Review: 'The Dark Knight Rises' closes out Nolan's trilogy with brains and bombast
It's more clear than ever that all three films are one big story
- Critic's Rating A
- Readers' Rating A
It all comes down to this, both literally and figuratively, in Christopher Nolan's final Batman film, 'The Dark Knight Rises'
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"Are you so desperate to fight criminals that you'd lock yourself in so you can fight them one at a time?" - Ra's Al Ghul
So began "Batman Begins," Christopher Nolan's first Batman film. At the time, it felt unlike any film ever attempted with these characters, and strikingly different from superhero cinema in general.
This trilogy is exactly that: three films that work as one, a story told in three movements, and with "The Dark Knight Rises," it seems that Nolan has finished out his time with this icon in the only way he could based on where it began. I would argue that his so-called "real world" approach has never been particularly realistic, but it has always felt plausible based on the rules that he establishes for his world. The first film starts with an angry billionaire climbing a mountain so he can join a ninja death cult. That's not exactly Errol Morris. But there is a sincerity, a sober direct quality to the way the fantastic is handled, that makes it all feel like it could happen, and that's an enormous gift that should not be discounted.
Look at the imagery in "Batman Begins" of Bruce looking up from the bottom of the well he fell into, the well he is rescued from by his father, who asks him, "Why do we fall, Bruce? So we can pick ourselves up." Then look at the imagery in "The Dark Knight Rises" of Bruce looking up from the bottom of a prison where he finds himself at a physical and emotional low during a second-act stretch of the film. They look identical. Bruce spends his whole life confronting the things that he fears. His mission to make Gotham safe is selfish from start to finish, a personal journey towards either destruction or salvation with no acceptable middle ground. The moment his mother and father are gunned down in that alley, he is on the path that will eventually bring him face to face with Bane (Tom Hardy), and it is a preordained Apocalypse. The moment Jim Gordon (Gary Oldman) comforts that boy with a jacket around his shoulders, he is also locked into the dance, caught up in this fate. The moment Lucius Fox turns on the lights in the Applied Sciences storage rooms, he's caught. For Rachel, for Harvey Dent, for Alfred Pennyworth… for everyone in Bruce Wayne's orbit, there is only one way this story can possibly play out once Bruce is damaged in the first place. The clock has always been ticking for Bruce Wayne. The shadow of death hangs over this entire series, and while I think it is a great film, an impressive film, "The Dark Knight Rises" is a film I cannot easily describe in terms of fun.
Some people want fun from their comic book characters, and I don't fault them for that. There are incarnations of Batman, both in print and on film, that I think perfectly mine the potential fun from the premise. Nolan wasn't after that, though. Instead, he decided to explore the madness that would drive anyone to wear a rubber suit and face death every night, and what it would take to heal someone so profoundly broken. And by following that one idea through these three films, he's created my own personal favorite interpretation of the character on film so far. Is it the ultimate Batman, the best anyone can ever do? Nope. I'm not sure there could be such a thing. One of the reasons for the enduring popularity of the character is that it's so limber, and it can survive re-interpretation for many reasons and in many ways.
Jonathan Nolan and his brother are co-credited with the script, and David Goyer shares a story credit, and I'm curious to see what people think of the tale they've crafted. It is the most overtly comic-book of the three films, and I think when you look at this one and you see how it ties the three films together, you'll agree that this is not out of line with what came before, but rather a logical extension. It may also be the least subtle of the three films, but I think that's okay. These movies aren't really about quiet discourse. These are big, broad, bombastic statements, and each one has grappled with a different theme while tracing the development of Bruce Wayne's bizarre obsession. In the first film, Bruce had to find the method he would use to fight the darkness. In the second film, he had to deal with the escalating madness that erupted from his efforts. And now, in this final film, he has to decide which is more important: his life, or the symbol he has created.
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One of the things that has made this series work has been the casting of pretty much every key role, and that continues here. Anne Hathaway's interpretation of Selina Kyle, known best as Catwoman to most fans, is indelible, a strong and savvy match for Bruce Wayne, and instead of just being a flip-side mirror to him as she often is portrayed, she is instead presented here as the masked and angry face of the forgotten and the poor, justified in whatever she does because of the way life has treated her. She would have been enough of a character to support an entire film, but Nolan uses her as one part of the thesis of the movie, with Bane, the strange terrorist played by Tom Hardy, as the blunt instrument that drives the point home. Bane's plan to bring Gotham to its knees is elaborate and, once revealed, somewhat horrifying. He is not simply a rehash of the Joker, who was more of a force of chaos than anything. Bane is evil. He is unrelenting, unquestioning, destructive evil. He has no goal other than pain and horror and death, and he represents the first truly irresistible force that Batman has encountered.
Matthew Modine appears in this one, and he plays a sort of street's eye view character, someone whose importance might seem out of proportion at first because you recognize the actor. But that's not the point. It's not some stunt casting to tie in some obscure character from issue #137 of "Detective Comics" or whatever. I assume Nolan cast Modine because he's really good at what he does, and he's just a normal cop caught in the middle of this... well, let's call it what it is... this completely absolutely insane city-wrecking wrestling match between a demonic masked cult leader and a guy in a Batsuit made of body armor. And putting a face on that normal cop, and taking the time out of a two hour and forty-something minute movie... that's part of what appealed to me about this entire approach.
Another new cast member is Joseph Gordon-Levitt as John Blake, who also provides a normal person's view, but with a broader perspective on the events of the first two films, since he was a young man growing up in Gotham during the ascent of the Batman. He is a cop now, a sincerely good officer who catches the attention of Jim Gordon (Oldman), just as Gordon is struggling to cope with the emotional guilt of the lie that he and Batman told eight years earlier at the death of Harvey Dent. Batman's been gone that entire time, and Blake wants to understand what happened and why, and he believes Gordon has those answers. Marion Cotillard is also a new addition to the cast as Miranda Tate, and she seems to represent a new opportunity for Bruce to connect to someone, a chance for him to build a life outside of Gotham. She does strong work with a tough role, and she has several moments that are impressively nuanced.
Gotham has always been a major character in the Nolan films, and that's true here as well. As appropriate as "The Dark Knight Rises" ends up being as a title, I think "Gotham City" would have been equally fitting. Using numerous cities to stand in as Gotham is clever, because it ends up feeling like every city, even though it has several characteristics that don't tie to any one location. In this film, the city becomes the final battle ground for Bruce Wayne's soul, his body, and his sanity, and he is pushed harder than ever before. Nolan seems to believe that a lie in service of something good is still a lie, and it's been festering. Every bad decision Bruce Wayne has made since the start of this series comes back to haunt him in this film, and fans would be advised to watch both of the earlier films to see how everything ties together. Bale's performance here is miles different than his work in either of the other films. In "Batman Begins," there is a boyish inexperience, and I like the material where he's figuring out this new identity for himself. Even though "The Dark Knight" is very dark at times, there's an exuberance to Bruce as he comes into his own, and he seems driven, pleased to have found a purpose. In this film, a sorrow has settled onto him, and even when he is suited up and in action, he barely seems like a shadow of the man he used to be. He's rotting from the inside, knowing full well what his actions have cost the people around him. He is dying because of the loss of Rachel in "The Dark Knight," and he doesn't seem to know how he can heal at all. The end of the first film, when Rachel confronts him about his identity, offers Bruce his one way out of things, and much of "The Dark Knight" deals with his struggle to take that escape route and what happens when it's taken from him forever. In this new film, he has no more hope, no more heart, and it makes him just as dangerous as Bane, but to himself more than anyone else.
Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman have become the de facto fathers to Bruce at this point, and their work as Alfred and Lucius in this film is just as strong as it's been throughout the series. I really like the way these characters have been defined in the films, and I think these actors have done tremendous work bringing warmth and heart to roles that could easily have been excuses for exposition. And if you're looking for bastions of class and dignity to be mentor figures, you couldn't do much better than those two. Oldman is excellent as the tormented Gordon, and at this point, I don't care how he does or doesn't compare to earlier print versions of the character. This Jim Gordon intrigues me, and it's a real role, with a complex heart. He loses at least as much as Bruce over the course of the series, and he does it without the safety of a secret identity or the resources of the Batman. He may see himself as morally compromised, but the film definitely sees him as a human scaled hero.
The technical side of things is sharper than ever before, and if this really is the last film that Wally Pfister shoots, he's going out in style. Even more of this film was shot with IMAX cameras than "The Dark Knight," and it makes for some breathtaking visual moments that match the emotional impact of the film's operatic final act. Hans Zimmer's work here is brutal, percussive, borderline crazy. It feels like things are starting to shake to pieces, like the entire world is about to implode. I found the final movement of the film, a good thirty minutes or so, almost unbearably emotional, and I think it may be the best stretch in any of the films. There are some logic issues I have with parts of the film, and we'll get into those in the "Second Look," but there is a clean, uncompromised emotional arc that steamrolls those problems for me, and I think the film more than fulfills the promise made by the first two films.
We may never see superhero films quite like these again, and that's fine. Nolan had something special to say with his time in the trenches, and he's ended on his own terms. I suspect that the reaction to the film will be hotly divided, but I'm firmly on the side that this is a triumph, a victory for all involved, and one of the year's most impressive efforts so far in any genre, on any subject. "The Dark Knight Rises" confirms that these films have always had an endgame in mind, and it has been a remarkable ride, one I would not want to follow. Whoever Warner Bros hires to reboot the "Batman" films a few years from now, I wish you luck. The bar is as high as it could possibly be.
"The Dark Knight Rises" everywhere on July 20, 2012.
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Next 129 CommentsNaughtyBearJew
July 16, 2012 at 3:00AM EST Reply to Commentcant wait!
Karen
July 16, 2012 at 3:13AM EST Reply to CommentAmazing, amazing film. It makes every other movie this year look like nuclear waste.
Corvus No; The Dark Knight Rises is good on its merits, satisfying and memorable and strong in most areas, but it doesn't lay waste to all this year's other releases to justify such hyperbole.
July 16, 2012 at 7:04AM ESTscottish_punk That's your opinion, Corvus. Not Karen's, and not everyone else's.
July 16, 2012 at 7:13AM ESTCaptainobvvious @SCOTTISH_PUNK
July 16, 2012 at 7:52AM ESTI don't think any objective observer would agree that this movie is SO good that it makes every other movie released this year look like garbage.
I am sure its a great movie but there have been other good movie released this year and they don't look like garbage because this movie is good.
mmcb105 I have to agree with Scottish_Punk here guys. This is Karen's opinion, you disagree. Now we move on.
July 16, 2012 at 9:47AM ESTBill__brasky Of course Karen is entitled to her opinion on this film. Unfortunately, the hyperbolic nature of her statement isn't conducive to a healthy discourse. No matter what you think of TDKR, it doesn't retroactively make every other great movie this year look like nuclear waste.
July 16, 2012 at 1:08PM ESTmmcb105 The movie may not retroactively change your opinion of other movies, Bill, but it did for Karen. The post wasn't intended to promote healthy discourse. Karen wasn't making a point and expecting a counter-point, she simply stated her opinion. Since her opinion deals solely with her own subjective views of movies and their worth in her eyes, it is impossible for someone who isn’t Karen to logically argue that her statement is incorrect. You can say that that The Dark Knight Rises did not have the same effect for you, and you would be right. You both would be. That’s the nature of subjectivity.
July 16, 2012 at 2:01PM ESTSean Somebody dared to use hyperbole on a commentary board? For shame! Stop crying and go watch The Avengers again.
July 16, 2012 at 3:04PM ESTskippy The hyperbolic nature of her comment is neutral, it's the anonymity of the web that isn't conducive to a healthy discourse.
July 16, 2012 at 3:12PM ESTSean Someone who was lucky enough to go to a screening of The Dark Knight Rises, and was really jazzed about the movie, can mouth off about it a little bit.
July 16, 2012 at 3:25PM ESTcultstatus
July 16, 2012 at 3:13AM EST Reply to CommentWe'll never know, but I wonder how different this movie would have been if Heath were alive. Got to think The Joker would have had a big role after that performance.
Brad Why on Earth would Nolan cart out the same villain for two movies? That wreaks of desperation. The Joker was fantastic...but that was The Dark Knight, no need to keep flogging the same idea. I don't understand people sometimes.
July 16, 2012 at 4:51AM ESTcultstatus Please explain how bringing back the Joker for the 3rd film(not talking about re-casting, I'm saying if Heath had lived)"wreaks of desperation"?
July 16, 2012 at 5:05AM ESTIf Nolan was truly done with the character and had nothing more to say about it, he would have killed him off.
That Werewolf Guy Actually I remember interviews with Goyer and/or Nolan, that were made after Batman Begins and how they hinted at a larger story arc for The Joker. If I remember right, the original plan was to let The Joker survive (of course that still happened) and have the next movie deal with his trial (among other things).
July 16, 2012 at 5:59AM ESTBut of course that was back in 2005, so even if Ledger would still be alive, they might have done things differently anyway.
Brad It definitely would wreak of desperation- using the same old villain essentially means youve run out of ideas. As much as I love Ledger's Joker (one of, if not THE, greatest villain of all time) bringing him back would have been boring. Bane was a far more inspired choice and presents a whole different threat...why go down the same road twice? It seems to me American audiences don't like surprises or new things...quite sad.
July 16, 2012 at 7:06AM ESTCaptainobvvious #BRAD
July 16, 2012 at 7:55AM ESTI have to agree with you.
What we saw with The Joker was a force. The more we see of him the less impact he has. What we saw was enough and should have been left where it was if Ledger hadn't died.
I don't know if it would look DESPERATE to bring him back but it wouldn't have been the best idea.
DK Reminisce all you like, but I remember it completely being up in the air as to whether Dark Knight would even have a sequel. A story idea wasn't anywhere near completed by the end of 2008.
July 16, 2012 at 9:35AM ESTPerhaps it was mid-Dark Knight that an idea was thrown out there, but we all know Nolan wasn't necessarily considering a third act to this at first. Pretty pointless argument.
AManWithAKilt Unless I'm mistaken, it was fairly widely reported that Nolan wasn't sure how to continue the series after Ledger's death because the third movie was going to have the Joker as the villain. Read into that what you will. I think it would have been good. He really had to re-think the series. I think if Ledger were still alive this movie would have been a more direct sequel to The Dark Knight as opposed to a more thematic sequel to Batman Begins. It doesn't really matter, what happened, happened and it sounds like he did a good job with Rises, regardless of his misgivings.
July 16, 2012 at 12:43PM ESTPaul F One of Jokers last lines, "...I think you and I are destined to do this forever." I think it's safe to say that TDKR was probably originally intended to be the resolution of the Joker/Batman conflict.
July 16, 2012 at 11:59PM ESTdrew But we do know.
July 17, 2012 at 1:34AM ESTNolan has always approached this series as "leave it all on the field." So for "Batman Begins," he made it as if there was no chance he'd make another one. For "The Dark Knight," he made it as if there's no chance he'd make another one. And in both cases, he also left plenty of threads in the finished films that he could explore later, depending on the situation.
It wasn't until almost a year after "The Dark Knight" that Nolan and his brother and Goyer finally broke the story in a way that made it a necessity for Nolan to make it. Before that, he wasn't sure he'd do a sequel, and Heath's death really took the wind out of his sails.
Steve Ledger's death notwithstanding, I am glad that the third film takes place many years after TDK. That allows for the Joker's story arc to happen partially off screen (we're not sure what happened to him in those 8 years). In creating a new story for the third installment, Nolan has crafted a genuine trilogy. Each movie stands on its own and tells its own story while being part of a larger context. Other modern trilogies stumbled because parts 2 & 3 were essentially told as one story so the trilogies felt like a first film and a really long sequel told in two parts (I'm looking at you Matrix and Pirates of the Caribbean parts 1-3).
July 19, 2012 at 2:52PM ESTGamesix
July 16, 2012 at 3:22AM EST Reply to CommentSomething something why do you hate TASM something something.
Now that we have that out of the way, I'll also chime in with a "can't wait!"
Mojo CoCo
July 16, 2012 at 4:05AM EST Reply to CommentBah, I can't bring myself to read through the review. I was so psyched when you started tweeting about it lol. I think its because Prometheus gave so much away before its release and it killed the movie :( Oh well, im going in pure I guess.
Blacksheepsmith
July 16, 2012 at 7:43AM EST Reply to CommentDrew, how is Tom Hardy as Bane? You're review suggests Bane is pure evil and that is sure interesting, but how is the character and performance? Strong, bizarre, iconic, sufficient? What works?
Dryden I was wondering if Bane's voice was an issue, given how much uproar there was about it last year.
July 16, 2012 at 9:55AM ESTAlex Dryden, I've read Nolan took note of what fans were saying and re-tooled the voice to make it much more audible in the final product. Hoping it's true.
July 16, 2012 at 4:14PM ESTdrew We'll get into the specifics of Bane in the second-look piece, but it's impressive work, especially since he really only has his eyes to use to make an impression. The voice makes me cackle. It's kind of a crazy choice, this weird clipped British voice coming out of that gorilla in a breathing mask, but I love the contrast.
July 16, 2012 at 4:22PM ESTln He's good. really good. I loved the way the voice turned out, Tom Hardy often has this purring quality to his speech that worked for this. I will always wonder what might have been had Heath lived, i think a version of this film with the Joker and Bane as the villains ( and minus the Marion Cotillard and Anne Hathaway characters)would have been amazing, but so was this. 2012 has been a good year for movies!
July 18, 2012 at 1:40PM ESTFranetic @ People Who've Seen It
July 18, 2012 at 3:36PM ESTSo relieved to hear that. Hardy's one hell of an actor, but I was worried having half his face covered would be a serious drawback. Gah, I can't wait 'til Thursday night!
Jared K
July 16, 2012 at 9:21AM EST Reply to CommentIt would have been impossible for a movie to face higher expectations than TDKR, and I’m thrilled to hear that it holds up in strong, engaging fashion as both as its own entity and as a conclusion to this fantastic series. Not that I doubted for a moment that Christopher Nolan and his remarkable team would come through – it’s just a relief to hear that at least for now, people seem to be embracing the film for what it brings to the table and not getting bogged down in an endless cycle competitive contrasting with its predecessor, The Dark Knight. There will be plenty of time for that later, if we really must.
On my early-morning binge of the recently un-embargoed reviews, I’m noticing three particularly common threads of acclaim – Bale’s series-best performance, the expanded use of the IMAX format, and the film’s riveting and emotionally stirring closing stretch. I’m very much looking forward to seeing two of the three brought to life on Friday morning (sadly, there are no midnight IMAX showings close to where I live – I’ll catch an IMAX screening later in the weekend).
Brian
July 16, 2012 at 9:29AM EST Reply to CommentI never said thank you. And you'll never have to...Thank you Chris, you did this iconic character justice. I cannot wait for midnight release to come fast enough.
fettastic
July 16, 2012 at 9:40AM EST Reply to CommentI'm sure it's going to be tough to reboot, because these films are so incredibly opratic and smart.
However, all the films so far have asked the question "What if somebody GOT to the Batman?" and that's not really a question that comes up in the comics. In print, Batman is stone cold, always has a plan and a backup plan. He knows exactly what to do. No matter what's going down, you can look at him and think "He'll fix this." Only the animated series has really tapped that. Batman is the ultimate perception of a dad. When a little boy looks up at his father, he just knows dad will make it alright and as long as he's around you can relax. I don't know, to me THAT'S Batman. A solid, square-jawed guy who not only can assess the situation better than anyone, but who is completely at peace with the decisions he makes. He's not wracked with guilt or constantly questioning himself. He's not always looking for a way out of being Batman. He IS Batman. He created this life for himself because it's what he WANTS to do, and he does it better than anyone. he's the World's Greatest Detective not because he sulks in his cave all day saying "Woe is me", but because it is his life's ambition.
THAT'S where they need to take the reboot and THAT'S how they can get away with being compared with Nolan.
B That's the best description of where they should go I've ever seen. No origin, so set up, just Batman and Robin in the cave doing their thing. Have all the villains already there and just tell an interesting story with a capable bad ass Batman, like the Arkham video games.
July 16, 2012 at 10:08AM ESTfettastic Agreed, the Arkham games nail the batman I'm describing. He never gets scared, or upset. He doesn't cry or regret. I'm not saying he doesn't feel those things, but they are buried under tons of confidence and steely ass-kicking badassery.
July 16, 2012 at 10:14AM ESTAnd next time I want white eyes. I don't care if it doesn't make any logical sense. And I want the scalloped cape back too.
Sean Sounds like a pretty boring take on Batman; one without any introspection or inner conflict. The best Batman stories (The Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum) have Batman overcoming some sort of self doubt or personal crisis (hell, in The Dark Knight Returns, Batman is sequestered for more than a decade).
July 16, 2012 at 8:10PM ESTIf you want a Batman who is always confident and never questions his decisions why don't you cast John Wayne in the role? Or George W. Bush?
fettastic Did you think the entire run of Batman The Animated Series was boring?
July 16, 2012 at 8:25PM ESTSean I thought it was a cartoon. With cartoonish story lines and sentiments.
July 16, 2012 at 8:34PM ESTJeffmc2000 Hate to break it to you, but Batman is a cartoon character. Still, if you're telling a story that deserves a movie you do need to add a "what if?" to the premise of the all-knowing, bad-ass superhero. Like what if Batman lost all his money, or fell in love or got cancer or something. Some sort of change to his status quo that makes you curious as to how the character that you already know so well will deal with it.
July 17, 2012 at 8:17AM ESTAlso, isn't it weird in this series that Batman was only an active force for less than a year before retiring? I've had colds that lasted longer than his crimefighting career.
Sean Batman isn't a cartoon character, he's a comic book character.
July 17, 2012 at 1:45PM ESTBeef Supreme I agree with this. It doesn't mean it will be boring - think the latest BBC "Sherlock" series, reimagined as a Batman vehicle. The way to go is to make a straightforward detective story with twists and interesting characterizations, IMO.
July 18, 2012 at 8:25PM ESTKlarkKent
July 16, 2012 at 10:02AM EST Reply to CommentIt sounds like it's taken them seven hours to tell the same story that Mask of the Phantasm did in 90 minutes, heh. Regardless, I enjoyed the first couple of Batman movies that Nolan made. I thought the first one was a little underpraised and the second one a little overpraised. For some reason I just can't get excited about this one, though. Oh, I'm sure I'll see it. But maybe it's the way that it sounds like they may have gotten political with the plot, maybe it's the designs of Bane and Catwoman, maybe it's the underwhelming trailer... I'm not sure. But I'm just not pumped about seeing this one, even after a review from Drew like this.
fettastic The thing I loved about Batman Begins was that it takes the characters seriously. It gives gravitas to Bruce Wayne, Gordon, etc. They're motivations are exceptionally clear and you empathise with them. I mean, when Wayne has a flash of his father getting shot and tosses the gun into the water with disgust, THAT'S Batman!
July 16, 2012 at 10:19AM ESTHowever, the second half of that film really falls apart and I guess that's where the "underpraise" comes from. The threat is frankly ridiculous and very much in line with previous Batman films. It's just goofy. The film also falls into cliche like Scarecrow taking Rachael aside and saying "Here, let me show you my whole evil plan the good guys would otherwise have no idea about until it was too late".
And if you think TDK wasn't political, you missed the best parts of it.
Jeremy AGree with Fettastic. TDK is very political...it's just not beating you over the head with it...it's very clever. I hope this one walk that line as well. :)
July 16, 2012 at 1:45PM ESTKlarkKent I think there's a difference between the "politics" in TDK and the stuff I've heard about him using Occupy footage and whatnot. If he is able to walk the line, as Jeremy suggests, I'll be quite happy with it. If he uses it as a soapbox to hit me over the head with left-wing rants for a few hours, I'll be terribly disappointed. If I wanted that, I'd watch The Newsroom.
July 16, 2012 at 2:36PM ESTfettastic I thought it was made pretty clear when they shot in NYC that there was NO involvement with the Occupy protest whatsoever.
July 16, 2012 at 2:49PM ESTNolan was pretty middle of the road with the politics of TDK, it's just cool that it was there. Left and right mindsets didn't really apply.
drew There's no Occupy footage in the film, and the politics of TDKR all have to do with Gotham, not the real world. He's painting in big broad metaphor here, and the notion of the haves versus the have nots has been around for a lot longer than the last few years. Hell, "A Tale Of Two Cities" is as big an influence on the text of the film as any recent real-world events, so it's safe to say this is about big ideas, not ham-handed political cartooning.
July 16, 2012 at 4:21PM ESTKlarkKent Fett & Drew, That makes me glad. I can't remember where I'd read that he was doing that during production, but I recall very distinctly reading that he was going to at whatever time that was. Maybe they were mistaken. Regardless, I'm glad things aren't taken a sudden turn into, as you said, "ham-handed political cartooning." I hadn't seen it from Nolan yet and I hoped this wouldn't be his first foray.
July 16, 2012 at 4:29PM ESTfettastic Drew, I agree with you to a point, but can you really look at that TDK poster with Batman standing at the foot of a tower with a giant flaming hole in it with smoke billowing out and the phrase "Welcome to a world without rules" on it and NOT think he was drawing from modern times? Of course he was.
July 16, 2012 at 4:32PM ESTJust like wiretapping was drawn from the concerns of the day. But the only conclusion Nolan draws from these things is that while we may react badly to the threat of violence as a group, individually we still express compassion. And that is something we all can build on.
fettastic Let me delve into that a bit deeper because I don't want to be misunderstood.
July 16, 2012 at 4:47PM ESTThe Dark Knight is about 9/11. It's about how we will forge ahead in a world that doesn't comply with our ideals. In a world where a few ragtag jackasses can literally turn the world upside down, not because they are so clever or creative...but through the sustained use of FEAR. How do we fight something that just doesn't care? It's not about money, it's not about power...it's just about "Injecting a little chaos".
Because when people don't feel safe, as a group, they lose the ability to be rational. The Joker goes into great detail on this with Harvey Dent.
And so The White Knight (America) has been severly scarred. His pride has been ripped open. his "schemes" backfired and literally blew up in his face. So what does he do? Does he cling to his ideals? Does he practice what he preaches? Nope, he finds someone to blame and holds a gun to their head, even though that someone had absolutely nothing to do with what hurt him. he does this because in his warped sense of justice...it's what's "fair".
Someone could write one hell of a term paper on this movie folks.
Sean Couldn't agree with you more Fettastic. I think Drew is being a little dismissive of the modern parallels Nolan is clearly drawing on in TDKR.
July 16, 2012 at 8:31PM ESTSure, Nolan used A Tale of Two Cities as an inspiration, but as Fettastic mentioned, TDK was clearly a 9/11 allegory; it would be silly to think that Nolan wasn't drawing on the economic collapse, and the 1% and 99% when writing the screenplay.
It's funny that Ray Bradbury recently passed, because Nolan and Bradbury were both genre creators who used metaphor to elevate their respective genres; it makes there work more resonant than something like The Avengers (which I loved).
CinemaPsycho If you really want to read politics into everything, you shouldn't watch anything except maybe Garfield: The Movie. Although I'm sure certain people could see that as an attack on family values...
July 17, 2012 at 1:20AM ESTdrew Yes, guys, I get that.
July 17, 2012 at 1:31AM ESTBut my point is that Nolan's movies are not "just" about any single political situation or real-world parallel. I think he's taking ideas and feelings that are very much a part of our culture and he's also using those things to talk about larger ideas about power and abuse and the way lies erode a society.
I think it's dismissive to say that Nolan is only doing a 9/11 allegory, and it's also a dangerous game to play when you're trying to impose a political view on something that is aiming at a broader conversation about the ideas.
Sean Yes, you're right. Nolan's Batman films aren't simply 9/11 allegories, and I don't know if he's taking any particular political stance. But what is not so much "imposed," but inherent in Nolan's Batman films, is our current socio-economic climate.
July 17, 2012 at 1:49AM ESTfettastic The themes at the core of 9/11 and subsequent wars are absolutely integral to the story of TDK. Again, look at the poster. I don't Nolan could have been any more clear if he wrote in big block letters on it "THIS IS ABOUT 9/11!".
July 17, 2012 at 9:21AM ESTBut that doesn't mean that those themes and ideas can't translate to other real-world situations, 9/11 and the various memes surrounding it is just the vehicle he chose to use. He could just as well have used the Reichstag fire in Berlin, since it's essentially the same story, at least at the beginning. The difference being that the Nazis directed their hate at the entire planet instead of just one ethnic group.
The point is, yes there are larger themes at work, but the phrasing is right out of 9/11. That's how, even if you didn't realize why, that film is so permeating.
It's been my experience that conservatives absolutely refuse to believe TDK had anything to do with 9/11 and the surrounding atmosphere of that time. I don't really know why, but the common response is that people who do see those parallels are reading their own interpretation into it. Again I say...look at the poster. That should be all you need.
Sean Who's saying that there aren't parallels to 9/11? I think Drew's argument is that while the 9/11 parallels are there, the movies aren't just about 9/11.
July 17, 2012 at 2:18PM ESTI think that the series would become tedious if that was its one and only thesis and just because I think that, doesn't mean I'm conservative or have a conservative outlook.
fettastic I guess I could retort "Who's saying I'm accusing anyone of saying there aren't parallels to 9/11?"
July 17, 2012 at 2:54PM ESTI'm not interested in playing a game of semantics and degrees. TDK uses 9/11 imagery and themes to express Nolan's ideas about fear and control. There's no reason to hammer back and forth about exactly what percentage is from this or that or whether or not those themes are exclusive to 9/11 or whatever. I have made my point exceedingly succinctly. You can agree or disagree, I care not.
Sean Obviously, you didn't make your point "exceedingly succinctly (shouldn't it just be 'succinctly'?)," or I wouldn't have felt the need to comment on it.
July 17, 2012 at 3:24PM ESTAnd while I agree with with your argument that Nolan uses 9/11 imagery to explore his themes, the whole "just look at the poster" argument is pretty weak sauce. Nolan's Batman films aren't the only films to have a crumbling building in the backdrop of the poster. Hell, Inception had crumbling buildings in the backdrop of its poster, does that mean it's a 9/11 allegory too?
fettastic Did the Inception poster have a tower with a giant flaming hole near the top of it, billows of smoke coming out of it and the phrase "Welcome to a world without rules" on it?
July 17, 2012 at 11:59PM EST*eyeroll*
And the fact that you continue to fail to grasp what I have described isn't my fault, it's yours. In the same way telling someone the sky is blue 5 times and they still don't get it isn't my fault.
This isn't rocket science people.
Sean Don't worry, Fettastic. I grasped what you described. Everybody grasped what you described.
July 18, 2012 at 1:02AM ESTBut no one knows why the hell you said it in the first place. No one was questioning Nolan's 9/11 parallels, and yet you decided to go on a tirade about it.
Needed to get something off your chest, did you?
fettastic Apparently you didn't since you keep going back to "It's not ALL about 9/11", even AFTER I said it could have been about Reichstag or anything else.
July 18, 2012 at 1:13AM ESTAnd to refresh, since scrolling up and/or remembering seem to be a challenge, I first brought up 9/11 after Drew said this: "the politics of TDKR all have to do with Gotham, not the real world". That's when I said that no, it WAS derived from the real world, 9/11 in particular.
So, either try to keep up or stop chasing the bus altogether.
drew I think it's you who is chasing the wrong bus, Fettastic.
July 18, 2012 at 1:18AM ESTWhile only a complete idiot would say that 9/11 had no influence on Nolan's thinking going into "The Dark Knight," my original point stands.
These movies are not simply meant to be direct modern allegory. "The Dark Knight" is not a 9/11 movie because it takes the anxieties and fears and collective thoughts that were in the air at the time and uses them to explore (A) a very specific character and (B) the general themes that came out of living through that time.
And in "TDKR," which is the film I was talking about in my quote, the politics are even less about the real world, and even more about Gotham specifically, which allows Nolan to explore an idea without tying it to something so hamhanded as a single real-world event.
But keep telling me about how 9/11 was a big deal, in case I wasn't alive when it happened.
fettastic We're both circling the same drain and you want to argue about the temperature of the water. i don't know what I have to say to get my point across. Let me recap:
July 18, 2012 at 1:51AM EST1) I said Noklan used 9/11 imagery and themes to explore the point he wanted to make about power and control.
2) Sean says "Couldn't agree with you more Fettastic. I think Drew is being a little dismissive of the modern parallels Nolan is clearly drawing on in TDKR."
3) Cinemapsycho gi9ves the typical "You're projecting non-existant content into it" and basically says I think Garfield is a terrorist plot.
4) Drew chimes back in and starts framing things differently than what they are. He actually begins the "mission creep" about how it's not JUST about 9/11, as if I had said that it was.
5) Sean now jumps the fence and becomes Drew's yes-man for unknown reasons. he doubles-down on this ridiculous notion that I have somehow implied that TDK is a remake of Oliver Stones Twin Towers.
6) I accept that maybe I wasn't clear and go on for several paragraphs describing in intimate detail, scenes from the film that paralleled the real life events during and after 9/11.
I even say that it might just as well have used the reichstag fire or other evfents in history that triggered similar responses.
7) Sean says "Yeah but.....It's not just about 9/11". *facepalm*
8)I tell Sean that he's just not understanding me.
9) he says he understands perfvectly well.....and it's not just about 9/11.
10) Drew chimes in and says...you guessed it..."It's not just about 9/11".
*long, heavy sigh*
drew Then obviously we're all idiots and your fine distinction is too much for us to comprehend.
July 18, 2012 at 1:55AM ESTNever mind that your several paragraphs make explicit things I disagree with, as I've now said several times. I do not believe it is that clear-cut.
But by all means... it's a comprehension issue on our end, so please... let it go.
Sean I agreed with your initial argument that there are 9/11 parallels in Nolan's films. But I also agreed with Drew's argument that, even though Nolan's films have 9/11 parallels, they aren't simply a 9/11 allegory. Not exactly jumping the fence there, they're two disparate points; but if that makes me Drew's yes-man, then so be it.
July 18, 2012 at 2:00AM ESTfettastic "Never mind that your several paragraphs make explicit things I disagree with, as I've now said several times."
July 18, 2012 at 2:02AM ESTI have no idea what this sentence means.
I don't see you mentioning anything specific about the story points I listed and saying anything specific about them one way or the other.
But please, tell me again that TDK isn't JUST about 9/11. And if you could get one more "ham-fisted" in there, that would be great.
And I guess I have somehow insulted you by mentioning 9/11. In some fashion I have implied that you were not aware of it? *confused* I have no idea where that came from. Are you drunk or something? Dude, it's Tuesday!
fettastic I'm trying to figure out where this "It's not an allegory" stuff is coming from.
July 18, 2012 at 2:23AM ESTDrew started that ball rolling before this next post, but I am assuming it's what crawled up both your butts and died:
"And so The White Knight (America) has been severly scarred. His pride has been ripped open. his "schemes" backfired and literally blew up in his face. So what does he do? Does he cling to his ideals? Does he practice what he preaches? Nope, he finds someone to blame and holds a gun to their head, even though that someone had absolutely nothing to do with what hurt him. he does this because in his warped sense of justice...it's what's "fair"."
This is my analysis of the film. Forgive me but it's what I used to do for a living. The cool thing about art is that people can walk up to the same painting and walk away with very different perceptions of what they just witnessed. The above paragraph is just that. There is no place where Goyer or Nolan state that course of events mirrored real life events. It's my interpretation that they do, but intelligent people can dissagree.
First of all, if that paragraph IS what's bothering you...just say so. Don't do this roundabout BS of saying I'm "ham-fisted" and casting all the characters in TDK as White House Cabinet members!
fettastic But AGAIN let me emphasize that same paragraph could be about the Reichstag fire in Berlin. Because the exact same course of events took place as they did after 9/11.
July 18, 2012 at 2:30AM ESTSo YES, it is NOT an allegory for 9/11. It's an allegory for how people respond to terrorism. Specifically how people with great power respond to the FEAR of terrorism.
i don't know how to break it down any further than that. There's probably good money on both of you coming back with "But....but it's not JUST about 9/11! That's HAM-FISTED!"
Sean Sigh. So after all this, what you're saying is that you agree with the idea that Nolan's films aren't simply a 9/11 allegory.
July 18, 2012 at 2:46AM ESTYou could have saved us the trouble by simply agreeing with us instead of throwing comment after comment of word vomit at us.
Incedently, I think you deserve an award for how batshit (pun intended!) crazy those last couple of posts were. Next time don't be so ham-fisted.
fettastic This is my post from yesterday at 9:21AM:
July 18, 2012 at 10:27AM EST:But that doesn't mean that those themes and ideas can't translate to other real-world situations, 9/11 and the various memes surrounding it is just the vehicle he chose to use. He could just as well have used the Reichstag fire in Berlin, since it's essentially the same story, at least at the beginning. The difference being that the Nazis directed their hate at the entire planet instead of just one ethnic group."
So I'm not changing my tune. I've been sayign teh same thing all along.
fettastic From Nordlings review on AICN:
July 19, 2012 at 2:37AM EST"THE DARK KNIGHT also had its politics to play with - the War on Terror is very prevalent in that film, some places fairly obvious and some not so obvious - and it really felt like the movie was a commentary on America at the time."
Just sayin'.
drew That's now five responses you've posted, hoping to once again extend this.
July 19, 2012 at 2:46AM ESTYou have made your point so many times now that I'm not sure what you're hoping for.
Congratulations! You have a point that you have repeatedly made! I will begin planning your parade as soon as I give a shit.
Please... repeat it a few more times. With examples and illustrations if necessary.
scottish_punk "Congratulations! You have a point that you have repeatedly made! I will begin planning your parade as soon as I give a shit."
July 22, 2012 at 12:00PM ESTFucking brilliant.
Drew, you have officially won the Internet.
milkingcowboy hahahahahaha now we know why you want to make your point Fettastic because you read too much reviews on AICN.
July 26, 2012 at 2:26PM ESTTWTCommish
July 16, 2012 at 11:28AM EST Reply to Comment"Nolan seems to believe that a lie in service of something good is still a lie, and it's been festering."
You made my year with this line. I started writing a short essay two years ago (it went up this past October, found here: http://www.movieforums.com/essays/christopher-nolans-useful-lies.html) that noted that the idea of the "useful lie" permeated all of Nolan's films and probably signaled that the seeming triumph of the same at the end of TDK was almost certainly a bad omen for the next film. Lo and behold, it seems to be the case.
I dunno if this is deliberate on Nolan's part, or if he's just interested in the idea enough that it keeps seeping into his work, but his other films provide a pretty clear trend to which TDK was the only real exception, which made it stick out like a sore thumb. The hints were always there, telling us that it was going to backfire...
Also, great review in general. :) And the idea of having two--one to whet people's appetite without spoiling the film, and one for after they've seen it--is brilliant. Keep it up!
Melkay Sir... your essay is absolutely terrific. You have cracked the code. Nolan is definitely not that interested in subjectiveness and alternate realities, as many reviewers point out, as in the morality and the psychological burden of deception and self-deception.
July 19, 2012 at 8:40PM ESTHe seems particularly intrigued by the distinction between 'bad' lies and 'good' inspirational lies; Inception's themes are mostly about the how his beloved film industry works, injecting lies (stories) into their minds in order to, hopefully, inspire them. Nolan seems to be puzzled about the power of lies and the residual guilt it creates on the liar. Shelby, Dormer, Borden, Angier, Wayne... all men who must 'live' their lies, at great cost, to prevent them from falling apart. And Nolan lives this as well... a magician who won't ever talk about his tricks, or their power to amaze will vanish.
I'm not entirely sure he has this big dilemmas figured out. In his movies he seems to err on the side of truth and living an open life. But I think he's just settling for one of two possible final conclusions. I think tha,t in his mind, the jury is still out on how moral and beneficial lies can really be.
Melkay Also, I think you can do some reverse-engineering to understand which themes stem from Chris Nolan's mind, and which one come from his brother's. Jonah Nolan's 'Person of Interest' show has many tropes that are common to the Nolan brothers movies... the 'dead loved one' motivation, altruist acts driven by personal guilt, a debate on the merits of vigilantism, the personal toll of a protagonist 'on a mission', the blurred distinction between crime and law-enforcement (a really corrupt police force), how reliable the Law really is, etc.
July 19, 2012 at 8:59PM EST... but there's little to no dilemma about the usefulness,morality or psychological dangers of deception and self-deception. None.
I think Chris Nolan is the one more interest with the power and threat of lies, and the rest of the topics are more abundant in Jonah's mind.
And I wouldn't rule out it has something to do with that third Nolan brother, Matthew Nolan, convicted on charges of murder and also a suspect in a cheque fraud case. I believe some of this story topics are so recurrent and passionate in the Nolan brother's work they could be traced to their personal life.
johnnyrocket
July 16, 2012 at 11:32AM EST Reply to CommentSo, Letterman wasn't kidding? Although I understand the point probably being made about the symbol over the man, or perhaps 'surviving' the man... I can't shake the feeling this will all be a big let down if Bruce Wayne doesn't survive this.. If someone else puts on the mask at the end, that's not really going to fill me with a sense of fulfillment.. because the theme of redemption/salvation in these films is actually about Bruce.. not Batman..
Jack696 I feel the same way too. So, the movie is supposed to begin with broken and battered Bruce Wayne and ends with him dead, where is the part of " Rise " metaphor in it? It'll be a big let down. I doubt he will die at the end of the movie. Somethings gotta come off of it to justify the title.
July 16, 2012 at 4:15PM ESTjohnnyrocket Hope you're right. Maybe Drew will take pity on us and email us the answer on the side.. and put us out of our misery.. ;)
July 16, 2012 at 4:30PM ESTMatthew
July 16, 2012 at 12:44PM EST Reply to CommentIf someone were to tell me the ending of TDKR I wouldn't at all be sad or upset. The stress of whether or not he dies at the end is making me crazy.
John Why so serious?
July 16, 2012 at 1:40PM ESTMatthew HAHAHAHAHHa, John. I just hate not knowing if my favorite character makes it or not.
July 16, 2012 at 1:43PM ESTMark Based on Drew's review, my guess is that Bruce Wayne does indeed die. Words and phrases like "a certain inevitability [at how things play out]," "operatic" (in operas, everyone dies, especially the hero), "endgame," and especially "which is more important: his life, or the symbol he has created" (given Batman's decision regarding Harvey Dent at the end of DK, I think we know which one he would likely pick). Drew might have been trying to be careful to avoid spoilers, but he sure seemed to be hinting, however unintentionally at Batman's death. JMO.
July 16, 2012 at 2:39PM ESTfettastic I'm totally fine with Batman dying. There are like a billion iterations of Batman in the comics. The Nolanverse is just another one of those. As much as he really nailed the spirit of Batman in some ways, in others it is completely different.
July 16, 2012 at 2:58PM ESTDon't get me wrong, I ADORE BB and TDK and breathed a great sigh of relief when they came out because finally the whole world could see Batman the way I did.
But I want to stoic genious that's tough as nails too. I want the fantasy elements back. Give me Clayface and Man-Bat and Killer Croc!
I also think it's a shame that these films just aren't for kids. Batman was conceived as children's entertainment and Nolan has taken it too far into the adult world.
We've all greatly enjoyed Nolan's take on the character, but it's time to go back now and unleash the FUN of Batman.
drew Mark... all I'm discussing in the piece is the way the film itself is fixated on the notion of Batman dying. I'm not hinting at anything other than the way death runs through the movie as a concept, a potential. Trust me... the film has plenty of surprises in store for you.
July 16, 2012 at 4:19PM ESTAshyLarry81
July 16, 2012 at 1:55PM EST Reply to CommentCan't wait to see this! Watching a marathon of the trilogy followed by TDKR at my local AMC Thursday.
R.McMillen
July 16, 2012 at 5:24PM EST Reply to CommentThe fire has risen for months and is finally here! As is the hopeful answer to the question hounding my existence: http://voices.yahoo.com/the-dark-knight-rises-but-will-he-fall-11555052.html?cat=9
Hwat
July 16, 2012 at 5:57PM EST Reply to CommentSince I'm not going to see it, tell me how it ends!
Onthedl
July 16, 2012 at 6:50PM EST Reply to CommentLooks like another formulaic superhero movie to me.
JJ
July 16, 2012 at 10:05PM EST Reply to Comment"That's not exactly Errol Morris."
That's true.
Probably not Errol Flynn, either.
Bane
July 17, 2012 at 1:04AM EST Reply to CommentI hope the cinematography and IMAX aspects of this film will be discussed on the second viewing...
There is no other way to watch this film other than in IMAX. I was able to grab IMAX tickets the second weekend of release, and hope - and expect, (it is Drew after all) - to join in on the coming cinematography conversation then (two weeks late)...
drew Ha!
July 17, 2012 at 1:48AM ESTBut, no, we'll be posting the Second Look next Sunday night/Monday morning.
Baneus Drew,
July 24, 2012 at 9:02AM ESTIs that Second Look still on target for Sunday night/Monday morning?
Sean
July 17, 2012 at 1:15AM EST Reply to CommentAt least Drew doesn't bring his personal prejudices into his articles like his buddy Devin. Read this article on The Dark Knight Rises and you'll see what I mean:
http://badassdigest.com/2012/07/16/batman-fans-lose-their-minds-over-negative-dark-knight-rises-reviews/
I called him out on it and he dropped the ban hammer on me.
weed4504 There's absolutely nothing ridiculous about that article at all. All Devin is saying is that it's incredibly wrong-headed and immature to issue death threats to people that don't agree on a film.
July 20, 2012 at 5:40AM ESTDoes it really matter that he didn't love a movie the same as you did?
I put The Dark Knight as my number two of the entire decade, am a die-hard fan of the film, and a die-hard Nolan fan. But I just got back from Rises and can absolutely see what problems people may have with it and why they may give it 3/4 stars or whatever.
There's absolutely no argument to be made that it's okay to be an anonymous asshole online because someone didn't like the latest Batman film as much as you think they should.
batfan
July 17, 2012 at 4:42AM EST Reply to CommentSuch a beautiful review .. thanks for it ..
3 more days .. can't wait ..
dRadnev
July 17, 2012 at 5:35AM EST Reply to Comment"The Dark Knight Rises" everywhere on July 20, 2012.
Bulgaria - 27th. One more week of torment for me...
JoeK
July 17, 2012 at 8:22AM EST Reply to CommentCannot wait and seeing Wednesday. I had to skim but will come back to see your thoughts and look forward to the follow up pieces.
Grifter
July 17, 2012 at 12:33PM EST Reply to Comment@Brad - Actually it doesn't. Nolan had actually talked about considering bringing the Joker back, though not in the same capacity as before.
Something that naturally he did not allow after Heath's death.
Now I am guessing he would've had some minor role, perhaps, in the way of Scarecrow/Cillian Murphy made a apperance in The Dark Knight. Or not at all like that. Who knows really.
As long as it would fit the narrative I'd have no qualms with it. But really, this is a pointless discussion.
Grifter Gah. This was meant for the thread above. Oh well!
July 17, 2012 at 12:34PM ESTMoon Knight
July 17, 2012 at 6:44PM EST Reply to CommentSecond half of this video has preparations for batman premiere in London, Leicester Square. Check out the flaming bat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ajaPp3jQf8
JoeK
July 19, 2012 at 12:50AM EST Reply to Comment"In the first film, Bruce had to find the method he would use to fight the darkness. In the second film, he had to deal with the escalating madness that erupted from his efforts. And now, in this final film, he has to decide which is more important: his life, or the symbol he has created."
This is a great passage Drew. Just saw the movie and wanted to come back and read what you wrote. Looking forward to the follow up(s).
Weck
July 19, 2012 at 5:07PM EST Reply to CommentDamn. This is probably the best-written review of the dozens I've read over the last few days. Well done sir.
Melkay Agreed. By far.
July 20, 2012 at 12:13AM ESTroddy314
July 20, 2012 at 8:53AM EST Reply to Commentvery enjoyable ... bloated or not. Christian Bale's Batman voice isn't irritating in this iteration
Stormshadow4life
July 20, 2012 at 3:52PM EST Reply to CommentLOVED IT. Can't rank it with the other 2 yet, but it's the best experience I've had in the theater so far this year.
Bob
July 20, 2012 at 11:02PM EST Reply to CommentWould have loved to have seen the Joker cameo as the judge instead of Scarecrow. How great would it have been seeing him hold court atop that pile of books reigning down judgement on Gotham. Alas, what could have been... Still enjoyed the movie.
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