Tell us what you thought of 'The Dark Knight Rises'
Christopher Nolan's Batman finale hits theaters today
Christian Bale in "The Dark Knight Rises"
Credit: Warner Bros. Pictures
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OMGIT'SHEREOMGOMG! Yes, "The Dark Knight Rises" has arrived. Midnight screenings are happening right now. The box office is bursting at the seams and a trilogy is wrapping itself up. With style? With class? Well, you tell us. And feel free to rate the film above. I'll get to my thoughts in tomorrow's special edition podcast, but I'll be curious to see if anyone finds the film as structurally messy and thematically confused as I do.
Kristopher Tapley has covered the film awards landscape for over a decade. He founded In Contention in 2005. His work has also appeared in The New York Times, The Times of London and Variety. He begs you not to take any of this too seriously.
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Next 121 CommentsMatthew Starr
July 20, 2012 at 12:33AM EST Reply to CommentSend yourself a death threat? Just get Tesla's machine and perform the transporting man. That should solve that.
James
July 20, 2012 at 12:42AM EST Reply to CommentThat awful, huh? Damn. I wonder if Nolan needed another year to work out the script. I usually don't look at his films as unfinished or hurried, but this might be that case. I'm seeing tomorrow on IMAX. I'll try to keep my expectations leveled.
Matthew Starr
July 20, 2012 at 12:45AM EST Reply to CommentAll I can think of is how everyone thought this would be some sort of banner year for film and since then Prometheus/Spider Man/TDKR have all failed to impress and Gravity has been moved to 2013.
Here's to Paul Thomas Anderson!
SamuelM Has TDKR really failed to impress though? It seems to me that most of the negativity is in relation to how it's not as good as The Dark Knight but still pretty damn good.
July 20, 2012 at 12:59AM ESTJLPatt Not to mention... who was looking forward to the new "Spider-Man" that much? And anyway it got mostly favorable reviews.
July 20, 2012 at 1:02AM ESTMatthew Starr Ever since that first batch of select critics weighed in I have seen many mediocre to bad reviews for TDKR. So based on expectations it seems it has failed to impress quite a few.
July 20, 2012 at 1:10AM ESTEven disregarding Spider-Man, has this not been a pretty sub par first half for film so far?
JLPatt I dunno, doesn't strike me as that much worse than usual. Although I guess if we're purely talking about summer blockbuster fare, then yeah, it does seem a bit wanting.
July 20, 2012 at 1:18AM ESTJonnybon The second half of this year is going to be immense.
July 20, 2012 at 6:00AM ESTGustavo_HR Prometheus succeeded in exceeding my own sky-high expectations.
July 20, 2012 at 1:44PM ESTJames
July 20, 2012 at 12:54AM EST Reply to CommentThe 3rd installment curse lives on.
Kyle Fuller Agreed. The Return of the King being the exception.
July 20, 2012 at 3:22AM ESTJonnybon And The Bourne Ultimatum, Toy Story 3, Red, TGTBATU, The Last Crusade, etc. And hopefully The Dark Knight Rises...
July 20, 2012 at 5:58AM ESTSamuelM
July 20, 2012 at 12:56AM EST Reply to CommentI really loved it. Hugely satisfying. Not sure where it sits in relation to the other two Nolan Batfilms. It lacks the freshness of Begins and an electrifying central performance like Heath Ledger, but it has the best third act of all of them. It strikes me that there's a nice balance in that the first hour of Batman Begins is probably its strongest, the middle hour of The Dark Knight is its strongest, and the final hour of Rises was its strongest.
It suffers from a serious case of Nolan Expositionitis early, but once the main narrative kicks in properly (a bit after the stock exchange robbery) it really moves along and I was swept up in it. The final 45 minutes was perhaps the strongest stretch of all three films while the first half hour after the opening plane heist might be the weakest. Clunky as that exposition is, though, the payoffs in the last hour are so good that I was happy to forgive it.
It reminded me very much of Inception (no surprise there) in the way it was structured and particularly the way the beats of the finale played out. Nolan has become so adept at layering tension and cross cutting between action. It would be interesting to play the last 45 minutes of Inception alongside TDKR - the escalating tension, the seemingly all-is-lost twist (courtesy of Marion Cotillard), the decision of the central character to sacrifice themselves, the bittersweet success of the mission, followed by the hopeful denouement. The more I think about it, the more they mirror each other.
I've read a few reviews critical of Bane and the two confrontations he has with Batman. I thought Bane was terrifying and given just the right amount of motive to make sense while remaining enigmatic. I thought the two fight scenes were great, particularly the first one when the music cuts out and you really get to see Bane's brutality and superiority.
I can understand the feeling that there was a bit of murkiness with the themes, but it was all executed so well, i didn't mind. Overall, the best word to use for what I thought of it would be "satisfying".
JLPatt
July 20, 2012 at 12:57AM EST Reply to CommentI find it really interesting and a little funny people are surprised that this 165 minute film from Christopher Nolan is clunky and structurally messy. Have they seen his last two movies?
JLPatt Both of which I liked a lot, by the way.
July 20, 2012 at 12:57AM ESTKristopher Tapley The Dark Knight isn't anywhere near as clunky as this. Inception is tightly woven.
July 20, 2012 at 1:04AM ESTAlso, who said anything about being surprised?
SamuelM I know, right?
July 20, 2012 at 1:04AM ESTI loved Dark Knight, loved Inception, and as you can see above, loved Rises. All three have structural issues (everyone seems to have forgotten the weird sojourn into Hong Kong in The Dark Knight). But all three are hugely satisfying, unique, exciting movies.
Kristopher Tapley No one has "forgotten" anything. The Hong Kong sequence is often referred to when discussing the fat of TDK. It came up in the podcast with Anne, in fact.
July 20, 2012 at 1:05AM ESTJames Really? I love the Hong Kong sequence. It's the last 30 mins regarding boat stuff where the film starts to lose my interest. Not much, but a little. Then it quickly gets it back for it's conclusion.
July 20, 2012 at 1:17AM ESTKristopher Tapley I can defend all the elements of TDK that feel extraneous, but that doesn't change the fact that they feel extraneous. I've never come to an easy solution on addressing its structural issues. I love the ferry boat sequence.
July 20, 2012 at 1:19AM ESTSamuelM I didn't mean you specifically, Kris. I was being a bit hyperbolic, 'forgotten' probably wasn't the right word.
July 20, 2012 at 1:20AM ESTI think a lot of the clunkiness of The Dark Knight is covered up by the presence of the Joker. Not just Ledger's performance but the way the narrative hinges on him gives the plot a propulsion that TDKR doesn't have in its early stages.
JLPatt I've only ever seen "Dark Knight" and "Inception" once each, so my impressions are based off my very initial, visceral experiences with each. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't bored for many moments throughout both pictures. Too much exposition, too many convoluted side plots that are hard to follow. They seemed to work in fits and starts. I also had issues with the sound in both films, something I'm hearing a lot about with this new one.
July 20, 2012 at 1:24AM ESTd2 Inception was nicely edited....but the entire film felt like a first act. Almost 100% exposition and little pay off. Have I never seen someone act in a dream? There's plenty of cartoons that have people fake-waking into dreams. Yah, never to Inception's scale, but what's the difference?
July 20, 2012 at 2:36PM ESTAaron McMahon The Hong Kong sequence is extraneous but has more spectacular Imax photography than anything in TDKR
July 22, 2012 at 2:58AM ESTvinny
July 20, 2012 at 1:16AM EST Reply to Commenthere's a review I wrote. While it has some flaws, I still found it a magnificent ending to the trilogy.
http://wetalkaboutmovies.com/2012/07/20/the-dark-knight-rises/
Will
July 20, 2012 at 1:23AM EST Reply to CommentI'm at about a B- or C+, but I've never been a devotee of the series, so I don't think I'm necessarily a good indication of what a lover of the Nolan Bat franchise would think.
I thought there was too much going on, frankly, and characters would disappear fr long stretches of time, including Batman bizarrely enough. I enjoyed JGL and Cotillard and Hathaway, so it didn't bother me per se that Batman was on the periphery for so much of the movie's second act, but I kept wondering what someone expecting to see Christian Bale in a batsuit fighting would think of how sidelined he is for much of this.
SPOILER I did enjoy the end reveal, mainly because I'm a sucker for a female villain, and I liked seeing Cottilard in that mode. I think it would have been way more effective if that character had been set up better. Also, I'd want to see the sequel to this movie that follows JGL after he finds the cave.
Didn't understand Tom Hardy a lot. Sounded like Darth Vader through a snorkel.
Kristopher Tapley "I think it would have been way more effective if that character had been set up better."
July 20, 2012 at 1:25AM ESTCompletely agree.
Will Oh ... Also, god help me but I found the Man of Steel teaser really compelling. I know that a good teaser isn't a difficult thing to cut for pretty much any movie, but it made me much more interested than I had been.
July 20, 2012 at 1:26AM ESTArchie "I think it would have been way more effective if that character had been set up better." Another +1 from me, thinkin about it maybe that's why I'm a bit let down by her. I just crave for more.
July 20, 2012 at 1:36AM ESTI also struggled with Bane's voice. I don't know if I should blame cinema's nifty 7.1 Dolby or sound-mixing, but swear to god, everytime he's speaking I literally searching from which ends it came from. I'm still not sure til the movie ended.
Will @Archie I thought Cotillard was effective with what she was given. I just don't think the reveal at the end packs the punch that it should because the script never finds a way to make her presence as 'Miranda Tate' feel organic. She always feels slightly extraneous, and the romance sub plot between her and Bale comes out of nowhere and doesn't particularly lead anywhere after they consummate. If te movie had done a better job of making Miranda seem like Bruce Wayne's salvation, maybe extract her from the over complicated business dealings of Wayne Industries and have their relationship come about in a different way, the emotional beats would hit.
July 20, 2012 at 1:43AM ESTKyle Fuller Completely agree with you. As someone who isn't versed or doesn't necessarily have emotional stakes in the Batman franchise, I'm probably not the best person to review the film in terms of how it satisfies. As a general movie goer, I felt completely unsatisfied
July 20, 2012 at 3:24AM ESTd2 So far, I spotted bit parts by Matthew Modine, Tom Conti, Desmond Harrington (Dexter), Daniel Sunjata (Rescue Me, The Bronx Is Burning), William Devane, Cillian Murphy and a certain Oscar-nominee from a Best Picture from the 90s.
July 20, 2012 at 2:39PM ESTI may have spotted, or rather, heard another. Was Bane's voice dubbed by Sir Sean Connery? If so, "I'm waiting to be impressed."
I'm so excited for the next installment of Oscar Talk!!! Can't freakin wait!
Archie
July 20, 2012 at 1:26AM EST Reply to CommentIt's been more than 1.5 days since caught it at the first public midnite screening here in NZ, so yeah it has settled for a while.
Should agree with you regarding the narrative structure. It was all over the place, especially in the second act. I could recall my mind was wandering several times around then. But boy oh boy, what a save by the third act. I'm not as bugged thematically I guess, I think it weaves pretty well as a trilogy.
Performance side, should say really impressed by Anne Hathaway. Gorgeous, witty, and almost effortlessly. Michael Caine was as excellent as ever. Bale, JGL, Hardy were all reliable as always. A bit let down by Cotillard.
That's all I'm allowed to say FOR NOW I guess. All in all, very satisfied with how it comes out. And gosh now everyone can move on with our lives!
Looking forward for your indepth thoughts tomorrow!
Kenny Miles
July 20, 2012 at 1:50AM EST Reply to CommentKris,
As much as I loved TDKR, and I did love this film, it is structurally a mess! I didnt have the heart to tell all my Facebook friends this and gave it a solid, zero complaint rave. Loved the overall technical aspects of it. In terms of Oscar, I think Marigold Hotel has a better chance receiving a Best Picture nomination then TDKR. None of the pundits talk about this, but it has the pedigree to score nods especially if the anticipated films in later months fail to deliver.
smith & wesson Apparently complaining about every new film and TV show is the new in-thing. If so, count me out. This film was a much, much better film than The Avengers.
July 20, 2012 at 2:45PM ESTHere's the thing. People have such high expectations of Christopher Nolan, and mediocre expectations of Joss Whedon. With Whedon's film, people started off saying "Good enough" --- which proved to be exactly what it needed. People accept "good enough" as gold these days.
When people see TDKR, they're like "Not good enough." -- which apparently means it is the worst modern superhero film to date.
People are fickle. Not one of our better qualities.
But wait, maybe people are turning on Batman, just as he intended in TDK (2008)....if so, get a life. It shall not imitate art.
Patrick @SMITH & WESSON
July 20, 2012 at 4:29PM ESTPeople like you see a critic's complaint and immediately think that all they're saying is it's "not good enough". Your thinking is very one-sided here. I'll just end by rephrasing your first sentence: "Apparently praising every new film and TV show is the new in-thing."
CaptainCanada
July 20, 2012 at 2:31AM EST Reply to CommentJust got back from the midnight showing.
All in all, I'd call it a fitting conclusion to the trilogy, and likely the best new movie I've seen so far this year (admittedly not a huge amount of competition). Nolan is skilled at cinematic sleight of hand, but I will say that I guessed pretty much the entire climax/denouement midway through, after thinking about how Alfred might reappear -- there's a whole series of foreshadowing pieces scattered throughout that all slide into place pretty easily. I don't think that really takes away, though, because it still has surprises, and a story that plays fair with the audience always runs that risk (plus one reveal that anybody who knows anything about the legacy of Ra's al Ghul will have guessed long before).
Perhaps the thing I most liked about this one is how it takes apart the morals of the ending of the second movie.
I've seen some people who have been very critical of Nolan's female characters, and while I'm not wholly in agreement with that sentiment, I will say that I think Hathaway's Selina Kyle is easily the most interesting lady in any of his movies.
Kristopher Tapley "Perhaps the thing I most liked about this one is how it takes apart the morals of the ending of the second movie."
July 20, 2012 at 2:40AM ESTOne of the better and more complete ideas in the film, I agree.
James
July 20, 2012 at 2:49AM EST Reply to CommentI guess I'll have to see this for myself. While Memento is still my favorite of his, I think he continues to progress as a filmmaker. He's incredibly ambitious and that's respectful in it's own right. He can hardly be called lazy, but perhaps this time his ambition has caught up with him. Shame it had to happen to a flawed, but terrific Batman series. I'm hoping he goes with a low-key premise for his next flick and vary back and forth cause usually w/e he's offering in the summer is better than most.
Kyle Fuller
July 20, 2012 at 3:19AM EST Reply to CommentAs someone who isn't a comic book/graphic novel reader, and unfamiliar with much of the Dark Knight legend, I thought that the film was almost painful to sit through minus a few strong elements. I enjoyed TDK but here I felt almost nothing was of interest. I agree that Hathaway is the standout, although slightly underused in my opinion. And I don't understand all of the hype regarding the last 30 minutes. My pulse wasn't moved at all. If anything, I felt like the last 30 of Amazing Spiderman was more tense and visually dynamic. I'm glad Nolan is done with the Batman legend and can move on to something new and hopefully more in line with The Prestige, Memento and Inception.
js
July 20, 2012 at 4:28AM EST Reply to CommentI am just in awe of how bad it is and I cannot understand all this praise. Terrible actions scenes, sloppy writing, zero tension, and a totally incoherent mess of storytelling. Let's just call it Batman and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.
jon kim True that. Even if we accept the premise that Bruce Wayne/Batman became a recluse and abandoned his crime fighting crusade for eight years, which frankly doesn't feel authentic or honest to the character, there were just too many inconsistencies and leaps of logic in the story that made no sense and were never addressed. These inconsistencies made for a piece of very muddled storytelling and a frustratingly boring movie.
July 25, 2012 at 7:43PM ESTFor example, how can Bruce even continue to be Batman, much less knock any thugs around as he is shown doing, if he has no cartilage left in his knees and is suffering from an assortment of very serious physical ailments? In my view, it would have made more sense for Nolan to have avoided any mention of these issues in the first place, instead of asking us to suspend our disbelief.
We get that Nolan wants to establish the fact that Bruce is physically fragile, but the very extent of his past injuries appear to preclude Bruce from even being able to function as Batman, even with the very impractical leg brace that he is shown to put on. But never mind. I was willing to give Nolan the benefit of the doubt based on past performance.
Where the movie really went off the tracks for me, though, was after Bane took over Gotham and put Bruce in the hole in the ground. This is where I really got lost.
What is the point of Bane trying to take over Gotham and incite a revolution if he declares in the same breath that he is just going to nuke the place after 90 days? Better to just come in and blow it up, no?
The absurdity of this premise is illustrated when Joseph Gordon-Levitt's John Blake attempts to save the orphans by fleeing across one of the bridges and is turned back by the military near the end of the movie. Blake is frustrated and upset that the soldiers don't just let him through. Then the father or pastor of the orphanage who was on the bus with Blake and the orphans says that trying to escape doesn't make any difference anyway, since the place is going to blow, and the blast radius is six miles. Exactly! The nuclear set-up essentially robs Blake and the actions of the other characters of any urgency or credibility.
If Gotham is going to be blown up after 90 days, why would people take the time to convene kangaroo courts to decide whether or not offenders of Bane's new order should be exiled or sentenced to death? Wouldn't everybody be spending their time looking for a secret way out of Gotham? Even if we accept the fact that Gotham's populace decides to convene kangaroo courts in the face of the fact that their city will go up in a mushroom cloud after three months, how does Matthew Modine's Deputy Commissioner Foley manage to keep his house during all this social turmoil? (Remember the scene of Gordon going to visit Modine and talking to him outside his door, after presumably ringing the doorbell? Ridiculous!)
I suppose the 90 day time limit was to give Bruce time in the screenplay to rehabilitate himself from the back injury that he suffered at the hands of Bane, but this is also improbable. How many people have you met who can come back from a serious back injury after 90 days while being stuck in a hole in the ground in some Middle Eastern country?
And how much sense did it make for Bane to take the time to transport Bruce halfway around the world, leave him there, and then come back to Gotham to continue his reign of terror?
I understand that Nolan wanted to dramatize how Bruce needed to pick himself back up again after having fallen so low, but the execution here was just horribly mangled, especially since the whole Middle Eastern hole in the ground scenario managed to open up enormous plot holes.
I'm sure I wasn't the only one wondering how Bruce managed to get back to Gotham after climbing out of the pit. He had no money, he had been bankrupted, Alfred was gone, and Gotham was allegedly sealed off from the rest of the world by that time, right?
Even assuming that Bruce found some money to get back to Gotham from that hole in the ground, how did he manage to get all his gear back? Lucius Fox and company were all under Bane's martial law by that time, and Alfred was already gone. Additionally, if Bane already knew Bruce was Batman, wouldn't Bane and Tali and the League of Shadows have raided Wayne Manor and discovered the Bat Cave and taken all of Bruce's stuff by then as well? None of this makes any sense.
Nolan could have solve this problem by simply having Bane imprison Bruce somewhere closer, maybe even back in his the Bat Cave or something. That sort of irony would have been delicious. Nolan should also have kept Alfred in the movie, instead of having him disappear halfway through. If there was anybody who could have helped Bruce pick himself back up again, it would have been Alfred. Then they could have reprised that very moving scene in Batman Begins where Bruce asks Alfred if he has given up on him yet, where Alfred's response is "Nevah!"
In summary, the Nolans had the kernel of a very good story idea for DKR: the desire of the League of Shadows in the form of Talia al Ghul and Bane to exact vengeance on Bruce for having killed Ras al Ghul and thwarted the league's plans for Gotham in Batman Begins. From the point of view of the league and Talia, they would have wanted to devastate Bruce in every way imaginable, financially, physically, spiritually, etc.
Under this scenario, the attack on the stock market to wipe out Bruce financially, Bane's physical pummeling of Batman, and Talia's seduction of Bruce and her infiltration and ultimate takeover of Wayne Enterprises makes sense. Unfortunately, the Nolans never followed the line of this plot through to the end, and they didn't seem to have thought through how Bruce could overcome all this adversity other than by climbing out of a hole in the ground.
The movie would have been stronger had it established and revealed the motivations of Bane and Talia early on, because then we would have been able to contrast Bruce's apparent demise with his eventual rebirth.
mcnulty32
July 20, 2012 at 4:29AM EST Reply to CommentI am in awe of how terrible it was. Horrible action scenes, no tension, terrible writing, and a completely incoherent mess.
Al
July 20, 2012 at 4:37AM EST Reply to CommentSpoilers:
I think it was saved by its final act. Major problems would be the unnecessary dramatic speeches at the beginning.
Not that they wouldn't work with the film, but they weren't needed when they happened, and didn't seem to make sense with what was going on around them. Like the kid wondering if Batman would come back. Why do you need him back? There seems to be little need for him...
Why was Alfred an expert on Bane, and why were people teetering back and forth with their concern about him? Some times they are, some times they aren't. Why didn't anyone seem to know where Bane's hideout was if Gordon came from there.
The final act is great, and did provide madness, tension and (some) thoughts on theme, but nothing compared to Dark Knight at all. Great staging though. Some nice brutality and memorable moments.
Best scene for me was Wayne coming out of the prison. A little hooky sure, but it still had me.
Finally, was Gordon the only person in the whole city who didn't know who Batman was?!
McRaj
July 20, 2012 at 5:18AM EST Reply to CommentBEN. FUCKING. MENDELSOHN. How did I not know he was in this?
As for the movie - it was pretty bad. Gotta admire the ambition to go big (which it certainly did) and to weave in political allegory (which it certainly did) but it was just a mess storytelling-wise and I can't really remember any great visual sequences. Still a pretty good night at the movies with friends though and better than most blockbuster fare.
Yohan
July 20, 2012 at 8:08AM EST Reply to CommentIt is not a perfect movie, but it is a pefect ending for the trilogy.
I found the best thing about it is not the action sequences which are good, but Caine's performance. His line saying that he took a holiday hoping to find Bruce with a new beginning was great. It brought tears to my eyes.
The film gets bogged down somewhere in the middle, but I thought that Nolan did a great job with the first hour that I didn't realizw that an hour almost passed when Batman first appeared in this movie. It is only natural that the movie felt long as it IS a long movie. I entered at 12 noon and when I went out right after Nolan's name showed up it was on 2.47 on my watch.
The thing that kind of ruined the movie for me was the knowledge that Cotillard was actually Thalia and that made the surprise effect at the end lose its impact. I didn't have any problems with Hardy's boice at all and English is only my second language so I kind of feel that the critic who tried to make a joke by sauing it was british like Mckellen trying to do a Patrick Stewart line or something like that as an attempt to find holes in the movie while trying to be witty at the same time.
It wasn't perfect, but I honestly felt the Amazing Spider-man felt longer in somebof its sequences compared to TDKR. (had a great time watching TASM btw and TDKR in my opinion is a better movie. As for comparison with the Avengers. That one was light and enjoyable, this one is a bit more serious while still enjoyable. I also think the Avengers is great though I almost fell asleep in in first 40mins.)
THE Diego Ortiz About Talia: The reveal came so late in the movie that I was actually surprised when it happened. I thought "Geez. No surprise turn yet. Looks like it's not going to happen."
July 20, 2012 at 12:36PM ESTThe movie was awesome. Yes. Too much shit happens in the first part of the movie (Kinda makes me wonder if THE MOVIE NEEDED TO BE LONGER) But if you miss something, it's not gonna screw up the rest of the movie for you.
But the finale was great! Quickest 2:45. I want to watch this movie again.
smartazjb0y
July 20, 2012 at 11:08AM EST Reply to CommentI was too engrossed to really notice the structure of the narrative but it was definitely....long. Also, since it was predicted a while back about the 2 major spoilers about the 2 major characters, those reveals didn't have TOO much impact on me.
But honestly, the ending was amazing. I'd say the third act alone puts this on par with TDK, though the Joker was easily the better villain.
Matt
July 20, 2012 at 11:30AM EST Reply to CommentI'm sort of torn. My initial reaction fell almost exactly in line with what everyone else is saying. The narrative is a convoluted, messy, amalgamation of Knightfall, The Dark Knight Returns, and No Man's Land (to name a few), and it seemed like Nolan never really found a good balance between the plot threads he borrowed from each of the three novels. That said, the more I've thought about it, and the more I've discussed it with other people, the more I've realized that it was such a whirlwind of a film, despite the run-time, that there are things I definitely missed. So, yeah...mixed. I think I need to see it again.
skasis_paradigm
July 20, 2012 at 12:38PM EST Reply to CommentCan you please edit out the death threat joke at the end in light of what happened today? It's inappropriate considering the circumstances of the shooting this morning.
Kristopher Tapley Done. An unfortunate coincidence, to say the least.
July 20, 2012 at 6:31PM ESTskasis_paradigm Thanks. You wrote it 10 minutes before it happened, and was obviously a tragic happenstance. I appreciate you taking the time. :)
July 20, 2012 at 11:52PM ESTAlex L.
July 20, 2012 at 1:37PM EST Reply to CommentI understand everybody's backlash towards it and why someone would find the story to be convoluted. Watching the movie was interesting. I feel like I'm watching three different movies put into one. But I like the feeling. I felt an escalation. It was something entirely odd and foreign but for some reason it worked for me.
First I'd like to adress that everyfuckingbody did an amazing job with their performances. Marion Cotillard is obviously the weakest but she did best with what she had. I never had any doubts about Anne Hathaway. It was Michael Caine that did it for me.
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
The ending. The last hour or so is honestly, for me the best directing Christopher Nolan has done. Right from when Bane announces the lie that Gordon created, it was perfection. As a Bat-Fan I may be the target for Nolan to emotionally punch me in the throat, but I'm also saying as an aspiring filmmaker and objectively, that I was literally ugly crying with Alfred's scene at the gravestones.
Also, since I don't think anybody has brought it up, and I don't want an answer like, "the movie isn't that good anyway..." I just want a simple yes or no interpretation of whether you think Bruce is dead or alive.
Patrick SPOILERS
July 20, 2012 at 1:58PM ESTI think he's alive. The only hallucinatory scene (the prison cell) in the entire movie ends with a fade out, so to argue for consistency, every other scene that does not fade out is real.
On a side note, did anyone else find the new music to be inappropriate at most times? I found that the specific moments that I enjoyed the most were when motifs from the previous two films kicked in, and when there was no music.
CaptainCanada I don't see how people could interpret him as being dead at the end. It's pretty clear he's alive; we get multiple scenes from the POVs of various supporting characters indicating how/that he did it.
July 20, 2012 at 3:46PM ESTDave I Also the reveal to Lucius how Bruce Wayne had fixed the autopilot six months prior.
July 20, 2012 at 6:02PM ESTAlex L. One could interpret that Alfred is just imagining Bruce just as he did earlier on in the film.
July 20, 2012 at 6:25PM ESTCaptainCanada When combined with Lucius finding out that the autopilot actually did work and the string of pearls being missing, that interpretation becomes a big stretch. Nolan's intent is pretty clear. Any one of those three, sure (well, maybe not the autopilot one), but all three together?
July 20, 2012 at 6:28PM ESTTHE Diego Ortiz
July 20, 2012 at 2:47PM EST Reply to CommentKris. It was messy (the first act) but not confusing. Last act was wonderful.
Kristopher Tapley Didn't say "confusing" I said "confused."
July 20, 2012 at 5:05PM ESTEdwin
July 20, 2012 at 3:28PM EST Reply to CommentHopefully people who haven't seen the movie yet are cautious enough to avoid reading the comments section of an article discussing it, but just in case, I suppose I add a disclaimer out of courtesy:
****SPOILERS WILL BE DISCUSSED HERE*****
I feel like being a lifelong Batman fan and knowing a lot about the comics actually worked as a disadvantage while watching this movie, because quite frankly, I thought this movie was predictable as hell. Again, I'm sure that's only because I was familiar with the characters and the comic book storyling beforehand, but for one, if it wasn't blatantly obvious to any self-professed Batman geek that Marion Cotillard was actually playing Talia from her very first scene in the movie, then I would have to ask if you were really paying attention. And I might argue that even for people who weren't familiar with the character of Talia going into the movie, the "Miranda Tate" character made absolutely no sense and served no real function until she was revealed to be Talia, so I'm sure it wasn't all that difficult to figure out that there was going to be a twist involving her. And once it is revealed, she's killed off so quickly afterwards that her effect isn't even given time to sink in, thus making her entire character nothing more than an opportunity for a plot twist that truthfully wasn't necessary for any other reason than to throw fanboys a bone by including another classic villain from Batman lore.
Speaking of which, I guess it was amusing to see Scarecrow again, but to me it just reeked of fanboy pandering. There was absolutely no reason for his character to be there. The whole "court" scenario was ridiculous in the first place, but then to have Jonathan Crane be the judge? Utterly pointless.
I think that this movie suffers from trying too hard to please Batman fans. Another example: was it really necessary for Ra's Al Ghul to appear as a hallucination to Bruce Wayne only to explain something that later turned out to be false? It's as if Nolan said, "How could we work a Ra's Al Ghul cameo into the movie?" When he first appeared, I remembering thinking for a second that I actually WANTED him to be real. It would have destroyed the movie's attempt at a more realistic approach, but by that point, I think it would have been the most daring thing to do, and since that was still early enough into the movie to change the course of the narrative, I ultimately think that, regardless of its implausibility, it would have been a more effective "twist" than having Talia reveal herself at the very end of the movie and then die 10 minutes (it may have even been less than that?) later.
I also have a serious problem with the reveal of Robin at the end. It has nothing to do with wanting it to be a faithful interpretation of his character in the comics, because I actually don't demand faithfulness to source material at all in these movies, as long as it works in context of the story Nolan is telling. But I simply don't believe this worked in that context. Again, I can't help but feel that it was merely a way to throw a bone to fanboys and potentially keep the franchise going. I would have been much more impressed had John Blake simply become in charge of the home for orphaned children rather than becoming Gotham's next vigilante hero. And really, where are they going with this? Is there seriously going to be a Robin spin-off movie? I don't mean to judge something before it's even been announced, but I am extremely doubtful that it would work. If they go in that direction, then it seems like it would be nothing more than an opportunity to use more villains from the Batman franchise. There's no more story to tell here, and I think they'd have to really stretch in order to come up with a captivating story for a brand-new Robin in a post-Batman Gotham.
I also agree with the sentiment expressed by Kris and several of the previous people who commented that it was structurally a mess. It feels simultaneously overlong and rushed, which I realize seems like an oxymoron, but it's true. It's rushed because none of the characters, situations, or plot twists are given room to breathe or even really take full effect. Yet it's overlong because the movie keeps piling on more and more. The solution would be to simply cut out some of the characters and plot twists and instead focus on actually fleshing out the necessary ones. Matthew Modine's character was pretty useless other than to serve as a minor foil for John Blake in the beginning. He could have been cut out. And could someone please explain why Juno Temple's character was even there? They did literally NOTHING with her.
I won't even get into the plot holes, because that would just feel like nitpicking at this point, but let me just express that I was very disappointed in this movie. I'd give both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight very strong ratings, either very strong A-'s or light A's. But this one would get a C+ at best, and more likely a straight C. It doesn't drop the ball completely like Superman III, Spider-Man 3, or X-Men: The Last Stand, so I'll at least give it credit for that, but I thoroughly disagree with those who are saying that it's a perfect conclusion to the trilogy. In fact, I'd argue that it was an unnecessary movie altogether. Not a bad one, per se, but not needed. What we're left with as the image of Batman at the end of the movie is that he's a symbol who is willing to make the necessary sacrifices to achieve the sort of heroism needed for Gotham...which, if you'll recall, was the exact point made at the end of The Dark Knight, where it was done much more eloquently and ambiguously. The only thing this movie actually added to the saga was that Bruce Wayne no longer has to be Batman because he's found happiness, and Robin can take over for him now. It essentially took 3 hours to say that.
Oh, and just one more criticism while I'm on the subject of Bruce Wayne finding happiness: do they really expect me to believe that after 8 years of mourning and brooding over Rachel's death, he casually meets Selina Kyle a few times where there isn't even much communication between them, and then takes it upon himself to fake his own death and leave the country with her? That was a VERY rushed and quite unbelievable romance angle.
I know this was long and mostly came across as a rant, and I feel I've slightly exaggerated my opinion of the movie, since again, I didn't think it was bad. It did have some good elements, but ultimately my point is that things were thrown together in a rushed and often unfitting fashion that too frequently settled for fanboy gasp moments, and I genuinely believe the series would have been better off ending with The Dark Knight.
CaptainCanada I don't see what the issue with having Scarecrow there is. He's a criminal in Gotham, Bane released all the criminals, having him show up as a judge is a great little character bit (and very much the sort of thing a comic would do, but often doesn't happen in films with the need to keep the number of actors down).
July 20, 2012 at 3:52PM EST"which, if you'll recall, was the exact point made at the end of The Dark Knight"
I disagree there. The movie is pointedly a rebuttal to the ending of "The Dark Knight", showing how peace based on a lie is doomed to fail, and truth is the only answer. The city gets the hero it really needs, Batman, instead of the false hero of Harvey Dent.
Since Nolan has said he's done with the films, the Robin character is just to show that someone will carry on Bruce's work in this universe.
Zack "Another example: was it really necessary for Ra's Al Ghul to appear as a hallucination to Bruce Wayne only to explain something that later turned out to be false?"
July 20, 2012 at 4:00PM EST[Bad French accent] I am a figment of your imagination, Bruce. How could I know if you did not?
Edwin "I disagree there. The movie is pointedly a rebuttal to the ending of "The Dark Knight", showing how peace based on a lie is doomed to fail, and truth is the only answer. The city gets the hero it really needs, Batman, instead of the false hero of Harvey Dent."
July 20, 2012 at 4:15PM ESTFair point, but strictly as a matter of preference, I liked the moral ambiguity of how The Dark Knight ended. I understand that this could be seen as a rebuttal, but I think it's debatable whether or not it was a question that needed an answer.
And Nolan may be done with the films, but do you really think that means the series is completely done? He could still executive produce a future installment, by the way. Just because he's not directing them doesn't mean he won't be involved somehow in order to give it some degree of official continuity, like Tim Burton did with Batman Forever. I know nothing has been announced yet so its' all speculation right now, but I somehow don't see Warner Bros. letting this franchise go so easily. A Robin movie may very well happen in the near future.
Or, of course, they could end Man of Steel with a cameo by Robin, thus setting up a Justice League franchise. I intended this as a joke as I was typing it, but...well, who knows, really?
Also, Zack, I laughed out loud at your comment. Great reference there.
Dave I I will say I liked the movie more than you did. I also was fine with the length. I thought the Marion character was fine, and that the tie to the first movie worked. As for Selina Kyle, I bought that. She was the only person he really knew other than Alfred and Lucius since he found out that Rachel had moved on, and she proved him right that there was more to her and then ultimately saved his life. Why NOT take a risk with her? That said...
July 20, 2012 at 5:50PM ESTI think they should have made a simpler story and focused more on the details. It was not that I thought those were BAD, it was just that I would have liked to get to know them a bit more. I would have liked more of Bane's motive and a psychological battle upfront rather than you getting most all of it as a big reveal, both in Bane beating up Batman and Marion's big reveal. Still, most of that actually worked for me, I just think it could have been better.
As for Robin? No, they were implying that John Blake would be the new Batman, hence taking up the role even though the former one had apparently died and all that about how Batman was more a symbol than one person. If WB does go with a Robin movie, as a spin-off from this or otherwise, I suspect it will tank, and since they're going to reboot the series anyway why bother?
Anyway, good review.
-Cheers
Dave I @Edwin, two points. First, I agree about this being a rebuttal to TDK. I disagree with that being a question that might not need an answer though. I think you had to have resolution about that. It is an incomplete story if people believe the hero is a murderer. So this just about HAD to be his redemption.
July 20, 2012 at 5:59PM ESTSecond, as for a Robin movie? I highly doubt it. Nothing against Robin, just that I do not think it would work, especially without Nolan continuing this vision. Besides, remember the last movie we had a Robin character? Yes WB, this means you.
@Zack, I agree (I think) with your point/reference. Bruce cannot know what he does not know. However, knowing Bane's link to Ra's it made sense that he'd hallucinate their shared master whilst only being able to come to a conclusion based on the limited information he had about Bane and that situation.
-Cheers
Alex L. Yea I definitely think that the movie sets up John Blake's character as an heir to the batman legacy. I mean he steps on the platform and rises. Thus "The Dark Knight Rises."
July 20, 2012 at 6:38PM ESTjon kim I agree with every word you said.
July 25, 2012 at 7:57PM ESTjon kim @Edwin I agree with every word you said.
July 25, 2012 at 7:58PM ESTZack
July 20, 2012 at 3:50PM EST Reply to CommentI enjoyed it a lot. I didn't think it was as good as "The Dark Knight" simply by virtue of its Ledgerlessness, but I thought it was probably the best possible way to end things. I also liked (not getting into spoilers) how Nolan managed to leave some loose ends, but not in a ridiculous, I-just-watched-a-three-hour trailer way.
And on another note, I'd heard rumblings of the movie having reactionary politics, but I really didn't get that vibe, which was nice.
Edwin I was definitely pleased that the political themes of the movie were not overbearing. Bane's attack on the stock market didn't seem to be so much political as simply a way to create chaos, much like the Joker did in The Dark Knight. I didn't think that there was an Occupy Wall Street message in there at all. So yeah, I definitely think some people are really exaggerating the political themes.
July 20, 2012 at 4:24PM ESTSJG Regarding the "politics", it helps that all the stuff about Wall Street, or popular uprisings, etc., were all just red herrings for other things... Daggett trying to seize Wayne Enterprises, Thalia seeking vengeance for her father, etc. None of it actually had to do with the politics of Batman's universe, which kind of makes it hard to suggest it had anything to do with real-world politics.
July 21, 2012 at 1:01AM ESTSJG Oh, and SPOILERS ABOVE. I'm assuming people on this thread will have seen the movie, but sorry if not and you read my comment.
July 21, 2012 at 1:02AM ESTJonnybon
July 20, 2012 at 4:29PM EST Reply to CommentAbsolutely phenomenal. Much better than The Dark Dark in my opinion, and the best of the young year, though I haven't yet seen Beasts. I think this is Nolan's best yet, followed by Inception.
Dave I
July 20, 2012 at 5:34PM EST Reply to CommentHaving just seen it . . . I liked it a lot. A few spoilers in case anybody actual reads this, much less reads it without having seen the movie. It had a lot of build up, yet I was fine with that. Marion Cotillard was a nice character. Considering I am a definitive non-fan of Catwoman, I thought Anne Hathaway did an amazing job with the role.
The movie was not perfect though. It was not quite as good as The Dark Knight in part because it did not seem we had the mental chess match between hero and villain that we did in the last movie. However, I can appreciate this movie and the type of conflict for what it was. I also thought the John Blake as (spoiler) "Robin" was lame. It was an unnecessary nod to Dick Grayson. It also projected some things a bit too obviously (John Blake & Gordon's ultimate end points in the movie in particular). Also, Batman's triumphant return to beat Bane would have been nice if he had a plan other than beat him up BUT hit his mask! It would have also been nice at the beginning to see Bruce reconnect with Lucius rather than having it happen, and his amends with Alfred at the end rather than the epilogue fairwell. I would also say that having some of it take place in broad daylight just seemed wrong. Not because Batman has to be a creature of the night, but rather because you could see everything in a more clinical fashion. It was kind of like how Alien went from being all concealed and let your imagination do a lot of the work while subsequent movies had man-in-suit quasi-martial arts.
There were also a few other things that really worked for me. I would say the scenes with Michael Cain and Morgan Freeman were very touching. You have great actors whose characters' relationships had a lot of gravity built up. The movie did a great job of tying it together with the first movie. The continuation of Ra's al Ghul's storyline was a pretty logical one yet I was not expecting it. The main criticism I've read is that it's too long for some, however their boring is to me more epic and built tension.
Really, the main criticism I have is that to me it was not as good as The Dark Knight. Strip away the hype, and you had a more psychologically engaging enemy. While it was great to go the opposite direction, and while Hardy did great job with a stare and being a physically superior opponent, it was not quite as compelling a character. Although, his boss and backstory made up for it. So I still want to see it again, much like Memento, Inception, or any other Christopher Nolan movie.
-Cheers
Dave I I also thought the ending was a brave move that I wish the comics would have the guts to do and stick with. Either way, and yes spoiler alert, but having Batman die (which obviously they did not, but had that been the way they did it), or having him actually hang up the cowl and move past the psychological scar from his parents' death and move on for good only to let somebody else take on the role, would have been a great decision. It was a great exit and swan song for the character, and the trilogy.
July 20, 2012 at 5:37PM EST-Cheers
/3rt
July 20, 2012 at 7:29PM EST Reply to CommentFour Stars. The Dark Knight Rises isn't free of fault but no other rating feels appropriate. Nolan deserves a nomination for direction and the film deserves a nomination for picture. I do not believe they deserve a win in either category but should be rightfully acknowledged.
Kyle Fuller I could not disagree more strongly with this statement. To me, If the film is nominated for either award, it would prove that the Academy was rewarding it and Nolan because the last film wasn't rewarded. It simply isn't as strong of an effort as The Dark Knight (which I also think is over rated) and has far too many narrative problems, and a lack of necessary suspense or drive to deserve Picture of Director noms. Unless there are 8/5 other nominees that aren't more worthy for the rest of the year, which is unlikely, I can't see any academy member writing this down in the top half of their ballot.
July 21, 2012 at 1:13AM EST/3rt Relax Kyle Nolan did the impossible and made a movie I can actually love from him, I'm not fan of his overwrought and vanilla approach to most things that have others convinced he's the most important filmmaker since prime Spielberg. This is my favorite of the Nolan Batman movies and I'll still defend the Burton ones and pay no mind to anyone can't appreciate anything those films accomplished. A nomination to me isn't enough for the people who want to see this films take home Oscars but I think it's only right to include them.
July 21, 2012 at 10:40AM ESTJason
July 21, 2012 at 1:05AM EST Reply to CommentThe one thing the ending says to me that I haven't really heard anyone address is that it is clearly open-ended enough for another sequel with Bale. Something like "Blake trains in the Batcave, puts on a Nightwing-style outfit and gets in over his head necessitating Wayne to come out of retirement" or something along that line.
Yes, Warners is talking reboot and Nolan says no mas but Bale is quoted as saying if Nolan came back with a good story he'd consider it. And let's be honest, right now the idea of doing another one after a few years of busting your ass on this one would be the last thing Nolan would consider. Three years from now when he's had time to mull over some ideas, take a little time off and we'll see. Say this movie out earns TDK, his next movie is a Heaven's Gate kind of disaster (don't pretend it's not possible, ever seen 1941?) and Man Of Steel underperforms for Warners and they can't crack the Justice League movie and the studio backs up a Brinks truck with 30 mil against 15 percent of the gross and agrees to finance his next movie or two and he wouldn't reconsider it?
However talented and innovative Nolan is (the degree of which is a legitimate argument) he's spent the last 8-10 years making big budget comic book movies for The Man. Not to mention the fact that HE PUT THE FUCKING SETUP FOR THE SEQUEL IN THE MOVIE!!! Does anyone seriously believe he was taking notes about the ending from some studio hack? Warners probably already has a blank check with his name on it and would see his agent's number on the caller id and answer the call with "Do you want Dark Knight or Batman in the title". And Bale? He did Terminator 4, clearly he'll work for a paycheck.
SpoilersSpoilers
Also, this clearly needed to be broken into two movies. It hung together okay but if you wanted to tell that whole story with that many characters you could have split it in two after Batman gets his ass handed to him and started the second with him waking up in prison. This movie was a weird combination of too much exposition and not enough character. With two parts you could have fleshed it out a bit and streamlined the narrative at the same time, if that makes sense. As it was there were just too many scenes that were clearly written longer and were trimmed just a bit too much on either end. Or you dump a character (Mathew Modine's comes to mind as does the SpecOps team) or lose the entire corporate takeover of Wayne Enterprises and just have Bane and Co. steal the fusion bomb widget and the fucking Tumblers, clearly they're experienced with jacking shit.
All that being said I still really liked it, maybe even more than TDK which I always felt had similar problems, just smaller. This movie is BIG, like David Lean epic big and you gotta respect that. Although my heart did break just a little when it turned out Scarecrow was the judge in the courtroom scenes and had a quick flash as to how that would have actually played out deliciously with Ledger's Joker. It almost felt like Cillian Murphy threw a little Joker mannerisms in there as a tribute.
And Anne Hathaway? It took two movies for Nolan to get a sexy woman in there but DAMN! That almost made up for Maggie Glyenhall's portrayal of the world's homeliest billionaire's girlfriend. I liked the Ra's Al Ghul and his daughter bit although again, another sexless actress in a role that needed someone smoking hot and exotic. And no, just a french accent doesn't cut it on the exotic front. I'm actually beginning to think Nolan's wife requires casting approval on any actress he puts in a film. Hathaway hasn't really come across as sexually desirable in anything I've seen so maybe he slipped her in by showing his wife cuts from Princess Diaries or something.
Also superficial point but I'm Batman. My ass is getting handed to me by some clearly sociopathic bald human wrecking ball that looks like he's been sucking on a bottle of HGH since he was born and he's wearing a mask. Really? That doesn't seem like it may be a chink in this brute's armor? I'm ripping that thing off WAY before I start fucking around with the toys in my fanny pack.
All and all though, really, really good movie. Maybe I'm just greedy for wanting two but I'll buy this day one on Bluray and watch it twenty times although Nolan needs to pull that stick he borrowed from Spielberg out of his ass and start laying down some commentary tracks. The Avengers? Meh, it was entertaining but I feel I'm going to think about it the same as I did the Trek reboot a few years ago, fun in the theater but doesn't hold up to repeated viewing. Spiderman? Liked it a lot but obviously a victim of excessive studio notes to a talented but novice directer with no pull and dramatically re-edited at the last minute. Prometheus? Technically, visually and production design up there with the best movies ever made but had a television writer's hands all over it rehashing late night undergrad weed-laced philosophical arguments (I'm talking to you Lost Boy, go back and play on the small screen and take Whedon with you) MIB III, Battleship and John Carter? The less said the better.
The Dark Knight Rises is far and away the best of this summer's blockbusters and the only "film" out of the bunch so far. I also will say it's so very sad that the opening of something so many fans waited for was tarnished by the despicable acts of a crazed individual and my heart goes out to the families of those poor souls that just wanted to see the movie we've all been waiting for and had their lives tragically cut short.
Christ I'm long-winded. ]
Kyle Fuller I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts on the shooting in Colorado. There's a great article over at EW.com that is both emotional and inspiring.
July 21, 2012 at 1:18AM ESThttp://popwatch.ew.com/2012/07/20/defy-the-theater-shooter/
Edwin I guess this sort of this is very subjective, but I personally find Marion Cotillard much more sexy and attractive than Anne Hathaway. And personally, she didn't really do much for me in the role. She wasn't bad, but I felt that her performance was a little too mannered at times, if that makes sense.
July 21, 2012 at 3:49PM ESTSJG
July 21, 2012 at 1:18AM EST Reply to CommentI thoroughly enjoyed the movie. It's clearly not as great as TDK, but I'm actually a little relieved at that. I think Nolan realized he wasn't going to improve on the second film, and decided simply to wrap things up in an exciting, fun, intelligent way. Anything more than what Nolan gave us would have felt like too much, I think, so I'm cool with overlooking the film's flaws. It's kind of how, when you eat an amazing meal at a nice restaurant, you don't follow it up with some massive, overly rich dessert... if that even makes sense. (It's late, and I'm tired.)
I don't have any strong desire to ramble on about this movie, but I have to give one or two stray observations [MINOR SPOILERS]:
Anne Hathaway seriously blew me away as Catwoman. And I say this as a devoted Anne H - hater. She did exactly what the part needed, nothing more, nothing less. It was a very disciplined performance.
The whole JGL thing was beautifully set-up, I thought, and then.... "Oh, I like your full name, [SPOILER-IF-YOU-GUESS-IT-WHICH-YOU-PROBZ-CAN]". Really? That's the tacky way they chose to make the big reveal about his character? As if it hadn't been obvious already?
The hallucination scene was the clunkiest exposition / twist set-up imaginable. I get that they wanted us to believe something that turned out to be misguided, but.... really, a hallucination?
Oscars? I just don't see it getting anything outside of some techs, maybe, but I wouldn't hold it against the Academy if they threw Nolan a BD or BP bone just as recognition for the whole trilogy, which is still pretty amazing when you consider it's a comic book adaptation. But I just don't see that happening.
Weirdly, though, I think this movie helps Hathaway's chances at a Les Mis nom, if that makes sense.
/tired rambling.
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