Aaron Sorkin faces 'The Newsroom' critics at press tour
HBO series creator and the press agree to disagree
Olivia Munn and Jeff Daniels in "The Newsroom."
"We all know that there were critics who did not enjoy the first four episodes" of "The Newsroom," that show's creator Aaron Sorkin, said, "and there were critics that did. Obviously, you'd prefer that the praise be unanimous."
Sorkin was, of course, saying this in front of a roomful of television critics at the TCA press tour. Many fell into one of the categories he described or the other, while others (myself included) seem to enjoy parts of the show and not others.
But because much of the criticism of the series has been so vehement (including some by me), there was a lot of anticipation about how the show's press tour panel — featuring Sorkin, star Jeff Daniels and director Alan Poul — would go. Would it be a trainwreck like the "2 Broke Girls" session in January, where producer Michael Patrick King sparred with critics over the show's depiction of minorities? Would Sorkin come in and charm the pants off of us? Would critics who have objected to (among other things) the show's depiction of its female characters, its clumsy attempts at romantic comedy, and its 20/20 hindsight view of both politics and the newsmedia's coverage of it, be able to convince Sorkin of the error of his ways? Or would it, like so many previous would-be press tour bloodbaths, turn out to be a whole lot of nothing?
Ultimately, it turned out to be a stalemate. The critics repeated their issues with the series, Sorkin stated his defenses of them, and it became clear that many of us simply don't see the show the same way he does.
By far the most frequent complaint about the show involves the way Sorkin writes for the female characters, who seem (to some of us) more emotional, more unstable and less competent than the men.
"I completely respect that opinion, but I 100 percent disagree with it," Sorkin insisted. "I think the female characters on the show are every bit the equals of the men."
He rattled off a list of positive character traits established early on about the women — note that the one for Maggie was that she stayed with the show out of loyalty to Will (so her best trait is that she did a good thing for the main male character) — and argued that if he sets it up early on that these are good people who are good at their jobs, "you can have them slip on as many banana peels as you want."
I noted that, with Mackenzie, she had been introduced as incredibly competent, and since then had been slipping on banana peels left and right, always screwing up and always having to apologize to Will for her screw-ups.
"I disagree that all she does is apologize to Will," Sorkin said. "I think Jeff would disagree, too."
As an example of an episode that doesn't involve her apologizing to Will, he cited the series' fourth episode. I countered that Mackenzie does, in fact, apologize to Will in the episode's climactic scene, and Sorkin pivoted his argument.
"She's talking about cheating on Will," he said, "not 'I'm sorry I did something bad in the newsroom.' She's talking about something that's worth apologizing for... That's not slipping on a banana peel. That's something more serious than that."
Another critic brought up the lack of symmetry in the show's portrayal of the male and female characters, and how the mistakes the men make tend to be done out of integrity, whereas the women make mistakes because they're flightier, or more shallow, or just plain not as smart as the men. Again, Sorkin disagreed.
"We present Will's mission to civilize as something," he said in response to her example, "that people roll their eyes at, and that always blows up in his face. Hubris on this show is always punished."
When another critic asked about the decision to use real-life events from the recent past, Sorkin said, "I'll tell you one reason I did not do it. I did not do it so I could leverage hindsight into making our characters smarter at stuff. I know from time to time it seemed that way, (but) it's actually not what happens." He insisted that whenever his characters get something right that some reporters in real life screwed up, "there's never a time when someone else didn't do it right, too."
Sorkin unsurprisingly dominated the discussion (as he does whether his shows are critically-beloved or not), and Daniels at one point even began an answer by saying, "One of the things I like about Aaron's writing, and then I'll shut up..." But eventually questions about the response to the show were turned towards him.
"I completely get why you do what you do," Daniels told the room. "God bless you. But you don't do it for me, and you never have. It took me a long time as an actor to stop reading you." When he was finally done speaking, he turned to Sorkin and Poul and asked, "Did I just offend all of them?"
(And to that, I'd say he only offended any critic who for some reason is under the impression their primary mission is to provide creative notes for the actors, writers, executives, etc. The only smart way to approach this job is to give an honest reaction to the work to your audience: to say, "I watched this, and this is what I thought, and why." Anything beyond that is the same kind of hubris for which characters on "The Newsroom" are punished.)
Poul also briefly got to talk, particularly in response to a question about what about the real TV news business needs fixing, noting that the media in the 21st century too often races to be first rather than to be right. And in the middle of the session, Sorkin interrupted the traditional Q&A to respond to a story that he insisted was an example of the mistakes made in that race.
"A couple of weeks ago, an unsourced and untrue story appeared on the Internet that then got repeated all over the place," he said. "The writing staff was not fired, okay?" He added that while every show makes creative changes between seasons, and that there were "staffing changes," but others were retained, and two of his writers assistants had been promoted to full-time writing jobs.
(Of course, being a "writer" on an Aaron Sorkin show is different from being a writer on, say, "Breaking Bad." Sorkin views the writers as researchers, and he either writes the scripts entirely on his own, or on occasion works with a partner whom he then heavily rewrites.)
Sorkin was asked at one point whether, in hindsight, he would have changed anything about this first season. He noted that in the HBO model, the entire season was completed before the first episode had aired, and that, "even if you're tempted to write a little bit differently to please the people and change someone's mind, you can't do it."
But the upshot of what was a largely polite, if pointed, session suggested that the second season also wouldn't be significantly altered. Sorkin writes how he writes, and he sees the show how he sees it. And enough people agree with his view that HBO gladly ordered that second season.
Alan Sepinwall may be reached at sepinwall@hitfix.com
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Next 72 CommentsJim
August 1, 2012 at 8:36PM EST Reply to CommentI'll be watching. While this show is not the greatest of all time it is a good palate cleanser after the darkness of BB and the crazyness of True Blood on Sunday nights.
John
August 1, 2012 at 8:40PM EST Reply to Comment"Poul also briefly got to talk, particularly in response to a question about what about the real TV news business needs fixing, noting that the media in the 21st century too often races to be first rather than to be right. And in the middle of the session, Sorkin interrupted the traditional Q&A to respond to a story that he insisted was an example of the mistakes made in that race. "
Pretty easy to say when your show depicts a newscast that ALWAYS gets it right, and often gets it first (by a number of months in the BP episode) or a close second (by a few minutes in the Gifford episode). May not have been as antagonistic as the King panel, but I have just as much faith in any course corrections.
TJ People keep complaining that the newscast always gets it right.
August 2, 2012 at 2:42PM ESTYou can't claim that to be true when the second episode of the show was about screwing up with Jan Brewer. That did a bad show. They completely screwed up.
John How did they get it wrong? I do not recall them rushing to get the story first and getting factual information incorrect. Getting the reporting wrong and getting the production wrong are two entirely different animals.
August 2, 2012 at 3:25PM ESTChaesonian
August 1, 2012 at 8:43PM EST Reply to CommentIt seems Sorkin's defense of his show depictions would have been helped out immensely if there was actually a female cast member present as well.
Erika Herzog ha! totally! thanks for saying that.
August 3, 2012 at 11:28PM ESTAndrew Y Would anyone in their right mind bring the Maggie character to represent them? She can't act.
August 4, 2012 at 8:29AM ESTnic919
August 1, 2012 at 8:49PM EST Reply to CommentJeff Daniels is not the problem with The Newsroom. His character, while flawed, is well rounded and so we don't interpret every one of his actions as representative of all men on the show. (Although you could say that Will, Jim and Don are kinda condescending to the women in their lives).
The problem with Sorkin is that he thinks that he can write for women, and he thinks that he is a liberal feminist, when his behaviour to female reporters in real life (Internet Girl) and those he depicts on the show are just as sexist as Don Draper, a non real life person purposefully shown as morally ambiguous. In fact, Don's treatment of Peggy is more progressive and modern than any of the women on the Newsroom.
I notice there were no women on the panel to address these issues, as once again Sorkin felt he could speak on their behalf. (Not that I think they would criticize him because they want a job after all).
Outside of Olivia Munn, who I normally don't like but was decent last week, both Alison Pill and Emily Mortimer are playing characters that would not feel out of place in the 1940s. The irony is that Mad Men, a show set in the pre-feminist revolution 60s, has far more modern and progressive portrayals of women than the Newsroom, which is two years ago. If Sorkin can't grasp that, then he is not as smart as he thinks he is.
Rb I guess reasonable people can disagree, but I've never found Peggy's portrayal on mad men to be particularly progressive. It isn't the opposite of that either, but I don't buy as progressive the woman who acts like a man to succeed in a man's world. You could argue that, in a roundabout way, this ends up reinforcing gender stereotypes.
August 1, 2012 at 9:11PM ESTIn a similar sense, I don't think the women on newsroom having some stereotypically female traits (mckenzie's reaction to the ring last week is an example) means the portrayal of women is sexist or regressive. What am I missing? I see Mac and Maggie as likable, good at their jobs, and with their little character foibles just as all the men... Where is this rampant sexism I am missing?
Mike I think Alan described it pretty well. The men tend to mess up due to their integrity and conviction, while the women tend to mess up due to professional incompetence and being emotional trainwrecks.
August 1, 2012 at 10:13PM ESTAlexander Gilbert I disagree with that generalization. I think that Will and Don and Jim demonstrate far more intrinsic character flaws than MacKenzie or Sloan who are less inherently flawed characters who simply do some dumb things. (Maggie I will grant you is written as pretty....limited) In the end, I would trust Sloan or Mac with a critical decision long before I would trust it to Will, Don, or Jim.
August 1, 2012 at 11:09PM ESTBrian "The problem with Sorkin is that he thinks that he can write for women."
August 3, 2012 at 1:18PM ESTI'm not a huge fan of the women on this show, but Sorkin can certainly write for women. CJ Craig was one of the best female characters in TV history IMO.
"both Alison Pill and Emily Mortimer are playing characters that would not feel out of place in the 1940s."
-Come on. A women as an EP on a nightly news show wouldn't feel out of place in 1940? You have taken your point too far.
Julius
August 1, 2012 at 8:54PM EST Reply to CommentI do not understand why so many critics (you [although you are cutting back -minus this post], AV Club, NPR Monkey See, etc.) write so much, writing the same criticisms mostly to harp on show. Is it simple economics? A Newsroom post gets pageviews so you have to post something?
I also saw this reaction "And to that, I'd say he only offended any critic who for some reason is under the impression their primary mission is to provide creative notes for the actors, writers, executives, etc. The only smart way to approach this job is to give an honest reaction to the work to your audience: to say, "I watched this, and this is what I thought, and why." Anything beyond that is the same kind of hubris for which characters on "The Newsroom" are punished." to Daniels quote from several critics but each you also wrote something similar to the follow pre/post panel:
"Would critics who have objected to (among other things) the show's depiction of .....[list of show faults] ......be able to convince Sorkin of the error of his ways?"
If you or any critic does not write to persuade anyone, including their both the critic's audience and the show creators/actors why would anyone ever expect to change their minds?
CodenameDuchess Are you serious? One, it's the new show on HBO which is basically the top of the food chain as far as critically acclaimed TV goes. Two, it's being penned by a guy with a rock star resume (The Westwing, social network, etc). Three, it stars a movie star who has come down to slum it on TV. If a professional TV critic isn't covering this show (whether they like the show or not)they're not doing their job.
August 1, 2012 at 9:29PM ESTLinda "Is it simple economics? A Newsroom post gets pageviews so you have to post something?"
August 1, 2012 at 9:46PM ESTHi! Well, at Monkey See, I wrote about the trailer once and then I wrote about the show once when it debuted. I haven't written about it since, unless I forgot something. I do talk about it on Twitter, along with lots and lots of other shows.
Julius Hey I got a response from NPR's Linda Holmes (or her impersonator), cool. Anyway, the show does get a considerable amount of commentary and that is interesting to me and I'm not quite sure why it gets so much commentary, especially when it's generally negative. Why continue to make sarcastic/snide/funny swipes at a show and across a variety of platforms any at almost every opportunity (that wasn't aimed at necessarily LInda Holmes)? UnlessI greatly overstating the amount of attention The Newsroom receives?
August 1, 2012 at 10:09PM ESTto CODENAMEDUCHESS
Yes, I am serious.
1. The network may determine why a show gets a lot of attention to start with but it's well into its run (with faults that were pretty much always present in Sorkin's writings) why the sustained talk? AMC is fairly big network given your criteria yet 'Hell On Wheels' didn't get talk like this.
2. Sorkin's great. Okay but how does the past dictate a continuation of unwarranted attention or why does he still merit their attention given their reviews or his work?
3. Daniels is/was a "movie star". I think that's stretching the definition a bit. Also, "slum". TV has had better stories and character work (particularly for actor like Daniels) for about a decade now.
Mike I won't wade too deep into the why Alan covers the show debate, personally I think he does so because Sorkin even when he's not at his best is still prolific and worth talking about... he's one of the most important TV writers in the business.
August 1, 2012 at 10:20PM ESTThe main point I wanted to address was point 3 from Duchess. The term slumming is sort of a term used affectionately by TV fans who feel as though even with the Golden Age of television since 2000 that in my humble opinion has dominated the top tier films since 2000 artistically (with a few exceptions here and there like There Will Be Blood and No Country for Old Men) awards shows (not to mention general perception) still tend to throw awards recognition at movie stars that dare 'lower' themselves to do television. See: Don Cheadle being nominated for an Emmy this year.
John Movie $ > TV $. All award shows are dumb (apart from TCA of course :) ) Charlie Sheen got movie star money for 2.5 men, but that was immense compared 99.9% of everyone else on tv. (Big) Movies pay stars ~10x more than they would get on TV.
August 1, 2012 at 10:37PM ESTCodenameDuchess All - I very much agree that TV can and very often surpasses the quality of movies. That has been pretty evident since the sopranos. However there is still a hierarchy and until Clooney or Damon or Bale etc decide to headline a show it will always be that way.
August 1, 2012 at 11:28PM ESTJulius Todd VanDerWerff wrote something today asking a similar question to mine (regarding the attention). Responses (his and commentators) seems to agree with CODENAMEDUCHESS's first two points. He settled on the fact that it's because it's HBO and critics have to protect HBO from becoming tv. Many of the commenters say it's because it's Sorkin.
August 2, 2012 at 12:22AM ESTBoth reasons are still odd to me but I guess those may be the explanations.
link to Todd's AV Club posting:
http://www.avclub.com/articles/hbo-at-the-tca-press-tour-aaron-sorkin-among-the-m,83283/
Mike I could see the 'because it's HBO' argument more if Alan was still recapping episodes of other HBO shows he doesn't care for like 'Eastbound and Down,' 'Enlightened,' 'True Blood,' etc.
August 2, 2012 at 1:39AM ESTFor instance, if Luck had turned out as poorly as The Newsroom, I can pretty much guarantee Alan would still be writing about it because of David Milch's similar importance to Sorkin in the television medium over the last 2 decades. Similarly, if Treme had turned out poorly, Alan would still presumably be writing about that because of the presence of David Simon.
TC I understand why this show gets the attention it does, but I guess I don't understand why most critics are so vehemently critical of it. Reading some critics comments on Twitter leading up to this session (not necessarily including you Alan), it seemed like they were relishing the opportunity to tell Sorkin how much he's screwing up the show.
August 2, 2012 at 1:52PM ESTI don't know many people that actually think it's on the same level as premier TV shows like Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Wire, Sopranos, etc., so why all of the critical hate and energy? I feel like the Newsroom gets piled on much more in reviews than some generic mediocre drama on CBS. Is it because we all know Sorkin's potential when he does it right and people are disappointed in the outcome so far? For me, Newsroom is solid enough to get me to keep watching, but it's by no means a great show. I'll watch the show, read Alan's blog post, and that's about all the thinking about the show I do.
Todd's AV club link above has some pretty good insight too, but HBO has plenty of series that aren't at the same level as Wire and Sopranos, so it puzzles me that critics care so much about this particular show.
Mike Because one of the things people hate most is wasted potential. Generic mediocre drama on CBS has no expectations. A television show by the creator of the award winning The West Wing, critical darling Sportsnight, and Academy Award winning screenwriter of Social Network, that is also in a venue that is passionate about fine television, and on a topic that Sorkin is extremely passionate about is going to have massive expectations. Now, that's not a defense of the show, as it is, it's both not good television, and a massive disappointment. If it was just poor television, it wouldn't get this level of derision, you are correct about that.
August 2, 2012 at 3:07PM ESTrcade "I feel like the Newsroom gets piled on much more in reviews than some generic mediocre drama on CBS."
August 4, 2012 at 1:36PM ESTNobody expects anything from a generic CBS drama. People hoped Sorkin plus HBO would equal something brilliant.
RB
August 1, 2012 at 8:58PM EST Reply to CommentThe writing is baroque and the force fed romance story lines don't work, but I can't agree with the other criticisms. Are the females portrayed as any more incompetent or annoying than some of the male counter parts? Don is a jerk who chases ratings with watered down infotainment, not exactly flattering. Neal is good at his job, but was also "that guy" who wants to chat everyone up about his pet conspiracy theory. Jim is great at his job, but socially inept, similar to how Sloan is portrayed. The romance scenes don't work, but the portrayal of females generally isn't problematic for me.
As for them getting everything right or the hindsight criticism, I'd say this: don't watch this show as a totally realistic portrayal of cable news. Watch it as an idealistic show that wants to explore why are cable news is broken and is using fiction to provoke viewers into thinking about the inadequacies of our current state of media. That is what the newsroom is about, an idealization of what news should be, not a jab at current cable news shows or stations.
nic919 Maggie is a twenty something journalist who did not know the country Georgia or what LOL means. And she thought it was okay to always throw out personal attacks on Jim at staff meetings, including using a politically incorrect term for Inuit. Mackenzie did not know how to work email and obsessed over Will's dates in public in front of her work colleagues. These are not "cute" traits but make these women look like idiots who should not have the job they have. Don and Jim may be arrogant or jerks, but they have not been shown to be idiots in the workplace. Sloan thought it was okay to poke a guy in the pecs at work and decided to take over a show last minute because she was going to wear a Gucci outfit. These quirks are not on the same level as a bigfoot obsession, because despite that obsession, no one questioned Neal's ability to do the blog thing he does.
August 1, 2012 at 9:13PM ESTCodenameDuchess The criticism is that the females are incompetent not that they have character flaws. Being a jerk, socially inept or annoying is not the same as being unable to properly operate an email account or being unable to secure an interview because you dated the call screener and are too emotionally flummoxed to do your job.
August 1, 2012 at 9:19PM ESTMike And those inadequacies in the media are presumably:
August 2, 2012 at 1:51AM EST1. Not enough love triangles.
2. Not enough pratfalls.
3. Not enough focusing on relationships while in heated discussions about serious issues.
4. Needing to switch from our system of right-wing partisan hackery to left-wing partisan hackery.
5. Returning to a 1950s era view of women in the workplace as too emotionally unstable and incompetent to do their jobs properly.
6. Oh, and also waiting to report on stories until 2 years after they happened. Gotta let those things percolate I guess.
jack_is_laughing "Watch it as an idealistic show that wants to explore why are cable news is broken and is using fiction to provoke viewers into thinking about the inadequacies of our current state of media."
August 2, 2012 at 7:02PM ESTIt would be interesting if the show actually were about what you claim, but it's not. Unlike the West Wing, which attempted in some semi-realistic way to portray politics and the way in which the system does or doesn't work, Newsroom is only interesting in telling us a problem exists rather than showing what the problem is. Other than cutting back and forth between a catty meeting where we discover that the owner of the network doesn't like the direction of the show, little effort has been made to portray how news is reported, how news becomes "News", or why the industry is in the state it is.
Cause I'd love to see the show you describe, but that's not the show Sorkin is writing.
M
August 1, 2012 at 9:21PM EST Reply to CommentI understand the criticisms of the writing of the women, but ironically the only two characters I find even remotely likable are Sloane and Mackenzie.
Sorkin can talk all he wants about how Will's mission to "civilize" is met with disdain, but it still seems that Sorkin is using Will as a mouthpiece for how he really feels. The fact that everyone on the show responds with contempt only shows that Sorkin is aware how he's perceived in that regard, not that he thinks he's in any way wrong or contemptuous himself.
Mike I too understand, and vehemently agree with, the sexist criticisms the show gets, but I also find Sloan to be the one likable character on the show outside of Charlie (but honestly, growing up on Law and Order, Sam Waterston can do no wrong, so I'm well aware of my biases in that respect).
August 1, 2012 at 10:31PM ESTI think Olivia Munn does really well with the Sorkin dialogue, and it's also nice that she seems to stay above the fray in terms being a needy, emotional wreck like Mac and Maggie, as well as staying away from professional incompetence (her mistake last week came primarily out of personal conviction, which are the types of mistakes only men usually get to make on this show... whereas if it was any woman other than Sloan, she probably would have actually mistranslated the Japanese or something), and of course... "Don't call me girl, sir!"
I never thought I'd say this, but Olivia Munn did an incredible job last week. I was pleasantly surprised.
August 2, 2012 at 3:29AM ESTbearcouch
August 1, 2012 at 9:48PM EST Reply to CommentI've never seen West Wing, but after watching Sorkin on Piers Morgan the guy is weird. I don't think that's a bad thing at all, but it seems to come across in a big way with all his characters on Newsroom. The show seems like less of a serious take of cable news and more of a comedy/parody. Perhaps people want the show to be something it's not or was advertised as something different and now there's no going back? Also what's the deal with all the high school romance bullshit?
Bradley
August 1, 2012 at 9:52PM EST Reply to CommentMy only problem with the show is when the brilliant women suddenly turn daffy ie the relationships, otherwise I love these characters and the show.
nath
August 1, 2012 at 11:28PM EST Reply to Comment"Sorkin was asked at one point whether, in hindsight, he would have changed anything about this first season. He noted that in the HBO model, the entire season was completed before the first episode had aired, and that, "even if you're tempted to write a little bit differently to please the people and change someone's mind, you can't do it.""
It bugs me a little that Sorkin would say this. I mean, he's right, but it seems to suggest he would never "be tempted to write differently" because he never feels like his work has flaws from his point of view.
evolution1085
August 2, 2012 at 12:53AM EST Reply to CommentAny assistant that put a "LOL" on a condolence card AND confuses Georgia the country for Georgia the state probably couldn't get a job working at Chuck E Cheese, let alone become a "producer" for what should be a well oiled machine. At least on Studio 60 most of the cast knew that the big romantic blowups between Harriet and Matt were a foregone conclusion and that things would suffer.... any staffer on that show who wouldn't see the writing on the wall with Jim/Maggie and Mackenzie/Will and isn't sending out their resumes for a different job would be an idiot (sadly this is my only other Sorkin TV reference point, I have to watch sportsnight at some point and the douchey political preaching of the West Wing has made me want to go nowhere near it, although the closer I get away from the Clinton years, the less annoying it might be).
Dwayne Mendoza I can't believe I'm going to say anything that can be construed as a defense of Sorkin, but the "LOL thing is based on a recent event. During the "News Of The World" phone hacking scandal, a series of e-mails between NOTW editor Rebekah Brooks and UK Prime Minister David Cameron were published. Cameron did, in fact, use LOL to mean "Lots of Love." It did happen.
August 2, 2012 at 11:43AM ESTThat said, Cameron 46 years old-- not 14, as Alison Pill's character is. He has a rather important job that probably doesn't leave him much time to catch up on online slang. He didn't put it on a condolence card-- it was just added to almost daily e-mails. And, of course, Brooks either didn't know any better or decided not to object.
This illustrates the fundamental difference between life on Planet Earth, as opposed to Sorkin-Land. Differences in age, sex, career, social class, education, target and situation aren't important. This is why everyone in Sorkin-Land speaks Sorkinese and behaves pretty much interchangeably.
This is the difference between Sorkin and better writers who also create their own worlds, with characters who all speak the same dialect and act according to different rules. Writers like Damon Runyon, Ernest Hemingway, William Faulkner, Raymond Chandler and William Gibson aren't any more naturalistic than Sorkin... but they don't continually violate the rules of their universes when convenient.
On Planet Earth, it's highly unlikely that anyone would be able to get two advanced degrees and also learn fluent Japanese by age 32 (Olivia Munn's age). That typically requires 3-5 years of determined effort.
Is it possible to do sooner? Sure-- if you live there and speak it daily. But if you do that, you're develop an understanding of the culture, you learn the rules and you don't act like an idiot and rude gaijin, as Munn's character does.
This is the wonderful thing about Sorkin-- he manages to infuriate everyone. My college roomie. who works for a Japanese heavy equipment company and has been there for 12 years, hasn't said a word to me about the show-- for all I know he isn't watching it-- and then a rant shows up in my mailbox on Tuesday. A few weeks from now, Sorkin might find it convenient for Munn's character to have put herself through school by working as an escort who specialized in S&M-- and completely understands the ins and outs of being a dominatrix.
Nicely-Nicely Johnson and Miss Adelaide (of GUYS AND DOLLS) are just as stylized and artificial, but their skills and abilities never expanded and morphed as needed. As a result, what you got was more realistic.
Sorkin wasn't an ill-behaved as Michael Patrick King, but he's obviously in as much denial.
Dwayne Mendoza Also-- I can't remember who did this, and I can't find it on Google, but when Russia and George got into a border skirmish in 2008, someone famous was told the news on camera and got the country and the state confused.
August 2, 2012 at 11:56AM ESTAgain, it wasn't a former intern on a TV show-- and it was a first reaction to news they weren't aware of. Say the word "Georgia" and any American will think first of the US state rather than the country halfway around the world.
evolution1085 I can understand using isolated incidents in real life, but to ascribe them to the same person questioning her bonafides while showing her to have the emotional maturity of a tween losing her mind over Justin Bieber doesn't lend itself to this group of being "civilzing America"
August 2, 2012 at 12:42PM ESTDwayne Mendoxa Exactly-- and that behavior also explains another problem with the show.
August 2, 2012 at 1:26PM ESTSorkin's defense of 100% hindsight in coverage is "If somebody somewhere once said this, I get to use this." For example, during Olivia Munn's election-night coverage, she correctly decides that some of the comments made by the Tea Party meant they would not vote to raise the debt limit.
As people pointed out when critics cited this as implausible, it DID happen. Lawrence O'Donnell of MSNBC did an extended speech on it.
Here's the problem. O'Donnell is obsessed with deficits, debts and cutting spending in all forms. He ALSO wants to cut Social Security-- both by using a much less generous cost-of-living adjustment AND by raising the retirement age. He wants to do the same thing with Medicare.
Because O'Donnell is right on one issue, but loony on another (Social Security is funded out of a separate fund-- it has no impact on the budget deficits or the debt)) he makes a very plausible character. He isn't omniscient-- you can both agree and disagree with him.
But if you have Munn channeling O'Donnell about the budget... and also spouting the topics where (to confine myself to MSNBC hosts), Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes, Ed Schultz and Al Sharpton are strong, you've created a composite character who does not exist, even though a real person does hold all those opinions.
Sorkin feels he can balance this by making one character believe in Bigfoot, another now know where penguins live and another know basic geometry, but it doesn't play.
He handled this much better on THE WEST WING. There he had people who were brilliant on some topics and idiots on others "Not "I don't know what the census is" idiots, but proposing solutions that are ill-informed and would have made the problem worse. It's another indication of his decline as a writer.
SS
August 2, 2012 at 3:12AM EST Reply to CommentOn the sexism thing: I guess it's a fine line between people calling a trait "sexist" and not, or perceiving it so. When I watch, I never think Mac or Sloan are lesser professionally because they can't work email or touch a man's pecks. I also don't think Maggie (for her job) is any less qualified than Neil at his. If anything, Will's obsession with "culturing the world" is more explosive, and something as a boss I would be much more apprehensive about. Mac is much more grounded that way. I'm mid-20s, and sometimes I mess up email too. That doesn't mean they're being portrayed as idiots professionally. The real question is, are they less good in professional contexts? Mac spent time in the field (as did Jim, and as his superior), got shot at multiple times. I'd take her over anyone else on the show professionally, regardless of whether she counts on her hands. I think we need to look at the bigger picture, not small things that Sorkin tries to add (effectively or not) for us to connect with their foibles.
On the other hand, there were some elements (like everyone asking Will all the time what to do), which could be explained as either them asking the "man" or them asking the boss. I guess it's easier to explain it as boss in the West Wing because there was a strict heirarchy (CJ --> Toby --> Leo --> Pres), where as here it's more confusing.
Mojo CoCo
August 2, 2012 at 3:26AM EST Reply to CommentI think there's merit in being reminded that we can be better. Sorkin has done a great job of capturing that feeling that makes people want to become a journalist in the first place. An Idealistic world isn't always bad thing.
belinda
August 2, 2012 at 5:11AM EST Reply to CommentThis show's never going to be cancelled, and all the actors I like will be trapped in it for a long time. That sucks.
tag8833
August 2, 2012 at 9:19AM EST Reply to CommentThe newsroom may have any number of faults, but the one that turned me off is the generational warefare aspect. I don't want to be lectured on how great "the greatest" generation was, and how the world was so much better when they ran things, and the modern world is some sort of hellscape by comparison.
The view the Newsroom takes on the past is so much rosier than the actuality of the past, and this cognitive dissonance makes it unwatchable to me. Which is so sad, because I am generally a Sorkin fan.
Fuzzy Dunlop
August 2, 2012 at 9:29AM EST Reply to CommentAlan, were any HBO exec's available? Weirdly, I feel like the criticism belongs more squarely with them. This show isn't HBO, it's just plain old television. Other than a few f-bombs, it feels like a poorly plotted drama on a broadcast network, right down to the opening credits and lack of creativity.
Clearly, Daniels and Sorkin are tone-deaf to critics and their very valid criticism... but the show was greelit for a second season by other folks who should be smart enough to listen. Blame for this fiasco rests with the suits.
sepinwall Yes, HBO execs were there earlier, and I asked them how they felt creatively about the show. The answer is in Fienberg's liveblog of that session:
August 2, 2012 at 10:06AM ESThttp://www.hitfix.com/the-fien-print/press-tour-2012-live-blog-hbo-executive-session-with-richard-plepler-and-michael-lombardo
Mike Suits seem happy with it. And there seems to be a sizable audience for it. So why should they cancel it simply because it doesn't feel like an HBO show?
August 2, 2012 at 11:38AM ESTapearlma
August 2, 2012 at 10:47AM EST Reply to CommentI'd point out that Maggie is consistently the person leading the way to the right take on the story. She's the one picking up the unusual angle before it becomes obvious to everyone else. She might seem flighty, but she's actually the one finding the important stories so far.
And while Will might appear intelligent, most of his personal life actions are downright idiotic. He dated a girl with a gun in NYC - she's committing a felony. He messed with a gossip columnist simply because she called herself a journalist. His problems with the network come primarily from him rewriting his contract to be able to fire Mackenzie for any reason. He went out and bought a diamond ring just to make her feel bad. Yes, he spent $250K to free a journalist, but given his other issues, I get the sense that it wasn't just out of the nobility of his heart, but for other reasons as well. And unlike Mackenzie, he let his personal issues influence the show when he took it out on the gay black republican.
Point being, I think Sorkin is being equal opportunity here.
Where I think the real issue is that Mackenzie has something of a Studio 60 problem - people call her the best in the business, she's obviously running a show that keeps doing hard-hitting news stories right, her people would take bullets for her - Sorkin is telling us that she's brilliant without actually showing us that she is just as Studio 60 told us Matthew Perry's character was incredibly gifted at writing the show within the show. And Sorkin even has gone to the extent of undercutting this by showing us how she didn't even understand economics.
That's the big central issue that I think the show has at the moment and it creates a host of other problems for the show with the appearance of sexism and lack of believability. Sorkin can't just say she's brilliant - he needs to show it.
Steve
August 2, 2012 at 11:17AM EST Reply to Comment"I noted that, with Mackenzie, she had been introduced as incredibly competent, and since then had been slipping on banana peels left and right, always screwing up and always having to apologize to Will for her screw-ups.
"I disagree that all she does is apologize to Will," Sorkin said. "I think Jeff would disagree, too."
As an example of an episode that doesn't involve her apologizing to Will, he cited the series' fourth episode. I countered that Mackenzie does, in fact, apologize to Will in the episode's climactic scene, and Sorkin pivoted his argument."
This is unfair. It is you who pivoted, or more to the point, moved the goalposts. Your initial question clearly asked about Mackenzie apologizing for professional screw-ups (as indicated by your use of the word “competent”). He pointed out an episode where this did not happen and you countered by pointing out she apologized for a personal matter. His response was directly responsive to your initial question.
Jack
August 2, 2012 at 1:06PM EST Reply to CommentI'll probably stop watching it because it's too simplistic. Not the idea of showing the background drama, the deadline pressure, the great ratings versus hard new debate, etc. That part is done so well. It's the veiled attempt to push the lefty point of view I find to be so pathetic. Just once if Sorkin wrote reactions to something stupid Barney Frank, Pelosi, Reid, or any given idiot on the left did and had his oh so cool smart characters rip them to pieces or smash their monitors in disgust then I would probably hang in there. But it looks like its always going to be Palin, Bachman, and other idiots on the right representing the bad thing that must be stood up to by his brilliant know-it-alls.
LN
August 2, 2012 at 1:14PM EST Reply to Commentdid someone ask him why people keep having private conversations in public places? its not a play people, go into another room to discuss your personal or professional issues
Patrick Exactly. There is no concept of keeping things private. Yes, Dev Patel's character gets annoyed and yells a few times that " it isn't soundproof glass", but other than that, the characters don't act normally with work/private boundaries. One ridiculous example was a few weeks ago when Maggie was talking loudly in the middle of the newsroom about "sex in a tub" and the blond responds equally loudly and with no shame. Of course sex conversations happen at work but a professional person would be discrete.
August 2, 2012 at 7:21PM ESTAlso, the overall sexism remains a problem, but I think the show might have turned a corner in quality last week. I don't think it's a coincidence, more Olivia munn = a better show. And it was nice to have some insight into will's character finally, even if it was through the overused HBO method of the psychiatrist's office.
TJ
August 2, 2012 at 2:48PM EST Reply to CommentI notice people are criticize the female characters, and Maggie and Mac are presented as exhibit A.
What about Sloan? I don't think the characterization of her as lesser than the men holds up.
She's certainly not an emotional train wreck. In fact, she's probably the opposite.
TJ
August 2, 2012 at 2:57PM EST Reply to CommentI notice people criticize the female characters constantly on this show. Maggie and Mac are frequently exhibits A and B in support of the women being emotional train wrecks and less competent than the men (I somewhat agree on the emotions, on competence I don't really agree).
However, I don't think anyone can make a case against Sloan.
She's not an emotional train wreck. In fact, she's probably the opposite. She's also very smart. I've never heard her say or act "dumb."
I think the criticism is very broad, unfair, and generalized. Clearly Sloan does not fit into the criticism laid out.
It's almost an inconvenient truth to admit Sloan is a woman and on the show because then you have to acknowledge that the woman criticism isn't as valid.
TJ
August 2, 2012 at 2:58PM EST Reply to CommentWrite a comment...I notice people criticize the female characters constantly on this show. Maggie and Mac are frequently exhibits A and B in support of the women being emotional train wrecks and less competent than the men (I somewhat agree on the emotions, on competence I don't really agree).
However, I don't think anyone can make a case against Sloan.
She's not an emotional train wreck. In fact, she's probably the opposite. She's also very smart. I've never heard her say or act "dumb."
I think the criticism is very broad, unfair, and generalized. Clearly Sloan does not fit into the criticism laid out.
It's almost an inconvenient truth to admit Sloan is a woman and on the show because then you have to acknowledge that the woman criticism isn't as valid.
Patrick I agree, Sloan is the exception. But that doesn't make the criticism of how every other female has been portrayed any less valid. By this logic, if you put one well rounded black character into a minstrel show, would that make it less racist? Clearly, I am exaggerating the degree, but it's basically the same logic
August 2, 2012 at 7:48PM ESTgladly No, I would agree, Sloan gets the best treatment on the show, but even Sloan turned to jelly at the thought of Gucci wardrobe samples being sent to her. She also felt up the new security guard. Both of those instances were jarring because they were so out of character for her, but they're perfectly within the normal range for a Sorkin-created woman in this show.
August 2, 2012 at 8:22PM ESTTJ123
August 2, 2012 at 3:03PM EST Reply to CommentSorry, for the duplicate posts Alan. The site was acting weird on my computer. Can you delete the duplicates?
Donald
August 2, 2012 at 8:19PM EST Reply to CommentI don't know how anybody an watch Sorkins shows, his treatment pd women and not acknowledge that he is gay.
mcm99 Boy, won't Kristin Davis be surprised. You do not have to be gay to write female characters badly.
August 4, 2012 at 4:11PM ESTSS
August 2, 2012 at 11:17PM EST Reply to CommentAnyone else notice how this week's episode recycled a lot of West Wing? Therapist: worse version of Josh and Therapist. Bodyguard: Worse version of CJ and Bodyguard. Will chastising black, gay Republican: Worse version of Josh asking the gay Republican trying to get the president to endorse DOMA, how he can be a Republican.
virginia Definitely noticed! Felt very recycled.
August 6, 2012 at 7:50AM ESTSS
August 2, 2012 at 11:20PM EST Reply to CommentAnyone notice this past episode recycled a lot of West Wing? Therapist scenes recycled a great Josh-Therapist episode. Bodyguard recycled a great CJ-Bodyguard relationship. Even Will chastising the gay Republican echoed Josh wondering why the gay Republican asking the president to approve DOMA was a Republican. And I'm not just saying because the people's titles were the same. The dialogue and relationships seemed familiar and not as good.
SS Sorry for the repost.
August 2, 2012 at 11:21PM ESTRawls
August 3, 2012 at 6:48PM EST Reply to CommentJust saying I don't think its the showrunner or whoever's job to charm the critics. Just answer the question, satisfying or not.
Hwat
August 4, 2012 at 10:31AM EST Reply to CommentI agree with him. Rather than there being something "wrong" with the women, its more a case of the misandry of media today - women must hate men, they can never do anything for them or there is an outraged cry of foul play.
rcade
August 4, 2012 at 1:46PM EST Reply to CommentI don't think Newsroom belittles its female characters. I think it belittles all of them. It's a fun show, but the premise that experienced TV journalists on a top cable newscast would behave like histrionic tweens all the time at work is a bridge too far.
People are constantly melting down in the newsroom and making inappropriate and embarrassing personal remarks in front of lots of people. Things that in real life could be career-enders -- punching a monitor, having the girl you slept with show up on Valentine's Day yelling at everyone as she tracks you down, revealing you cheated on your partner in an email you mass-send the whole company -- happen all the time with only comic consequences.
Unlike West Wing, I just don't have an appreciation for these news people as competent, talented professionals. And that's necessary for a show like this to work.
virginia Exactly! There's a massive disconnect there and it kills the program.
August 6, 2012 at 8:08AM EST- 1
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