Oscar Talk: Ep. 86 -- 'The Dark Knight Rises' is here, but is it a player? (SPOILERS)
Also: MVPs from the year's first half and looking ahead to fall fests
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Welcome to Oscar Talk.
In case you're new to the site and/or the podcast, Oscar Talk is a weekly kudocast, your one-stop awards chat shop between yours truly and Anne Thompson of Thompson on Hollywood. The podcast is weekly, every Friday throughout the season, charting the ups and downs of contenders along the way. Plenty of things change en route to Oscar's stage and we're here to address it all as it unfolds.
Two years ago we brought the podcast back for a special edition around the release of Christopher Nolan's "Inception," a highly anticipated movie. Well, here we are again, with "The Dark Knight Rises" hitting theaters and fans and fanatics alike eager to get a look. So it seemed a good time to pop our head back up. Let's see what's on the docket...
Does Nolan top himself with the new film? We give our somewhat similar yet interestingly divergent takes on the film. NOTE: THERE ARE SPOILERS!
Oscars? Hey, everyone's been asking for years at this point, so let's break it down. Best Picture? Best Director? Only crafts? We discuss.
Having crossed the year's half-way point a few weeks back it's a good time to see what has released so far and deserves to stay in the conversation (whether it will or not) throughout the rest of the season. We talk about that and the year's two awards MVPs so far: "Moonrise Kingdom" and "Beasts of the Southern Wild."
Comic-Con wrapped up last weekend. "Django Unchained" and "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey" were among the potential awards films of the season to try and get a foothold with the geeks. Did they get a boost?
And finally, we take a brief look ahead to the upcoming fall festival circuit. What films will platform from there into the rest of the season? We take a modest crack at figuring it out, but it's early yet.
Have a listen to the new podcast below. It's a long one so strap in. If the file cuts off for you at any time, try the back-up download link at the bottom of this post. And as always, remember to subscribe to Oscar Talk via iTunes here.
"Here I Come" courtesy of Stuart Park
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2012-2013 OSCAR PREDICTIONS
Best Picture
Best Director
Best Actor
Best Actress
Best Supporting Actor
Best Supporting Actress
Best Adapted Screenplay
Best Original Screenplay
Best Cinematography
Best Costume Design
Best Film Editing
Best Makeup And Hairstyling
Best Original Score
Best Original Song
Best Production Design
Best Sound Editing
Best Sound Mixing
Best Visual Effects
Best Animated Feature Film
Best Documentary Feature
Best Foreign Language Film
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Login or create a HitFix account Login SignupKristopher Tapley
July 20, 2012 at 5:17PM EST Reply to CommentFYI, this was recorded before this morning's tragic events. It's extremely trivial to go on about film opinions and Oscars with that in mind. But here it is.
Jonnybon I was wondering when Anne said "shoot me!"
July 20, 2012 at 7:25PM ESTred_wine
July 20, 2012 at 6:43PM EST Reply to CommentRapache? :D Love that. I am gonna be calling her Noomi Rapache from now on.
Moulin Rouge used the beat that is the ending song.
And I think TDKR might still happen. WB will absolutely whore it out. Like Anne said, when Nolan missed Director twice in a row, he was really shell struck. 4-5 Noms are definitely happening, as are PGA & WGA and very possibly DGA and SAG noms. It might be the Dragon Tattoo of the year - absolutely skipped by the critics awards, suddenly embraced by the guilds, and again skipped by the Academy.
Guy Lodge I used to say "Rapache," but I've since heard from a Swedish friend that it's "Ra-PAHS."
July 23, 2012 at 7:55AM ESTAdam
July 20, 2012 at 8:01PM EST Reply to CommentI agree that it isn't presented to maximum effect, but the whole city rotting thing was that there was still suffering just more under the surface. That was the whole rich getting richer poor getting poorer Catwoman speech part. The boy's home kicking people out, Selina's poverty and desperation. I think the movie is saying that while crime is being controlled by tight laws and criminals serving longer sentences (the Harvey Dent Act), there is still a lot of suffering right below the surface (the very literal fact that Bane worked in the sewers).
With Cotillard's character, there isn't enough time spent on her in the first half to really buy the romance. I didn't see the twist coming, though I know some comic book lover friends or people who were speculating online before did see that coming. Though, it's not really Nolan's fault.
Overall, I agree much more with Anne. There are flaws (ideas not fully followed through on, too many characters to give them all their due, a bit of incoherent action), and if you want to let it ruin the film for you, I totally get it. Just thought the spectacle, performances, and ambition greatly overrode those flaws. Selina Kyle is still in my head.
Dennis Arthur
July 20, 2012 at 10:21PM EST Reply to CommentWow ..you guys do not sound excited on the podcast
Conor
July 20, 2012 at 11:31PM EST Reply to CommentIn the discussion on TDKR, I tended to agree with Kris more. Granted, I did overlook some of the flaws like Anne because the movie was fun, but that was kind of the problem with the movie: it was a fun comic book movie. TDK managed to be fun, but also thematically rich, and for some reason tight to me even though it was sprawling at the seams... Wish you guys discussed what you thought of Blake's character. He was such a big part of the movie, and a great character I think, even though he seemed like his involvement with everything was improbably extensive.
Kevin Ketchum
July 21, 2012 at 12:12AM EST Reply to CommentRumor has it that Open Road might re-release The Grey come October just as a "reminder", at least just to push Liam Neeson for Best Actor. Thoughts?
Dooby I am a huge fan of the film, it's my favourite so far this year - but this is so, so not happening.
July 21, 2012 at 5:24AM ESTtom I thought that was an awful and painfully boring movie. Why would they release it in October, isn't that about the time that Taken is coming out?
July 22, 2012 at 1:56AM ESTHoustonRufus
July 21, 2012 at 12:25AM EST Reply to CommentKris, I love you, man. But during this whole podcast you are protesting too much. I'm not sure what perspective you brought to this about TDKR, but Anne comes off much, much more magnanimous and even keeled. You are so grumpy!! ha!!
HoustonRufus I know my previous comment comes off as a complaint, but this podcast is fantastic. Love the discussion. Don't worry about the length. Just happy to listen. Thanks for sharing guys!
July 21, 2012 at 12:50AM ESTKristopher Tapley Sorry. It's Batman.
July 21, 2012 at 12:50AM ESTJuanL
July 21, 2012 at 1:14AM EST Reply to CommentWhere's Guy? We need his love of Damsels in Distress and Miss Bala. 2 Greats from the first half of 2012 that need some love.
My other favorites include the much smaller The Day He Arrives and Polisse.
Will
July 21, 2012 at 1:18AM EST Reply to CommentGreat to have another episode!
I totally agree with Kris i.e. a potential Batman sequel. I saw the last scene with JGL as a continuation of the theme of the Nolan franchise that Batman is a symbol. Batman will continue. Bruce Wayne will not. I didn't see it as set up for a sequel at all.
Hope you guys will both check out Take this Waltz. It's my favorite film of the year so far.
Can't wait to hear you guys talk again in August.
SamuelM I disagree with most of Kris's thoughts on the movie, but on this point i'm totally in agreement. I didn't feel like it was setup for a sequel at all.
July 21, 2012 at 4:26AM ESTWe've seen so many summer blockbusters over the last decade blatantly end with a setup for a sequel that we're probably a bit conditioned to see it. But there's a difference between setup for a sequel and an ending which simply allows for the notion that these people and this world will continue.
TDKR is a very resolute emotional conclusion to the Nolan Batman arc, it simply would not work to return to this world.
Evan
July 21, 2012 at 11:52AM EST Reply to CommentI'm not exactly following why you guys think that Beasts of the Southern Wild will have trouble scoring an Adapted Screenplay nomination. It's so overwhelmingly novel and charming... I'd think the Academy would eat that right up.
And on the other hand, you mention Best Exotic Marigold Hotel as a possible nominee. I know it's in their wheelhouse, but just my own personal view: the movie is adorable, but the screenplay is so predictable. Except for Tom Wilkinson's character's story, we'd see it all before. Even as a fan of the film, I'll be very sad if it picks up a nomination in Adapted Screenplay.
Kristopher Tapley I just buckled a bit because Anne was obviously not changing her mind on the film as an awards player. I think she's completely wrong.
July 21, 2012 at 2:30PM EST/3rt
July 21, 2012 at 1:46PM EST Reply to CommentNot sure if it's too personal Kris, why are you moving to NY?
Kristopher Tapley Time and means.
July 21, 2012 at 2:31PM ESTAlex L.
July 21, 2012 at 4:57PM EST Reply to CommentWhen are we getting an update of the contenders and sidebar?
Kristopher Tapley No need or reason to do so until just before Telluride, as usual.
July 21, 2012 at 7:19PM ESTAl
July 21, 2012 at 4:58PM EST Reply to CommentAwards wise, I can't see WB fighting as hard for it anymore.
Chris138
July 21, 2012 at 6:37PM EST Reply to CommentKris, I agree with you that Nolan will have his time when it comes to awards but it won't be for Batman. I love his Batman trilogy, even though the last one I thought was good but not up to par with the first two, but I don't see this being what gets him noticed by the Academy. I also think it would be cool and a step forward for them to acknowledge the movie in a category like Best Picture, but in all truth this movie just doesn't seem like the kind that would get nominated there. Technical nods sound about right.
JLPatt
July 21, 2012 at 10:41PM EST Reply to CommentYou're absolutely right when you say "The Dark Knight Rises" feels like a step down from the other two when it comes to below-the-line craft.
Which makes it kind of weird you think it'll be nominated for (or has a good shot at) a Cinematography nomination. I didn't feel like this one was that well shot at all, and agree with you it doesn't have the striking color palette and memorable images of the first two pictures. In all honesty, I don't think the film really deserves any nominations outside of Visual Effects. The sound work is just so overbearing and pitched at the same perpetual level of loudness.
Matthew Starr
July 21, 2012 at 11:03PM EST Reply to CommentTDKR was definitely the most "comic book" of the trilogy. It almost didn't even seem like a Chris Nolan Batman at points. It's fun and entertaining, the IMAX was great but the story is pretty choppy and the characters not fully realized.
There is no way JGL and Anne Hathaway will do a Batman film not directed by Nolan. I would be borderline shocked.
SPOILERS:
The last shot of the movie should have been Michael Caine looking at the camera and nodding. That's it. We did not need another shot showing us the other table. The audience is not that stupid.
rustyreub I thought so too but then on second thought, NOT showing the other table would have felt like a cheat. This isn't Inception.
July 22, 2012 at 12:02AM ESTMatthew Starr But there still would have been little question as to why Caine nodded/smiled. We all knew what he saw before they showed us. Not necessary.
July 22, 2012 at 10:54AM ESTKristopher Tapley What's cheap about it? It's storytelling, without hitting someone in the face with it. The shot of Bruce was Mentos-commercial cheesy.
July 22, 2012 at 2:26PM ESTlazarus I felt this way originally as well, Kris. But isn't the point not to just show that Bruce survived, but that he's with someone who can understand exactly what he's been through in his past? It's also nice to see that Selina did not go back to her old ways. Nothing wrong with closure. Though I have to say, they could have been dressed better.
July 22, 2012 at 7:11PM ESTMatthew Starr That's another element of the final shot that annoyed me.
July 22, 2012 at 8:45PM ESTBruce wouldn't stop being Batman for Rachel, someone he knew and liked his entire life but he'll run off to Europe with some crazy cat lady at the drop of a hat. Not to mention this same woman tripped him up while he was a cripple, stole his jewelery and betrayed him.
The final scene was so ridiculous really that I was half expecting Michael Caine to take out a top and spin it.
SJG Lazarus pointed out why it was right to show the other table... I personally hadn't thought about Selina Kyle being the woman that would be at the table with Bruce Wayne. I thought the nod would have been enough (and that was all I expected to see), but when we got just enough of a glimpse of Anne Hathaway's profile I thought, "Wow, that was a nice touch that brought their relationship to a nice close." I thought it felt... conclusive. In a way that it wouldn't have without showing the other table.
July 22, 2012 at 9:02PM ESTIn the end, this particular shot seems like the most unnecessary thing to argue about, though. Lots of other problems with the movie to nitpick, IMHO.
SJG Ha, I just now see that Matthew Starr clearly thinks differently from me, though, so maybe I'm alone in liking the Selina Kyle inclusion.
July 22, 2012 at 9:03PM ESTtom
July 22, 2012 at 1:55AM EST Reply to CommentI really think that the shooter kind of made it impossible now for this to be considered for best picture, I hope I'm wrong, Christopher Nolan deserves a nod.
Derek 8-Track
July 22, 2012 at 9:55AM EST Reply to CommentSo with Bruce's busted leg and everything... does that mean he's been fighting major crime (Riddler, Penguin, Freeze, Killer Croc) since the death of Harvey Dent, and is all battered as a result? Or has, as the movie also suggests, there been peace and Batman hasn't needed to fight crime? I'm confused.
Matthew Starr I think there has been a peace and he's injured from the events of the first two movies.
July 22, 2012 at 2:13PM ESTDerek 8-Track Man that sucks, that makes Batman seem so weak. He was only Batman for like... what, a year, maybe a few more. I'm just going to assume his leg was busted in an under the radar fight with Killer Croc during peacetime in the Gotham sewers.
July 22, 2012 at 4:27PM ESTKristopher Tapley Oh, that's the most overlooked aspect of the whole thing, to me. They wasted that "eight years later" concept entirely.
July 22, 2012 at 5:09PM ESTDylanS If you remember at the end of "Dark Knight", He breaks his leg falling from the building pushing Harvey off to prevent him from killing Gordon and the has to continue to run from the police. I'm assuming that was the injury to his leg that forced him to use a cane.
July 22, 2012 at 10:24PM ESTHarris He got his leg busted from falling off the building at the end of the dark knight. I mean, the fall killed dent, so I think it would do permanent damage to batman
July 23, 2012 at 12:48AM ESTDerek 8-Track I guess the fall will have to be my explanation. Considering how short of a time he was Batman, it just seems so small and makes Bruce look so weak when I compare him to people in UFC or even WWF/WWE. Jake 'The Snake' Roberts is in better shape and he's been wrestling since '74. Kind of funny how I can buy The Bat Hovercraft and all his other gadgets but i can't justify his battered body.
July 23, 2012 at 1:29AM ESTJJ1
July 22, 2012 at 11:07AM EST Reply to CommentLoved hearing you guys again. Love these podcasts. Thank you for that. Glad that you got to clamp down on a few big and smaller movies to discuss (both opened already, and yet to come).
On TDKR, I found myself agreeing with Anne, moreso -- and I almost can't believe it, lol.
I just thought TDKR was a big, fun, (mostly) smart, epic, well-acted, good-looking, trilogy-capping comic book movie that pleases on many levels. To me, it was on par with 'The Avengers', which felt smoother in execution, but never got my pulse racing (like Nolan's films always do).
Call me shallow, call me whatever, but I just don't go into most movies (comic book or not) seeking out some deep, underlying, sociological, thematic, allegorical, zeitgeisty, meaningful component. I guess it's just not in my cerebral/aesthetic make-up to ponder big questions in a movie. So while I can understand criticism from those who yearn for it, that just isn't me.
I went, I watched, I oohed, I ahhed, I scrunched my face in confusion (at times), I was mostly entertained, and it got a big rise out of me in the end.
I went into the movie completely unspoiled. I got what I paid for. And I look forward to seeing it again to see if it improves even more upon my: "it was fun, kinda flawed, kinda long, but wow" opinion. I just don't look into it that deeply.
SJG I wholeheartedly endorse this comment, and, let's face it, if TDK hadn't been so universally loved and well-received, half of everyone who's criticizing this movie would be arguing that it's the best and most awesome comic book movie EVERRRR.
July 22, 2012 at 9:07PM ESTKristopher Tapley No, SJG, whether TDK shat the bed or not, in this state, people would still have major issues with TDKR because it's issues are, well, major.
July 23, 2012 at 2:03PM ESTSJG I don't deny there are flaws with the movie. And I know that some people, like you, Kris, really are evaluating the movie on its merits (or lack thereof). But I still maintain that about half of all the criticisms I've seen have less to do with the movie's serious flaws, and more to do with I-wasn't-as-blown-away-by-this-as-I-was-by-TDK-so-TDKR-must-have-sucked-so-there.
July 24, 2012 at 10:06AM ESTFor most of the world's blockbuster movie going audience, this was still way up there in terms of quality, excitement, and fun, especially compared to most other stuff that's come out this year.
Gautam Anand
July 22, 2012 at 2:33PM EST Reply to CommentKris I agree with you .. every word of urs ...
Here is my take on TDKR ..
The Dark Knight Rises: What separates Nolan's movies from others is while most of the action movies rely on technology his movies rely on depth of characters and innovative thinking. Magic is in his writing. That's precisely why while 90% of action movies in the guile of special effects & CGI are pieces of trash … Nolan's movies are pieces of marvel. Having said all this let's come to TDKR. It pains me as much any one else to accept this... but TDKR is actually the weakest film of Nolan's career. Yes it is. Even if we ignore the fact that it doesn't have a charming villain like Joker or it's not as original as Memento or as cerebral as Inception....... what's hard to ignore is the glaring loopholes in the movie. Or rather the shortcomings. When Batman is thrashed by Bane one doesn't empathize with him. Neither does one feel exulted when Batman escapes the prison. As the movie gushes towards climax editing scissors start to work randomly. Towards the end what remains in the movie is just the skeleton in the form of glamorously shot action scenes. Though inspite of all the shortcomings.. TDKR is not a bad film. It's just not brilliant. There are moments where you get goosebumps...… Anne Hathaway as cat women and Lewitt as brainy cop provide some relishing moments. All said and done .. TDKR might be Nolan's worst but it's still one of the best to have come out of Hollywood this year. Such are Nolan's standards.
JJ1 Even though I seem to have enjoyed this movie more than Kris or you, I would mostly agree with what you said, here:
July 22, 2012 at 3:15PM EST"All said and done .. TDKR might be Nolan's worst but it's still one of the best to have come out of Hollywood this year. Such are Nolan's standards".
I also think there have been some disappointments this year which have made TDKR appear to be one of the year's very best. I loved it (flaws included). But yeah, it just isn't OMGAMAZING.
Kim
July 22, 2012 at 7:19PM EST Reply to CommentKris, though I agree with your overall negative take on the film (though I haven't seen it a second time yet, my opinion may change), I think there's one detail you got wrong that might be misinforming your opinion of the themes. You said that Bane was re-enacting Ra's Al Ghul's plans from the first film, to destroy Gotham in order for it to be rebuilt, and that this seems at odds with his plan to nuke the city into non-existence. I'd argue that Bane doesn't possess any of the misguided idealism of Ra's; he's not enacting Ra's plan but Talia's. Talia just wants to destroy the city for good. It's a revenge story in the end, revenge on the man, and thus the city he loves, who killed her father. This whole 99% revolution, this is just a pretence for Bane to take over the city and torture Bruce (on Talia's behalf) by slowly bleeding it with the promise of hope, hope for a better, more equal future, before destroying it once and for all. The 99% stuff, the social revolution, that's just window dressing (as much as I wish it wasn't). The real theme of the movie is hope (whether it be hope for a system that is more fair and equitable) and how it can be false, damaging and co-opted for nefarious ends (by the kind of people like Bane and Talia) or genuine and inspirational. That link you tweeted from Bilge Ebiri put it well.
Kristopher Tapley Well, yeah, it's her will and he's the tool. Same page.
July 22, 2012 at 11:28PM ESTDylanS
July 22, 2012 at 10:32PM EST Reply to CommentAs someone who's a fan of Gary Oldman and his portrayal of Gordon in both previous films, I feel like they betrayed the intelligence of his character to an extreme in this film. Are we really supposed to believe that a former detective who was good enough at his job to become commissioner couldn't piece the Batman/Bruce Wayne connection together until Batman spelled it out for him? After the coinciding 8 years without Batman and the seclusion of Bruce Wayne and having been in personal contact with both bruce and Batman enough times to get a sense of his physique and voice (even considering the change in tone), you think the thought might have dawned on him. That might not have bothered me had it not been for Blake having been able to piece it together after one look at Bruce Wayne visiting his orphanage as a child.
Kristopher Tapley "As someone who's a fan of Gary Oldman and his portrayal of Gordon in both previous films, I feel like they betrayed the intelligence of his character to an extreme in this film."
July 22, 2012 at 11:29PM ESTAgreed.
thekingbulletin And not only intelligence wise -- I feel like his emotional-anchor contribution was diminished greatly here, especially if you compare it to "The Dark Knight," where his character is so central to the film's themes and moral conflicts. In this one he's basically sidelined and relegated to second treatment.
July 23, 2012 at 2:05AM ESTDylanS THEKINGBULLETIN- I agree to an extent about his emotional-anchor role being diminished, but he does still have two nice if very brief moments. The moment in the hospital bed where he's talking to the masked Bruce is nice as well as the moment towards the end where he does finally figure out the Wayne/Batman connection, which in spite of how delayed it was, I was worried it wasn't going to be included at all.
July 23, 2012 at 7:49AM ESTWatching "Batman Begins" again the other day, I was reminded of how moving the scene where a young Bruce was consoled by a younger Gordon after his parents were killed. The simplicity of that moment is a rare sighting for Nolan, but it's the simplicity that makes it work so profoundly. Just Oldman's repeating of "It's alright" has a very nurturing feel, and might be my favorite emotional moment in any Nolan movie. I was glad Nolan used the moment to bridge the revelation here.
thekingbulletin That is indeed a profound moment in "Begins" -- so much so, in fact, that when it popped up in flashback-mode in "TDKR," all I really wanted to do was just go back and re-watch "Begins" instead.
July 23, 2012 at 7:39PM ESTJohn Blake
July 22, 2012 at 10:45PM EST Reply to CommentI don't agree with there being no reason to destroy Gotham since Gotham is at peace. Firstly, Gotham's peace is based off of a lie. If that's irrelevant than Bane's wouldn't have read the speech that he found on Jim Gordon. He already has the city on lockdown, so if he wanted to destroy Gotham for the hell of it, he wouldn't care to read the speech to Gotham. He want's Gotham to know that their peace is a lie, and that without that lie, Gotham would still be in trouble. He wants to "free the city of Gotham" from that lie and show its true colours. Second, Talia views Bruce Wayne as her fathers killer and wants revenge, and the best way to do that is to finish what her father started, what her father wanted, and what he would have succeeded of doing if it wasn't for Bruce Wayne.
JLPatt But that just raises another question - how would anyone know Bane was telling the truth, and why would anyone believe him? Does he really look like a reliable source of information to people?
July 22, 2012 at 11:42PM ESTKristopher Tapley Yeah, Bane's whole revelation of the "truth" of Harvey Dent is really limp.
July 23, 2012 at 2:05PM ESTJohn Blake Well by that point I don't think he has to prove anything to anyone since he has overrun the city already. There would be no reason for him to lie, and it wouldn't matter if it was a lie or not, because, he already has control. I don't think anyone would question him at that point unless they wanted their neck broken lol. Plus, he DOES have the speech from Gordon that is in Gordon's writing. Not that it would matter or that he would do it, but he can use it as proof. Like I said though, he has control of the City already and he can do what he wants regardless so he has no reason to lie, plus we as the audience know it's the truth, so maybe we should stop reaching for that as a flaw? Oh and also the whole thing about Talia's revenge too....
July 23, 2012 at 8:50PM ESTKyle Pinion
July 23, 2012 at 3:03PM EST Reply to CommentNow that we're past the trilogy, I kinda fear what the next step is going to be 2-3 years down the road. I know WB/Legendary are going to concentrating on Man of Steel + whatever the next annoucement will be, but at this point, rebooting Batman seems a bit reductive. I hope WB learned the lesson of somewhat muted response to The Amazing Spider-man and will go a different route than just starting the story all over again...but what'll it be?