Firewall & Iceberg Podcast, episode 132: 'Game of Thrones' & 'Mad Men'
In the first of a two-podcast week, Dan and Alan also review 'Push Girls'
Given Dan's travels last week, and the amount of stuff he would have to catch up on his DVR upon returning, we weren't sure if we'd be able to record a Firewall & Iceberg Podcast today, or if we'd have to wait until later in the week. But late last night, we figured out a compromise: a two-podcast week!
So today we kept it simple — but very long — by talking briefly about Sundance's "Push Girls" before doing extended segments on the end of "Game of Thrones" season 2 and last night's "Mad Men," and we'll be back later in the week to talk about "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," "True Blood" and more.
The line-up:
"Push Girls" (00:03:05 - 00:10:05)
"Game of Thrones" (00:10:10 - 00:55:45)
"Mad Men" (00:55:50 - 01:31:00)
As always, you can subscribe to The Firewall & Iceberg Podcast over at the iTunes Store, where you can also rate us and comment on us. Or you can always follow our RSS Feed, download the MP3 file or stream it on Dan's blog.
Alan Sepinwall has been reviewing television since the mid-'90s, first for Tony Soprano's hometown paper, The Star-Ledger, and now for HitFix. His new book, "The Revolution Was Televised," about the last 15 years of TV drama, is for sale at Amazon. He can be reached at sepinwall@hitfix.com
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Login or create a HitFix account Login Signupchristy2
June 4, 2012 at 7:09PM EST Reply to CommentDear John, I'm a longggggg time reader, occasional commenter. Will probably not spend much time here anymore. The pop-up advertising how to download to my iPad (which I do not have) obscurs the page and does not allow me to close it. My only option is to download the app which I do not need. I only arrived here by scrolling until a sliver of the header for this posting was available. Are you worth the aggravation? Here at the start of the summer season, probably not. And I'll probably forget all about you by the time the fall season comes around. Bubye.
MG Who's John?
June 5, 2012 at 11:58AM ESTa It's a "Dear John" letter.
June 5, 2012 at 4:05PM ESTInstall Adblock Plus in Firefox and you won't see that crap.
Angela
June 4, 2012 at 7:16PM EST Reply to CommentI actually thought that Don was "creative" in the meeting with Dow. He came up with that angle on Napalm, which I thought was brilliant and classic Don.
Pizpot Gargravarr
June 4, 2012 at 8:16PM EST Reply to CommentArya refers to Hot Pie by name in episode 2 though I think I missed it when I first watched it. During their argument with the blond kid she says "Hot Pie, tell Gendry what makes a fight into a battle", other than that I don't remember his name being mentioned.
Craig
June 4, 2012 at 8:19PM EST Reply to CommentAlthough I agree that Lane's financial issues could (should) have been set up more, this episode at least provided a reasonable explanation: Lane owed back taxes on his stock portfolio, which he liquidated when all the partners had to put in $50,000 to keep the firm afloat. He made money off British assets and used the money to fund an American firm, which is why Her Majesty's government wanted to "make an example" of him. This also implicates Don even more in Lane's suicide: Lane would have never had this problem if Don hadn't given the middle finger to American Tobacco in that ego-driven letter.
I think Roger reverting to his old self is totally in character. Remember in season 1 after his heart attack when he tells Don, "I've been living the last twenty years like I was on shore leave. What is THAT about?" How long did that moment of self-awareness last?
Madel While your explanation of Lane's financial issues is correct, your implication of Don is clearly not.
June 5, 2012 at 2:05PM ESTAmerican Tobacco had left the firm, necessitating the cash injection of the partners (hence Lane's liquidation and UK taxes) well before Don wrote the letter. Don's letter actually helped SCDP keep many of the accounts that the firm was losing in the wake of A.T. leaving (although perhaps keeping large companies from joining later).
In fact, knowing the precise reason for Lane's troubles should make everyone realize how much Don is NOT at fault for Lane's suicide.
1) Roger is more at fault than Don for the predicament of the company at that point. Not only did he not pay closer attention to A.T. to possibly prevent the firm from losing the account, but worse yet - he didn't report the imminent loss to SCDP immediately so that they might secure extra capital from the bank (or make other arrangements) before the account loss actually happened.
2) Don paid Pete's portion of the money needed to keep the company afloat at that time - which Lane knew about - and should have tipped him off to the fact that Don might be a reasonable person to ask for a short-term loan needed to pay his taxes.
Lane's suicide stems from Lane's own mistakes - and is in no way derived from either Don's letter or Don's actions. Quite the contrary.
Amrit I think Lane viewed Don's loan to Pete as an investment in the firm because when American Tobacco left Petes accounts accounted for 70% of the business and if Pete had to leave then the firm would be dead for real. Plus Pete has a status in the firm as a rain maker and so the hardship of not having money was minimal at best and Pete is young.
June 6, 2012 at 8:05PM ESTLane is older than Don and probably the same age as Roger, he is not seen as Pete as essential to the firm and he had his pride. Asking Don for money was just not on the cards and that was forshadowed when he refused to allow Don pay for the prostitute back in 4.04. So yeah Lane could have gone to Don but his own pride and self respect or lack of probably stopped him in the end.
Andrew
June 4, 2012 at 8:39PM EST Reply to CommentAlan, it's worth nothing that Sansa believes in that moment that her choice is between the Hound and Stannis, because she's getting her information from Cersei who is convinced the Lannisters are going to lose. Ned considered Stannis to be a just man, so if she can avoid the nasty stuff during the sack, that's not an awful situation for her.
Choice between Joffrey and the Hound is an obvious one, as you say. Choice between her father's impression of Stannis and the Hound? Possibly obvious in the other direction.
Kim Yeah this is key. Just mentioned this in the other post by Dan.
June 5, 2012 at 3:37AM ESTKim Oh and I wouldn't let Dan disabuse you of your opinion of Brienne's prowess Alan. She IS that good.
June 5, 2012 at 3:41AM ESTGreg
June 4, 2012 at 9:49PM EST Reply to CommentThe worst part about Jon and Dany is that that was a something that could easily be fixed. All Benioff and Weiss had to do is cut some of their screen time. None of the other subplots would be affected if Dany and Jon had the same amount of time as Jamie had this season.
DB Cooper
June 4, 2012 at 11:39PM EST Reply to CommentRegarding "A Fist Full of Dollars": Draper, to keep his creative juices sharp, sees every movie. Sometime in S1 or S2, he was asked if he seen... something (Bye Bye Birdie?), and he says, "I see everything."
June 5, 2012 at 12:27AM EST Reply to CommentHappy to see such a long time devoted to GOT.
Hoping we gets some sports (mets no no or stanley cup) and game show (rip richard dawson) talk on the second pod.
ed w
June 5, 2012 at 6:37AM EST Reply to CommentIn the last few episodes of Mad Men they have taken two of the most sensible, down to earth characters and stretched events as much as possible in order to justify doing things it is highly unlikely they'd ever do no matter what the motivation.
So when you speculate on what is in store in the finale I can only imagine something extreme will happen to Ken Cosgrove too.
erika_herzog
June 5, 2012 at 7:09AM EST Reply to Commentlistening to this podcast you guys made me laugh so hard -- your befuddlement at the Sally period thing was hilarious. of course folks are going to talk about it!
it was graphic and messy and a twisted thing to show on tv. Matthew Weiner seems to have a gift for lifting the cover / making visible the mundane / arcane on so much stuff -- especially this season -- that it just makes my brain hum with happiness. not this specific image necessarily, but that experience of getting your period for the first time, those experiences of looking around at the adults around you and trying to find your place, both pushing and pulling and searching.
i could go on but really, thanks. great podcast.
p.s i watched PUSH GIRLS too and wished it was better as well. sads.
rowan729 Gotta say I agree with Alan and Dan here, I don't get people's objections to that image. I can think of lots of other things I've seen on drama shows that are way more disturbing than blood on Sally's underwear, blood which is in no way related to violence. I'm curious if you've seen Breaking Bad at all and what your thoughts are on season 4's first episode Box Cutter. That's what comes to mind when I think graphic and messy and twisted on tv, but maybe that's just me. As a woman, I don't find Sally's menstrual blood disturbing at all, but it doesn't surprise me a bit that folks all over the interwebs are upset over it.
June 5, 2012 at 3:06PM ESTCraig People getting sliced by box cutters and maimed in all sorts of violent ways is something we're totally desensitized to, as a post-Tarantino culture. On the other hand, the sexuality of children is probably the biggest taboo in western culture, and anything dealing with that makes people squeamish. For me, the blood itself wasn't necessarily disturbing, but the entire scene: I really didn't need to be watching a 12-year-old in a bathroom stall pulling down her panties. Good TV puts you in the room with the characters, and that is NOT a place I felt comfortable being. Which isn't to say I had a problem with the scene, because art SHOULD make you uncomfortable sometimes. But I do get why it bothered people.
June 5, 2012 at 7:38PM ESTGunde
June 5, 2012 at 8:10AM EST Reply to CommentI could not disagree more about GoT. I thought it was an amazing episode. Just as good as Blackwater if not a bit better. So many great character moments and at least 5 storylines moving forward.
Jojo Completely agree. The last episode was as good or even better than Blackwater !
June 7, 2012 at 1:34AM ESTEric
June 5, 2012 at 10:48AM EST Reply to CommentLove the podcast as usual. However, I do have to say that I'm surprised you (Alan) were inattentive enough to miss the thing with The Hound and fire. Yes, it's true that his backstory was told a long time & many episodes ago, and hasn't been touched on since. However: 1) He has a huge, very visible burn scar covering half of his head. (They seemed to make it even more visible in this episode than usual.) And 2) they actually weren't completely subtle in "Blackwater" about making his fear explicit. The first instance of it seems to have been missed by you - on the wall of King's Landing, someone swings a torch near The Hound's head, complete with a loud Foley effect. He flinches noticeably, in close-up, and glares at the man. Later they show him frozen in horror as a flaming man runs toward him - Bronn fortuitously shoots him down. Then they show him staring out at the flames aghast before he leaves the battle and tells Joffrey something that we all wish more people would tell Joffrey - and in the process, mentions that one reason he's leaving is that the city is on fire.
Really, I think this was as clear as possible without beating you over the head with it. Other elements of the episode were indeed underplayed, but this was not one.
Eric Oh, AND he threatens the archer that if one flaming arrow comes near him, he'll gut the man. By my count, that's four reasonably explicit references to his fear of fire in that one episode.
June 5, 2012 at 10:50AM ESTMadMeme
June 5, 2012 at 3:57PM EST Reply to Comment@Alan & Dan:
The problem Joan has in her chat with Lane is not that he mentions Joan in a bikini - the problem is HOW he mentions her in a bikini: in a specifically rude and derisive manner. He's intentionally nasty to her - taking his anger at Don (and the company) out on her. Go back and watch his facial expression as he says the following:
Joan: "Can you imagine me locked in a hotel room with a baby and my mother?"
Lane: "I suppose you'd rather I imagine you bouncing in the sand in some obscene bikini."
Chesterfield
June 8, 2012 at 2:49AM EST Reply to CommentI'll shamefully admit that when one of you were talking about GoT: Blackwater and said "...an episode of this magnitude..." (pause), I said "Pop! Pop!" out loud. God, I already miss Community (and I'll continue to miss it when it comes back sans Dan Harmon). Anyway, good show as usual, guys, but I do think you're a bit harsh on the GoT finale. Even though most of your criticisms are valid, I never found that it detracted very much from the overall experience, and I think they are things given additional weight by the simple fact that they have to be brought up and discussed in a situation like this. I.e. I think it sounds worse when you talk about it than it really was.
pamelajaye
June 9, 2012 at 11:08AM EST Reply to CommentJust listening now. Whether Betty's reaction to being needed and hugged was good or malicious, I've always felt that she wasn't so much a neurotic mother as she was narcisisstic. I can relate to insecure, but that's not what I see. (Though, yes, I guess I did see it with Don, I don't see it with the kids. Wonder if she hates Gene now that he's less a baby and more an icky boy or if his name mitigates that.)
pamelajaye also, since I forgot that Glenn is the reason Carla got fired (and Betty moved far far away, btw) he's in some way responsible for Don's marriage to Megan, who he wouldn't be with if he hadn't taken her to California to help with the kids Carla couldn't help with, and he wouldn't have seen so much of her being "a good mother" (which was Betty's main purpose in his mind, wasn't it?) to his kids. It's just convenient he still finds her attractive (maybe they are closer emotionally cause he's not hiding the fact he's Dick Whitman) or cause she's not a spoiled Mainline brat. But I don't see any reason he would have marrierd her if they hadn't gone to LA. They had sex once. He and Faye had a relationship. (yeah, everyone else said this last sesaon, I'm sure)
June 9, 2012 at 11:19AM ESTpamelajaye "When Don sends people away Adam, Lane), they kill themelves."
June 9, 2012 at 11:30AM ESTExcept, neither Freddy Rumsen nor Sal (to our knowledge) did - and in both cases a lot of people expected them to.