'Better Call Saul' co-creator: 'We like Saul Goodman, but we love Jimmy McGill.'
I was really pleased with the season finale of "Better Call Saul," and even more pleased with the first season as a whole. (In my review last night, I suggested it had gone a long way towards the "Frasier" end of the spin-off spectrum than the "AfterM*A*S*H" one.)
But I did wonder where exactly the show goes from here, if Jimmy McGill had apparently committed to his Slippin' Jimmy persona, which seems just a hop, step and a jump away from Saul Goodman.
"Saul" co-creator Peter Gould, though, suggests we shouldn't assume too much about Jimmy's decision just yet, and said that as he, Vince Gilligan and the show's other writers work on the 13-episode second season, they're wrestling with a challenge they didn't expect to face: "We like Saul Goodman, but we love Jimmy McGill."
Earlier this afternoon, we spoke about how much of Slippin' Jimmy we should expect next year, how the season evolved from his original plans, why Mike's not ready to meet Gus Fring just yet, and more.
When we spoke a few weeks ago, you said the final two episodes went in a different direction than you had anticipated. How do you mean? What was the original plan here?
I think when we started off season 1, we would have expected that Jimmy McGill would start calling himself Saul Goodman, and would have the crazy office by the end of the first season. What we found was there was a lot more to say about Jimmy McGill than we thought there was. And there's a lot more to say about these other characters around him, especially Chuck and Mike. The characters did things that surprised us. Clearly, what I was talking about was that we didn't know when we started who Chuck really was. One of the things that was truly delightful to me and exciting to me about working on this show is that once we saw Michael McKean playing the scenes in the first few episodes, we saw a guy who was much more imposing than the character we had originally conceived — somebody with a lot more pride. And that opened up a world of conflict.
How does the show change now that he's decided he's going to be Slippin' Jimmy again? How are Chuck and the other HHM characters still involved?
Peter Gould: That's a good question. Has he decided to be? I'm interested that you say that he's decided to be Slippin' Jimmy. He drives off, and he's definitely got a new idea, and it's pleasing him an awful lot. It might be about Slippin' Jimmy. I don't want to be coy, but I don't want to assume anything. We spent a lot of time as we opened up season 2 thinking about what the ending of season 1 meant, and all the implications of that. I will say that Chuck is his brother, and the connection between these two guys has been disrupted. Their relationship has been changed forever. But they are still brothers, and Jimmy says to Marco in the finale, "I have to go back, because he's my brother." These guys are not finished with each other.
If the emotional arc of the first season involves a bad man trying to be good and discovering that the universe has no interest in that, what is Jimmy's arc going forward? And how far away is he from being the Saul Goodman we met on "Breaking Bad"?
Peter Gould: I love the way you put that. I wish we had had that synopsis when we started season 1. It could have saved us a couple of months. In my mind, he's got a ways to go before he's Saul Goodman. The question is, is Saul Goodman just the person that Jimmy McGill was going to be at any moment, and all that was restraining him was Chuck? Or is Jimmy McGill someone else? I have to say, watching Jimmy throughout season 1, I don't think the only reason he's a decent guy is he's got Chuck in his life. Chuck might think so, and Jimmy might even think so. But when I see Jimmy give the money back in episode 7, when I see how he is with his elderly clients, I think this is a guy who has fundamentally got a decent streak. Maybe deciding to be a bad guy, or deciding to be unleashed ethically, maybe that's not going to be as straightforward as it seems.
A bunch of my commenters last night were really fixating on Ernie from the mail room and saying how much he reminded them of Gus.
Can you say at this point when Gus might become part of this series? Or could the show end before Mike begins that relationship?
Peter Gould: Everything's on the table. Obviously, we love the character of Gus, and love Giancarlo Esposito. But think about where Mike is right now. Yes, he killed two police officers in Philadelphia, but that was motivated by revenge, and a sense of vigilante justice over the death of his son. But what crimes has he committed in Albuquerque so far? So far, he facilitated one drug deal armed with a pimento sandwich. He is a long way from being Gus Fring's right hand man and hired gunman. Just like Jimmy's journey has a lot of twists and turns to it, so does Mike's. It's a challenge, because Mike is a character who is fundamentally not materialistic. This is a guy, when we meet him in "Breaking Bad," he lives in a modest house, drives a lousy car, doesn't seem to have a lot of expenses. How much money do you really need to earn in order to take care of one little girl? It's a real challenge for us to think about Mike's journey. Boy, let me tell you, though, we would love to see Gus, and would love to have Giancarlo on the show. The question is, when is Mike going to be ready for that? And why would Gus hire Mike at this point? He doesn't really seem to be the man he will be later.