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Created about 1 year ago.
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sepinwall
Game of Thrones, "The Rains of Castamere" for people who haven't read the books
Spoilers Included

This is a place for people who have not read the GRRM books but want to be able to talk about the latest Game of Thrones episode to do it.

 
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Replied about 1 year ago.
Dr. Dunkenstein

GAhhhhhh! What the fuck is wrong with these people. What sort of assholeish peabrained, comic-book guy level dorks do you have to be to spoil shit just to ruin other people's enjoyment of something? I don't want to believe that people on the internet are incapable of behaving like human beings but for fuck's sake.

 
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Replied about 1 year ago.
Lbsammills51

I'm putting my post I'd originally meant for Alan's review here because comments were taken down while I was in the midst of writing it (I don't blame Alan...people with spoilers, Christ, show some restraint).

Anyways...

I don't think I've ever felt this traumatized by an episode of TV before. Jesus Christ.

I DID see a reference to something called a "Red Wedding" before this season (something about a casting going out for extras and the article mentioned a "Red Wedding," but I don't read the books so I had no idea what the hell it was referencing) and became clear as the season went on, especially once Frey got back into the picture, that SOMEthing bad was coming. It was also pretty spelled out that Frey would factor in down the road because 1. Catelyn kept harping on Robb breaking his promise to Frey to marry one of his daughters last season and 2. How seriously people take their oaths and what happens when they're broken (look what happened to Jamie.

Everything about that sequence was traumatizing. Arya seeing her people murdered before her eyes, again. A Dire Wolf dying, again. Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach (that was effed up) multiple times. Bolton delivering the finishing blow (I had no idea the Lannisters would be involved, I didn't even think of them during that), making me despise Tywin and Joffrey even more. That last scene with Catelyn. Christ.

This isn't even hyperbole but I'm probably going to be distracted at work because this ep will still be going through my head.

(On top of all this, I get to deal with the stress of trying to get a preorder in at midnight on AmiAmi, so that'll be a fun cap to this night.)

 
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Replied about 1 year ago.
Banksy_thumb
alphabet

The song played at the wedding which caught Cat's attention just before the slaughter was "The Rains of Castamere" - a House Lannister song we've heard a few times now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeCCPoVFK4c

 
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Replied about 1 year ago.
webdiva
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphabet

The song played at the wedding which caught Cat's attention just before the slaughter was "The Rains of Castamere" - a House Lannister song we've heard a few times now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeCCPoVFK4c

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that song and the closing of the big doors tipped her off to Bad Things Coming Up Next. What was really awful was watching Catelyn beg for Robb's life and the look on his face with him knowing it was pointless for his mother to reduce herself to that in front of the Freys and Bolton.

So this was the infamous Red Wedding that I'd heard about, but not in detail. Bloody awful, emphasis on both words, though very well done. Poor Arya was close enough to guess what went on but, thankfully, not close enough to actually see both her mother and brother slaughtered. No doubt the Hound will be informing her who was responsible, because he's heard by now. That list of hers has just gotten longer.

I also found it interesting that just as Arya was close but not close enough to her brother and mother and missed connecting with them (which kept her alive), Bran and Rickon were also oh, so close to their half-brother Jon Snow -- and failing to connect with him kept *them* alive as well. Ships passing in the night and bitter ironies. One wonders what poor Rickon, the baby of the Starks, will be in for now that the two youngest brothers are separating.

Daenerys, however, was well served. I expect that look in Jorah Mormont's eyes after the three returned to their queen will tempt him to do something stupid in the future, out of jealousy -- that was pretty obviously telegraphed. Also looked up Ed Skrein (hunky Daario Naharis) on IMDB and discovered he's not so much to look at in normal photos; amazing what a great head of hair and a shave will do for a guy: instant eye candy. And Dany has noticed. Too bad for Jorah, but then he's already betrayed her once by spying on her at the start.

 
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Replied about 1 year ago.
webdiva
Quote:
Originally Posted by webdiva

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that song and the closing of the big doors tipped her off to Bad Things Coming Up Next. What was really awful was watching Catelyn beg for Robb's life and the look on his face with him knowing it was pointless for his mother to reduce herself to that in front of the Freys and Bolton.

So this was the infamous Red Wedding that I'd heard about, but not in detail. Bloody awful, emphasis on both words, though very well done. Poor Arya was close enough to guess what went on but, thankfully, not close enough to actually see both her mother and brother slaughtered. No doubt the Hound will be informing her who was responsible, because he's heard by now. That list of hers has just gotten longer.

I also found it interesting that just as Arya was close but not close enough to her brother and mother and missed connecting with them (which kept her alive), Bran and Rickon were also oh, so close to their half-brother Jon Snow -- and failing to connect with him kept *them* alive as well. Ships passing in the night and bitter ironies. One wonders what poor Rickon, the baby of the Starks, will be in for now that the two youngest brothers are separating.

Daenerys, however, was well served. I expect that look in Jorah Mormont's eyes after the three returned to their queen will tempt him to do something stupid in the future, out of jealousy -- that was pretty obviously telegraphed. Also looked up Ed Skrein (hunky Daario Naharis) on IMDB and discovered he's not so much to look at in normal photos; amazing what a great head of hair and a shave will do for a guy: instant eye candy. And Dany has noticed. Too bad for Jorah, but then he's already betrayed her once by spying on her at the start.

I should add that this should be considered the most grievous violation of hospitality in Westeros: if you share bread and salt (i.e., a meal) with a visitor, that visitor's safety is supposed to be guaranteed. If you're planning on killing someone, you don't break bread with them ... or you wait until they've left your house. This was about the worst way that anyone could break the rules of hospitality, and there are bound to be consequences; at the least, it means that nobody -- not even the Lannisters, most likely -- will ever trust Bolton or the Freys ever again. Tywin's bought them but probably doesn't trust them. Bad news for them, as they're nowhere near as wealthy or influential as House Tyrell but will still need allies. Still, it sucks a lot more to be dead Robb Stark.

 
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Replied about 1 year ago.
Darkdoug
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbsammills51

I'm putting my post I'd originally meant for Alan's review here because comments were taken down while I was in the midst of writing it (I don't blame Alan...people with spoilers, Christ, show some restraint).

Anyways...

I don't think I've ever felt this traumatized by an episode of TV before. Jesus Christ.

I DID see a reference to something called a "Red Wedding" before this season (something about a casting going out for extras and the article mentioned a "Red Wedding," but I don't read the books so I had no idea what the hell it was referencing) and became clear as the season went on, especially once Frey got back into the picture, that SOMEthing bad was coming. It was also pretty spelled out that Frey would factor in down the road because 1. Catelyn kept harping on Robb breaking his promise to Frey to marry one of his daughters last season and 2. How seriously people take their oaths and what happens when they're broken (look what happened to Jamie.

Everything about that sequence was traumatizing. Arya seeing her people murdered before her eyes, again. A Dire Wolf dying, again. Robb's wife getting stabbed in the stomach (that was effed up) multiple times. Bolton delivering the finishing blow (I had no idea the Lannisters would be involved, I didn't even think of them during that), making me despise Tywin and Joffrey even more. That last scene with Catelyn. Christ.

This isn't even hyperbole but I'm probably going to be distracted at work because this ep will still be going through my head.

(On top of all this, I get to deal with the stress of trying to get a preorder in at midnight on AmiAmi, so that'll be a fun cap to this night.)

Between Tyrion & Sansa's wedding, this one and the upcoming wedding of Joffrey & Margaery, I think it would be fair to say that it wasn't clear exactly what a "red wedding" would refer to. Presumably the blood, and a reference to Frey's comment about red wine flowing, but it could have been just about anything.

 
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Replied about 1 year ago.
Darkdoug

Some things from Sepinwall's review that I just did not get.
"Stupid Robb Stark, on the other hand, made bad decisions but without the consistency of the old man...
But if Robb was both foolhardy..."

Not to pick on Alan, because I have seen these notions floated around a lot on the internet (as Sepinwall notes, there is even a Stupid Ned meme), but now that his arc is done, I don't see what Robb did that was so stupid or any major mistakes he made except for one. Ned made the egregious blunder of giving Cersei a heads up that he was on to her and planned to arrest her, but that was more weakness talking, because he wanted to give her a chance to run. The guy who brought his preteen son to watch him chop off a man's head in the first episode and spoke on the importance of doing dirty work yourself, should not have been one to flinch at arresting a pretty woman and her kids, even if it would mean her death. The show even underlined the point of his personal weakness by having Jon Snow questioned about whether Ned would do his duty or act on his personal attachments, in the very same episode where he succumbs to threats against Sansa. Either way, there is a case for both personal weakness and stupidity.

For Robb though, I don't see what significant blunders he's committed. Marrying Talisa might have cost him the allegiance of Walder Frey, but the guy was an untrustworthy weasel who had to be bribed to cooperate with his ostensible allies in the first place. They wouldn't let Robb go into his castle alone in the first season, but sent the relatively useless Catelyn. With everything else we see (Bolton's discussion of the marriage pact and actions regarding Jaime and the failure of his bastard to fight the Greyjoys effectively), the betrayal was long underway and the wedding only gave them an excuse. I don't know if Edmond was being hacked up in his marriage bed, but maybe that would just have been Robb if he had agreed. Bolton certainly has no such excuse, and he was already plotting with the Lannisters. If anything, it was Catelyn freeing Jaime that started the unraveling of loyalties, what with Carstark's betrayal and then Bolton letting Jaime go, because he was afraid of the consequences of his maiming. Or maybe it was just Catelyn's brother ruining Robb's trap that turned Bolton, who maybe gave up on the cause, once the Lannister army survived to fight another day and beat Stannis in "Blackwater."

Beyond the marriage, which had nothing to do with the more dangerous of Robb's traitors, Bolton, his only other possible blunder was freeing Theon, but he was right about Theon's character (he actually wrote a letter warning Robb, before giving in). Given the scant regard his father has for him from the moment he shows up at Pyke, who is to say that he would have been any more impressed by a threat to Theon than Walder Frey was by Catelyn's threat to his wife?

Catelyn is hardly one to talk about the importance of keeping hostages, given her own ineptitude regarding captives, and her misjudgment of Frey's resolve. Who is to say that with her well-established antipathy to Robb's other sort-of brother, Jon Snow, she could be trusted at all? I mean, Theon swore brotherhood with Robb, he saved Bran's life, and he was Robb's most vocal and enthusiastic supporter. Given that Catelyn had blown her credibility with her crappy treatment of Robb's half-brother, and neglect of everything but Bran while he was in a coma, blowing off her advice doesn't look all that bad a move. Certainly not stupid.

Even the Greyjoy betrayal looks pretty stupid in hindsight. Maybe together, the Starks and Greyjoys and Tullys could have all stood against the Lannisters or Renly or Stannis or whoever ends up with the Throne, and carved out their independant kingdoms. Now, however, the Greyjoys are the last of the separatists standing (if they are still doing anything since leaving Winterfell). They couldn't beat the Westerosi loyalists last time, and that's how Theon came to be raised with the Starks. What makes anyone think they can win again? Especially since the Lannisters now have a claim to the North through Sansa, and have the last northern noble (Bolton) doing their dirty work.

Greyjoy was the idiot, for dooming his own cause, going for the easy win and counting on the Lannisters to distract Robb, without looking ahead to the long term and wondering what the winner of that fight would do. In that case, Robb's only error was expecting intelligent self-interest, rather than the Greyjoys shooting both causes in the foot. And that's assuming Stannis & Melisandre's voodoo with Gendry's blood doesn't kill Balon & Joffrey. Joffrey has a little brother to be a puppet heir and Tywin & company to keep the army together and hold the throne. The Greyjoys have no heirs, aside Yara, who makes Robb Stark & Jon Snow look lively and charismatic.

 
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Replied about 1 year ago.
Dr. Dunkenstein
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkdoug

Some things from Sepinwall's review that I just did not get.
"Stupid Robb Stark, on the other hand, made bad decisions but without the consistency of the old man...
But if Robb was both foolhardy..."

Not to pick on Alan, because I have seen these notions floated around a lot on the internet (as Sepinwall notes, there is even a Stupid Ned meme), but now that his arc is done, I don't see what Robb did that was so stupid or any major mistakes he made except for one. Ned made the egregious blunder of giving Cersei a heads up that he was on to her and planned to arrest her, but that was more weakness talking, because he wanted to give her a chance to run. The guy who brought his preteen son to watch him chop off a man's head in the first episode and spoke on the importance of doing dirty work yourself, should not have been one to flinch at arresting a pretty woman and her kids, even if it would mean her death. The show even underlined the point of his personal weakness by having Jon Snow questioned about whether Ned would do his duty or act on his personal attachments, in the very same episode where he succumbs to threats against Sansa. Either way, there is a case for both personal weakness and stupidity.

For Robb though, I don't see what significant blunders he's committed. Marrying Talisa might have cost him the allegiance of Walder Frey, but the guy was an untrustworthy weasel who had to be bribed to cooperate with his ostensible allies in the first place. They wouldn't let Robb go into his castle alone in the first season, but sent the relatively useless Catelyn. With everything else we see (Bolton's discussion of the marriage pact and actions regarding Jaime and the failure of his bastard to fight the Greyjoys effectively), the betrayal was long underway and the wedding only gave them an excuse. I don't know if Edmond was being hacked up in his marriage bed, but maybe that would just have been Robb if he had agreed. Bolton certainly has no such excuse, and he was already plotting with the Lannisters. If anything, it was Catelyn freeing Jaime that started the unraveling of loyalties, what with Carstark's betrayal and then Bolton letting Jaime go, because he was afraid of the consequences of his maiming. Or maybe it was just Catelyn's brother ruining Robb's trap that turned Bolton, who maybe gave up on the cause, once the Lannister army survived to fight another day and beat Stannis in "Blackwater."

Beyond the marriage, which had nothing to do with the more dangerous of Robb's traitors, Bolton, his only other possible blunder was freeing Theon, but he was right about Theon's character (he actually wrote a letter warning Robb, before giving in). Given the scant regard his father has for him from the moment he shows up at Pyke, who is to say that he would have been any more impressed by a threat to Theon than Walder Frey was by Catelyn's threat to his wife?

Catelyn is hardly one to talk about the importance of keeping hostages, given her own ineptitude regarding captives, and her misjudgment of Frey's resolve. Who is to say that with her well-established antipathy to Robb's other sort-of brother, Jon Snow, she could be trusted at all? I mean, Theon swore brotherhood with Robb, he saved Bran's life, and he was Robb's most vocal and enthusiastic supporter. Given that Catelyn had blown her credibility with her crappy treatment of Robb's half-brother, and neglect of everything but Bran while he was in a coma, blowing off her advice doesn't look all that bad a move. Certainly not stupid.

Even the Greyjoy betrayal looks pretty stupid in hindsight. Maybe together, the Starks and Greyjoys and Tullys could have all stood against the Lannisters or Renly or Stannis or whoever ends up with the Throne, and carved out their independant kingdoms. Now, however, the Greyjoys are the last of the separatists standing (if they are still doing anything since leaving Winterfell). They couldn't beat the Westerosi loyalists last time, and that's how Theon came to be raised with the Starks. What makes anyone think they can win again? Especially since the Lannisters now have a claim to the North through Sansa, and have the last northern noble (Bolton) doing their dirty work.

Greyjoy was the idiot, for dooming his own cause, going for the easy win and counting on the Lannisters to distract Robb, without looking ahead to the long term and wondering what the winner of that fight would do. In that case, Robb's only error was expecting intelligent self-interest, rather than the Greyjoys shooting both causes in the foot. And that's assuming Stannis & Melisandre's voodoo with Gendry's blood doesn't kill Balon & Joffrey. Joffrey has a little brother to be a puppet heir and Tywin & company to keep the army together and hold the throne. The Greyjoys have no heirs, aside Yara, who makes Robb Stark & Jon Snow look lively and charismatic.

A couple things regarding Robb Stark and his bad decisions:

The series of bad decisions that Robb made maybe weren't catastrophically stupid as the ones Ned made and there wasn't anything quite so egregious as telling Cersei what he knew and then trusting Littlefinger but rather it was a series of terrible decisions that weakened his position and undermined his mens confidence in him. That's in addition to the larger failure to simply recognize that winning the war he was fighting required a degree of ruthlessness that he proved incapable of.

In addition to breaking his vow to Frey, sending Theon to negotiate with his father and leaving Winterfell unguarded there's also things like choosing to keep Jaime in a cage in the first place which is the only reason Catelyn was then able to set him free. That was the real beginning of dissent within his own ranks. Additionally, there's mention of his decisions to keep other prisoners alive/feed them that depleted his supplies and further led to dissent. Then there was killing Carstark and on and on. Finally, and ultimately, there's his decision to trust all sorts of people, Frey most of all, that he never should have trusted.

If there's one thing that Ned's death should have taught Robb it's that he should at the very least entertain the notion of people betraying him despite their words and prepare for it. He didn't, and as a result he paid the same price. Stupid Ned Stark, Stupid Robb Stark.

 
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Replied about 1 year ago.
mtk41

I didn't notice what happened to Blackfish. He was at the feast, in the hall, at some point. But I didn't notice him there when they locked the doors and they didn't make a point of killing him. Did he escape? Is he a captive?

I imagine that idiot Edmure will be kept as a prisoner. No need to kill him, as the marriage still has value.

 
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Replied about 1 year ago.
mtk41
Quote:
Originally Posted by webdiva

I should add that this should be considered the most grievous violation of hospitality in Westeros: if you share bread and salt (i.e., a meal) with a visitor, that visitor's safety is supposed to be guaranteed. If you're planning on killing someone, you don't break bread with them ... or you wait until they've left your house. This was about the worst way that anyone could break the rules of hospitality, and there are bound to be consequences; at the least, it means that nobody -- not even the Lannisters, most likely -- will ever trust Bolton or the Freys ever again. Tywin's bought them but probably doesn't trust them. Bad news for them, as they're nowhere near as wealthy or influential as House Tyrell but will still need allies. Still, it sucks a lot more to be dead Robb Stark.

I would imagine you're correct about Walder Frey. But I don't see how Lord Bolton broke any hospitality rights. Of course, he did betray Robb so he could be not trusted just based on that. But I'm sure he's not the first person to switch sides in a war.

 
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