will be deleted, and if you see something that I haven't already removed, please feel free to email me. As usual, I've set up a message board discussion thread where you can do as much TV vs. books discussion as you want. In these comments, everything book-related that has yet to come up on the TV show (plot, characters we haven't met, motivation, etc.) is verboten.
What did everybody else think?
Alan Sepinwall may be reached at sepinwall@hitfix.com
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Next 338 CommentsMike
May 28, 2012 at 8:29AM EST Reply to CommentHaha, "You probably won't see this until Tuesday." Suuuuure, Alan.
It seems like you've decided Tyrion is still alive? God, I hope so. I generally loved the episode--the battle was suitably epic, the scenes with Cersei and Sansa were awesome, and Bronn was, well, Bronn--but I wanted to step in with a little bit of a complaint.
You noted that sharpening the focus was a great choice, and I'd agree, but I also feel like it might have been too little, too late. Honestly, I just didn't care what happened to Davos' son, and that kind of encapsulated how I retroactively feel about many of the Stannis scenes from earlier in the season. What happened to Melisandre, or that Pirate who wanted to rape Cersei? It's possible that they'll return in the finale or even next season, but at this point, much of the time wasted on them feels like fan service. It's not often that I feel B/W are just checking off moments from the books, but at this point, those scenes really do feel like that. I need a resolution with those guys, or at least a reason they seemed so important.
Anyway, thanks for another great write-up and enjoy your holiday!
sepinwall "Haha, "You probably won't see this until Tuesday." Suuuuure, Alan."
May 28, 2012 at 8:41AM ESTThe simplicity of the episode actually made it possible. Had this been a more traditionally-structured episode, I'd have needed more time to properly review it, I think.
George Of course he's alive. But it looks like he'll have a nasty scar on his face...
May 28, 2012 at 12:51PM ESTdarthzombie Well remember a couple episodes back Davos got Stannis to leave Melisandre behind. So this would be his victory and not hers again like with Renly. Now why they didn't show the pirate again, well you got me...
May 28, 2012 at 2:38PM ESTBigDerf In this modern era of television, I never believe anyone is dead unless we see them actually die, or see the dead body. Tyrion and Davos were shown being injured, but not killed or dead, So I'm basically 100% confidant they'll be around next week.
May 28, 2012 at 6:19PM ESTGuest Ben, the way you phrased it that's essentially a book spoiler
May 28, 2012 at 6:39PM EST
They should take a page out of LOST's book, and shrink the focus each week. I agree that this one worked better because it was focused on really just two sparring groups. In LOST's meandering but great third-season, the castaways were spread out over many parts of the island, nevermind the flashbacks and flashforwards. If we had an episode that took place in only one or two locales with a few sets of characters and then dropped those guys for a week to shift focus to others, I think it would work better and allow the stories to be told more organically and not so disjointedly. And I doubt people would really forget about or lose interest in the misadventures of Jon Snow just because we don't see him wandering around the barren North for a few minutes each episode.
May 29, 2012 at 7:03PM ESTNils
May 28, 2012 at 8:30AM EST Reply to CommentIf Tyrion lives (and I expect he does live), he's got a cool Omar-style star on his forehead and cheek.
Nils *scar, I mean.
May 28, 2012 at 8:30AM ESTJamie oh indeed.
May 28, 2012 at 8:43AM ESTJP No doubt.
May 28, 2012 at 9:05AM ESTZZ "You Come At the King,You Best Not Miss."
May 28, 2012 at 9:40AM ESTOmagus ^We'll make an exception if it's Joffrey though. I'm sure Omar would understand.
May 28, 2012 at 11:35AM ESTCol Bat Guano Starburns on Tyrion would be cool.
May 28, 2012 at 2:17PM ESTthe minister that's: "you come at The Hand, you best not miss."
May 28, 2012 at 8:51PM ESTkinda sorta.
MAD Mos def.
May 30, 2012 at 9:01AM ESTFrancisco
May 28, 2012 at 8:30AM EST Reply to CommentTywin is such a great character.. Even in the tiny amount of camera he received last night he was absolutely terrifying.. Like he is a force of nature that didn't save King's Landing as much as just did his job, winning amazing battles.
Robo entered it ... LIKE A BOSS!
May 28, 2012 at 9:40AM ESTLJA Seriously. He showed up like the HBIC he is. It was pretty awesome.
May 28, 2012 at 11:59AM ESTdezbot HBIC?
May 28, 2012 at 1:50PM ESTLJA HBIC = head bitch in charge
May 28, 2012 at 2:26PM ESTthe minister THNWIC.
May 28, 2012 at 8:52PM ESTDr. Dunkenstein
May 28, 2012 at 8:31AM EST Reply to CommentI'm glad you mentioned the Two Towers comparison Alan because it also immediately came to my mind in both positive and negative ways. They were able to make a battle of convincing scale and scope on this show's budget and there were a number of moments that did really achieve some sense of epicness.
That said, like like the battle in the Two Towers, it was an epic battle that seemed to be of very little consequence to the characters in the show that we know or care about and generated almost all of it's drama by putting characters in seemingly doomed situations only to be saved at the very last moment by extremely fortuitous timing. The closest thing we see to a character of any import suffer a consequence is the vague fate of Davos that you allude to.
You can go to that well once or twice but to do it, by my count, four separate times feels like a bit of a cheat.
ANGEL I disagree, there are several resolutions in this battle. 1) Stannis is defeated removing one of the would be challengers for the throne. 2) Tyrion possibly dies, a major point. 3) Loras Tyrell joining forces with Tywin bodes ill for Robb stark in my opinion. Also now we might see Marg make a play for Queen. 4) Sansa has possibly escaped which will only help the Starks
May 28, 2012 at 10:46AM ESTOmagus Completely agree with Angel. Plus, having Tywin no longer out battling Robb will probably prove significant. Wonder if he would have made the same choice if he had any idea that Jaime was no longer imprisoned.
May 28, 2012 at 11:56AM ESTOmagus Also can't forget about The Hound abandoning Joffrey.
May 28, 2012 at 11:58AM ESTjoel I have to agree with Angel. This is a battle of critical proporitions, and what happens when Brienne shows up with Jaime and discovers there's no Stark children left to bargain for? And did I misread that, or is The Mountain now dead? Plus, Shae is now in deep trouble, as Cersi isn't likely to forget the handmaiden who doesn't belong.
May 28, 2012 at 12:05PM ESTAnyway, a great episode on a TV budget. I loved the fires raging in the hall as the battle begins and later, cut to Cersi on the throne preparing to kill her own son and the great pillars of dark smoke smoldering as the fires have run out. BRILLIANT!!
Omagus "And did I misread that, or is The Mountain now dead?"
May 28, 2012 at 3:15PM EST--
The Mountain wasn't in this episode at all.
*
"Plus, Shae is now in deep trouble, as Cersi isn't likely to forget the handmaiden who doesn't belong."
--
Not necessarily. Cersei was quite drunk by that time so it's possible she doesn't remember that conversation.
joel Thanks, after I posted I saw the long series of repetitive posts explaining who Tyrion's page killed. As for Cersei, yeah, she may have been quite drunk but she was already putting 2+2 together before she was interrupted.
May 28, 2012 at 4:00PM ESTthe minister very little consequence? seriously?
May 28, 2012 at 8:58PM ESTPretty sure the Lannisters just secured the Iron Throne fer rills. Think about how many men Tywin just wrapped up allying with the Tyrells... (and there's a whole bunch o' stuff I'm not allowed to mention here but that should be pretty easy for you to suss out.)
That seems to me... what's the word I'm looking for? significant? relevant? salient? oh yes, "CONSEQUENTIAL."
"In a (meaningful) consecutive sequence": yeah, that was it. Definition mine.
the minister I forgot "apropos." 60k of UVA English Major right down the drain, 'reckon. And I'm class of '89. Not to mention sentences starting with conjunctions. And sentence fragments.
May 28, 2012 at 9:03PM ESTthe minister I did manage to homophone up "Tyrells" with "fer rills" though (entirely subconsciously.)
May 28, 2012 at 9:09PM ESTPerhaps my parents should immediately cease weeping.
the minister In conclusion, don't post drunk.
May 28, 2012 at 9:11PM ESTtijde Angel, I have to disagree with #4. When Brienne and Jaime get to KL and the trade isn't honored (because the Lannisters have no Starks to trade), how is Robb going to react? Is he really going to believe "Oh sorry, we had them but they both ran away separately", or is he going to be a fool and try to rush to their rescue?
May 28, 2012 at 11:31PM ESTDr. Dunkenstein @Angel: I think the number of times you use the word "possibly" or allude to how events in this episode might possibly affect things in the future is kind of my point.
May 29, 2012 at 2:26PM ESTEric
May 28, 2012 at 8:32AM EST Reply to CommentI think that was a great episode of television. The focus was appreciated (I'm sure they'll be back to the other story lines next week), the battle was more well-realized than I had even hoped, the hound rose several notches in the overall character rankings... enjoyed it all thoroughly.
Charles Let's not forget that the Hound's main motivation in 'saving' Sansa is to use her as a bargaining chip. The only hope he has left is to take her back north and hope he can use her to claim some sort of reward from the Starks.
May 28, 2012 at 2:48PM ESTBigDerf I dunno Charles. The Hound has had a (slightly creepy) interest in Sansa for a while now. I honestly think he might just feel bad for her, and knows her leaving will piss the Lannisters off.
May 28, 2012 at 6:22PM ESTthe minister The Hound gonna do what that hound gonna do.
May 28, 2012 at 9:00PM ESTDezbot I think the Hound has a crush on Sansa. He's been helping her for awhile now.
May 29, 2012 at 11:10AM ESTK42 "I think the Hound has a crush on Sansa."
June 2, 2012 at 12:28AM ESTNot that I'd blame him for that. Now she's also revealed as a good drinker and subtle prospective kingslayer ("My brother always goes where the battle is thicker, and he's just a pretender. I'm sure you'll be braver than him, Your Grace"). (Too bad he wasn't).
Phil
May 28, 2012 at 8:32AM EST Reply to CommentAwesome stuff.
jerod
May 28, 2012 at 8:32AM EST Reply to Commentamazing episode...best of the season!!! Bring on the finale!
George It was an excellent episode (not to mention the most action-packed) -- definitely one of the best ever.
May 28, 2012 at 12:57PM ESTPhil
May 28, 2012 at 8:32AM EST Reply to CommentAwesome stuff
May 28, 2012 at 8:32AM EST Reply to CommentBest hour of television I've watched this year!
Mike It was my favourite hour of TV this year...for a grand total of an hour, until I saw Mad Men. But 2nd place isn't bad--hot damn, what a night for TV that was.
May 28, 2012 at 11:40AM ESTLJA I'm with you, Mike. It was a great double header.
May 28, 2012 at 12:00PM ESTPanduh Yes! Sunday nights are always awesome, but last night was AWESOME. GoT and Mad Men were both stellar.
May 28, 2012 at 12:10PM ESTtijde Reply to comment...
May 28, 2012 at 11:32PM ESTtijde Oops, sorry 'bout that. I agree; yesterday was an awesome day for tv.
May 28, 2012 at 11:43PM ESTGbemi Murphy Absolutely! It was an Amazing night for those of us who watch both GOT and MM. I was so excited I found it difficult to go to sleep afterwards. I truly cannot for the life of me understand why people watch these silly reality shows when there is quality programming like this.
May 29, 2012 at 7:38AM ESTFrancisco
May 28, 2012 at 8:33AM EST Reply to CommentAlso, what about Loras fighting for King Joffrey? That was a pretty big thing right?
JP I'm assuming this means Littlefinger has successfully negotiated a Lannister-Tyrell alliance.
May 28, 2012 at 9:25AM ESTkeith Yeah. I didn't realise that whole thread was going on in the background but it's obvious now. "She wants to be queen" - all that stuff.
May 28, 2012 at 10:30AM ESTGeorge I don't think anyone's really fighting for Joffrey. They just want to maintain control, and defeat their enemies.
May 28, 2012 at 1:00PM ESTbbq_hax0r The Lannisters (and Joffrey) seem to be consolidating their power fairly well, eh? They've essentially gotten rid of the Baratheon's now. Robb (Starks + Tullys) have a lot on their plate. Arryn is still isolated. The Tyrells have joined up. You assume the the Martells will be on board (since the whole marriage). The Greyjoy dont appear to have much interest in challenging them. Croikey.
May 28, 2012 at 1:03PM ESTthe minister You could probably put survival and dominion in equal measure for the Tyrells.
May 28, 2012 at 9:19PM ESTThey are quite opportunistic, and holy moley I'm glad to see the gal from The Tudors with an expanded/aged role from the books. She's quite a solid actress and a Stone. Cold. Fox.
Mike "George I don't think anyone's really fighting for Joffrey. They just want to maintain control, and defeat their enemies."
May 29, 2012 at 11:01AM ESTAfter all it is a game right...
Danny
May 28, 2012 at 8:34AM EST Reply to CommentAt the end that was Renlys, lover that made his way into the throne room. Which I assume means, the Lannisters army has now grown significantly larger.
Matt Yup. If you remember a few episodes back, Littlefinger visited Tywin at Harrenhal and dangled the idea of an alliance with the Tyrells (Loras and Margaery's family). Obviously Tywin accepted that offer offscreen, so we could have the last minute reveal here.
May 28, 2012 at 9:22AM EST
How old is Renly's widow, Margaery? Could there be some story there of Joffrey making her his wife and "THE queen"? I know marrying his "aunt" would seem creepy to some, but Cersei and Jaime have removed all walls from what the Lannisters will do in the name of self-promotion.
May 28, 2012 at 10:03AM ESTJojo monkey boy Even if Joffrey wasn't an incest product and was Robert B's actual son, Margaery wouldn't be blood related since she is a Tyrell.
May 28, 2012 at 10:48AM ESTDanny I think he was calling Marg, his aunt, because she was briefly married to his uncle Renly.. But, you can count on her marrying Joff, she doesn't want to be a queen, she wants to be THE queen, and after that battle I would say the Lannisters now clearly hold the most power.
May 28, 2012 at 12:46PM ESTDB Cooper I totally missd that, probably b/c they kept showing Lancel, who looks vaguely similar to Lora's Tyrell (pretty and longhaired).
May 28, 2012 at 1:46PM ESTNick Loras was wearing Renly's armor. He was supposed to be "Renly's Ghost" and a lot of Stannis' men who were previously Renly men fled b/c they though Renly had been raised from the dead and was fighting against them.
May 28, 2012 at 4:01PM ESTfresser28 Well, Sansa has taken a powder with the Hound so she'll be dead meat in Joffrey's eyes, and Loras coming in with Tywin was extremely telling, so yeah - I think Margaery has a good shot at becoming "THE Queen" now, especially if Tywin has anything to say about it (and you know she will).
May 28, 2012 at 10:32PM ESTI'm just afraid the Lannisters will hunt Sansa down next year because of her "betrayal" to her prospective husband. But it makes sense - Loras leads quite a few more men than Robb Stark does, and I think at this point the Lannisters would rather smash Robb down than align his family to theirs. Poor Sansa, though.
In all, a really interesting episode.
Ricky
May 28, 2012 at 8:36AM EST Reply to CommentTerrific stuff, i can't believe how they managed it on a TV show budget. That green fire was amazing. Well done to the GFX people.
Also the scope felt just about right, panning shots of big crowds, but lots of close up, claustrophobic combat
joel Alan, not that you need more things to do, but it would be really interesting to find out how the production of The Pacific differed from this season of Game of Thrones. Both have a lot of FX work with large casts, both are 10 hours long, both feature numerous locations, and I believe both cost about the same price to shoot. But it seems as though The Pacific has far more action than Game of Thrones. I'm just wondering where Game of Thrones' budget goes to most: costumes and set production, crew and location, etc?
May 28, 2012 at 12:09PM ESTIf you or anyone else gets around to figuring this out, it would be a great article or interview to read.
Josh Joel: I believe the Pacific was the most expensive TV show ever made at about $200million. Wikipedia tells me GoT season 1 cost 50-60million, with season 2 being about 15% more than that. So that's a significant difference, which is where all your battle scenes would come in.
May 28, 2012 at 12:17PM ESTjoel Ha, well you're right, it does say that. So that is a ridiculously low-budget for 10 hours of TV at this scale. My hat is off to HBO for pulling this off, especially when you consider they're shooting all that North of the Wall stuff on location in Greenland.
May 28, 2012 at 12:32PM ESTrr Iceland, not Greenland
May 29, 2012 at 6:09AM ESTConatonc Yeah, Iceland has shooting advantages Greenland does not, like civilization and infrastructure.
May 29, 2012 at 11:22AM ESTNick
May 28, 2012 at 8:37AM EST Reply to CommentI tend to dislike battles and, frankly, action sequences in general. They ultimately feel pointless and uninteresting to me. But that was damn good. I'm incredibly impressed with the craftsmanship on display here. To execute something like this for television without seeming cheap is a real feat. There was no point at which I was even thinking about the budget. So kudos to Neil Marshall, who directed one of my favorite horror movies, The Descent.
My only complaint would be with the way it wraps up. Tywin announcing they've won felt too sudden. Much rather would've been informed ahead of time because it didn't surprise so much as bewilder.
Tom in NJ
May 28, 2012 at 8:41AM EST Reply to CommentGreat episode. Tyrion is clearly the hero of the battle for the Lannisters so it'll be interesting to see if he finally gets the respect he deserves from his family.
CJ We as the audience saw Tyrion being the main hero of the battle, but the tales told after the battle will all be about how Tywin rode in to save the day.
May 28, 2012 at 2:17PM ESTJack D I was thinking the same, @Tom... I can't wait for next week in the hopes of some more Tyrion redemption in the eyes of his father, Tywin. That first scene a while back where he sends him to act in his place was powerful. I think that Tywin will have to get word that (A) Tyrion arranged for the green-fire initial attack; (B) Tyrion led the deft charge from behind (the fighters were all chanting half-man so they and the populace know this) which bolsters Tywin's mistaken belief that Tyrion fought in the battle where he was knocked unconscious before getting to the fighting line (or out of the camp); (C) his grandson, Joffrey, retreated in the time of need, perhaps at the urging of his mother, but still WRONG; and (D) Tyrion doing the job he was sent to do: be the hand and maintain power long enough for Tywin to assume the position.
May 28, 2012 at 4:50PM ESTPerhaps this will play out subtlety with Tywin just seeking Tyrion's counsel and acting out on that counsel without contradiction (or, dare I say, hesitation).
It's obvious Tyrion wants paternal validation... and I want it for him too.
(Nope. Never read any of the books. An internet avatar can dream, can't it?)
WeeBay @ Jack D: I want Tywin to notice all of those things and then I want him to pull his grandson close and ask: "Hey Joffrey, does this wine taste like Nightshade to you?"
May 28, 2012 at 11:25PM ESTJamie
May 28, 2012 at 8:43AM EST Reply to CommentThank you Allen for getting this out so soon.
Despite the finality associated with a war, I think this episode one and for all branded this season as a transitional one. Either that or I severely overestimated the tact of the showrunners (which I don't think I did.)
Where does this leave Mellisandre? Whatever happened to Davos' black pirate friend? Where is Ser Barristan Selmy these days? I have my own theories that I'll keep to my self, but these examples all speak to the open-endedness of this season.
And the battle scenes with Stannis left me wishing we had seen more of him and Davos leading up to Blackwater instead of those aimless Jon Snow and Dany scenes.
**And another thing regarding last weeks episode. I was kind of surprised that no one here mentioned Jaqen telling Arya that she lacked honor while bargaining for his life, and Arya's ambivalent reaction given how prominent of a theme honor is, and specifically how the Starks view it
JP I feel that the need to tell the story of the entire second book in one season has short-changed a lot of characters. I would have liked to have learned more about Davos and Stannis ahead of time, one, because they're interesting characters and two, because it would have better framed their desire to take Kings Landing and Stannis's anguish at his defeat. I hear the next season will be half of the third book and the next after that will conclude it. I almost wish they'd done that here.
May 28, 2012 at 9:09AM ESTjoel Jamie: That's a good point about Arya. Reading between the lines of her conversations with Tywin that she now sees everything in a somewhat different light since her father's execution, and witnessing the Lannister's murdering her entire household. I have a feeling Arya has a dim view of honor and what honor in the Westeros entails.
May 28, 2012 at 12:13PM ESTJamie Yeah Joel I think she's going to down a very dark path from this point in the season and onwards. She's stupidly fearless, vengeful, clever, a bit bloodthirsty, and views honor as trivial and trite. Not to mention she has already killed before and has developed the skill to do so. She's like an amalgam of Jon Snow, Briene of Tarth, and Bronn.
May 29, 2012 at 3:39AM ESTBrian I get the desire to want to focus more on character development, but the only way to do that while still hitting on all of the major plot points would have been to split Book 2 into 2 different seasons. However, with 7 planned books, they really can't. Can you really see HBO committing to 12-14 seasons of GoT?
May 29, 2012 at 10:14AM ESTjoel @Brian: That does sound sort of absurd doesn't it, but then again this is a business. If ratings stay strong, I could see them sticking with it for quite some time. HBO's goal is to create strong, long running series to hold viewers/subscribers. The Sopranos ran 9 years. Their biggest issue is keeping their cast of actors involved, and keeping the storytelling engaging. It's probably going to be very difficult to keep their core cast engaged in these characters that long.
May 29, 2012 at 10:26AM ESTjoel I was counting production time, not seasons. Technically it ran 7 seasons, but it was really 8.
May 29, 2012 at 10:32AM ESTConatonc Book 1- Season 1
May 29, 2012 at 11:27AM ESTBook 2- Season 2
Book 3- Seasons 3 + 4
Books 4 + 5 (which happens somewhat concurrently)- Seasons 5, 6 and maybe 7
Book 6- ???
Book 7- ???
Probably 10-11 seasons when all is said and done if the ratings stay strong and Martin actually finishes the last two books in a timely fashion.
CM They can cut a lot of fat from books 4/5 and I could see them eliminating entire storylines as well. No way they take up three seasons on those books.
May 29, 2012 at 4:24PM ESTBrian @Joel: Good point about keeping the characters around that long. Also, isn't Sopranos the longest running show (in terms of seasons) that HBO has ever done? Hard to believe they are going to do the 10+ seasons it will take to finish GoT. But considering how popular it has become, they have to, right?
May 29, 2012 at 5:35PM ESTPaul
May 28, 2012 at 8:43AM EST Reply to CommentThe scenes of Cersei and Sansa kind of reminded me of a really dark, twisted version of Edina and Saffron on AbFab. Must have been all the wine.
sangs
May 28, 2012 at 8:47AM EST Reply to CommentSo do we know which member of the Kingsguard it was that struck down Tyrion? That development stunned me, coming so close on the heels of his stirring speech and near-successful "**** them in the ass" strategy.
And please, I'm begging the gods both old and new, do no let Tyrion be dead.
Nils Wow, it was a member of the Kingsguard that struck Tyrion? Didn't catch that.
May 28, 2012 at 8:51AM ESTJeff Yes, it was the same man whom Joffrey instructed to act as representative of the king, if I'm remembering helmet shapes correctly.
May 28, 2012 at 9:11AM ESTDrew Yes I realized that too. It was the kings guard that that horriblle coward left for him.Was he instructed to take him out in the midst of the battle?
May 28, 2012 at 9:11AM ESTSwearin My assumption, as a non-book reader, was Cersei arranged it so one way or another, Tyrion wouldn't make it out of the battle alive.
May 28, 2012 at 9:11AM ESTJustin It was the same guy that Tyrion's had problems with before. The one Tyrion told Bronn to kill if he talks again. The one who yelled "I take orders from the king" during the riot. Also the guy who killed Syrio in season 1.
May 28, 2012 at 9:11AM ESTJP It was Ser Mandon, who most memorably was the one irritated at Tyrion when he put a stop to the humiliation of Sansa in the throne room.
May 28, 2012 at 9:11AM ESTmimdawn I believe it was Ser Meryn Trant, the member of the kings guard that Tyrion told to raise the King's banner.
May 28, 2012 at 9:14AM ESTMilk steak It was ser mandon Moore. He was the one guarding cersei when she threatened tyrion that she would hurt his whore if anything happened to joffrey
May 28, 2012 at 9:22AM ESTJohn We know the names of three members of the Kingsguard besides Jaime and the Hound - Ser Meryn Trant (whom we've actually seen the most of, and who's the one that killed Syrio and was chastised by Tyrion and Bronn in the throne room), Ser Boros Blount, and Ser Mandon Moore. It was Ser Boros and Ser Mandon whom Joffrey left with Tyrion when he headed back to the Keep. I believe it was Ser Mandon who attacked Tyrion. I'm not sure we know why he did it - we've basically seen nothing of him up to this point.
May 28, 2012 at 9:27AM ESTRollie "Ser Meryn Trant (whom we've actually seen the most of, and who's the one that killed Syrio and was chastised by Tyrion and Bronn in the throne room)"
May 28, 2012 at 11:06AM ESTI don't know if it was this name, but it was definitely the actor who was involved in all that stuff that tried to kill Tyrion, and then got speared through the face.
Rollie Strike that, damn shadows made me think the guy had a beard, which he didn't. Now I'm upset, cause I was really happy that bastard died.
May 28, 2012 at 11:10AM ESTbob it was ser mandon moore. This has been asked and answered. Why are we still having the discussion?
May 28, 2012 at 11:17AM ESTShane Killed Syrio? That was never shown, implied or said.....
May 28, 2012 at 11:40AM ESTjoel @Shane: It was definitely implied. You hear a man screaming in agony as Arya runs from the room in that episode, and Syrio is taking the short end of a broken wooden sword in no armor up against a fully-armored opponent with a long sword. Do the math.
May 28, 2012 at 12:17PM ESTSparks @Joel The 1st Sword of Bravos does not seem the man to scream. There was a lot of death going on all over the Red Keep that day, could have been one of a hundred men screaming.
May 28, 2012 at 4:30PM ESTkeith
May 28, 2012 at 8:48AM EST Reply to CommentGreat television. Did Tyrion die? I couldn't tell.
greatplans Dougie, you think that might be a bit of a spoiler?
May 28, 2012 at 9:11AM ESTkeith I suppose so. I just figured people see things in a different way to me. Alan, feel free to delete my question in case someone who's read the books answers it.
May 28, 2012 at 10:33AM ESTsepinwall I already deleted Dougie's answer, because Dougie somehow failed to read the repeated reminders to NOT TALK ABOUT THINGS FROM THE BOOKS THAT HAVE YET TO HAPPEN ON THE SHOW.
May 28, 2012 at 11:47AM ESTLevi Benjamin As someone who hasn't read the books, I'd assume that Tyrion is alive. Not because he's too important to die, but because of the way he was cut, it's obvious that's meant for him to have an awesome scar from. Also, the way he closed his eyes at the end was in relief that his father had come back to save the day, not a look resignation that his death had come.
May 28, 2012 at 12:02PM ESTlt Don't think so. The writers have Cersei (OFF SCREEN) telling her youngest a story about the father returning or something, during the visual of Tyrion watching Tywin return. Can't recall the exact lines, but it seemed written to imply that the writers wanted us to focus on the father-son relationship and how what's just happened is going to affect it....
May 31, 2012 at 2:38AM ESTJamie
May 28, 2012 at 8:48AM EST Reply to CommentAlso give it up for The National's Matt Berninger and his awesome baritone on that "The Rains of Castamere"rendition during the credits.
Geoff amazing.
May 28, 2012 at 9:35AM ESTJared K Once iTunes releases it, I”ll be listening to "The Rains of Castamere" by The National on repeat for at least a week. Though I’d pay double for the Bronn-led version.
May 28, 2012 at 9:42AM ESTDB Cooper I loved it, but would also like to hear other versions, particularly rap and narcocorrido - modern genres a little closer to the purpose of the original song.
May 28, 2012 at 1:57PM ESTTom Strange. When I read this thread Tuesday morning, that song, and an album of the second season music WAS up on iTunes. It is no longer there.
May 30, 2012 at 1:45AM ESTSazzyMCH
May 28, 2012 at 8:50AM EST Reply to CommentBrilliant. That is all.
conorjh
May 28, 2012 at 8:51AM EST Reply to CommentI assumed the Hound quit not because he is sick of the Lannisters, or not just because of that, but because he is afraid of fire; I am guessing that the scar on his face is a burn.
Harry Yep, that's a burn on the Hound's face. When he was a child, his brother the Mountain pushed his face into a fire. The Mountain was a brute even then.
May 28, 2012 at 9:00AM ESTJP That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that. I thought his turning tail was a bit too sudden, but that would make sense. He reared back when the alchemist gave Tyrion the torch for the signal, too.
May 28, 2012 at 9:13AM ESTZZ just when I thought the Hound wasn't cool already, he showed fear ... which opened up his character far more than before.
May 28, 2012 at 9:45AM ESTlove. the. hound.
Kato The Hound also threatened the lead archer about keeping flaming arrows away him.
May 28, 2012 at 10:06AM ESTPod This was brought up last season during the tourney, but I wished they could have brought it up again sometime this season. As a book reader I knew exactly what was going on with the Hound, but I can see how a show-only viewer might be confused by his abrupt turn.
May 28, 2012 at 10:31AM ESTchrispepper yeah I picked up on that aswell.. Really cool character development for the Hound.
May 28, 2012 at 10:32AM ESTAngel Looks like the Hound had some serious PTSD. But I also think he was sick of taking orders from Joffrey. I mean who wouldn't be
May 28, 2012 at 10:53AM ESTbbq_hax0r I noticed it was fire, too. Hound was shocked that people were on fire and must have had flashbacks. What he said to Tyrion and Joffrey was amazing. The way he delivered it, savage!
May 28, 2012 at 1:15PM EST"Fuck the King."
DB Cooper I think the fire + Tyrion's naval holocaust brought him to the proverbial "I'm too old for this shit" realization.
May 28, 2012 at 1:59PM ESTHan Solem Its funny, because I just finished "The Girl Who Played With Fire", and my first thought as the hound Gasped and retreated from the battle was to the blonde giant retreating from Lisbeth back from the dead. It wasn't losing the battle - or even death - that made him fall back, but the adolescent fear of fire that made him turn tail. Greatly done, and another instance of the show conveying so much emotion and feeling without saying a word. Fantastic...
May 29, 2012 at 1:51AM ESTDougie
May 28, 2012 at 8:52AM EST Reply to CommentBOOM!
Harry
May 28, 2012 at 8:58AM EST Reply to CommentI didn't actually catch what had happened until I saw Tywin walk into the throne room. When Tyrion was on the beach, he's about to get killed when a huge soldier kills Tyrion's attacker. At first I think it's the Mountain but dismiss that thought because the Mountain is with Tywin's forces and they're up north dealing with Robb. I guess it was indeed the Mountain.
Do we know if he's dead, btw?
Build A Better Fan That wasn't the Mountain. That was Ser Mandon Moore. The Mountain is indeed out in the West, but I think last we heard he's hunting the mysterious Brotherhood.
May 28, 2012 at 9:11AM ESTAnd no, it's television and George R.R. Martin, which is like a double helping of reasons why you can't say whether someone has died or survived without very strong confirmation.
Dan Tyrion was saved by his dimwited squire, the slow kid that has been helping him lately.
May 28, 2012 at 9:29AM ESTHarry Sorry for the confusion, I knew Tyrion survived. I was asking if the Mountain survived. But since it turns out that it was not, in fact, the Mountain, I don't especially care.
May 28, 2012 at 10:41AM ESTShane The Mountain was left at Harrenhal to hunt the "Brotherhood". Arya was supposed to stay and be his cupbearer, this of course before she cashed in her chip with Jaqen H'ghar
May 28, 2012 at 11:43AM ESTlouisjab Good point Shane. So that leaves us with only one logical possibility: Sansa and the Hound ride towards Winterfell, they reach Arya and her friends along the way, then the Mountain attacks them because he's mad about his cupbearer leaving and we get a rematch of the brother's fight in season 1. Or I don't know what logic is. It's one or the other.
May 28, 2012 at 6:57PM ESTbitchstolemyremote
May 28, 2012 at 9:00AM EST Reply to CommentFor me the episode was all about Cersei: Headley did so much with a simple drunken night, it made me barely miss the battle sequences because I wanted to know what else she would do/say. Leave it to Game of Thrones to focus on the characters during a giant battle - it makes you realize how different it is compared to a traditional action film.
Our take: http://wp.me/p1VQBq-Yx
Pod I agree! Lena Headey completely stole the show. I even found myself wishing they'd go back to Cersei during the battle scenes.
May 28, 2012 at 10:34AM ESTExcept for the one with Pod being a hero, of course.
LJA Agree. Cersei was more terrifying than anything that was going on outside. This was easily Lena Heady's Emmy submission episode. I thought she was brilliant.
May 28, 2012 at 12:07PM ESTA She didn't seem any drunker than any other scene she's been in; not sure how to see Headley as doing anything other than sleepwalking through her bad dialogue on one setting & facial expression: contempt.
May 28, 2012 at 1:45PM ESTJohnnyG I'm just waiting for Cersei to join the Cul-de-sac crew for some wine time.
May 28, 2012 at 3:02PM ESTBuild A Better Fan
May 28, 2012 at 9:01AM EST Reply to Comment"the Hound (after leaving the battle himself because he decides the Lannisters aren't worth dying for)"
Worth *burning* for. He's never been particularly frightened of death, but if you think about his most formative (or disformative) experiences, you'll recall why all those burning men (and the prospect of being hit by a flaming arrow) freaked him out.
"A great episode for Cersei, including her lament about how she was raised compared to Jaime (if Ned Stark was her father, she'd have gotten sword-fighting lessons)"
Damn! How could Martin not have given us a scene where Cersei witnesses (or at first hears about) Arya's dancing lessons? That would have been brilliant!
Swearin
May 28, 2012 at 9:07AM EST Reply to Comment"What did everybody else think?"
I think between "If you cut me in half I'd be the Quarter-Man, and that just doesn't have the same ring to it" and "Oh, f*ck me" and all his lines between those two, Dinklage just won another Emmy.
soboredskin Forgive me if this has been touched on before, but has Peter Dinklage moved into the lead actor category, and would he submit himself as such? I'd love to hear thoughts.
May 28, 2012 at 9:25AM ESTJared K According to Gold Derby.com (via Wikipedia), HBO submitted Peter Dinklage under the Best Supporting Actor in a Drama (other network-submitted acting nominees include Alfie Allen, Richard Madden, and Kit Harrington). That's presumably where they'll direct their promotional resources. Dinklage could theoretically work around HBO's campaign and submit himself as a Lead Actor, but I would guess he'll stick to supporting because as the defending champion, he has the inside track to another nomination even in a very competitive field. The Lead Actor category, as has been mentioned several times, is even more of a murderer's row (Hamm, Cranston, Hall, Laurie, Grammar, Lewis, Olyphant, etc.)
May 28, 2012 at 10:19AM ESTbbq_hax0r Dinklage is now the first (or second) name in the intro sequence I believe. So I have just assumed he had become the lead. I don't know what qualifies a person for one versus the other, but it seems hes the lead now based on the presentation of the show.
May 28, 2012 at 1:17PM ESTCJ In a show that focuses more on the full ensemble, it's possible that nobody is officially designated as the "lead." While it's obviously a totally different genre, that's what Modern Family does with all of its actors. Everybody submits their material for supporting actor/actress, and nobody for lead. I assume GoT will follow that same trend for its entire run.
May 28, 2012 at 2:25PM ESTJP @BBQ: I think the order of the intro sequence is alphabetical. Charles Dance was the first one listed this week.
May 28, 2012 at 4:11PM ESTBrian Hamm and Cranston have been, IMO, the two best actor's on TV for the past few years. But if you put a gun to my head, I think I would have to vote for Dinklage for Best Lead Actor. He is just so freaking good in this show.
May 29, 2012 at 10:28AM ESTbbq_hax0r It's not alphabetical. I just watched it again tonight it was Dinklage -> Headley -> Dance -> Cunningham and then names started getting put together.
May 31, 2012 at 11:04PM ESTTim
May 28, 2012 at 9:11AM EST Reply to CommentI really enjoyed the episode, but I'm going to be a little critical here. I think this episode showed us why it's better to skip out on the large battle scenes without a huge budget--and makes me appreciate a big budget box office movie even more. It looked like 100 men storming a castle being held by 50. How many ships did we see, 25? Again, I enjoyed it and was able to accept it as great tv, but still, it was a little bit of a stretch watching Stanis be the first up the ladder.
jimmer98 Thats the kind of leader Stannis is, first to land, first to the wall, first up the ladder. He`s a great leader who leads by example, unlike Joffery.
May 28, 2012 at 9:40AM ESTgreatplans I have to agree with this. It was epic....for television. But I've been to the movies so I've seen actual epic battles portrayed epically. I'm not saying I was disappointed because I didn't have great expectations. The fact that so many people seem to be so blown away by a green explosion says a lot about the mindset of the average fan. (Mmmmmm explosions...)
May 28, 2012 at 10:24AM ESTAs always, the best parts of this show and this episode are the interactions between great characters.
Pod I agree, the battle were the weakest part of Rome (the HBO series) as well. We've been spoiled by Lord of the Rings and the Total War games.
May 28, 2012 at 10:39AM ESTjoel Ha, well I think all of you need to remember that this is a TV show. Compare it to anything else that's been on TV and only HBO's BoB and The Pacific have anything remotely close to this scale. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, it would be interesting to hear how this production compares to those, but if you're comparing this to feature films then you're doing it wrong. A typical 2+ hour feature film will likely have a bigger budget than an entire season of this series. Paying for 10 hours versus 2+ is a huge different.
May 28, 2012 at 12:23PM ESTbbq_hax0r Agreed Tim, I noticed that too. It seemed like the battle was 'too small', but I'm nitpicking. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
May 28, 2012 at 1:20PM ESTAnd Stannis. God was I pulling for him. First into the boats. Stands up in the front with his sword. First up the ladder. Thats a leader right there. He may a prick, but he knows how to lead.
George The budget of the Lord of the Rings movies was around $100 million. The budget for an episode of GoT is around $5 million. One can't be expected to produce the same effects at 1/20th of the cost.
May 28, 2012 at 1:20PM ESTjoel The budget of LOTR was originally $285 million, but that was over 10 years ago and that doesn't include the reshoots that preceeded the 2nd and 3rd installments. By contrast, Ridley Scott's recent "Robin Hood" production, which features some large-scale battles but not a lot of fantasy-oriented effects cost about $155 million. That film is probably an accurate comparison to GOT, and as was pointed out in another comment, this entire season of GOT cost about $75 million, with an undisclosed "bump" for this particular episode.
May 28, 2012 at 1:36PM ESTBC I think it's best not to produce a fantasy show if you don't wish to invest the money to do so properly.
May 28, 2012 at 1:48PM ESTPod Oh, I think they did well for what their budget was, don't get me wrong, but that still doesn't make it more visually impressive. Blackwater pretty much had to be on-screen, but I think the series has made the right decision in not showing some of the less important battles, like Robb's.
May 28, 2012 at 3:18PM ESTlouisjab It seemed a little light on the numbers side, but it didn't matter as much as it could have because they kept everything at a character level. As for Stannis, it was totally in character to do so, since he's been showed as more of a warrior than a real king all season.
May 28, 2012 at 7:04PM ESTDanny
May 28, 2012 at 9:13AM EST Reply to CommentEven though I found the battle scenes confusing as opposed to exciting, I wished there had been less of them. The more I watched, the more the budget constraints made me cringe. No catapults, no boiling oil, no beaches soaked in oil, or something less volatile than wildfire, but nonetheless flammable waiting for a flaming arrow. We had to settle for 2-3 volleys of arrows and a whole mess of rocks. I'd've felt better about things if there'd been a catapulted cow, some flung dung, or a killer rabbit. As to my confusion, was it clearly shown beforehand that Stannis' ship was well away from Davos'? He came ashore at the castle, but I guess he had more men come ashore further up the beach. At least I assume that was who came charging down the beach from the north. Before it was revealed that it was Tywin's men coming from the south, I could have sworn I saw Ser Loras Tyrell by the Mud Gate and thought Renly's troops had been reunited and joined in the fray. I fear that the problems I saw in the battle scenes made me lose focus, why else would I be having MP&tHG flashbacks?
Nussy It appears the Tyrells joined with the Lannisters so that they could take revenge on Stanis and his smoke monster birthing witch.
May 28, 2012 at 9:45AM ESTShane and because Margery (who is supposed to be 16 yrs old) told Littlefinger that she wants to be THE Queen not a Queen, so I am sure Littlefinger has some deal working to have her marry Joffrey thus making the Tyrells a ruling family of Westeros as well.
May 28, 2012 at 11:48AM ESTGord You're right - during the scene where the ships were coming in, it wasn't shown directly where Stannis' ship was in comparison to Davos.
May 28, 2012 at 1:32PM ESTIn episode 5, after Stannis comes to collect all of Renly's former forces, he instructs Davos to lead the fleet into Blackwater Bay. That would explain why Davos is in the main force upfront.
louisjab It sure seems a little weird that Tyrion would use every bit of the green fire (forgot the name) to pack the boat and not keep a few bottles to booby trap the beach.
May 28, 2012 at 7:07PM ESTocrasaroon I actually count the wildfire kamakazi boat among Tyrion's smartest tactical decisions. In the episode when he discovers that they're sleeping every night on top of a mystic WMD, he pointedly observes that, in the wrong (or less experienced) hands, the 10% accuracy of the weapon stood an even greater chance of razing King's Landing in the process. That's just too high a price for only the LITERAL decimation of one's enemies.
May 29, 2012 at 12:26AM ESTHowever, sending the boat out to go boom assures maximum destruction to the head of the fleet (i.e. a good deal of leaders and elite forces), removes the risk associated with user error (i.e. no Lancel Lannister-types clumsily dropping a green pot and burning the capitol to the ground) and maintains the spread of destrution to a more limited or managable area (i.e. on the water...since my assumption is that wildfire can't "spread" the way real flames do...it burns where the liquid first fell.)
Booby trapping the beach brings the fire much closer to home and increases the chance of accidental detonation. Worlds without an electrical grid tend to rely on fire for light. One slippery torch and you're booming the wrong group.
Not to mention...I think you lose the element of surprise when you line your beaches with a visible lime green liquid. Any commander worth their salt (aw...sorry, Joffrey) would be sure to lead his troops AWAY from the beach covered in the ultraflammable, inextinguishable, people-melting substance.
JP
May 28, 2012 at 9:20AM EST Reply to CommentThanks to DVR magic, it took me almost two hours to watch this episode. I rewatched scene after scene, especially the explosion of the boat packed with wildfire. That was an astonishingly clever plot, and one I didn't see coming.
I desperately hope Tyrion is not dead, but perhaps surprisingly, I find myself hoping Davos is not, either. I hope we have the ability to explore his character more deeply in the future.
We saw the Lord of Flowers (Renly's boyfriend, I forget his name) enter the throne room with Tywin, so is it safe to assume the Tyrells are now aligned with the Lannisters?
Jamie they definitely are considering Little Finger propositioning both Ser Loras and Tywin. Where does that leave Margaery with Sansa potentially out of the queen picture.
May 28, 2012 at 9:27AM ESTBeastieBoy
May 28, 2012 at 9:28AM EST Reply to CommentMad Men blows the budget in spectacular fashion with the Beatles.
Game of Thrones goes one better by showcasing the greatest battle ever in HBO history!
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