'Treme' co-creator David Simon clarifies show's future
Writer would like New Orleans drama to end after four seasons, but the choice is up to HBO
Won't bow, don't know how: "Treme" could end after four seasons, or possibly after the upcoming third.
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Ever since the "Lost" producers cut a deal with ABC to conclude the series after six seasons, it's become fashionable for people to say Show X or Y would be wise to set an end date, even though most of the TV business works under the assumption that the longer a show lasts, the better it is financially, if not creatively. HBO doesn't operate according to those rules, and even within HBO, David Simon marches to his own drummer, which is why he's begun suggesting that "Treme" should probably end after four seasons - even though at the moment the show is only guaranteed three.
As first reported by New Orleans Times-Picayune TV critic and all-around "Treme" expert Dave Walker (whose "Treme" Explained pieces are essential reading after every episode), Simon, co-creator Eric Overmyer and producer George Pelecanos recently got together to discuss the long-term arc of the series, and concluded that four seasons would probably be the ideal length. Simon then sent a memo to HBO explaining that and detailing their plans for that hypothetical fourth season.
Since Walker's piece was published earlier this week, the details have gotten mangled in certain places in that usual game-of-Telephone way that the Internet operates, so I emailed Simon for some clarification.
"It seems to be out there that i said we would be doing four seasons," Simon wrote back. "I didn't say that exactly. I told Dave Walker that the writer-producers met twice over the hiatus for a week at a time and plotted all the storylines and determined that two more seasons was the optimum for the vast majority of characters, for the theme, and practical for the history of post-Katrina New Orleans. That we would have a hard time finishing in three, or, unless some other avenues for storytelling revealed themselves organically, extending the drama to five seasons."
At the same time, he recognizes that it's entirely up to HBO bosses Michael Lombardo and Richard Plepler to decide whether they want a fourth season, and that "HBO has made no decision and I don't expect a decision until we meet with them -- at the earliest."
If the show sticks to a timeline where each season begins roughly a year after the one before it started, we would need a fifth season to get through the New Orleans Saint's Super Bowl win and the BP oil spill, which seem the kind of good news/horrible news mix that would be appropriate for a David Simon-style finale. But it may be that Simon and company don't want to take the characters that far, or else that there will be longer chronological gaps between the events of seasons two and three, and then between three and the hypothetical four.
(HBO hasn't yet announced a premiere date for the third season, but based on precedent, expect sometime in the spring.)
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Login or create a HitFix account Login SignupDan3320
November 4, 2011 at 3:19PM EST Reply to CommentTreme is one of those shows that I don't think needs a set end date. I think it's because the show is much more character-driven than plot-driven. I am usually a big fan of end dates, but I could watch the Treme characters for 10 seasons!
downbound
November 4, 2011 at 4:21PM EST Reply to CommentI think 4 or 5 seasons is perfect and it should end with the Saints win and the BP spill. Of course, after four or five seasons of growth and learning, the characters would be more able to face the next crisis together, yada yada.
Sareeta
November 4, 2011 at 4:38PM EST Reply to CommentI just hope David Simon is given the opportunity to wrap things up, even if that means season 3 is the final season.
DougMac
November 4, 2011 at 4:50PM EST Reply to CommentWhile Treme doesn't seem to need an end date for storytelling purposes, the actors and other creative staff probably appreciate knowing when they'll be looking for the next job.
Richard Crow
November 4, 2011 at 6:57PM EST Reply to CommentWhat happened to the HBO executives who just said that they'd "keep making Game of Thrones forever"? So David "I spent three years writing Wolverine Origins" Benioff is now more respected than David Simon at HBO? Simon still has to play the "we might cancel your show if you don't play by our rules" game? After Corner, Wire, and Generation Kill they still won't let him tell his stories as he wants them?
If Simon says he needs five seasons they should give it to him. If Simon asked for a 1:1 scale of the Superdome HBO should oblige him at this point. What possibly could be running through HBO's mind to not be on the same page as their most talented writer?
sepinwall Many, many, many more people watch Game of Thrones than watch Treme. That HBO ordered a third season was itself a bit of a surprise.
November 4, 2011 at 6:58PM EST
November 4, 2011 at 7:19PM ESTAlan's being GENEROUS to the audience that watches "Treme" and to HBO's decision to order a third season. It's not a surprise, it's an act of pure creative dedication that HBO ordered a third season of "Treme." That HBO ordered a *second* season was a surprise. That they ordered a third season was charity and proof that HBO gives David Simon every benefit of the doubt that it would be possible to give an auteur if you're a for-profit cable network.
That "Treme" exists at all is proof of HBO's dedication to David Simon. That it will exist for a guaranteed three seasons defies any financial logic.
Comparing "Treme" to "Game of Thrones" on any *tangible* level is impossible. That doesn't mean you can't prefer "Treme." You TOTALLY can. But whether you're talking viewers, Emmys, ancillary profit, etc, it's just not a discussion.
-Daniel
lztouchthedream I don't know where you're getting that HBO 'won't let him' do anything. It sounds like HBO hasn't even been brought in to the conversation, and that talk of four seasons is all from Simon and the creative team, that that's how much time they need to tell the stories they have in mind.
November 4, 2011 at 8:02PM ESTwebdiva I'll stipulate right up front that HBO has been very generous with David Simon and with Treme, to a degree that network broadcast doesn't have the guts or brains for -- and I'm not dissing Games, which I enjoyed but nowhere near as much as Treme. But my point is this: what HBO's ratings for those two shows really tell us is that there are a LOT more overgrown fanboys out there in the audience than there are adults willing to watch drama that is based in uncomfortable contemporary history with political overtones that would make any sane person furious. I'm not knocking George Martin, but he's no David Simon and he sure ain't Steinbeck or Shakespeare. So what we have is a situation wherein the ratings (and revenues) for shows like Games allow HBO to produce shows like The Wire and Treme and other great dramas of high quality. It's cross-subsidization of the kind you're far more likely to see on PBS, and kudos aplenty to HBO for being willing to do that.
November 7, 2011 at 2:31AM ESTThat said, I'm hoping for five seasons of Treme, knowing that there's more than enough real history made during that fifth year to keep the characters busy and give them plenty to cope with and endure. More than enough to keep good drama afloat -- but whether that's the story Simon wants to tell for that fifth year is another matter entirely. There's good material there, but he may have something else (and some other ending) in mind.
Ted
November 4, 2011 at 7:13PM EST Reply to Comment"If the show sticks to a timeline where each season begins roughly a year after the one before it started, we would need a fifth season to get through the New Orleans Saint's Super Bowl win and the BP oil spill"
I've never seen this show, and now I'm sure never will since that just sounds appalling. I can't imagine caring about a show whose story arc relies on lining up the timing with real world events like that.
Rob Your loss, it's a great show!
November 6, 2011 at 1:46AM ESTwebdiva Truly, REALLY your loss: don't let some cockamamie misunderstanding on your part keep you from watching a genuinely great show. There's nothing else like it on TV.
November 7, 2011 at 2:34AM ESTgoirishornot
November 6, 2011 at 8:00PM EST Reply to CommentIf "Treme" continues to that time period, given the way it approached the issue of the new minstrels this past season (the way popular culture under neo-liberal capitalism channels black radical artistic potential down non-threatening, profit-making entertainment paths), it would be interesting to see how Simon handled the Saints Super Bowl win. He must see such a commercial media cultivated pop culture spectacle, inspiring civic unity through commercial exploitation, as at best problematic. (I actually don't see how anyone on the political left could not see professional sports in general, including the NCAA, as anything but problematic, not least from the perspective of the subjectivization and exploitation of black boys as effectively a gladiator class, which is becoming a world-wide phenomenon, the ESPN mission.) With a popular consensus as to the game's positive significance, I can imagine Simon employing "The Wire"'s practice of using popular culture tropes ironically to critique that consensus. That would be fun.
webdiva Then again, it may be that many of us on the progressive left (especially those from or in New Orleans who lived through that bloody mess) simply cut the crap on the didactic but useless philosophical overtones and just dealt with the their lives as they were. And were willing to watch the characters on Treme do the same. It was their collective story being told. To folks from New Orleans, they'd been beaten down so long from so many sides over the manmade disaster that followed Katrina that they didn't (and still don't) spend much time deconstructing the rad-chic analysis of what went on: they just really needed -- and wanted -- a Super Bowl win to make the collective populace have **SOMETHING** to feel good about that they could also all share. That poor city really needed a a win to boost its residents' psyches and keep them believing and holding on. And Shrub's administration sure wasn't giving them that. The Saints did. It's exactly that simple. No radical analysis needed.
November 7, 2011 at 2:44AM ESTwebdiva BTW, historically all too many men have ***ALWAYS*** thrown themselves into the 'gladiator' class and probably always will. It's called testosterone, and it creates aggression that needs to be worked off in some societally acceptable and relatively nonthreatening way. Many men do this completely willingly. At least in sports, the 'gladiators' don't necessarily have to die.
November 7, 2011 at 2:53AM ESTSchmoker
November 9, 2011 at 12:45PM EST Reply to CommentAll I know is that I was thrilled to a get a third season of Treme, which right now is probably my favorite show on television. I feel HBO has done very well by me, and David Simon has been even better by me. And once Treme is done, then Simon will probably just go do something else I love.
It's been win-win all the around, and likely will continue to be so.
Jamie
December 1, 2011 at 5:08PM EST Reply to CommentIt would be a shame to not have four seasons of Treme. It is a wonderful show and will attract even more viewers on replay. It's not a usual story just a great one with great music.