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sepinwall
Game of Thrones, "Mhysa" for book readers
Spoilers Included

This is a place to discuss the Game of Thrones season 3 finale if you've read all the GRRM books and want to compare and contrast the show and the books to your heart's content. Enjoy.

 
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PotatoSolution

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

 
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carey_adams

Haven't had time to watch the episode, but I get a kick out of reading Alan's review as he guesses where the plot is going to go next. Sometimes he's spot on. Usually it's a giant whiff. I really appreciate his work though, it's nice to get a show only perspective that is as well crafted as his reviews.

 
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mtk41

Last night Roose Bolton, in expressing his motivation to betray Robb Stark, mentioned that Robb "ignored his advice at every turn." Did we see that at any point in the series? I can't recall if he was involved in the Karstark decision. That might be one. But I don't recall any instances of this.

 
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mtk41

Also, other than the karstark decision, I got the impression that Robb was handling the military decisions extremely well. So if he was ignoring Roose Bolton, doesn't that imply that Bolton was giving him bad advice?

 
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mtk41

My apologies, meant to post this in the non-book readers thread. Though, since I posted it here, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask you all if this was something that was better depicted in the books. It seemed like Bolton's motivation was simply for self-advancement. I never got the impression that he was being ignored by Robb.

 
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yitzike
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtk41

My apologies, meant to post this in the non-book readers thread. Though, since I posted it here, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask you all if this was something that was better depicted in the books. It seemed like Bolton's motivation was simply for self-advancement. I never got the impression that he was being ignored by Robb.

Well, he did give Robb the line about "A flayed man has no secrets" (ie that they should flay some Lannister prisoners to find out what they know) and Robb said Ned outlawed flaying... That's really all I can think of though.

In the books, Roose led an ill-fated attack on Duskendale (where Robb loses a third of his foot) and later in the escape from said battle, he made sure his men were able to cross the river and escape first, leaving other northerners to die. From this you can see (in hindsight) that Bolton was intentionally bleeding off Robb's army whilst preserving his own men. But, ya, I guess that doesn't answer your question, sorry :-)

 
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yitzike
Spoilers Included

I was so glad to see Maester Aemon again, as well as the Greyjoys. This probably means that they'll advance the Euron/Victarion/Yara/kingsmoot plotline more next season. Likely they'll kill off Balon rather early on.

 
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Replied over 1 year ago.
aamadis
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtk41

Also, other than the karstark decision, I got the impression that Robb was handling the military decisions extremely well. So if he was ignoring Roose Bolton, doesn't that imply that Bolton was giving him bad advice?

From the beginning Robb and Roose Bolton had different ideas about how to wage war. In the first episode Roose appears in he counsels Robb to kill all of their Lannister prisoners because they are eating up their dwindling food stores. Or at least to torture the prisoners to get information out of them. Roose has a cruel practicality. Rob wants to follow the honorable path. As the war continues it's clear that Robb is losing so Roose jumps ship. Robb may have been handling the most of the military decisions well*, but there's more to war than that and in the end he wasn't ruthless or cunning enough to win. Maybe if he hadn't let his bannermen talk him into claiming himself King in the North he would have had a chance. He could have joined forces with Stannis who he recognized as the true heir.

*Most but not all. Remember how Robb bungled the battle of the Stone Mill. I never understood this in the books either, and this was one of the things that soured me against Robb. If you have a clever plan to draw your enemy into a particular territory but don't actually want to defeat that enemy, you should tell that plan to the person in charge of this duty. Robb's decision to put Edmure in this position without al the facts was pure arrogance n his part. He assumed Edmure would not be capable of anything more than just being an annoyance to the Lannisters. Then when Edmure made an unwanted victory he blamed Edmure for his own poor leadership.

 
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mtk41
Quote:
Originally Posted by aamadis

From the beginning Robb and Roose Bolton had different ideas about how to wage war. In the first episode Roose appears in he counsels Robb to kill all of their Lannister prisoners because they are eating up their dwindling food stores. Or at least to torture the prisoners to get information out of them. Roose has a cruel practicality. Rob wants to follow the honorable path. As the war continues it's clear that Robb is losing so Roose jumps ship. Robb may have been handling the most of the military decisions well*, but there's more to war than that and in the end he wasn't ruthless or cunning enough to win. Maybe if he hadn't let his bannermen talk him into claiming himself King in the North he would have had a chance. He could have joined forces with Stannis who he recognized as the true heir.

*Most but not all. Remember how Robb bungled the battle of the Stone Mill. I never understood this in the books either, and this was one of the things that soured me against Robb. If you have a clever plan to draw your enemy into a particular territory but don't actually want to defeat that enemy, you should tell that plan to the person in charge of this duty. Robb's decision to put Edmure in this position without al the facts was pure arrogance n his part. He assumed Edmure would not be capable of anything more than just being an annoyance to the Lannisters. Then when Edmure made an unwanted victory he blamed Edmure for his own poor leadership.

Thanks for the insight in paragraph one.

And that's a very interesting point in your second paragraph. I'm not sure I completely agree with it, though. In a military setup, I think it's fair and reasonable to expect your officers to follow orders regardless of whether or not they understand why those orders exist. Also, communicating your intentions carries greater risk: the message can get intercepted, you can be betrayed, etc. I kind of feel that one is still on Edmure. If your commanding officer tells you to stay, you stay. It would have helped if he had a better idea of the larger picture, but communicating that larger view may have carried extra risk.

I'm assuming for the above that communication was being carried out by messenger or raven. If Robb and Edmure were in the same room and I missed it, that kind of cancels out my feeling.

 
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Replied over 1 year ago.
aamadis
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtk41

Thanks for the insight in paragraph one.

And that's a very interesting point in your second paragraph. I'm not sure I completely agree with it, though. In a military setup, I think it's fair and reasonable to expect your officers to follow orders regardless of whether or not they understand why those orders exist. Also, communicating your intentions carries greater risk: the message can get intercepted, you can be betrayed, etc. I kind of feel that one is still on Edmure. If your commanding officer tells you to stay, you stay. It would have helped if he had a better idea of the larger picture, but communicating that larger view may have carried extra risk.

I'm assuming for the above that communication was being carried out by messenger or raven. If Robb and Edmure were in the same room and I missed it, that kind of cancels out my feeling.

I always felt that if Robb's grand plan hinged on Edmure holding Riverrun and nothing else, he could have spared a "Do NOT engage the Lannisters" in his orders. Instead all he says is "Hold Rivverrun." Maybe this was clearer in the books.

 
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