Review: 'Game of Thrones' - 'The Old Gods and the New': I'll take the high road
The Stark children all learn tough lessons
Sansa (Sophie Turner) and Joffrey (Jack Gleeson) have a rough day on "Game of Thrones."
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"You can't tame a wild thing. You can't trust a wild thing." -Halfhand
Ned Stark is long gone from our narrative, but all of the children he raised — including the bastard Jon Snow and the former boy hostage Theon — are still very important to the narrative (okay, maybe not Rickon), and all are struggling to travel over new terrain this week, often making impulsive decisions based on belief and not brainpower.
And because most of the stories lean on the extended Stark family, and in some cases — particularly Jon Snow's adventures up north — we spend much more time than usual in a particular area, "The Old Gods and the New" wound up feeling less choppy than some of this season's previous hours.
Theon and Jon Snow wind up the two most dominant figures, and it turns out that Ned's two not-quite-sons both should have paid closer attention to his beheading technique. Theon succeeds in capturing Winterfell, then makes a mess of executing Ser Rodrik — an act that, even more than the siege itself, irrevocably casts his lot in with the family that bore him over the one that raised him. Theon may well be able to hold onto his new prize (especially if his sister's forces can make it to Winterfell before Robb's), but his heart's not entirely in betraying the Starks, and he's still too obsessed with rank and title and prestige. He may have paid the iron price to be called "prince" rather than "milord," but that's not what he should be concerning himself with, especially since Osha outwits him and escapes with Bran, Rickon and Hodor(!) in tow, removing any leverage Theon might have hoped for when Robb's forces inevitably show up. People keep warning Theon that he hasn't thought this through, and they appear to be right.
Theon at least succeeds at killing Rodrik, even if it takes him forever and a day to do so, where Jon Snow doesn't have it in him to execute Ygritte. (And is in position to let her run away because the more seasoned Ranges for some silly reason decide to leave him alone to do it.) As with Theon, he proves tremendously vulnerable to the charms and tenacity of a wildling woman, and it seems only a matter of time before our man — who's repeatedly described as "stupid, but brave" — either falls into bed with her or lets her get the better of him because he thought they were going to fall into bed together.
Arya's smarter than either of her quasi-brothers, but she gets too clever for her own good when she steals an important communique of Tywin's and is caught before she can find a way to send it to Robb. She survives thanks to a bit of luck (the soldier who catches her is too illiterate to read the message and arrest her on the spot) and thanks to the efficient wetwork of Jaqen, which leaves her with only one deadly wish remaining.
Even more tense than Arya's near-arrest is an earlier scene where Littlefinger comes to visit Tywin while Arya is busy cleaning up the table. Director David Nutter is a suspense expert in general, so it's no surprise that he does such an effective job of choreographing this little dance to show just how hard Arya is working to avoid letting Lord Baelish see her face, and to leave just enough doubt in our minds as to whether he recognized her. Great direction, and the expected great work from Maisie Williams.
Robb gets less to do in this hour, but he's reminded by Catelyn that being King in the North brings greater responsibilities that will require personal sacrifice. He can't pursue any kind of romance with Talisa the nurse because he was promised in marriage to one of crazy Walder Frey's daughters late last season (in exchange for the right to let his bannerman travel through the important gate Frey controls), and he can't go personally to liberate his brothers and defeat the treasonous Theon. Power has its advantages, but also its drawbacks.
And with Arya still in disguise (probably) and Bran and Rickon on the lam with Osha, the only Stark child still an open hostage is Sansa, who has the roughest go of it this week. The riot that Joffrey incites — and Sansa's near-rape before being rescued by the Hound(*) — is among the more unsettling sequences the show has done, a catastrophe so ugly and up close that even Joffrey seems upset by it. (So upset, in fact, that he ignores — for now — Tyrion giving him another incredibly well-deserved slap across the face.) Joffrey is so used to being in an environment where his word is law and his power is absolute that it's baffling to find himself in a circumstance where that suddenly, terrifyingly isn't true. His security guards are able to protect him the same way the Secret Service crashes the president in event of an attack, but for once the little monster can't ignore how much he's despised and by how many, even if it's his bride-to-be who nearly suffers horribly for his sins, even though she hates the king just as much as the rioters.
(*) Do not mess with the Hound. Seriously. Shame we'll never see a Hound/Drogo throwdown.
All of Ned's children (legitimate or otherwise) learn valuable, at times painful lessons. But they're still alive to learn them, which is better than you can say for many as things get bloodier and bloodier.
Some other thoughts:
* I wouldn't quite call Dany "stupid, but brave," but she's definitely leading with her heart — and her dreams (even if her dreams tend to come true — over her head, and the spice king wants no part of that. I'll be curious to see who was responsible for snatching the dragons. Dany already put all her faith in conquering Westeros in Khal Drogo's hands, and he's long gone. Now all of her plans have been built around the wee little fire-breathers, and they are, for the moment, being lugged up the steps towards an imposing tower somewhere in Qarth.
* Tywin is a cold sonuvabitch, and it's not an accident that he produced two children as horrible as Cersei and Jaime (who in turn produced a grandchild even more horrible in Joffrey), but it's funny to see him through Arya's eyes in the scenes at Harrenhal. To her, he's the one who stopped The Tickler from torturing everyone, he's the one who keeps a (relatively) cool head in meetings with his advisors, and he's the one who treats her with as much respect as an underage female prisoner is likely to get. So long as Tyrion's around, Tywin's at best a distant second for the Most Likable Lannister crown, but for the moment he's among the show's less hiss-worthy villains.
* I don't know what it costs HBO to shoot those north scenes in Iceland, but it is worth every penny. Wow, are those sequences gorgeous.
* For a minor character, Ser Rodrik dies very well, daring Theon to be the one to swing the sword and assuring Bran and Rickon, "I'm off to see your father."
This is the last episode I've received in advance as of now. Do not expect upcoming reviews to post on Sunday at 10 for the rest of the season — and it's entirely possible that conflicts with "Mad Men" could ultimately push "Game of Thrones" reviews into sometime on Monday afternoon. I'll do what I can do, but ultimately the math is what it is. Sorry.
And finally, my attempt to keep these comments free of book spoilers has been mostly successful, but some people just don't seem to get it, or care. Once again, let me remind you of the spoiler policy as it relates to this show: we are here to TALK ABOUT THE TV SHOW AS A TV SHOW, AND NOT AN ENDLESS SERIES OF COMPARISONS TO THE BOOKS. If you want to talk about things from the books that haven't yet appeared on the show — whether they are plot points, characters we haven't met yet, still-to-be-explained motivation, etc. — please do so in the message board topic I set up for this episode. I don't care how clever or oblique you think you're being: NO BOOK DISCUSSION IN THE COMMENTS. PERIOD. Anything even vaguely over the line gets deleted, and if anyone notices a comment before I do, feel free to email me.
What did everybody else think?
Alan Sepinwall may be reached at sepinwall@hitfix.com
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Next 261 CommentsNaeem
May 6, 2012 at 10:05PM EST Reply to CommentNot to nitpick, but the Wildling woman who helps Bran and Rickon is Osha, not Asha.
WaltEagle I was going to point it out too, if only because it might be confusing since Asha is his sister's name in the books (renamed Yara for the show).
May 6, 2012 at 10:09PM ESTStephen Drabek
May 6, 2012 at 10:08PM EST Reply to CommentYou mean Osha, not Asha. Ironic, since they renamed Theon's sister from Asha to Yara to prevent confusion with Osha the wildling.
Hwat Of course those who hasn't read the books don't really care and refer to them as "sister" and "wildling" anyway ;)
May 7, 2012 at 1:34PM ESTAllen Less irony and more like an excellent demonstration on WHY they made the name change, considering this non-book reader confused Asha and Osha without even having an Asha on the show.
May 7, 2012 at 6:01PM ESTGreg Grant
May 6, 2012 at 10:09PM EST Reply to CommentGood episode. Awesome acting. But man alive, was Jon Snow the derpiest derp that ever derped. I get it, I get it, he's a dreamboat chick magnet with the Rob Lowe stubble and Mr. Fan Service tragic backstory the ladies love and can't be seen to kill a woman, but seriously, Jon, we're on a mission behind enemy lines, and this here - this is the enemy - and we have to kill her. You volunteered on this mission and forced yourself in here, and now you can't hack the job. Thanks a lot, dude.
And I loved the Spice Merchant's take down of Dany's idiotic claims with cold hard logic. I know he's supposed to be a bad guy because he's played by an over weight man who slicks his hair back and threatens to flog servants, but I'm on his side. Little Blonde Princess has dreams? How precious. I'm trying to run a business here.
The only minor complaint that I have is Theon's sadexposition, "Hey, man, we had like grapnel hooks, and I was, like, totally awesome and stuff." Yes, I get that it was a budget issue, but the actor delivered the lines with all the credibility of a boxing score.
P.S., JP, the Nudity was delivered. But oddly felt unsatisfying. The violence was better.
JP The nudity this week satisfied curiosity. Like Theon I was curious to see what was under there. I should mention that I'm now curious about Talisa.
May 6, 2012 at 10:40PM ESTAll kidding aside, the story is moving forward quite rapidly now, the last two weeks have delivered that in a big way. There was a point earlier in the season when I thought the show was getting bogged down under its own weight, trying to tell too much of a story with too many characters too quickly - we haven't seen Jaime Lannister since episode one, for example - but I think it's found ts rhythm.
JIM You sir, are an idiot
May 6, 2012 at 11:03PM ESTTina As for Theon, I saw it as even more of the can't-win-for-losing in trying to get respect. He doesn't get the awed response he'd like and has to coach a boy in his lines to the crowd. Then he can't even execute a man efficiently.
May 6, 2012 at 11:16PM ESTAnd Bran's line "did you hate us all along" was chilling.
Greg Grant @Tina. Ahh, okay. So maybe he was intentionally awkward in his delivery to show how nervous he was about the whole operation and how he's totally out of his depth here. I see your point. It just looked like bad acting to me, because it was soooo wooden.
May 6, 2012 at 11:22PM ESTdigitalgal Greg. your comments were great. And funny. A great way for me to end my evening... ;)
May 6, 2012 at 11:49PM ESTkronicfatigue What kind of Austin Powers villain plot is it for the rest of Snow's crew to just leave him? He was clearly showing signs of hesitation. So they leave him, and then when he fails, all of a sudden nobody has the capability to hear out there?
May 7, 2012 at 12:24AM ESTWhy was Theon sent to the Greyjoys even though there was a non zero chance of him turning? Why not send him AND a handful of loyal people just in case he turned?
Tedd Yeah, the other Night's Watch people leaving him was kinda weird--I guess they thought he needed to be alone for his first killing of an unarmed woman? Maybe? And he did make the noise of his sword coming down on the rock.
May 7, 2012 at 2:52AM ESTAs for the Greyjoys, Robb truly trusted Theon as a brother--they've been living together since both were small children. And as to sending a handful of loyal people, well, if he had done that he'd have a handful less of loyal people than he does now. They'd be lucky to merely be imprisoned on Pike.
Ben I wouldn't be at all surprised if the other brothers are actually tracking Jon and are gauging what he can and can't do-it is bizarre that they'd leave him alone like that otherwise.
May 7, 2012 at 3:02AM ESTPod The Jon scene totally made more sense in the b- hrmhhpprh - wet sound-
May 7, 2012 at 5:16AM ESTAll kidding aside, I really liked Alfie Allen's delivery of his lines this episode. Theon is barely in control of his men, so he (Theon the character) is hamming it up in their presence. He starts acting more like his old self when his man leaves him and Osha alone.
belinda Yeah, the bit where everyone conveniently leaves Jon to kill Ygritte alone was really, really derpy. Not the kind of thing I expect to see from this show, honestly. way too plot devicey.
May 7, 2012 at 10:44AM ESTchas @KRONICFATIGUE @TEDD
May 7, 2012 at 11:14AM ESTof course they would leave him. they arent going to hold his hand every step of the way. he will either do his job or die and they dont care which. they have been fairly clear on what the world is like north of the wall.
kronicfatigue Chas - Except Jon being alive is a net plus for the crew and that woman being alive is a net negative for the crew. Why would they put themselves in danger to teach Jon a lesson?
May 7, 2012 at 12:07PM ESTbbq_hax0r Agree about GG's comments on Dany. She obviously doesn't understand her audience in Qarth.
May 7, 2012 at 1:48PM ESTSkyweir I clearly am a more deprived person than many here, I thought it obvious that the other Rangers were giving him time to rape her before he killed her, and that it was the reason they said "don't take too long". They thought the reason he wanted to do it alone was that he "wanted to do it", and left him to it....
May 7, 2012 at 4:53PM ESTFrom what I see of this show, that is what soldiers in war tend to do.
Tedd Deprived? Or depraved?
May 7, 2012 at 8:03PM ESTThat's possible, but there isn't really any indication that it's what Qhorin is getting at, and that would still be pretty dumb considering they need to move fast.
mellowjohnjohnkierig a naked tonks. i'll never watch a Harry potter movie the same way again!
May 7, 2012 at 8:55PM ESTtijde I thought Theon's wooden boasting made for a stark contrast (heh) to Bran's cool-headed "I'll never yield." Even when woken up from a dead sleep to find his home invaded and his family betrayed, Bran--the prepubescent crippled child--came off as more of a man and more confident in his manhood than "Prince" Theon. So much for Ironborn.
May 9, 2012 at 1:59AM ESTWoman As a woman, I completely felt that Jon was getting time to rape the snowwoman before killing her. Being a woman NOW means being vulnerable, even in our "civilized" times. But in the land of GoT? Please, every woman there is acutely aware that without protection, they are in danger. Perhaps this is something men can't really understand.
June 13, 2012 at 11:00AM ESTJA
May 6, 2012 at 10:09PM EST Reply to CommentThe guy who caught Arya can read. Tywin had been mocking him for making a dumb mistake but didn't mean he was actually illiterate. No one on Tywin's little council there would be.
TRAV JA - thought the same thing, he was not a soldier, more of a general, same guy that got banished by Tywin...Lorch???
May 6, 2012 at 11:31PM ESTlztouchthedream It was Amory Lorch, Arya said his name to Jaqen, not just a nickname like the Tickler.
May 6, 2012 at 11:58PM ESTPhil Tywin specifically asks him "Can you read?" and the guy doesn't say yes, but sits in awkward silence. I'm pretty sure this means he can't read.
May 7, 2012 at 9:27AM ESTBilly He couldn't read. While Tywin was mocking him he had Arya get the book with the family histories and told him to read from it and he couldn't. He also makes fun of him because his cup bearer could read better than he could.
May 7, 2012 at 9:30AM ESTtijde Between Amory's blustering and Tywin's story about Jaime's dyslexia, I assumed that Amory was just a poor reader who got careless. Tywin doesn't seem to tolerate weakness, and he'd expect his men to compensate for their own.
May 9, 2012 at 2:05AM ESTStormshadow4life
May 6, 2012 at 10:15PM EST Reply to CommentAnother amazing ep. Not much to say...I just need next week to come!!!
oh, and I saw Tonks naked :P
Jeor I did not realize until just now that Osha and Tonks are played by the same person. Thank you for blowing my mind.
May 6, 2012 at 10:22PM ESTPizpot Gargravarr She'll always be Ellie from About a Boy to me. Someone needs to call Joffrey a "squitty little shitty snot-nosed bastard".
May 7, 2012 at 6:26AM ESTDavidW Ah, so that's why I had residual positive feelings toward Osha (Tonks)!
May 7, 2012 at 6:40PM ESTJeor
May 6, 2012 at 10:16PM EST Reply to CommentI found it a bit silly when that rioter held the severed arm up in the air after the crowd killed the woman it belonged to. It felt like we were watching a zombie movie or something. But that's a minor complaint in what was otherwise a good episode.
JP The one the rioters killed was the priest, the one wishing the good will of the gods on Myrcella.
May 6, 2012 at 10:32PM ESTlztouchthedream it was actually a man, the High Septon. He is (or was) essentially the Pope of the Faith of the Seven.
May 6, 2012 at 10:36PM ESTJeor I stand corrected. But I still thought the severed arm was a cheesy touch.
May 6, 2012 at 10:40PM ESTBenS Who was playing the high septon? It was a little cheesy with the arm in the air, but effective I thought...
May 7, 2012 at 1:07AM EST
Was the High Septon played by the newsreader from Rome?
May 7, 2012 at 5:02AM ESTJP The news reader was Ian McNiece. Probably his best known role was Hugh Grant's surveying partner in the Englishman Who Went Up a Hill and Came Down a Mountain. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0573862/
May 7, 2012 at 8:53AM ESTMarlo Fun fact - McNiece actually was cast in the pilot as Illyrio but the schedule didn't work out.
May 7, 2012 at 10:53AM ESTThe doctor Best known from the Englishman Who Went Up a Hil... ? Seriously? How about Churchill in Doctor Who, or Baron Harkkonen in the Dune mini-series?
May 7, 2012 at 4:19PM ESTThe guy who played the High Septon was David Verrey, who was also in Doctor Who; one of the farting aliens in the 9th Doctor episode where they take over the government.
Jane
May 6, 2012 at 10:45PM EST Reply to CommentI have to say that to see Tonks naked is wrong, very, very wrong!
Where was Jorah?
Joe W Dany ordered to him to go out and find her a ship. Guess they're pulling double duty
May 6, 2012 at 11:02PM ESTMahmoud Fayed He was sharing a drink with Davos and Littlefimble as they all contemplated the kind of suffering that never ends; being friendzoned/ignored by their beloved ones.
May 6, 2012 at 11:14PM ESTMoony Good job by Remus Lupin.
May 6, 2012 at 11:15PM ESTMBG If seeing Tonks naked is wrong, I don't wanna be right.
May 7, 2012 at 12:55AM ESTJane @Joe W: well, I hope there's a good excuse for this.
May 7, 2012 at 1:10AM EST@Mahmound Fayed: LOL. THAT is image! And a good plot for a crack fanfic :)
the minister [sits down to write another volume of hot Tonks on Werewolf action]
May 8, 2012 at 10:35PM ESTSteve
May 6, 2012 at 11:16PM EST Reply to CommentI assumed that the other rangers left Jon Snow alone with Ygritte so that he could have his way with her before he killed her.
Thoma Wouldn't be that. The Night's Watch is sworn to celibacy
May 7, 2012 at 2:08AM ESTTedd I didn't think that either, I thought that it was just Qhorin recognizing that Jon needed a moment before he killed an unarmed woman for the first time.
May 7, 2012 at 2:57AM ESTThough Jon wouldn't be the first Crow to ignore that particular oath--they mentioned in the first season there's a little town not far from the Wall with a brothel that caters to the Night's Watch.
bbq_hax0r I didn't think they were sworn to celibacy, I thought they just swore off woman (meaning families) as someone mentioned them sneaking off to houses of ill-repute.
May 7, 2012 at 1:12PM ESTBG Agreed - I believe the rule is no wives/family... beyond that it's fair game.
May 7, 2012 at 2:22PM ESTMattH Quoting from memory, I believe the oath says "take no wives and father no children." Seeing as contraception doesn't seem to exist in Westeros, I think celibacy is implied.
May 7, 2012 at 3:17PM ESTSkyweir Sworn, yes. But in practice, with a wilding woman? I think they would overlook it. In season 1, they talked about how officers went to a brothel now and again.
May 7, 2012 at 4:56PM ESTI took the "don't take too long" comment to mean just that, killing an unarmed woman would take Snow seconds, so it clearly had to be something else they thought he would do.
the goat From S1Ep2 when Tyrion says he's going to visit the Wall, Jaime says "Don't tell me you're thinking of taking the Black?" Tyrion responds "And go celibate? The whores would go begging from Dorne to Casterly Rock." Later, when Jon & Sam are scrubbing benches, they also talk about it, & the fact that lots of them disregard it.
May 7, 2012 at 7:11PM ESTGuest He was about to kill her, so the whole "take no wives and father no children" thing doesn't fly.
May 8, 2012 at 9:34AM ESTWilding They're not supposed to run away either, but the head guy admits that it happens after Jon came back from running.
June 13, 2012 at 11:04AM ESTWhat happens in the North stays in the North.
sukeyna
May 6, 2012 at 11:28PM EST Reply to CommentAnother excellent episode! The opening scene was so intense it had me on the edge of my seat. I'm back to hating Theon with a passion after feeling a little sorry for him because of his idiot father.
RIP Ser Rodrik. It was heartbreaking to see him die, and Bran and Rickon's crying almost had me in tears. Natalie Tena is doing a great job as Osha.
I felt Arya's anxiety in every scene. Maisie Williams has chemistry with everybody!
Ghost, Summer and Shaggy Dog!
the minister <-- wonders if he's the only one who thought of the elevator scene in Drive during the beheading.
May 8, 2012 at 10:36PM ESTWaltEagle
May 6, 2012 at 11:28PM EST Reply to CommentI definitely think Littlefinger recognized Arya. I didn't think there was much ambiguity about it, either, when he brought up Catelyn and emphasized the word "daughters".
Greg Grant The great thing about a shtheel like Littlefinger is that you don't quite know if he knew, or was just suspecting and testing Arya's response. That being said, I do think Littlefinger knows, or if he didn't at the time, he would have asked around and put it all together. Guy is a smart little weasel.
May 6, 2012 at 11:32PM ESTLJA Agree. I didn't think it was ambiguous at all. I think he didn't speak up b/c he's considering his options. (Pure speculation, I haven't read the books.)
May 6, 2012 at 11:42PM ESTnic919 I agree. It was too much of a coincidence for Littlefinger to mention that as Arya was walking away. I think that he will tell Catelyn and use that info for leverage somehow.
May 6, 2012 at 11:44PM ESTJP If he does know, anyone want to take bets on whether he'll become Arya's third name? (Also speculation)
May 6, 2012 at 11:48PM ESTkeith After she spilled the wine his jaw droppped - I thought that was the moment of recognition.
May 7, 2012 at 6:51AM ESTbuffalosoldier Knowledge is power.
May 7, 2012 at 9:39AM ESTAnother chip to use on Catelyn.
bbq_hax0r I think that's the beauty of the scene, I mean Littlefinger was tasked with finding Arya (from Cersei, correct) and so it is something he would discuss with Tywin. I lean towards him NOT knowing as he probably would have thought the Lannisters just found Arya and put her to work as a hostage and he may have casually dropped a "so where'd you find the other Stark?"
May 7, 2012 at 1:15PM ESTWell done scene.
Hwat @Illyria And so, you asshole, have spoiled what will happen. Shut up about the books.
May 7, 2012 at 1:46PM ESTBG Seriously Illyria, that's not the least bit helpful or insightful to anyone. We don't want to hear about the books.
May 7, 2012 at 2:25PM ESTVictorycurtis I agree that referencing the books is (and should be) off limits but I would like HWAT to explain how Illyria's comments spoiled anything? If the scenes with Littlefinger and Tywin Lannister did not appear in the book, then no one knows what the outcome of these scenes will be (whether you read the books or not). Folks really ought to just relaz.
May 7, 2012 at 3:15PM ESTguest Victory,
May 7, 2012 at 5:25PM ESTIt is CRYSTAL CLEAR that NO book discussion is allowed. End of story.
Unless you (in the general sense) read like Tywin's captain. In that case, you are forgiven for ignoring Alan's warning.
Tedd Whoah, Illyria, calm down. NO book discussion is allowed--just because Alan hasn't deleted it doesn't mean its OK. One could theoretically infer quite a bit from your statement, but I won't elaborate. Then again, I'm a semi functional retard, so what do I know.
May 7, 2012 at 8:08PM ESTsepinwall Illyria's comments (all of them) have been deleted. Sometimes, a bad comment slips through the cracks. Again, feel free to email me if something seems questionable. If I agree and haven't already noticed, I'll punt it.
May 7, 2012 at 8:37PM ESTsukeyna
May 6, 2012 at 11:32PM EST Reply to CommentIt's always a great episode when Joffrey gets slapped! We even got the added pleasure of seeing him pelted with cow shit!
nic919 I hoping that in all the confusion that it was his arm that was ripped off. Alas it was not.
May 6, 2012 at 11:46PM ESTMBG Bitch got imp-slapped.
May 7, 2012 at 12:51AM ESTfulton Thank you, MBG, for that term.
May 7, 2012 at 6:55AM ESTstevehbk "imp-slapped" Damn, that's good.
May 7, 2012 at 10:26AM ESTAJ @MBG - We would also have accepted "Tyrion: The Pimp-Hand of the King".
May 7, 2012 at 12:50PM ESTthe minister The only question left is "what Led Zeppelin song for the endless slap loop?"
May 8, 2012 at 10:38PM EST(you really should google "led zeppelin tyrion slap" if that makes no sense...)
Dr. Dunkenstein
May 7, 2012 at 12:04AM EST Reply to CommentNice to see that the stupid, stupid Ned Stark meme can live on in his bastard son.
Although, that said, has any female character on this show died a violent onscreen death?
Robert Hmmm... do you count Sansa's direwolf, Lady?
May 7, 2012 at 3:03AM ESTDan "it is known" that Dany's handmaiden appeared to meet a violent end under the empty dragon cages. The witch that cursed Drago met a fiery doom. Joffrey's birthday present is likely pushing daisies.
May 7, 2012 at 5:20AM ESTPod I guess some of the little Baratheon bastards back in ep 1 may have been girls?
May 7, 2012 at 5:23AM EST...Okay, that was a stretch.
John What about the witch that Daenerys burned at the end of Season 1?
May 7, 2012 at 8:03AM ESTDr. Dunkenstein Yeah, the witch at the end of season one is probably the only example that works(the handmaiden, the birthday present and Lady all being examples of violent offscreen deaths)
May 7, 2012 at 1:38PM ESTWhich isn't to say it's a deficiency they need to correct or anything, just that when Stupid, Stupid Jon Snow was lining up his sword my gut reaction was "that's not something they would show" and as such his inability to do it seemed a little telegraphed.
Demerol Was B-Day Present Girl killed? I know Joffrey was holding that Crossbow, but I think they'd have given us more hints if he had actually killed her. And Joffrey never killed anyone himself, the little coward. Especially in his own bedroom!
May 7, 2012 at 4:25PM ESTIt was just hardcore severe torture from my perspective.
Meg
May 7, 2012 at 12:25AM EST Reply to CommentAlan, any thoughts on how the season is going now that we're over half way through it? I'd love to see some reflection on the show's strengths and weaknesses up 'til now.
Blaze Yeah! There's always a season Post Mortem in the end, what about a season half-life?
May 7, 2012 at 4:27PM ESTIt's a great idea Meg
the minister Nooooooo don't do eeeeeet!
May 8, 2012 at 10:42PM ESTIf there ever was an argument for putting shows up on demand full-season style like Netflix does, Game of Thrones is it.
I keep saying I'll wait till the end, but then I just junkie out & watch the latest, le grrrrrrrrrr.
This show is made to be watched in a daylong orgy of beer & loafing & orange cheetoe dust on your black T-shirt with a greyscale image of Tyrion slapping Joffery.
A savage journey to the heart of the Westeros dream.
ronald @the minister
May 10, 2012 at 6:07AM ESTgreat mixing of game of thrones spin on a Hunter S Thompson excerpt
Scott
May 7, 2012 at 12:51AM EST Reply to CommentI get that this story comes from books so it's a bit limited in its storytelling flexibility but as a tv viewer and not a book reader the whole Dany story is repetitive. It's been a season and a half and every week she's subjected to one further degradation while being completely separated from the rest of the story in any way. I'd say she's the Kenny of South Park except that Kenny actually interacts with the other characters. I've started to say to the television each week "YOU HURT DANY, YOU ********!"
I get it, she has a long road in order to get back to where she wants but this is a bit much. I'm willing to stipulate that she's had to suffer extensively, but after a season and a half it's time to move forward with her.
timothymcn Ughh - thank you. I'm always mystified by calls for more Daenerys. I groan whenever we go back to her story.
May 7, 2012 at 2:50AM ESTPizpot Gargravarr Yeah, I like Emilia Clark and Iain Glen (and Nonso Anozie, although he hasn't done all that much yet), but Dany's storyline does feel somewhat stagnant and far-removed this season. She's also acting kind of irritatingly at the moment, I feel.
May 7, 2012 at 6:38AM ESTbbq_hax0r I am far less interested and likking of Dany this season. Last season she was one of my favorites, now I loathe her. She seems entitled and talking about all she's going to do, when it's quite obvious that the people of Qarth are all about what you have done (e.g. them starting every speech mentioning their humble beginnings).
May 7, 2012 at 1:18PM ESTI think she is easily redeemable, but her character has fallen off the season (maybe it's supposed to as she matures into a better leader and accomplishes more).
bbq_hax0r Loathe is hyperbole... shes just unlikeable and annoying.
May 7, 2012 at 1:19PM ESTHwat She does not, just not in a direction you'd like. I would have thought it was clear by now that this is not a show about movement, but about character.
May 7, 2012 at 1:49PM ESTSkyweir Daennerys is not a heroic character any more than anyone else in GoT is, I think. That is why I like her, in fact. She is fiery, idealistic and has reclaimed her power from powerless beginnings, true enough. But she is also arrogant, entitled, naive and sometimes ruthless. In other words, she is a Targaryen princess, not a fairytale hero. They did not conquer Westors by being nice.
May 7, 2012 at 5:00PM ESTthe minister My theory is this: the show points out some of martin's bad plotting / timelining.
May 8, 2012 at 10:44PM ESTI like Dany just fine, but ideally she shouldn't have shown up till say book 3.
tijde Dany does get a lot of crap thrown at her. (Unfortunately much more than Joffrey does.) Personally, I mark Dany's journey by how her reactions progress. She's reminding me of her brother now, with the crazy temper and sense of entitlement. Since he represented the height of power in her little world for most of her life, it makes sense that she'd overcorrect a little when going from "terrified child" into "powerful woman and queen." I just hope she wises up soon, because there's a fine line between righteous fury and temper tantrum.
May 9, 2012 at 2:31AM ESTBenS
May 7, 2012 at 1:10AM EST Reply to CommentI think Theon has the dullest sword ever. Jeez.
BenS And any time Joffrey gets slapped, it's a good episode.
May 7, 2012 at 1:11AM ESTW.A.Wilson If you think you can take off somebodys head with one swing, I'd love to see you try. Just cause it happens in movies doesn't mean its realistic. It takes an incredible amount of force
May 7, 2012 at 12:54PM ESTbbq_hax0r I understand the realism aspect, but I think that Theon butchering the decapitation (pun intended!) was supposed to show how unprepared he is. Clearly a graphic scene, intended to serve a purpose about Theon. Realism or not -- we've established in this world it's possible (Ned both doing it and receiving it).
May 7, 2012 at 1:21PM ESTBG W.A. Wilson... seriously? You'd love to see him attempt a decapitation? That's sick dude, it's just a show.
May 7, 2012 at 1:49PM ESTjoel Seriously, there's a reason why guillotine blades are so damn big and heavy and why Ned's executioner uses that massive sword that about 4 inches across. He had no idea what sort of force and energy was going to required, and even though he's expert bowman he doesn't have the upper-body strength to pull that off.
May 7, 2012 at 3:25PM ESTAlthough in retrospect, it points how ridiculously powerful the Mountain is: he took off his horse's head with nearly a single blow.
the minister Ned's executioner uses Ned's sword Ice. So does Ned in book one on the Black Brother deserter.
May 8, 2012 at 10:47PM ESTIt's six feet long. very heavy, & made of magically(?) sharp steel.
Probably anyone who could heft the thing with any dexterity could lop off a head in one blow.
geoff_rose
May 7, 2012 at 1:18AM EST Reply to CommentWell, I wouldn't say Ser Rodrik died "well" or even "with dignity" but he certainly went out with class. Until Theon was a prat about the beheading. Did he not get the reason those execution blades are so fecking large?
The Tywin/Arya scenes are officially stealing the entire show. We need Game of Arya vs. Tywin web spin-off stat. The discussions of their fathers was brilliant. When Arya said her father was killed by "loyalty," and Tywin compliments her for recognizing that, my heart sang a little.
Jon Snow/Theon Greyjoy, such idiots tonight. There could be arguments made for why they made the decisions they have, but given they've been shown as more cunning in the past, it's sad to see them suddenly grasp the Idiot Ball so tight.
My favorite Iceland moment was actually from last week, when the Watch first stood upon the stony keep of the First Men. That one lone watchman with the shield and spear. Very epic.
Here's to seeing the scheming, stabbing and sexing continue on. Hopefully with some more ass-kicking for Brienne to do (was SO hoping she'd get to do more than stand in the background with Cate's return to Robb's camp).
timothymcn
May 7, 2012 at 2:47AM EST Reply to CommentThe "Previously on Game of Thrones," kinda spoiled the ending for me. So possible spoiler if you didn't see it: but doesn't it seem pretty goddamn likely that its the warlocks who stole the dragons? It would've been likely already, but the inclusion of the warlocks in the "Previously," opening and their exclusion from the rest of the episode all but confirm it.
Greg Grant I thought the same thing, given that they specifically named dropped "House of Undying." However, it is weird how the attack was carried out. Wouldn't warlocks be more of a potions and magic tricks sort of thing, rather than straight up massacre? And also, the Bloated Stringer Bell/Black Merchant personally vouched for Dany and her people and put them in his house. An assault on his house is an assault on him, and it would seem very, very risky for high ranking members of this society to do that sort of thing as it undermines the principles of how that society functions. It probably are the warlocks, but either they're desperate, or have gone whacky, because they seem to be breaking the cardinal rules of hospitality and society of Qath.
May 7, 2012 at 3:02AM ESTPod If it was the warlocks, using potions and magic tricks would have given them away instantly. This way they can plausibly claim it's not them.
May 7, 2012 at 5:28AM ESTAlso, Bloated Stringer Bell is the best nickname I've heard yet for the fat merchant dude with the impossible to spell name.
bbq_hax0r Purely guessing, I'm thinking Ducksauce stole the Dragons to leverage Dany. I imagine he feels slighted by offering her help (for marriage) and then having to set up meetings so she can try and find help elsewhere. He's also close enough to know when Loras would be gone and when she'd be gone. My thoughts, purely speculative.
May 7, 2012 at 1:24PM ESTlouisjab The dragon thief is seen climbing the stairs towards the warlock's tower at the end. They always meant to tell people it's the warlocks. However, things are not what they seems in GOT and it could very well be someone else.
May 7, 2012 at 7:36PM ESTtijde Aside from the plausible deniability, which by itself is a good point, the only magic we've seen from the warlocks is the sudden appearance act, right? Seems like that trick could be pretty easily accomplished with misdirection and illusion Didn't Stringer Ducksauce even openly mock it as a parlor trick, or something similar? Maybe the warlocks are fakes.
May 9, 2012 at 2:42AM ESTgregel
May 7, 2012 at 2:56AM EST Reply to CommentThe wilding woman storyline better amount to something because it really slowed down this episode. Great cliffhanger though.
Billybumbler You know nothing, Gregel Snow.
May 7, 2012 at 4:50AM ESTkeith I though that too. In fact the whole 'north of the wall' story is doing nothing for me. I suppose he'll have lots of dopey learning experiences and then lead an army to claim the throne - the same as everyone else. Is that the point of this? Don't get me wrong, I like it, but I'm not sure I'm interested in the underlying premise, if that's what it is.
May 7, 2012 at 6:45AM ESTW.A.Wilson hahaha uh oh BillyBumbler you better watch out, your comment might get deleted
May 7, 2012 at 12:55PM ESTnominalize I sense that Ygritte's grinding at the end was a bit of foreshadowing (they already bicker like an old married couple). But Jon's ranger friends are likely to come looking for him soon, and I don't know what he'll do when they find them.
May 7, 2012 at 1:01PM ESTSnow @Keith Jon's story has nothing to do with the Iron Throne. The Watch takes no part in these struggles. It's clearly about the 100,000-man strong army of wildings they're gathering intel about right now, and the reappearance of the White Walkers in the world.
May 7, 2012 at 4:29PM ESTjonboy
May 7, 2012 at 3:13AM EST Reply to CommentHow has no one commented on Sansa almost being raped? That was one of the most horrifying, intense, and brutal scenes in the series so far, well done.
Mr. Belvedere There was actually a point during the scene and as it kept going on where I said to myself "oh crap, they're not going to show this young actress naked are they?!?" never mind giving her an actual rape scene... YIKES.
May 7, 2012 at 12:19PM ESTodessasteps Since Sophie Turner is only 16, I don't think we need to worry about her getting naked.
May 7, 2012 at 9:38PM ESTfiona14 Actually, Sophie Turner is only 15, and she was 14 (at the oldest) when the scene was filmed. Yikes!
May 9, 2012 at 5:47AM ESTMR. CLEAN
May 7, 2012 at 3:25AM EST Reply to CommentWILDLING WAY TOO CLEAN
Brandon I was thinking the same thing initially, but then I thought that perhaps since they're predominantly in snow, they are able to frequently wash themselves with it.
May 7, 2012 at 6:51AM ESTW.A.Wilson Thats just cause you, like everybody else south of the Wall, assumes they should be dirty.
May 7, 2012 at 12:56PM ESTtijde Heh, I thought the same thing. Her hair and teeth looked especially well-maintained--clean, brushed, and freshly-scrubbed. (And wow, that actress has gorgeous skin.) Robb's love interest, on the other hand, had quite noticeably oily hair. The contrast between the two makes me wonder...
May 9, 2012 at 2:53AM ESTMatt
May 7, 2012 at 4:08AM EST Reply to CommentAlan
It is absurd to see that you have to spell out the "spoilers from books" shit every single week. I am constantly surprised at how disrespectful and selfish people are these days, but the fact that you have to spell out the rules like people are perpetual children just irks me to no end. Can't people have some respect for those who haven't read the books? I personally have read all the books, but would never dream of spoiling a single scene for anyone! Just wanted to say that I feel your growing pain over this subject.
By the way, loved your "Avengers" review. I love reading your stuff because I often find myself feeling the way you do about things. Cheers.
j PLEASE DELETE DONPAENG'S POST. IT CONTAINS MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE REST OF THE SEASON.
May 7, 2012 at 7:03AM ESTsepinwall Deleted. Sigh.
May 7, 2012 at 9:19AM ESTMatt The worst thing is that DONPAENG did exactly what I was just talking about. EXACTLY. It's happened. People have become too stupid for their own damn good. Sigh indeed Alan.
May 7, 2012 at 9:25AM ESTJenG Hi Alan - I am also a reader of the books and agree 100% with Matt's comment about the jerks leaving spoiler comments. Could you possibly enlist some book-reading volunteers to moderate comments before they are posted and screen them for spoilers? I don't know if something like that would be feasible or not, but I'd be willing to help out and try and protect the TV-only viewers from the few bad apples that I feel are giving we book-readers a bad reputation.
May 7, 2012 at 12:06PM ESTAs always, thanks for the intelligent and insightful commentary – I’m really enjoying reading your reviews.
DB Cooper /stomps feet/
May 7, 2012 at 12:08PM ESTnic919 I actually stop reading the GoT comments once Alan has posted his Mad Men review because then I know he is getting much needed sleep and the spoiler jerks come out to play.
May 7, 2012 at 12:30PM ESTjunglejill A few people are assholes, but I think perhaps most of them don't read the article all the way to the end. If there was a "no books discussion" warning in the head of the article, that might help prevent people from doing it unintentionally.
May 7, 2012 at 1:17PM ESTBrent Alan really shouldn't have to spell it out at all - it's clearly a TV show review, not a freaking book club. Anyone posting book related material is just a d-bag.
May 7, 2012 at 2:01PM ESTAlso amusing is all the posters who preface their comment with "As a book reader..". like it's a PHD or something. Not necessary guys!
BeastieBoy
May 7, 2012 at 5:48AM EST Reply to CommentSo Jaime Lannister is dyslexic. Fascinating!
Iceland is an incredible landscape to film in, as showcased by this show and in Batman Begins.
Matthew Jaime isn't dyslexic... anymore. Tywin is so badass he cured it for him.
May 7, 2012 at 6:07AM ESTbbq_hax0r I was really impressed with Tywin after that. I was expecting some horror story about what he did, and it was actually nice to see him put in the work to help his son. I'm really starting to like Tywin.
May 7, 2012 at 1:29PM ESTp.s. Why is he hanging out in Harrenhal and not down in Casterly Rock?
MattH He's in Harrenhal because that's where his army is. He's "in the field" fighting a war with the Starks and is using Harrenhal as his base of operations.
May 7, 2012 at 3:27PM ESTTedd Yeah, Harrenhal is quite a bit closer to the Riverlands (which is where the war is) than Casterly Rock or King's Landing.
May 7, 2012 at 8:14PM ESTGreg @Matthew, funniest comment ever.
May 8, 2012 at 1:31AM ESTthe minister Jamie being dyslexic felt true to me.
May 8, 2012 at 10:55PM ESTEveryone I know that's dyslexic is really good at some mechanical skill, and swordfighting is certainly that.
Of course everyone I know that's dyslexic got into the high end public U where I met 'em, so they could be outliers.
WeeBay @matthew: Thanks a lot. Now I've replaced every Chuck Norris joke I know with Tywin Lannister and it can't NOT be funny. "Tywin Lannister can slam a revolving door!"
May 9, 2012 at 11:34AM ESTMatthew @Weebay(love the name btw, Weebay was awesome) How about: Tywin Lannister is so Badass that Direwolves are afraid of him
May 9, 2012 at 4:52PM ESTTywin Lannister is so badass he doesn't need a sword to behead someone, he just stares at them till their head falls off(Arya was damn lucky he wasn't trying)
Tywin Lannister is so badass not even Varys can spy on him.
Tywin Lannister is so badass that Tyrion the man who imp slaps a king, craves his respect.
And of course, Tywin Lannister is badass his two sons are Tyrion and Jaime. You can't have a more badass pair of sons than that.
WeeBay @Matthew: Perfect! Well done, sir, well done.
May 10, 2012 at 11:05AM ESTIron pays the Tywin Lannister price!
Daniel
May 7, 2012 at 5:50AM EST Reply to CommentMaisie Williams deserves an Emmy nod, right? She's one of the best child actors I can ever remember watching, way better than Kiernan Shipka.
John Maisie Williams is the best child actress, but I do like Kiernan Shipka a lot. I'd probably rank her third, behind Williams and Kaitlyn Dever (Loretta McCready on "Justified"). And I think Williams' co-star Sophie Turner is good too.
May 7, 2012 at 8:07AM ESTJeremy M According to Wikipedia: HBO submitted her for consideration as Outstanding Supporting Actress in the 2012 Primetime Emmy Awards.[9]
May 8, 2012 at 12:31AM ESTGreg Was thinking the same thing throughout this episode. Seriously, I cannot think of a better child actor ever.
May 8, 2012 at 1:33AM ESTthe minister Not sure you can give it to masie over kiernan. KS is asked to do some really subtle stuff.
May 8, 2012 at 10:57PM ESTMasie is more charismatic though, that's for sure. Whoever casts GoT SO deserves an emmy or four.
tijde Both amaze me with their talent, but I agree with the minister. Subtle is the perfect word to describe KS's material. At their ages, I'd probably have found it easier to play Arya than Sally. To me, GoT's viewpoint seems to put us more in Arya's shoes, looking out on a scary world, while Mad Men's viewpoint seems more like that of an adult either looking back on childhood or watching a child experience it. Both viewpoints are totally valid and well-done, but they're so different that it's hard to compare the two.
May 9, 2012 at 3:35AM ESTDaniel
May 7, 2012 at 5:52AM EST Reply to CommentMaisie Williams work is so outstanding, she's one of the best young actors I've ever seen. Way better in my mind than Kiernan Shipka.
PJ
May 7, 2012 at 9:12AM EST Reply to CommentThanks for pointing out the filming in Iceland. I knew they were doing locations all over the world but did not know Iceland was one of them. Those scenes were breathtaking.
joel Everytime they cut to the North now I have to remind myself that I'm not watching Lord of the Rings. The location work in those scenes is stunning, and comparable to the best work in Hollywood blockbusters. Well played, GoT, well played.
May 7, 2012 at 3:34PM ESTBernard
May 7, 2012 at 9:37AM EST Reply to CommentBest new character this season has to be Jaqen; too bad he will probably only be around for one more killing.
Fawst Absolutely everyone they have cast for this season's newcomers is brilliant. Jaqen is my favorite by far with Brienne being second (she has had the best dramatic acting so far with Renly's death scene: "I WON'T LEAVE HIM!" gave me chills.). Davos and Stannis are tied for third. I can't choose between the two. This is all based on (no spoiler, just observation) having read the book. They bring these characters to life in ways the books couldn't. Jaqen specifically. I read him FAR differently than this guy is playing him, and the actor has won that battle handily.
May 7, 2012 at 10:25AM ESTIDeelight I've read, that the multi-lingual german actor Tom Wlaschiha is in 5 episodes, so there are another 3 chances to see him. He is a great stage actor as well. He had a voice coach at the set and they tried different set-ups for the sound of the Free Cities, but finally decided that his natural German accent is the best. He was very impressed by Maisie's work, btw. Some trivia.
May 7, 2012 at 1:25PM ESTYou'readumbass,Mr.Grinch You've read that and decided to spoil it for the rest of us? That's great.
May 7, 2012 at 3:12PM ESTIDeelight It's the pure joy to see him that often, in which way/form/scene I don't know. Just a fan, sorry.
May 7, 2012 at 5:35PM ESTYeathree He was in more than 2 episodes so far. Remember he was a captive heading for the wall at the start of the season.
May 8, 2012 at 8:34AM ESTtijde Love him. As yet I'm not blown away by Brienne; she feels like a melodramatic caricature surrounded by complex people. Maybe that's intentional, idk.
May 9, 2012 at 3:41AM ESTCitizen_Kong @Ideelight: I didn't know the Jaquen actor is German. And a Saxon, no less. That makes two Germans on the show so far, together with Sibel Kekili.
May 10, 2012 at 7:34AM ESTIdeelight A foreign accent is no stigma in Game of Thrones, but required in some cases. Sibel is doing a good job as Shae til now. Tom Wlachiha did a huge step with this role as Jaqen, he is a kind of GOT celeb already, concerning the amount of time, we see him. tumblr is full of animated gifs, i. e. the shrug of this episode. Girls/boys on twitter are crazy about him. Or Jaqen.
May 10, 2012 at 12:31PM ESTDorothy
May 7, 2012 at 10:01AM EST Reply to CommentAgreed - any episode where Joffrey is slapped is a good one. :)
I've not read the books, but it seems they are setting up a storyline with the Hound and Lady Sansa. He *has* always treated her with respect and a measure of kindness. Beauty and the Beast? Sadly, I suspect she will not be tempted, as she's seen too much of what The Hound is capable of, not to mention that he guards Joffrey and his honor lies there....
kronicfatigue
May 7, 2012 at 10:22AM EST Reply to CommentThis story is starting to rely on faux drama created by non stop buzzer beaters. Jaqen kills the soldior the very second that maximizes the drama (it's almost impossible to imagine he was able to catch up to him in the first place). Sansa is prevented from being raped at JUST THE LAST SECOND. The Smoke Baby is born and kills on the Eve of the defining battle.
Why wouldn't Arrya tuck the note into her sleeve? She's literally running through an entire crew of bad guys. What was even her end game? steal a raven and send it off to some place?
Looks like we're never going to the get the backstory of Renly vs. Stannis. I need to know why Renly thought he had a right to the throne and why they disliked each other so much that they couldn't compromise. Is being the #2 most powerful man in kings landing really that bad? It seems too convenient (again, w/o backstory) that Renly wouldn't just side with Stannis in return for a sweet VEEP gig.
More importantly, I am absolutely not following the power struggle between the Queen, Joffrey, and Tyrion. Queen threatens Tyrion but lets the princess be shipped off. Tyrion slaps Joffrey but Joffrey kills Tyrion's "gift". If Joffrey is so arrogant and hastey, why doesn't he just have Tyrion killed? If Joffrey needs Tywin's money/army, then why isn't Joffrey a king in name only, with Tyrion calling all the real shots? Joffrey gets to shout a stupid command when it's convenient to the story, and then Tyrion gets to clean up the mess when it's equally convenient.
Joffrey is still behtrothed (is that the word) to Sansa b/c the Queen demands it. But Joffrey has already threatened to kill the Queen when she slapped him. Where's the power in marrying a Stark? I get holding her hostage, but Joffrey should be marrying someone else to form an alliance.
And I've already complained upthread about the Jon Snow nonsense.
This show has come off the rails in the past two episodes. I haven't seen this week's Mad Men yet, but fingers crossed that it's still bringing its A game, b/c it's holding the crown of Sunday TV.
ROSE Everyone who has ever met Stannis knows he would be a terrible king including Renly. It's no mistake that most of the Storm Lands Bannerman flocked to Renly and not Stannis even though Stannis has the better claim. As for the Lannisters, the answer is simply Family, Loyalty and Tradition. Cersi can throw as many tantrums as she wants but as a male and the hand of the King Tyrion ranks higher then her. Jeffery won't kill Tyrion because nothing is worse then killing family. Most of the Lannisters hate each other but they are family and family sticks together. I think Jeffery would be a king in name only if Cersi or Tyrion had it their way but he's just smart enough or stupid enough to wiggle out of it. Like when he bedded Ned Stark against everyone's wishes. Lastly, the hope is a marriage to a Stark will help bring the North to kneel. Terrible plan but most plans of Cersi's are.
May 7, 2012 at 11:31AM ESTJessec829 @Rose: "Like when he bedded Ned Stark against everyone's wishes" might be the most horrifying/awesome typo I've ever seen.
May 7, 2012 at 11:51AM ESTRose It really would have changed the tone and direction of the show. I guess we will never know. Though I suspect the answer may lie somewhere out there in the fanfic world. Also I do know the kid's name is Joffery.
May 7, 2012 at 12:23PM ESTW.A.Wilson Remember that Stannis spent all of season 1 on Dragonstone. Renly wanted to be king purely because he COULD. He was one of the most popular people in the kingdoms and knew that with the Tyrells help, he could overthrow the Lannisters.
May 7, 2012 at 1:04PM ESTRose, Stannis would make a great king I'm not sure why you think otherwise. He is just and inflexible.
Marrying Sansa would allow the Lannisters to take over Winterfell because the child of Sansa and Joffrey would be a Lannister, the heir to Winterfell.
Cersei is the Queen Regent, which means that until Joffrey comes 'of age' she rules in his stead. However, Tyrion is the King's Hand, which means he basically has all the Kings power. He can only be overturned by the King himself. Tywin is really the Hand, but he sent Tyrion to King's Landing to rule in his place. Jaime is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (the white cloaks), but is currently unable to do his duty because of imprisonment. Myrcella has been sent to Dorne to shore up an alliance with the Martells, the ruling family of Dorne. Prince Tommen is still in Kings Landing with Cersei. Myrcella was pointless anyway because a woman can't rule as Queen (unless she's Queen Regent like Cersei). Myrcella, as a princess, serves a role as an alliance maker.
nominalize I agree with Jesse about the typo! :)
May 7, 2012 at 1:09PM ESTThe betrothal was from before Robert's death, and Cersei maintains it as a pretense for keeping Sansa as a hostage, as do Tyrion and Tywin, I might add.
Also, I presume that it keeps them free from having to deal with other houses distracting them by offering their daughters.
Woody Rose did not come here to argue grammar.
May 7, 2012 at 1:09PM ESTguest Wilson- Why would a Sansa/Joffrey child allow them to take over winterfell? A- Robb's offspring would be heirs to Winterfell, not Sansa's and B- If they actually tried to make that claim, Robb would not just give up and say "Got me- your kid is the ruler, I yield"
May 7, 2012 at 1:22PM ESTkronicfatigue Wilson, thanks for the informative details. I feel like your answer is coming from a very rational, by the book, analysis of the power struggle. You say Cersei is Queen Regent, and thus the "ruling until...." but is that true in practice? Is there any example of her overturning Joffrey or even Joffrey yielding to her decision? She has behind the scenes, manipulative power, but it seems like Joffrey thinks of himself as true king.
May 7, 2012 at 1:53PM ESTHypo: Joffrey commands his guard to kill Cersei and Tyrion....do the guards do it?
From season 1, I thought the Hand was more of the "trusted advisor" type who does the boring stuff that the King doesn't want to do. That he has the power to speak for the King (when the King isn't around). I was under the impression that the current Hand is more powerful only b/c of the money/army. That if Joffrey had say chosen the Hound as his his hand that the power wouldn't be there.
How did Tywin even get to choose himself hand? I mean, I understand that he has the real power of the family, but does Joffrey understand that? I've seen no element of maturity or understanding on his part. He's just pure arrogance. Where are the scenes where he contemplates his decisions? Where he at least voices a need for Tywin?
Did Joffrey know Tyrion was "right" to slap him? If not, why didn't he do something?
kronicfatigue I'd like to piggyback "guests" comments that Sansa's kid wouldn't get Winterfell. Winterfell is the head of a new kingdom at this point. No child, especially one born from kidnapping and thus rape, gets Winterfell by default.
May 7, 2012 at 1:57PM ESTThe only thing I could think of is Sansa as queen is a good PR move. Having her denounce her family and the North is good for the people of the south to hear. But I don't think that's enough of a play to burn your Queen-ship on.
John Guest and Kronicfatigue are right. Remember, their line of succession is the same that England still uses. Basically, a woman can inherit the kingdom only if there are no eligible males first. Right now, the Stark line of succession (beginning with Ned's older brother Brandon) looks like this: Brandon (deceased), Ned (deceased), Benjen (ineligible--on the Wall), Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya. If Robb gets married and has a son, the new baby immediately moves ahead of Bran into first place. And I think if he has a daughter, the baby would move ahead of Sansa and behind Rickon. So at this point, something would have to happen to Robb, Bran and Rickon (and Robb couldn't have a son yet, or if he did, something would have to happen to it) for Sansa to be able to inherit Winterfell.
May 7, 2012 at 2:45PM ESTRose Sansa's kid would only inherit Winterfell if all of brothers died without heirs. In this world and in many more current ones, female heirs come after all male heirs even if the female is older.
May 7, 2012 at 2:49PM ESTStannis is not well loved. He does not have a head for politics. He would be constantly out maneuvered and out witted. He has no money and few allies. Stannis is an excellent solider and as we have seen excellent soldiers rarely make good kings.
They need Sansa alive to get Jaimie back alive. If the Starks know the girls are dead, then he'll definitely kill Jaimie. Also, Sansa is next in line after Robb. So as stated earlier at the dinner table when Tommen asks Cersei if they will kill sansa's brother, she replys yes.
May 7, 2012 at 2:55PM ESTZach Don't forget that the Lannisters are at war with the Starks. Their plan is to basically defeat the Starks and take over the North. The only reason they want a Stark is because they have to appease the Lords in the North after. Say the Lannisters defeat Robb and he is executed for Treason against Joffrey, Bran gets sick and "dies of his injuries" and Rickon randomly gets sick and dies. Suddenly Sansa has the best claim to being Lord of Winterfell and the Lannisters can much more easily rule the North without worries of rebellion. It's all semantics to obtian power, but Sansa is a great bargaining chip for keeping the North's military plans in check, for preventing Jaime Lannister from being killed, and for controlling the North once they defeat Robb Stark.
May 7, 2012 at 4:24PM ESTFrom a military planning standpoint Sansa is an incredibly valuable resource and it makes perfect sense to keep up the pretense of her arrangement with Joffrey for the moment.
guest Eric- as detailed earlier, Sansa is not next in line after Robb
May 7, 2012 at 5:09PM ESTGreg Grant Actually, Sansa is next in line, as the rest of her family technically forfeited their claim to Winterfell and the North by rebelling against the King. This is an absolutist monarchy, and while the families due truly run their own affairs, while paying homage to a distant King, technically, all of the lands of Westeros are property of the King, who then doles them out to his "trusted" nobles to rule in his stead. Starks are now outlaws, with the exception of Sansa, who is not just a hostage, but by her obedience to the King, the only "legitimate" heir to the North per the narrow interpretation of monarchistic society.
May 7, 2012 at 6:04PM ESTguest I must have missed the scene where Rickon declared open war against the king.
May 7, 2012 at 7:11PM ESTkronicfatigue Zach, when you put it that way, it makes perfect sense. Well done. Sansa can't be used to make the Starks kneel, but they can make the rest of the North kneel. I can't wait to explain it to my friends like it was my own revelation :) Thanks.
May 7, 2012 at 7:14PM ESTTedd As for the "faux drama"...well, I suppose that's a valid complaint if you just generally don't like TV. The last second rescue trope is incredibly common on television (and really, fiction in general), from terrible shows (Criminal Minds, anyone?) to great ones--think how often something terrible has been BARELY averted on Breaking Bad, for instance. Game of Thrones seems to do it a pretty average amount.
May 7, 2012 at 8:22PM ESTGreg @Tedd very very well said.
May 8, 2012 at 1:40AM ESTbitchstolemyremote
May 7, 2012 at 10:33AM EST Reply to CommentFelt that this episode was much better paced than last week. We got plenty of time to sit and simmer with idiots like Theon and Joffrey, though I didn't much care for Jon's stupid decision making in his scenes with Ygritte.
By far my favourite scene was the meeting with the Spice King and Dany (our take: http://wp.me/p1VQBq-Tt). Loved the staging on the staircase as a power battle and intrigued by the cliffhanger. Guessing she's off to the House of the Undying next?
Tedd Jon's been doing stupid stuff all series--remember when he tried to desert the Watch at the end of last season? Or followed Craster earlier this one? This seems pretty in character for him (which doesn't mean that you're wrong for not caring for it, though).
May 7, 2012 at 8:26PM ESTWe haven't seen much of her, but so far I'm enjoying Ygritte a lot. Her grinding up on Jon was great.
Slow Boat
May 7, 2012 at 11:13AM EST Reply to CommentAre we to think that Tywin left the purloined letter on the table purposefully, i.e., he's testing Arya to see if she's some sort of spy?
He may or may not suspect that she's actually the missing Stark sister, but the only reason (plot-wise) to dedicate a scene to her literacy and its relation to her father is if her literacy ultimately blows her cover.
Just a guess.
dennis3951 Tywin does not know that Arya is missing. He does not trust Littlefinger and may have been testing him or he just left the paper there.
May 8, 2012 at 7:18AM EST
Reply to comment...I think he knows...too smart not to.
May 8, 2012 at 10:30PM EST- 1
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