Exclusive: 'Veronica Mars' creator Rob Thomas on the wildly successful Kickstarter movie campaign
What comes next for the campaign? How big can the movie get? And whither Piz?
Kristen Bell is in for the "Veronica Mars" movie, and the hope is that as many other regulars will be back with her.
The "Veronica Mars" movie Kickstarter campaign was an instant, runaway success, raising the $2 million minimum to make the movie in under 12 hours, with the total continuing to climb. (It passed $3 million earlier this evening.) But the process to get to this point took much longer for the show's creator, Rob Thomas. He had all but given up on getting a "Veronica" movie made, even cheaply — "Warner Bros. is typically in the business of making big-budget movies," he explains. "'Small' for them is a $30 million movie, and I understand why the 'Veronica Mars' movie didn't fit into that paradigm" — until his friend, Cotton Mather lead singer Robert Harrison, suggested he try Kickstarter.
That was more than a year ago, and Thomas came very very close to convincing Warner Bros. to give him permission to try it at the time, in hopes they would film during Kristen Bell's hiatus after the first season of "House of Lies." But studio executives backed off, preferring to have their attorneys go over the possibilities with a fine-toothed comb to ensure they weren't exposing themselves to legal action by teaming with Kickstarter.
Finally, though, approval came, and then the money started to flow in, and the movie has already been greenlit by Warner Bros. The only questions now are how big the budget will be — keeping in mind that a percentage of the Kickstarter funding will go towards providing the posters, t-shirts, DVDs and other prizes that fans bid on — how many actors will be available to film in between when Bell is recovered from having her baby and when she has to report to work for "House of Lies" season 3, and other matters of scope.
I spoke with Thomas this afternoon about where the project stands now, what value there will be in fans continuing to donate, his response to criticism that fans shouldn't have to be giving money to a big conglomerate like Warner Bros., and more.
How were you feeling Wednesday morning as you were waiting for the campaign to begin? What were your expectations for how successful it might be, and how long it would take to hit the target goal?
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But even at my most wildly optimistic, I did not think we'd make 2 million in day one. There was no world for that. In my mind, I was thinking, 'Oh, if if we could do 5 million, that would be great,' but I thought even with that total, a good first week would would be a million and a half or 2 million. I was certainly hoping for more than our Kickstarter goal, and optimistic about it. But it still blew my mind, watching that total go up and up yesterday. There was nothing like it. I was on an endorphin high. My attention span was not longer than 4 seconds. Every tweet that was coming at me, every email, every phone call, watching that total go up, it's the most mesmerized I've ever been by a computer screen. And there was a documentary film crew, making a film about the making of this movie and the campaign, in my face for 8 hours yesterday. So on top of that, I was also hyper-self-aware. It was one of the freakier days of my life.
When you started out on this project, the assumption was that Warner Bros. would not kick in any money for production, and that you would have to make it work on whatever you raised from Kickstarter. Has that changed at all, given the success and all the attention the campaign has received?
Rob Thomas: Warner Bros. has not promised us any amount of money. There is a chance where, if we needed something, and there wasn't enough money in the budget, like one more actor deal, they've talked like they're a partner, and (said) 'We'll make sure we'll make a terrific movie.' But there's absolutely no doubt that the more money we make, the bigger and better movie it's going to be. I just don't think they would have let us make a cheap movie. I stop and think that if we had just made $2 million, after we paid for t-shirts and processing, it would have been a $1.4 million movie. That would've been really hard, and a really scaled-down movie. I don't think we're going to be in that position. Warner Bros., they're certainly handling all the other big ticket expensive items, like distribution and promotion. So they're pulling their share.
It sounds like you've made the calculations about how much it will cost to provide people with the t-shirts, the DVDs, etc., that they've paid for with their Kickstarter bids. I've seen some blog posts suggesting that that's often a very big challenge for a large-scale, successful Kickstarter campaign. How on top of this are you guys? How prepared are you to make sure everyone gets what they paid for?
Rob Thomas: This is one of the ways that we are working hand-in-hand with Warner Bros. They are tracking costs on this, they're dealing with fulfillment centers. I'm so happy that I am not having to track the profit margin of t-shirts. I get these things on reports: "At this price point, this is what we'll spend on fulfillment, and this is how much we'll actually make." But fortunately, there are Warner Bros. project people who are helping us out with that.
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Login or create a HitFix account Login SignupCol Bat Guano
March 15, 2013 at 12:53AM EST Reply to CommentNot a single question about Party Down. For shame.
CinemaPsycho This isn't about Party Down. Not sure if you realized that.
March 15, 2013 at 1:52AM ESTCol Bat Guano Rob Thomas made both. Not sure if you realized that.
March 15, 2013 at 2:26AM ESTSCT Well I think it's clear that Party Down will be catering the 10 year reunion. Ron Donald has a thing for them.
March 15, 2013 at 9:20AM ESTRyan Hansen gets to stretch his acting chops playing two roles. Adam Scott will also play two roles. First as Henry but also as the lecherous Mr. Rooks (he and Madison Sinclair hit it off three years ago and are now married).
SCT Well I think it's clear that Party Down will be catering the 10 year reunion. Ron Donald has a thing for them.
March 15, 2013 at 9:20AM ESTRyan Hansen gets to stretch his acting chops playing two roles. Adam Scott will also play two roles. First as Henry but also as the lecherous Mr. Rooks (he and Madison Sinclair hit it off three years ago and are now married).
Col Bat Guano I would watch the hell out of a Veronica Mars reunion catered by Party Down.
March 15, 2013 at 1:09PM ESTIan Whitcombe
March 15, 2013 at 1:05AM EST Reply to CommentI wonder how much of the movie will be confined to the reunion setting? Not a bad thing for three reasons:
1) It could allow an Altman-esque approach in juggling all the returning characters.
2) "A Very Echoll's Christmas" is similarly claustrophobic at the end, and one of the shows best episodes.
3) Thomas may be deliberately using the storytelling structure he and his fellow writers developed on Party Down.
ovnio
March 15, 2013 at 1:11AM EST Reply to CommentExcellent interview, Alan. This is must-read material for all the naysayers and people freaking out all around.
If they figure out a way to do international rewards, I'd imagine they'd easily break five million.
Amy I agree with this. I donated even though I'm not going to get the rewards (I'm in Canada), but I'd up my donation if I could actually get some stuff.
March 15, 2013 at 1:43AM ESTI love the reunion idea. Two of my very favorite episodes -- An Echolls Family Christmas and A Trip to the Dentist -- used a party setting to great effect. See also: every episode of Party Down.
XK Agreed, re: international donors. Honestly, I'm not sure what the issue is; most kickstarters do handle physical rewards for international donors... by adding tiers with slightly higher price-points to take into account the increased shipping.
March 15, 2013 at 1:52AM ESTSo, they could basically add new reward tiers that mirror the existing physical reward tiers, (not counting the screenings, etc. where the extra cost would far exceed just a difference in shipping), up the cost by ~$10 for each tier, and clearly mark that those tiers are for international peeps due to shipping costs.
Seems straight-forward enough, and, again, that's what most kickstarters seem to do.
XK Oh, and I think if they did so, they would very easily add another 1M, just via new international donors and existing donors upping their amounts. The comments section is certainly full of backers who are international and say they would happily increase their kickstarter amounts if they could get the physical rewards.
March 15, 2013 at 1:54AM ESTbrickwalls Rob said in the FAQ that shipping isn't the issue. " We've run into a couple thorny issues. It's not about the shipping cost. If it were that easy, we'd already be doing it." It probably has to do with distribution rights and liabilities.
March 15, 2013 at 2:08AM ESTXK Thanks, Brickwalls. I'd love to hear what the issue actually is. Again, most kickstarters don't seem to have any issues on this front.
March 15, 2013 at 3:23AM ESTThen again, it sounds like it took them many months just to get all the legalese figured out to begin the kickstarter in the first place, so I guess there is a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes.
LULU I would guess there might be issues in countries (like France) where the movie theater lobby forces to have a relatively long delay between theatrical release and any other DVD / VOD / ... release.
March 15, 2013 at 6:23AM ESTMeaning in that case that the movie might be difficult to release in theaters if it was released as a VOD product beforehand (or too soon after).
Beren I remember here in Australia they had a lot of trouble releasing the season 1-3 dvds. We didn't get them until a couple of years ago (well after the show ended). Not sure the reason, but perhaps they are having similar issues now.
March 15, 2013 at 7:04AM ESTLoopyChew My guess is that the issues stem from international releases. The Digital release is being done via Flixster (according to the KS page), which is a US-only service. They'd have to find international equivalents for that when it comes to the film. As for things like shirts, maybe their fulfillment partners don't have international distro agreements or something (kinda weird when you consider it's WB, but still).
March 15, 2013 at 8:12AM ESTsauloccl In Brazil, Warner still needs to release the second and third series on DVD.
March 15, 2013 at 8:26AM ESTThey should do an airport scene where non-Americans could appear. Don't know how much it would cost them, but I believe a lot of international fans would donate a lot of money to be part of such a special project. It would be a nice reward, so they just don't need to receive a copy of the movie.
brickwalls My guess is that Rob Thomas and Warner Brothers underestimated the number of international fans. When they made the agreement to launch the project, they only focused distributing the movie downloads and DVD/Blue Rays in the US.
March 15, 2013 at 4:36PM ESTIn order to make this work for international fans, the WB has to find partners to offer movie downloads in each country and they have to make DVDs encoded for different regions. All that takes time and money. I'm guessing there is a chance that the WB might decide not to pursue international options if they think that the cost outweighs the potential profits.
Amy As promised, I've doubled my donation now that Canadians can get the physical rewards! I hope they are able to offer them to other countries as well.
March 16, 2013 at 9:34PM ESTTiffany
March 15, 2013 at 1:43AM EST Reply to CommentPushing Daisies was my first thought when I heard this was happening. Please let it happen!!
Dezbot That and CHUCK :-)
March 15, 2013 at 12:50PM ESTjoel I can't believe a typical ep of Veronica Mars cost $1.8 mil to shoot. If that's typical relative to the production, an ep of Pushing Daisies must have been twice that. PD had insanely high production values for a TV series. Does anyone know the price tag?
March 15, 2013 at 1:02PM ESTMC Joel: Veronica Mars may have cost more because they spent a lot of time shooting on location (think of all the outdoors scenes, the school, etc.), whereas I think Pushing Daisies was mostly done on a set?
March 15, 2013 at 6:20PM ESTHowever, this is just a guess and I could be completely wrong.
joel Shooting on location isn't necessarily expensive, depending on how you do it. The X-files and Friday Night Lights are two series that made good use of location shooting on a tight budget, but location shooting in LA would be a lot more expensive.
March 15, 2013 at 6:36PM ESTPushing Daisies had incredibly elaborate sets, props, costumes, and make-up. And virtually every episode required entirely new sets and costumes to accommodate all the episodic storytelling. Granted, the used a lot of CGI and digital matte painting to complete the effects, but again, that isn't cheap.
CinemaPsycho
March 15, 2013 at 1:51AM EST Reply to CommentVERONICA MARS, bitches. Awwww, YEAH.
Almost a decade later, the fans still care. And we just proved ourselves to be the BEST FANS EVER.
Put up or SHUT UP, motherfuckers.
FranklynStreet
March 15, 2013 at 2:33AM EST Reply to CommentFor the last decade, big-budget filmmaking has continued to balloon, while the indie has all but ceased to exist. I feel like the death of the indie started with the success of Pulp Fiction and the exploitation of Sundance; as time went on, indies took over the Academy Awards, but all of this meant that indies began having casts of recognizable actors and $30 million budgets. The low-range had become the mid-range, the high-range had become the mega-high range, and the low-range and truly indie all but ceased to exist.
In a world where literature is able to exist on many different level and find its audience without having to be a best-seller to even exist, I've always thought, and hoped, that eventually things could circle back for films. We're certainly at a point where anyone can make a film with the technology available to the average consumer, and the internet has broken down both the walls of education and distribution. But there's still currently the problem of funding.
While everyone is bemoaning this because they think Warners is abusing Kickstarter, and they're afraid that this may become a wave of the future, the fact remains that Kickstarter won't work unless people give the campaigns their money. I hope there aren't so many rich sheep out there that they'll just blindly give their money to every film project. But if it's a film that people want to see, why shouldn't that film get made at a budget appropriate for the audience? All people have to do if pledge money to a Kickstarter for a project that excites them, and vote no with their wallets when something doesn't. End of story.
But I think what's more interesting, once the dust settles, is how this will play out as a solution for the true independent film-maker. I don't think studios will want to waste the time or hassle with this model for films beyond a certain budget. But I think films with a budget targeted and a few million, and even much cheaper, more independent films, could really benefit from the groundwork being laid. This could be an important first step in the continually evolving development model, and a way for the next wave of independent filmmakers to help finance their fledgling projects on a similar (or even smaller) scale.
joel Indies haven't ceased to exist. It's harder to get indies into the mainstream theaters because distribution has changed, but the audiences that used to frequent these films isn't going to mainstream theaters as much these days anyway. It's actually easier to make and distribute indie films via online channels than it ever has been.
March 15, 2013 at 1:13PM ESTIt's true that many of the smaller studios that produced and distributed films in the traditional system have disappeared, and the studios have pulled back on their "art house" production arms. It's also true that the studios aren't making smaller, adult-focused films as much as they used to.
But indie is doing pretty well. It's just not the indie film system we had in the past. The internet and digital film making has changed all of that, and would have changed all of that whether the smaller studios still existed or not.
SecretHandshake
March 15, 2013 at 2:48AM EST Reply to CommentCongratulations to the Veronica Mars team! If you're listening Bryan Fuller, you should definitely make a Pushing Daisies movie, but please don't forget about Wonderfalls! In fact, make Wonderfalls The Movie first, then go for Pushing Daisies (Push Harder). If they won't let you bring the shows back, make movies. Each episode of those 2 series were like short, perfect movies - sad and bittersweet when it came to the last frame, but always leaving the lingering warm glow of satisfaction. It's awesome to have the dvd sets, but man, I was not done with those characters, stories and fantastic places.
Kelley
March 15, 2013 at 3:01AM EST Reply to CommentReally wonderful article. Thank you for being so thorough.
Michaela
March 15, 2013 at 3:35AM EST Reply to CommentI love this concept of letting the fans put money into something they believe in, any amount they're comfortable with, to receive whatever reward they're comfortable with.
What I started thinking about is a bit smaller than crowdfunding new content. I want some older, less popular TV shows (80s-early 2000s) to be released to DVD. Assuming a perceived lack of purchasers was the issue with certain shows (as opposed to content rights), would something kickstarter-esque be a path to get some older, niche-y shows released? Say I put up $40 and if the project funds, the reward is a copy of the DVDs I want...
(I'm still annoyed they never released the final season of Once & Again.)
marc yes, i'd gladly chip in for my RUBICON and TERRIERS DVDs!
March 15, 2013 at 4:02AM ESTtoonsterwu
March 15, 2013 at 4:15AM EST Reply to CommentPushing Daisies would be fun. Always thought that it wasn't the best fit, stylistically, on network television. That said, didn't they give it a nice bow on the end? Off the top, I thought they did.
Still, it's the type of story that they could find a million and one ways to come up with something creative to do, or even "reboot" it.
Heather Really excellent article! I'm so happy for this fan base. I'm sick of people saying that Warner Bros could make the movie, I wonder if any of those people ask any one who
March 15, 2013 at 8:19AM ESTPledged if the regret it. The answer would be a resounding NO! To me this is no different then buying a ticket to see a concert, or a play, or a favorite bands album, I'm getting something I want for my money! Thank you Rob and all for this chance to see our beloved characters live again!
Ashley As I recall, Pushing Daisies literally ended on a cliffhanger, with Kristin Chenowith's character hanging off of a cliff. They didn't finish their whole season because the writers' strike interfered, and then they weren't renewed.
March 15, 2013 at 2:37PM ESTRiley "Pushing Daisies literally ended on a cliffhanger, with Kristin Chenowith's character hanging off of a cliff."
March 17, 2013 at 12:15PM ESTNo, this was episode 10 of season 2, there were a few more episodes after. The actual finalé was a voice-over which Fuller managed to get financed. It gave a small amount of closure to one storyline, but left everything else hanging... like the mystery of Ned's father, the watches, what is Ned's surname, how will he and Chuck find happiness when they can't touch, Emerson and his daughter... all of these were unresolved.
VM superfan
March 15, 2013 at 9:10AM EST Reply to CommentSince the fans are paying for a large chunk of this movie, why not send out a survey and ask them what they want? I personally would like to see Veronica Mars as a young FBI agent...who also goes to her class reunion!
Valeria
March 15, 2013 at 9:31AM EST Reply to CommentNo Piz and No Parker! Please. No one liked them. Just give us LoVe.
LERETC I liked Piz, he was alright.
March 15, 2013 at 5:49PM ESTJohn Look, as long as Jason Dohering, Tina Majorino, and Enrico Colantoni are in this thing, Rob Thomas can do whatever the heck he wants.
March 15, 2013 at 6:29PM ESTwhatsername "No one liked them." I'm sorry but 1 person doesn't equate to no one. Get over yourself.
April 5, 2013 at 12:34PM ESTI loved Piz so I really hope he's in the movie and still with Veronica. I don't care if Parker is in the movie or not.
tigger500
March 15, 2013 at 10:30AM EST Reply to CommentProbably unlikely, but I'd like to see Jackie.
JOE Vinnie should probably show up too, if for nothing else than the possible Ben Stiller blank check.
March 15, 2013 at 5:28PM ESTProbably Not as Funny as I think I am
March 15, 2013 at 10:32AM EST Reply to CommentJason Dohring made another Kickstarter movie, "Searching for Sonny". http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/SearchingForSonny/searching-for-sonny-an-andrew-disney-original (Not a great movie, but I'm sure that the fan support for that particular actor—who had rabid fans—did not go unnoticed.
And KBell's pregnancy—you gotta wonder how that went down. (Sorry, this is prurient speculation.) "Hey, Kristen, looks like we're not going to be able to launch the Kickstarter until the 2013 hiatus." "Dax, honey, let's get cracking. This baby's gotta pop by May!" Then there's a phone call to 'House of Lies'. "Dudes, get ready fire up the CGI machine for my sex scenes, and get those granny panties, stat!"
I'm pretty psyched for the movie. If I'd been at a computer when the NYC premiere rewards were added, I might have gone for it, but instead I opted for the $35 sweet spot. However, I really wish they wouldn't waste budget on Piz and Parker. If this was a $30 million movie, sure, I could live with it, but why polarize the fan base?
Mark
March 15, 2013 at 10:34AM EST Reply to CommentThere needs to be a Sheriff Lamb appearance, whether in flashback or a scene from a VHS tape in the 10-year reunion time capsule.
hemo_jr
March 15, 2013 at 12:35PM EST Reply to CommentMovie studios have the worst reputation in the world for their shady accounting practices. I am glad that Warner Bros seems to actually want to develop this funding model. Otherwise, they would be milking this particular instance for all it's worth.
Still, who gets credited for the investment equity of all the fans' pledges? When I pledged, I was thinking it was Rob Thomas. But the money goes into a Warner Bros account and they handle the distribution of rewards. So my guess they are considering it their money and their investment equity, not Rob's. And this kinda pisses me off. I have no love for the big studios who push everyone around and do their best to stack the deck in their favor, no matter whose rights they step on.
joel Warner Bros probably outright owns the rights to the entire Veronica Mars IP, hence they would own this process too. That's just the way it is.
March 15, 2013 at 1:19PM ESTeirenical I wonder if this will have a greater impact on how writers like Rob Thomas negotiate for their IP. Will they negotiate for rights to revert to the writer after a certain period of time off the air?
March 15, 2013 at 4:16PM ESTAshley
March 15, 2013 at 2:40PM EST Reply to CommentAlan, thank you so much for this interview. It's a combination of fanlove for the show, and interesting speculation about a new business model. I personally cannot wait for the tshirt and digital copy of the movie that my $25 buys me, and I will absolutely go see it in the theater. I'm also hoping they film in Oceanside (the stand-in for Neptune in the series,) because that's where I live!
pauline
March 15, 2013 at 3:07PM EST Reply to CommentLet's go for 5 millions people, let's do it for a great movie (and i would not mind Sheriff Lamb on flashbacks..he is dead i know..Rob !)
pauline
March 15, 2013 at 3:09PM EST Reply to CommentLet's go for 5 millions people, let's do it for a great movie ! (and i would not mind Sheriff Lamb on flashbacks..i know he is dead..but a little appearance would be cool Rob) !!
erika_herzog
March 15, 2013 at 10:29PM EST Reply to Commentcan someone explain to me how it costs $600,000 to do t-shirts and DVDs. i understand it is for a lot of people but honestly this amount seems really crazy high. get some fans together for watching parties and have them process all the merch, via crowd-sourcing. this seems insane.
Eric It's not too hard to do the math. I don't have the numbers from when they hit 2 million exactly, but we can look at the Kickstarter page today:
March 16, 2013 at 9:26AM EST- roughly 20000 backers get a t-shirt
- 12231 get the t-shirt and DVD
- 1031 get the t-shirt, DVD and poster
- 4502 get the t-shirt, poster, and a Blu-Ray/DVD combo pack
- 732 get the above plus all three seasons of the show on DVD
- 2214 get the above stuff with signatures, minus the show DVDs
- 485 get the above stuff with signatures and the show DVDs
- roughly 900 get all the above stuff except the show DVDs and then the more extravagant rewards like personalized voicemails, etc.
I excluded or consolidated levels where people only get digital rewards.
So that's about:
56000 t-shirts
13260 DVDs
8825 DVD/Blu-Ray combo packs
1200 sets of show DVDs
...being shipped to 56320 people. If your average shipping cost per package is $3.00 you've already spent $170,000 without manufacturing a single thing or paying someone to pack it. And that's probably a low estimate even using media mail and bulk shipping rates; it costs nearly that much to ship one DVD, let alone a DVD and t-shirt and whatever else. The manufacturing costs on all these items are obviously a big question mark, but estimating on the very low end at something like 50 cents per DVD, 2.00 per shirt, 2.00 per combo pack, and 4.00 for the show DVDs, you just spent another 140,000. You're now over 400,000 without yet spending a penny to pay the small army of people it will take to ship all this stuff as well as handling a pretty massive digital fulfillment program, not to mention the well-compensated folks who do the DVD and Blu-Ray transfers, program the menus, etc.
Eric Also, I seriously doubt they're going to crowd-source their distribution to approx. 40000 paying customers. If you want to see a Kickstarter campaign give all subsequent campaigns a bad reputation, that's probably a good way to get started.
March 16, 2013 at 9:29AM EST
thank you for crunching these numbers for my pea brain.
March 16, 2013 at 11:17AM ESTi think this is the hidden cost of Kickstarter. i think they should have reconsidered the prizes, and made them digital (i.e., PDFs of scripts, streamed or emailed videos) to reduce these costs. these layouts reduce margin too much, are a bad idea.
i am also suspecting that if a company like Warner Bros. is involved -- histories of wonky bookkeeping -- the fulfillment arm is going to be very costly.
i buy merch from bands all the time (call me a chump but i still buy physical product and merch to support music i love) and some are shipping the stuff themselves. some use distribution channels and the costs get CRAZY high. to the point of equalling the cost of the merch.
i am skeptical of all of this in a low budget film model. i understand from what you figured out the numbers are staggering but i still think it could be done cheap and easy.
i don't know i would like to see the money up on the screen, if the budget is going to be this low.
erika
Moshi
March 16, 2013 at 3:46AM EST Reply to CommentNOOOOO!!!!!!! No Piz and no Parker!!!!!!!!
Just the old gang!!!!!!
vc
March 16, 2013 at 4:05AM EST Reply to CommentGreat interview! I've enjoyed the level of transparency given in this kickstarter. I just wanted to add that as long as it's good, I don't mind so much the "giving people what they want." As long as it's good, let all the bad things happen. (Honestly, I think Logan dying could make for something really interesting. Kind of bummed that it's not a possibility.)
truth Logan is too much important (and awesome) to die ! Blasphemy VC, come on.
March 16, 2013 at 11:36PM ESTtiffanyv03
March 16, 2013 at 2:22PM EST Reply to CommentRob say, "So all those people worrying that we're aksing for this money to make our movie, we're selling you a product"
asking is spelled incorrectly.
Charlie Pretty sure you meant "Rob says:", not "Rob say."
March 17, 2013 at 2:39AM ESTYou're welcome.
tiffanyv03
March 16, 2013 at 2:31PM EST Reply to Comment" I would be willing to be that it's a tiny fraction of people that are donating to the "Veronica Mars" campaign because they hope their favorite show will also (be Kickstartered)."
pretty sure he meant "I would be willing to bet" not be.
tiffanyv03
March 16, 2013 at 2:37PM EST Reply to Comment"I think Warner Bros., if t works, it works," you mean "if it works, it works"