Listen: Firewall & Iceberg Podcast No. 136
Dan and Alan talk 'Anger Management,' 'Louie,' 'Episodes' and more
Happy Monday, Boys & Girls.
This week's podcast includes reviews of BBC America's "Twenty Twelve," FX's "Anger Management" and "Louie," plus Showtime's "Weeds" and "Episodes."
You get no points for correctly guessing which show we liked most.
Due to the 4th of July holiday and a paucity of new programming, we won't be podcasting next week, but we'll have a couple jam-packed weeks after that, with Comic-Con and TCA Press Tour and whatnot. So... Whee!
Here's today's breakdown:
"Twenty Twelve" (00:01:20 - 00:07:45)
"Anger Management" (00:07:50 - 00:21:30)
"Louie" (00:22:00 - 00:32:00)
"Weeds" (00:32:00 - 00:40:05)
"Episodes" (00:40:10 - 00:53:00)
Listener Mail - Comedies ready for The Leap (00:53:20 - 01:02:20)
Listener Mail - Wives of Anti-heroes (01:02:25 - 01:12:45)
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (01:12:45 - 01:25:00)
A long-time member of the TCA Board and a longer-time blogger of "American Idol," Dan Fienberg writes about TV, except for when he writes about movies or sometimes writes about the Red Sox. But never music. He would sound stupid talking about music.
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Login or create a HitFix account Login SignupKen Raining
June 25, 2012 at 5:38PM EST Reply to CommentIs it Anger Management? I'm guessing it's Anger Management.
Liz
June 25, 2012 at 6:31PM EST Reply to CommentI feel so dirty defending Charlie Sheen, but I have to point out that, in his prime, he probably was a better athlete than Kevin Costner. I think he was a star pitcher in high school or something, and just watching Major League, you can tell that he's got a decent pitching background.
He looked particularly good next to the other pitcher on the team, played by Chelcie Ross (Conrad Hilton!). I'm pretty sure my grandmother could outpitch him.
dan Costner was allegedly throwing in the low '80s when he was doing "For Love of the Game." I'm skeptical. But still... And his golf swing in "Tin Cup" is aces.
June 25, 2012 at 6:41PM EST#TeamCostner.
-Daniel
Jon
June 25, 2012 at 7:34PM EST Reply to CommentI think there are two separate issues here: the relative moral complicity of the anti-hero's wife and then how well realized that character is.
I think the real issues is the hatred Betty Draper gets which seems to come from a certain segment of the audience refusing to see Don's flaws. Skyler is as you guys well said a problem inherent to the show. But IMO, Carmela spent her entire life lying to herself just as much as Tony was a sociopath.
belinda
June 25, 2012 at 8:18PM EST Reply to Commentwho has a photo of themselves on a desk?
belinda who has a photo of themselves on a desk?
June 25, 2012 at 8:18PM ESTbelinda TV characters do. Usually in older shows.
June 25, 2012 at 8:19PM ESTRe: wives of anti heroes
I find it to be a gender issue too; female characters are usually judged more harshly by viewers in general.
Lisa I agree, if there was a female anit-hero/annoying husband show, the husband would get nowhere near that amount of hate that these wives get. In fact, I bet more people would hate the female lead for not being the perfect wife.
June 25, 2012 at 8:41PM ESTLiz I'm with Lisa on this. Think about how many people utterly loathe Linden on The Killing, yet Holder is equally as screwed up, but it's not the same, because Linden is a bad mother! Same with Mitch and Stan.
June 25, 2012 at 10:32PM ESTNo matter what role they play in the show, it seems like female characters always get far more grief from viewers.
M
June 25, 2012 at 8:45PM EST Reply to CommentRegarding Episodes, I understand that you think the show isn't funny, but...none of the Showtime "comedies" are funny. Why is this one held to a different standard? Also, with regards to the product placement, the show is a co-production with the BBC and airs on free television over there. I assume the BBC are the ones who made that deal, no?
sepinwall We hold it to a different standard because it's trying to be overtly funny and (for us) failing, and it has paper-thin characters we either hate or don't care about. When United States of Tara or Nurse Jackie aren't funny, it's usually because they're aiming for something deeper and darker, which is a place Episodes either can't go or doesn't want to.
June 25, 2012 at 9:43PM ESTsepinwall To add, the proper comparison for Episodes isn't to the Showtime dramedies, but to something like Veep or Curb or It's Always Sunny or even Big Bang Theory — shows that are about the jokes first, last, and always. And it falls far short of all of those, humor-wise.
June 25, 2012 at 9:46PM ESTTausif Khan Dan/Alan
June 25, 2012 at 9:47PM ESTI am interested to know which of your critic friends like Episodes. I am interested in hearing differing opinions on the show. There has to be some value to the show if some of your friends like it. I would like to read some of their work and figure out for myself.
Thanks.
sepinwall Google and/or Metacritic is your friend, Tausif.
June 25, 2012 at 10:27PM ESTdan M - What Alan said. "Jackie" and "Tara" and "C Word" mostly aren't trying to be funny. So I don't hold their failure to achieve an aspiration that isn't theirs against them. "Episodes" is trying DESPERATELY to be funny. It's raising gallons of flop-sweat trying to be funny. Because it's failing, that's the standard I hold it to...
June 26, 2012 at 2:26AM EST-Daniel
MoreTears Episodes comfortably occupies ground between "Good" and "Very Good," and it is closer to the latter than the former. I am not sure there is any point in debating the merits of the show here, because I can spend a few hours talking about why I like it and yet I really don't think I am going to change the mind of anybody who firmly dislikes it, so there isn't much point.
June 26, 2012 at 6:16AM ESTSimilarly, I could respond to each off-the-mark comment made by Dan or Alan and, again, a lot of time would be spent with little reward for the time spent. So I will pick ONE thing to respond to and leave it at that. (And I will note at this point that I have watched the first six out of the seven episodes of season two that have aired in the UK this year.) Dan and Alan commented on the fake reviews of Pucks! and said that real American TV critics would be comparing the US remake of the British show to the original. The first thing to say to that is that Sean and Beverly just chose a sentence or two from each review to quote at each other, as opposed to reading aloud entire reviews of Pucks! For all we know, these fake reviews could have gone on at length about the differences between the ostensibly wonderful Lyman's Boys and the horrid Pucks! The second thing to note is that it is just not true that American critics will automatically have seen a British show that is turned into a US remake. That might be true of a select number of British shows (Prime Suspect comes immediately to mind), but far from all. A case in point: In the most recent US TV season, NBC remade the British sitcom Free Agents (a UK sitcom in which the Hank Azaria role was played by Episodes' very own Stephen Mangan, interestingly enough). I read about a dozen reviews of NBC's Free Agents by different American TV critics, and not one of the reviews showed any indication that the writers had seen the British show, a show that had yet to air in America but that I (far from the most tech-savvy person in the world) found easy enough to "find" and watch on my computer after I read there would be an American remake. The UK's Free Agent's only lasted six episodes so it wouldn't have taken much time for an American critic to watch it all, but I understand those critics have other things they want to do. I think I have made my point about Dan and Alan's comment on the matter.
Buck This series, a darkish workplace comedy, was adapted for U.S. audiences from the British show of the same name—which means, as such adaptations always do, that its tone doesn't begin to approach the acid barbarity of the original.
June 26, 2012 at 9:17AM ESTBuck Sorry, something went wrong with my post. That was an excerpt from literally the first Free Agents review I came across online. It clearly compares the US remake unfavorably to the British original. So what reviews were you looking at, MORETEARS?
June 26, 2012 at 9:21AM ESTsepinwall Also, Moretears: http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/review-nbcs-up-all-night-free-agents-have-talent-but-are-they-funny
June 26, 2012 at 9:33AM ESTMoreTears Bruce: I didn't say I read EVERY US review of Free Agents, and I know I didn't read Alan's. Dan and Alan's comment in the podcast wasn't about how they personally would review US remakes of British shows, but US critics in general. For Free Agents I know read the L.A. Times, TV Guide, USA Today, Newsday, Boston Herald, and Chicago Sun-Times reviews. I usually read ten to 12 reviews for any new show I watch, but the six websites above are ones I am sure I covered when it came to Free Agents. Nine months later I don't recall what other reviews I read, but my recollection is not seeing any comparisons to the British show, and I had HOPED to see such comparisons.
June 26, 2012 at 10:07AM ESTMoreTears Pardon me -- I meant to address the above to "Buck," not "Bruce.":)
June 26, 2012 at 10:09AM ESTBuck Certainly,you could have come across a different set of reviews than I did, but I went on metacritic and the first three I saw all made comparisons to the British original. If I looked a little longer, I'm sure I could have found some that didn't, but based on my what I came across, I'm not inclined to take issue with what Dan and Alan said.
June 26, 2012 at 11:06AM ESTMike
June 25, 2012 at 9:02PM EST Reply to CommentDan, have you seen any of the new Awkward. episodes yet/will you be writing anything about the new season?
dan Mike - I have two episodes. I need to watch them and time hasn't been my friend. At the VERY least, I'll tweet some reactions before the premiere. I REALLY hope I'll have time to do something a bit more substantive.
June 26, 2012 at 2:25AM ESTSIGH. Time.
-Daniel
Erika Herzog looking forward to AWKWARD.'s return as well, so if either you or Alan have a chance to write about it i'd be grateful.
June 26, 2012 at 2:38AM ESTsuch a dearth of yummy tv on right now. -- and just watched an AWKWARD. marathon this weekend so am looking forward to more of the same. weird pairing but i think the only summer TV i can't wait for is LOUIE and AWKWARD. oh yeah, and BORGEN season 2 is back on LinkTV (thankfully).
Haynie
June 25, 2012 at 10:27PM EST Reply to CommentI disagree with Alan's comment about Vic Mackey being so uniquely "the bad guy" at the beginning of "The Shield." Yes, he committed a horrible and jarring act at the end of the pilot. But how is that different from Tony Soprano being a mafia boss, hanging with his goomah, and blowing up Artie's restaurant in the Sopranos pilot?
Where would you put Margaret Schroeder/Thompson in the conversation of these anti-hero wives? Is she different because she's been a more centeral character than the others you've already discussed?
I was trying to come up with a Games of Thrones example, but the closest thing to an anti-hero I could come up with was Season One Tyrion. No wife, only Shae and Bronn (and Shagga, son of Dolf) following him around. Prove yet again that Tyrion Lannister owns.
Liz On the one Boardwalk-related site I go to, Margaret is by far the most loathed character, despite the fact that the show is populated with murderers and various other criminals. But apparently, Margaret not giving the servants a raise that she and Nucky can't afford is pretty much the height of vileness.
June 25, 2012 at 10:37PM ESTdan Haynie - Tony Soprano is a mobster. Vic Mackey is a cop. That's why it's different. Profession-based expectations. We'd seen bad cops before. But what Vic Mackey did and what Vic Mackey did without a clear available White Hat in contrast -- the Ethan Hawke to Denzel Washington in "Training Day" -- was unique.
June 26, 2012 at 2:31AM ESTAnd, for the most part, I think Margaret is awesome and I've always found her to be interestingly pragmatic in a way that's more Carmella Soprano than Skyler White. I'm hoping that this upcoming season is heavy on Margaret. But I've seen a lot of the reactions that Liz is mentioning... And... yeah.
-Daniel
Hatfield I think I find Margaret irritating at times because she's so judgmental and jealous, and seems to forget sometimes just who she's involved with. All of her piety, though clearly a reaction to guilt, was really grating last year.
June 26, 2012 at 1:10PM EST
June 26, 2012 at 3:56PM ESTTom3345
June 25, 2012 at 10:54PM EST Reply to CommentCan't wait to hear what you'll say about "I Robot, You Jane."
John
June 25, 2012 at 11:57PM EST Reply to CommentIMO, part of the problem is the recent spate of high quality TV's dependence on anti-heroes. Audiences hate Carm and Skyler for the same reason they (and some critics) pitch a fit when the negative effects of the drug trade/mob is depicted on those shows and they shout Manipulation! as if storytelling is anything other than that.
Erika Herzog
June 26, 2012 at 2:34AM EST Reply to Comment"it's just so damned good!"
i am completely drooling and kerfluffled that you have both seen five episodes of the new season of LOUIE! it is very difficult to hear you guys being so excited and happy with the show.......!
did you guys hear how Louis CK is going to be in Woody Allen's upcoming (next) movie? though i'm cycnically not surprised that Woody Allen is grabbing onto Louis CK's coattails, i have grave concerns about the whole thing. as you can tell, i'm not a huge Woody Allen fan....
oi
June 26, 2012 at 2:55AM EST Reply to CommentSure The Class/Episodes people are holding a grudge but at least Mark Cuban won't be telling yous tv critics that you presume creatives care about what you write and the truth is they don't.
alf
June 26, 2012 at 5:06AM EST Reply to CommentThe plaid pants in this BtVS episode (particularly at the zoo at the beginning, but there are also some in the school) were numerous. And plaid.
Lem
June 26, 2012 at 9:00AM EST Reply to CommentI'm generally okay with Louie's selective continuity, but I find it a bit irritating with the niece storyline. Why would you set something up to look like an ongoing arc and then just abandon it? I don't mind him forgetting that a character exists after their arc is resolved, but that wasn't what happened in this case, and it was distracting.
Amrit
June 26, 2012 at 11:46AM EST Reply to CommentTo my mind there are two inherrant reasons to why Skyler is a problem on Breaking Bad. The first being that the first season was cut short to 7 episodes and so her character probably was not drawn as well ask it should have been and secondly Aaron Paul's Jesse was supposed to die in the first season and then I assume Skyler would have been more integrated from that point on. But as we can see from seasons 1 to 4 Aaron maybe 3rd in the credits but he is the co lead of the show and as Dan said in the supporting Emmy articles...he is constantly battling it out with Cranston every week to a draw. I mean that scene in one minute in the hospital where Jesse is unloading onto Walt and Walt just sits there responding is two actors going toe to toe and giving flawless raw performances that are awesome and stunning and phenomenal and just pure class. The problem with Anna Gunn's Skyler is that Vince Gilligan realised in season 1 that Aaron is a better actor than her and that his and Cranstons chemistry is off the charts and so he and the writers kinda failed Skyler.
But they are not the only ones too be honest...Betty lost out to the agancy scenes because they were easier for Wiener to make more compelling. Casey on Chuck suffered because Levi and Strahovski's chemistry was so raw and palpable that everything else fell by the wayside.
I think this is just a general problem with shows, when a show finds something that works they mine it as long as they creatively can and then when they have to change gears the writers realised that they have left some characters behind and as Dan says cannot recover fast enough.
evolution1085
June 26, 2012 at 12:13PM EST Reply to CommentCopying my post from Alan's page because it seems the convo is more lively here
To go a little more into the "insufferable wife" question, I'm one of the people who can't stand Skyler. After listening to the podcast, I've tried to think so I can succinctly explain my vehement dislike of the character, and this is what I came up with. In the beginning of the series, she just wasn't used particularly well/interestingly, and on some level I think we're supposed to sympathize with Walt because he's in this relationship where he feels emasculated. As the series goes on though, and especially after she finds out about Walt, its just infuriatingly bad decision after bad decision. I understand the parallels that are supposed to be similar to how inept Walter and Jesse were in season 1, but Skylar's mistakes have the added problem of just being less INTERESTING than Walt's (the whole Benake thing only paid off with Bill Burr's face when he dies). I think Anna Gunn does good work, but just having Skylar on the screen makes me want to go "ugh", and it's probably mostly due to Dan's point about her function being antangonistic/as an impediment... but in the end she ends up doing those things quite mundanely.
mike
June 26, 2012 at 12:17PM EST Reply to Commentam i the only one who feels like they hate each other?
dan Yes.
June 26, 2012 at 12:27PM EST-Daniel
JedyKnight i'm sure Dan will take a bullet for Alan, and in a reverse scenario Alan will mourn Dan and write a beautiful eulogy (Alan is a Dad, cant be taking bullets for friends) :)
June 26, 2012 at 6:07PM ESTJedyKnight
June 26, 2012 at 6:04PM EST Reply to CommentI know that Episodes is has not, is not, and probably will not ever be Firewall/Iceberg cup of tea, but for what it's worth, I like it.
The 1st season did feel like stumbling a lot to find itself, and most of the eps were not always funny, but at least amusing. The second season (which I have been watching since it started on UK) feels improved, because it mainly knows who it's characters are. The arc with Leblanc and his current love interest, starts as a low joke but as it has advanced I think is showing dept to the character, reminds me a little of the drama aspect of the last seasons of Joey in Friends (of course, without the lol moments). The friendship between the female English lead and the American female executive has also develop nicely, and the character of the latter no longer feels like a caricature as it was in the first eps of the S1.
It still throws jabs at the industry and how it works (Age-ism, etc) which can be hit and miss, but don’t take over the show. Plus the broken marriage situation is following a more realistic path than a classic sitcom-y one. (Realistic especially for relationships broken up for infidelity)
There is an arc starting with Matt and a stalker that it doesn’t feel like it will be good, but im glad they are trying stuff and not just keep milking the plots that they have already walked through.
Muz
June 28, 2012 at 1:46PM EST Reply to CommentThe thing with Skyler for me is that in the first season I think the character was just there to make Walter's life look like crap and something to escape from. He was the former chemistry legend who missed his window and ended up with a crappy car, crappy job and the less attractive and shrewish woman.
I'm not trying to be mean, I seriously think that was her role initially. Ultimately that's what impressed me though, since that could have been very broad, but the writing and performance (perhaps moreso the performance) managed to walk that line where you know she might be a little grating in personality but she's actually in the right here.
Apparently lots never got past her somewhat grating personality though. Which is a shame, as you guys say, because she grew very well as things went along. you could put down her not working things out in the early seasons to being preoccupied with having the baby and Walter's illness covered most of the oddities.
They do seem to like pointing out that they care about each other though, which is good. But they could chuck in a few more glimpses of what they saw in each other. The impression of Walt as that trope guy who just got married to avoid getting left behind in the whole marriage thing is hard to delete.
John
July 3, 2012 at 4:44AM EST Reply to CommentRegarding Dan's comment about the audience being willing to forgive Xander for attempted sexual assault on Buffy (not his fault, as he was possessed) and not being willing to forgive him if he had participated in the cannibalism of the principal...there's a very easy explanation for that. The key word in there is "attempted." If he had actually raped Buffy, possessed or not, the audience would never have forgiven him.
Mads Winther I could be wrong, but I think the mention of bringing someone back from attempted rape is actually a reference to an event at the end of the sixth season. And that attempt was portrayed as a great deal more serious and traumatic, yet that character went on to be rehabilitated, with requisite mystical justification.
July 3, 2012 at 3:17PM ESTExcuse the vagueness. I'm trying very hard not to be spoilery, just in case someone's checking out Buffy for the first time because of this rewatch.