Review: 'Game of Thrones' - 'Garden of Bones': I smell dead people!
Joffrey sends Tyrion a message, Robb launches an attack, and Melisandre shocks Davos
Liam Cunningham as Davos in "Game of Thrones."
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A review of tonight's "Game of Thrones" coming up just as soon as mathematicians rule the world...
"You're fighting to overthrow a king, and yet you have no plan for what comes after." -Talisa
There are so, so many players in the Game of Thrones this season, all boasting that they know how to play, but as we get to "Garden of Bones," it becomes clear that many of the smartest and/or most successful players have only thought a few moves ahead at best.
After scoring another successful sneak attack on Tywin Lannister's forces(*), Robb is feeling celebratory, but a nurse tending to the wounded on both sides points out how little he's thought this plan through. Robb doesn't want to take the Iron Throne, but hasn't considered who will if he succeeds in killing Joffrey. Bad as Joffrey is, it's entirely possible that his successor could lead to even worse things for both the South and North. Robb's turned out to be an excellent tactician, one battle at a time, but the game is much bigger than that now.
(*) I imagine there will once again be complaints that the show avoided showing us a major battle scene, but A)the show simply doesn't have the resources (in terms of time or money) to do many large-scale fantasy battle scenes, and B)I thought this was their best workaround yet: the Lannister guards in the dark, followed by Robb's Direwolf coming out of the darkness to eat one, followed by a brief glimpse of Robb in the shadows, followed by the aftermath. Bing-bang-boom. The whole story of the battle told in four shots. If you can't show the battles, that's the way to do it.
Tyrion, meanwhile, continues to be very clever in how he deals with many of the powerful folk of King's Landing. It's a pleasure to watch him make Lancel Lannister his mole, casually pulling down every one of Lancel's defenses for having sex with the king's mother. But even Tyrion's brains have their limits, and while he may be able to outsmart Joffrey, he's no match for the raging sickness in that kid's head. Who would imagine that if you sent a teenage boy two whores as a gift (and a hoped-for method of relaxation), he would decline their pleasures and instead order one to savagely beat the other (if not worse)? Just a horrifying sequence (when it ended, I wrote "Someone needs to kill Joffrey, this second" in my notes), and one that will hopefully be a wake-up call to Tyrion about exactly who he's up against and how many people can be hurt in the process.
Across the Narrow Sea, Dany's in a more desperate circumstance, so you can forgive her for going through the walls of Qarth without any idea what's inside and what might be done to her, her people and even her baby dragons. When you're on the verge of dying of thirst, you can't think more than one move ahead. But as beautiful as that oasis looks, I don't imagine it'll be as perfect a haven as she might dream for.
Arya's in even worse shape in our other new location, Harrenhal, where she's a prisoner of the Lannisters without Yoren's protection. She may be able to mutter a list of people she wants revenge against — a list that keeps getting longer as her situation worsens — as a way to calm herself at night, but she lacks the might, or even the weapon at the moment, to do anything. As with Dany, she's dependent on the beneficence of a stranger — in this case, Tywin Lannister, who, like Gendry, quickly sees through her cross-dressing disguise — and winds up in an improved position than she was earlier, but one that has even more potential for peril.
(Regardless of what happens, I'm happy we've gotten so much of Arya the last couple of weeks. It's a huge cast full of compelling characters played by good actors, but Arya's one of a handful of "GoT" regulars I'd gladly watch a spin-off about.)
And in far better circumstances than either young woman, the Baratheon brothers don't seem to be thinking about the long game, either. Renly assumes his superior numbers are all he'll need, while Stannis is putting similar faith into Melisandre's magic. And given that the episode ends with Melisandre apparently giving birth to the freaking smoke monster from "Lost,"(**) grumpy old Stannis may be onto something here. Still, he seems to barely be doing any thinking at all here, letting the red-headed witch take charge, and it's almost as unsettling for me to watch as it is for longtime Stannis loyalist Davos, who has to be there for Smokey's delivery into the world.
(**) Seriously? She gives birth to a monster made out of black smoke? "Private Practice" would do a nine-episode arc about Addison preparing for that.
We've seen glimpses of magic north of the Wall, and across the sea with Dany's dragons, but now it's about to very much make its presence felt in the heart of Westeros. And when that happens, will everyone be able to think three moves ahead, or will they be too busy responding to the horror happening right in front of them?
Some other thoughts:
* Interesting that everyone seems to know about Renly and Loras. It's one thing for Littlefinger to be hip to it, but for lowly Lannister soldiers to be gossiping about such a thing suggests it's an open secret.
* Speaking of which, I polled you guys last week for an acceptable nickname for Margaery, since there's no way in hell I'm going to get that spelling right every time. Runaway winner was "Mags." We'll see if it sticks. Failing that, she'll be "Mrs. Renly," and/or "Renly's Beard."
* Boy, was Michelle Fairley so good in the scene where Littlefinger returns Ned's bones to Cat: overcome with emotion, but not wanting to let this conniving weasel glimpse even a bit of it, then only able to grieve for moments once he leaves, because there's too much else to do.
* The cast shuffle continues. So, for instance, no Theon or Jon Snow this week, but Dany and Robb are back, and we get the introduction of a potentially significant new character in Xaro, Dany's new host at Qarth, played by British actor Nonso Anozie.
Finally, I want to thank everyone for behaving much better last week in terms of the spoiler policy. Let me remind you again that we are here to TALK ABOUT THE TV SHOW AS A TV SHOW, AND NOT AN ENDLESS SERIES OF COMPARISONS TO THE BOOKS. The last two weeks, I set up a topic on our message boards for people who want to talk about the books to their heart's content without spoiling it for the rest of us, and I've done that again for tonight's episode, and will keep doing that for the rest of the season. Any comment that deals in any way with something from the books that hasn't been on the show yet — be it a plot development, a character we haven't met yet, a bit of motivation the show has yet to explain — will be deleted. Period.
What did everybody else think?
Alan Sepinwall may be reached at sepinwall@hitfix.com
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Next 221 Commentschakrabs
April 22, 2012 at 10:01PM EST Reply to CommentConsidering all the talk of shadows before Melisandre "gave birth" I think the smoke monster was supposed to be a shadow.
Omagus Yeah, it's a shadow baby, not a smoke one.
April 22, 2012 at 10:54PM ESTbelinda Yup. SHADOW BABY!! Been waiting to see how the show would do it, and....here we are.
April 23, 2012 at 7:43AM ESTMatt I thought it was the bad guy from Fern Gully
April 23, 2012 at 1:11PM ESTWaltEagle
April 22, 2012 at 10:08PM EST Reply to CommentI expect less complaints than we got last year after "Baelor" because this battle wasn't in the books anyway.
Sareeta I thought HBO was having technical problems when the screen cut to black for a fairly long time right when that guy went to take a piss. Then it cut to the aftermath of the battle. They handled it better than last season when Tyrion got KO'd and then poof! The battle was over.
April 22, 2012 at 10:50PM ESTJonDee Fewer. You expect *fewer* complaints.
April 22, 2012 at 11:49PM ESTWill Hyland Jondee, you sir, just won the Internet. Congratulations.
April 23, 2012 at 12:25AM ESTChesterfield Well played, Jondee, well played.
April 23, 2012 at 3:15AM ESTTiffany This battle was in the book...
April 23, 2012 at 5:57PM ESTMatt It was mentioned in the books. What I think walteagle is trying to say is that it was "off screen" in the books, unlike the battle Tyrion gets KO'd in, which is "on screen" in the books.
April 24, 2012 at 12:20AM ESTStormshadow4life
April 22, 2012 at 10:12PM EST Reply to CommentThink this one might have been my favorite so far this season. Couldn't agree more about Joffery, I don't think I've ever wanted a character to be murdered like I do him.
Very interested in what that thing actually is that Melisandre birthed.
Viginti Perfect name
April 22, 2012 at 10:55PM ESTJack They were talking about shadows, how the shadows were the servants of the "Lord of Light", what she gave birth was a shadow servant.
April 23, 2012 at 12:05AM ESTGreg Grant
April 22, 2012 at 10:12PM EST Reply to CommentGood show as always. Joffrey is king sht of turd mountain. Just a fantastic villain that makes anyone who opposes him into a default good guy, despite any failings that other person might have.
I liked that nobody explained why the guards were torturing the villagers and killing them at first. It made that whole thing more confusing for everyone involved, and helped understand the frame of mind of Arya. Random guy comes and picks you to be tortured to death over... something. Later, it turns out they want gold and looking for Brotherhood, but nobody bother explaining why or what. Terror and death, and no exposition scene. Well done.
This might be the first time since the dire wolves appears as fully grown that the CGI did not throw me off. I think I said this before, but the key here is not show them interact with actors directly, because that exposes the CGI. Quick cutaways though - great.
Having not read the books I have no idea why Cersei is fixated on having Pycelle (sp?) back. Yes, he is her spy on the council, but Varys is shown to be willing to sell anything to anyone for a small price. Then again, it could be just a sign of a power play, with Cersei needing to show she has authority. But, then why does she take so long to drag out Pycelle? It could be that I am missing some sort of demarcation of power between the proxy of the King's hand and the Queen Regent. There's not probably a constitution or something close to it to spell out who controls what part or who overrules who, but I guess that's part of the general screwed up nature of medieval monarchy.
It's fun to see that Tyrion is in many, many, many ways the perfect son of Tywin, as both are brilliant power players and observers.
The birth scene probably did wonders for my reputation with my neighbors. "What kind of a sick bastard watches porn with the sound that loud and the window open." "no, no, no, it's a show... I'm watching a fantasy show... not, not that kind of fantasy. I... "
A Regarding Cersei, Varys may be willing to sell information but Pycelle is LOYAL...That being said, even Cersei realizes on some level she is not in her father's good graces right now ( what with her blond Nero executing Ned) that she realizes she has to navigate around Tyrion VERY CAREFULLY...
April 22, 2012 at 10:17PM ESTmrbilliam Ha! I thought the same thing about the birth scene as Greg Grant. It absolutely sounded like a very loud sex scene.
April 23, 2012 at 12:20AM ESTJP Me three, I live in a condo and turned the volume down for that scene as well.
April 23, 2012 at 5:53AM ESTA
April 22, 2012 at 10:13PM EST Reply to CommentDumb question this, but how does Littlefinger know where Cat is. Does Littlefinger have a mole in Robb's camp?
MS Littlefinger is in Renly's camp, as is Catelyn (remember Robb sent Catelyn there a couple episodes ago?). If Littlefinger was in Robb's camp, I'd expect he would be short a head pretty soon.
April 22, 2012 at 10:17PM ESTA But how does Littlefinger know where she is. Because in the second episode, we see Tyrion tell the Lannister cousin to take Ned's bones to Robb? In either case, what would Renly do with Ned's bones?
April 22, 2012 at 10:19PM ESTSareeta I thought in last episode Tyrion sent Littlefinger to chat with Catelyn, so Tyrion must have known that Cat would be treating with Renly.
April 22, 2012 at 10:47PM ESTTim It is spelled out more clearly in the book, but when you have a host of more than 10k men it's pretty difficult to hide them. Everyone has scouts & spies running around to keep tabs on each other.
April 23, 2012 at 10:14AM ESTTemmink And remember when Littlefinger is talking to Ned in season 1 he says that Varys is not the only one with a network of spies throughout the kingdom. I'd imagine Littlefinger's network probably includes a large number of camp followers (whores and tinkers and the like) who would be able to move between camps being more or less neutral agents.
April 23, 2012 at 12:47PM ESTMathias I believe it was Tyrion who asked Littlefinger if he wanted to see Cat, so I believe that they all have ways to know where most of the people are.
April 23, 2012 at 7:16PM ESTMatt In the books word would spread through ravens. Someone loyal to the Lannisters would have most likely seen Cat and her guard travelling south to where Renly's camp was and sent a raven to King's Landing.
April 24, 2012 at 12:23AM EST
April 22, 2012 at 10:14PM EST Reply to CommentThe forum moderator in the books was way less harsh.
chakrabs One wrong step and Sepinwall will have you tossed in the dungeons of the Dreadfort and flayed
April 22, 2012 at 10:21PM ESTReek In my family, we say 'A naked man has spoils few plot twists, a flayed man none'.
April 29, 2012 at 3:55AM ESTdebbie
April 22, 2012 at 10:19PM EST Reply to CommentWell, that was disturbing!
I didnt need to see the scene with the prostitutes to know Joffery is a sadistic prick. It felt gratuitious, and that 5 minutes could have been better spent tell someone elses story.
Sareeta I didn't think it was any worse than the infamous brothel scene from, I think, episode 2, but I felt it overshadowed the abuse he dealt Sansa in a previous scene, which I thought perfectly conveyed how bad her situation is without getting too graphic.
April 22, 2012 at 10:45PM ESTGreg Grant I think it served a purpose and wasn't Starz-like. First, it showed Joffrey has a sadistic sex streak, which we kinda sorta saw, but this was all about it. Second, it showed Joffrey does understand some of the power games that are being played around him and is not just going to scream, "I am a King! Do as I say" to get his way. His uncle, who makes no pretense about ever liking him, sends him prostitutes.
April 22, 2012 at 11:39PM ESTHow would Joffrey know they're not going to kill him while he sleeps or in the middle of them or what have you? He's not a big guy, it would not take much for two women to overpower him and smother with a pillow or strangle with a ripped bedsheet strip or even their own clothes.
How does he know they're not diseased and sent to kill him via STDs, or some sort of poison?
Also, what sort of message does it send that the King needs his uncle to find him whores un-asked? Is the King not able to get ass on his own? Does the King need reminder when to get laid?
And lastly, he wants to send a message to his uncle: don't f' with me or interrupt my fun. He can't kill his uncle, but he can take it out on those his uncle sends and then send them back to his uncle to show what happened.
For a sadistic dipsht, Joffrey is not a total idiot. He is impulsive and dumb, but the murder of his not-siblings was not just petulant, but a calculated move to secure the throne.
If anything, I'm kinda interested to see if he has any designs for his little sister and brother. Particularly as he knows his uncle likes them more than him.
Cersei dislikes everyone but her family, and considers them to the only worthy sexual partners because all else are regarded by her as animals. Her little bundle of joy might not even like his own family, which removes the only safeguard in place for the Lannisters.
MaxS I agree. I don't normally have issue with the sexposition cause it's a way to narate thoughts and story lines of characters, but we don't need an extra scene to show how horrible Joffrey is. There weren't any people who were thinking, well maybe Joffrey is just misunderstood and then swayed by this scene. Cut that out and give me an extra Arya scene.
April 23, 2012 at 12:04AM ESTjoel I don't think there's been a gratuitous scene in this whole series. Joffrey is a horrible monster, but this exposed that he is a horrible monster to his core. Before, it could have been said that he was playing to an audience, because Joffrey clearly knows he is on display. Now we know that Joffrey is not just a psychopathic little shit, he's a sadistic psychopathic little shit. It also shows that Tyrion has no easy answer for Joffrey, and that Joffrey holds him in absolute contempt. I imagine that last part is going to become very important before the season ends.
April 23, 2012 at 2:57AM ESTGeoff I'd just like to say that Joffrey is so cruel and sadistic, we should all realise that young actor, Jack Gleeson definately deserves at least an Emmy nomination for a truly disturbing performance.
April 23, 2012 at 4:24AM ESTbelinda I sort of agree. On the one hand, Joffrey is a shit and thus depicted as one is fine by me. On the other hand, I think they're overplaying it a tad much since GoT is so much abou out the morally grey areas and bad guys who do good things and good guys who do bad things. Even with Joffrey, who is cruel and a horrible person, but he is also really just a child pushed into a position with more power than he can handle, and power corrupts, yadda. But here it's more than just that, it's like watching some creepy fucked up serial killer at work.
April 23, 2012 at 8:46AM ESTTim I would say it's primary purpose is to show Tyrion that Joffrey is far worse than he feared. I also believe it serves another purpose but I won't say it here because it's majorly spoilerific.
April 23, 2012 at 10:18AM ESTMBG My gf & I agreed that scene, difficult as it was, could have been worse... Let's just leave it at that.
April 23, 2012 at 2:48PM ESTrowan729 Geoff, that's what I said last night as soon as the show ended-I needed to take a different perspective on that scene besides the gut churning response I initially had. How gutsy that young actor is to play so evil a role so early in his career. It's not the kind of role any old child actor could tackle, and I think he's got a great future ahead in acting since he plays this role so wellyou hate Joffrey, but I love seeing this kid play him! He's a powerful presence on the show this year, that's for sure.
April 23, 2012 at 3:09PM ESTMy next comment concerns what he made Ros do to that other girl, because my impression was that he ordered Ros not to beat her but to....rape her with that antlered club-"When it's over take her to my unlce and show him what you've done. Show him what he paid for." That's an allusion to sexual violence, and the girls scream when the scene ended kinda confirmed that for me. I'm curious if anyone else agrees that Joffrey's intent was rape and not a beating?
MBG Well now that you've said it, that's the horrifying thought we were thinking, yes... but were relieved (relatively speaking) when it sounded like she was whacking her with it.
April 23, 2012 at 5:09PM ESTXeRocks81 @Greg that was pretty much my take on that scene as well. More than just show us how deranged he is, it shows that he does have some of those Lannister wits in his head after all and knows when he's being played and he's all the more dangerous for it
April 23, 2012 at 6:36PM ESTDezbot
April 22, 2012 at 10:19PM EST Reply to CommentI had the same thought about Joffrey. Little bastard cannot die soon (or horribly) enough for me! Where's that gif of Tyrion slapping Joffrey from the first season? I need to see that again!
Can't wait to see Arya navigate around Tywin.
There are terrors in the night...and in Melisandre's womb. What a great episode tonight!
lztouchthedream Even better than a gif -
April 22, 2012 at 10:24PM ESThttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYNeT2nzEgA
Lisa I came to post that same YouTube link.
April 23, 2012 at 12:41AM ESTdezbot Weirdly, I can see gifs at work, but YouTube is blocked. Rats!!
April 24, 2012 at 2:53PM ESTPam
April 22, 2012 at 10:21PM EST Reply to CommentI'm curious if viewers who haven't read the books are upset by what happened with Melisandre. This is the first real magic we've seen, and it has the potential to upset the balance of power, and make the humans less important. I mean, why worry about what the Lannisters and Greyjoys are up to when one side can birth monsters? Will some viewers see GoT as an X-rated Harry Potter now? Will this be too much magic? I guess I'm asking non-readers how this affects their perception of the show.
Greg Grant If Dany is invulnerable to fire, makes thousand year old eggs hatch, and there are undead who live in the snow - I'm cool with a little black fog from a womb with magic powers. I don't see it as X-rated Harry Potter, I see it as an adult Lord of the Rings. I went to see the movies with a nerd, and she was soooo happy with the movies because she loved the books, while I was being an a-hole and going, "Wait, no way that guy would do that. What the... Seriously, he just upped and turned power over to that dude just because... Their plan for storming the castle involves riding on horses towards it and waving their swords? That idiot king trapped himself in a falling apart citadel with no food and he's supposed to be the good guy and we need to cheer him? Why?"
April 22, 2012 at 10:37PM ESTGame of Thrones has adult people acting like adults with adult motives. Yeah, I'm not big on magic and would have preferred it to be even more grounded in realism, but the books as near as I can tell were meant to appeal to the hardcore fantasy fans, and so it had to have magic in it. So I can deal.
P.S., I still care more about the Lannisters (the most dysfunctional family since the Harts or McMahons), than I do about a weird CGI monster. The monster has no personality.
Steve Considering we saw the white walkers and reanimated zombies in the very first scene of the series, I think this might not be that big a problem.
April 22, 2012 at 10:40PM ESTDune Buggy Pam, for me I think that as long as the mystical elements are restrained and introduced carefully, it could make the show even better. It adds new dimensions and possibilities, but if it turns out, say as LOST did, then it could potentially ruin it. LOST was brilliant when the sci-fi, fantasy elements were mysterious and on the outer of a great character drama. When they became the focus, the show steadily declined, in my eyes anyway.
April 22, 2012 at 10:44PM ESTI have faith that GOT will keep itself grounded, but add to the drama with some amazing mystic elements.
Prankster I dunno, I count ice zombies, dragons, and whatever the hell was going on in Khal Drogo's tent as magic. So we know it exists, it's just this is the first time it's happened in downtown Westeros instead of the boonies.
April 22, 2012 at 10:47PM EST
George RR Martin actually stated that he disliked writing about Magic, because of the options that it opens. Like adding a time machine into anyplot, lol. So I wouldn't expect the magical elements on the show to be overwhelming
April 22, 2012 at 11:40PM ESTStiro The very first scene in this series introduces us to weird ice demons.
April 23, 2012 at 12:07AM ESTThe first season features blue eyed zombies returning to life, the birth of dragons, and a woman who is invulnerable to fire.
The opening of season 2 saw Melisandre calmly drink poison and remain unaffected.
The magic isn't new.
JP Up until the moment she gave birth, I was more convinced that Melisandre was a climber or shystress who was using Stannis's confidence in her to attain a position of power. Her resistance to the poisoned wine was the only indication that she was anything out of the ordinary.
April 23, 2012 at 5:59AM ESTTim I have read them but, ignoring that, I like the fact that at this point in Westeros magic has been gone for ages and has become largely a myth in the minds of most people. This makes even a little bit of magic a huge wild card because none of the major players have factored it into their machinations.
April 23, 2012 at 10:26AM ESTAnd remember that with the exception of the zombies we saw in S1, humans have been the source of the magic.
Scoob Reply to comment...
April 23, 2012 at 12:23PM ESTScoob The magic is my least favorite part of the show. I hope it stays pretty minimal. I haven't read the books so I don't know where this is headed.
April 23, 2012 at 12:26PM ESTjoel I agree that the magic isn't that interesting to me, and it does have the potential to throw the compelling narrative and characters off the rails. But if Martin was/is keen to avoid that, then no problem. My only concern is how HBO will deal with it. Magic=effects shots=bigger budget and production time. When HBO has done effects-heavy series, they've done some amazing work on relatively small budgets (The Pacific comes to mind), but magic and dragons and smoke monsters is a whole other level of effects. I'd rather see fewer effects shots than see cheap effects shots.
April 23, 2012 at 1:17PM ESTTedd Joel, you do know that The Pacific cost (at least) $200 million, right? I guess that's small relative to U.S. gross national debt, but compared to anything else...
April 23, 2012 at 4:01PM ESTMadel I haven't read the books - but I thought this was the weakest episode of the season so far (perhaps of the series) - for a number of reasons but mostly because I really don't like this introduction of a shadow-monster-birthing witch.
April 23, 2012 at 5:39PM ESTWhatever your thoughts about fantasy elements in the series might be, there was a kind of 'logic' behind the timing of the various things introduced so far. Both the white walkers and dragons were talked about in mythical fashion from the beginning of the series - and only fully introduced after much groundwork. The former were a race of creatures which hibernate for centuries (millenia?) and the latter a species which were believed to be extinct. The reappearance of both simultaneously is a major coincidence - but again, a solid foundation was laid for the reasoning.
But this priestess (witch)? She seems to arrive on the scene out of the blue - with this powerful unexplained magic which has absolutely no reasoning to support it. Where was she 5 years ago? Why didn't she screw some wannabe king before to take the iron throne from Robert? It doesn't make any sense, and they haven't done any prep work for her or what is, in all honestly, seemingly over-the-top get-pregnant-and-birth-a-demon-two-weeks-later nonsense.
I don't know if the books introduced her with the same lack of backstory and foundation, but right now, I'm feeling the first tinge of silliness and disappointment that I've had with Game of Thrones since the series started - exactly what I was worried about when I heard HBO was adapting a 'fantasy' series.
bbq_hax0r I'm sort of into teh Fantasy Realm (saw LOTR and play games like Skyrim) but I have a feeling I (and others I know who enjoy this show -- My parents, gf, non fantasyish friends) am going to be turned off by this. I just don't know if the direction of the show is what I fell in love with.
April 23, 2012 at 6:18PM ESTlouisjab I like the all the magic stuff right now because it gives each group a special characteristic. Instead of having 5-6 regular armies, they're all unique in some way: Robb is a master tactician, Lannisters have the money and the throne, Renly has the biggest number of troups, Stannis has the witch, Dany has the dragons and The Northern army has zombies and the creatures form the pilot.
April 23, 2012 at 8:00PM ESTdarthzombie DON'T READ JESSE'S COMMENT ABOVE IF YOU DON'T WANT KNOWLEDGE FROM THE BOOKS....This is a discussion of the show only Jesse so yeah...
April 24, 2012 at 2:52AM ESTGreg Grant Madel, having not read the books, my explanation of the Red Priestess is that even if she was five years around or so, she wouldn't be able to do her thing on a potential King of the Iron Throne. Yes, the cuckolded King wasn't the brightest bulb, but he was still a strong personality to reckon with, and would not succumb to the charms of some lady offering weird magic. And, there is no freaking way Cersei would allow her in the same room with the King, and would have plotted to have her killed on sight.
April 24, 2012 at 4:32AM ESTStannis is vulnerable to her bullsht, because beneath that "I'm in command" exterior, he's a bundle of nerves and low self-esteem. His older brother had an Earthy charm about him and was large and in charge. His younger brother's got the common touch. And he's the weird nutter who has to correct everyone and has zero adaptation skills.
If the Red Priestess would have shown up to Renly and said, "Hey, I got this magic and a new faith." He'd smile politely and find a way to get her whacked. The Seven religion is the mainstream religion of the realm. He's trying to unite the realm under his banner, not splinter.
Red Priestess's faith of the Lord of Light is exclusionary. It has no room for The Seven, or the older faiths we've seen so far: Ironborn Salt Water thingy, and the Winterfell Trees stuff. Those religions could co-exist as seen by the fact that Black Watch allowed Jon Snow to take his oath using a different faith ceremony.
The Lord of the Light thing is "us vs. them" to the extreme and smoke/shadow thing or not, there is no way mainstream religions of the Game of Thrones universe would tolerate a faith that goes out of it's way to denigrate and destroy theirs. Had Red Priestess showed up five years ago - her audience would be nutters with axe to grind and societal failures. Her goal is total domination, and in the medieval model the way to convert the population is to convert the King. That way, when the King comes to power, your faith is the official state religion and everyone else is sht out of luck.
P.S., Jesse, calm the f' down with the book stuff. This is a TV show discussion. Seriously. I get you read the book and you feel passionate about it, but this is not the thread for that. Come on.
Madel @Greg Grant - Thanks for the clarification. I'm obviously not against the idea of magic per se - since I'm watching a show where it has already been introduced. I would just argue that the introduction of whitewalkers, dragons, Bran's telepathy, etc, were handled better (more backstory, legends, discussion, etc) by the writers than this new bit of magic.
April 24, 2012 at 11:31AM ESTRenolo No, I didn't like it at all. The Black Queef appeared as a Deus ex vagina. Suddenly the main storyline is to be upended by a new, completely one-dimensional character with a nasty discharge? What's coming next--a wizard summoning a hemorrhoid army?
April 24, 2012 at 3:16PM ESTThere's a famous quotation about a green sun that somebody needs to reread. Short version is that audiences and readers will accept all sorts of fantastical elements in a story as long as the rules are established up front and followed without exception, which is just the way the real world operates.
GOT was sold to audiences not as full-fledged sword-and-sorcery but as the Wars of the Roses in a fantasy setting. There has been virtually no "magic" per se at all so far, though there have been fantasy elements. And even those have lurked on the edges, barely seen, ambigious, or relegated to far-off places. Even the dragons are less about fantasy than they are about a woman's character and sense of destiny and personal power. We are given the sense that a time of crisis is approaching, and that while politicians squabble they ignore even worse threats that are arising. Winter is coming. This is what the series has led us to expect so far.
Suddenly there appears a tedious temperance lady with no backstory, no personal motivation and no character shooting monsters out of her vajayjay. And we're supposed to remain involved in the development of the plot? Really?
I'm sure some book fanboy will rush to tell me what I "should" have expected, but let me quickly flick those objections away like a booger into the trash can. I expect what the series has taught me to expect so far--a reasonably coherent storyline, not random new plot developments out of the blue, or, um, black.
darthzombie @Renolo what did the opening of the pilot tell you to expect. It opened with a mythical creature and zombies. Though the book probably does a better job of telling you the history of the world and getting more of a feel for magic earlier. Especially in the first book/season when Drogo gets resurrected by the maegi in the tent in the book you can see shadows dancing along the walls of the tent even though only Drogo and the maegi are in the tent. So in the books you see something like this earlier, just not as expicitly it is shown in the shadow baby birthing scene...
April 24, 2012 at 6:03PM ESTTijde Bummed by Jesse's spoiler. It's not a big one, maybe, but it's unnecessary. I understand wanting to defend the series if fans are being turned off by where they think the story is going, but that's on them. Please don't ruin details for the rest of us. People who need such clarification can surely find it elsewhere, no?
April 25, 2012 at 6:15PM ESTViginti
April 22, 2012 at 10:29PM EST Reply to CommentWow, that was one hell of a dark episode, especially in the literal sense given the final scene.
How do you feel about the show getting more magical, given how we were promised early on that this wasn't that kind of show?
Jane I liked the idea. That visual begs to get some magic in it (imo). I'm just hopping it does not turn in somenthing like Merlin (the 2008 tv show). Cause this last scene was awful.
April 22, 2012 at 10:49PM ESTViginti My full, roughshod thoughts on the issue and episode are here if anyone wants more to read and grammar to correct:
April 23, 2012 at 12:32AM ESThttp://deerinthexenonarclights.com/game-of-thrones-garden-of-bones/
Billy Babcock It's fine. They don't overdo the magical elements - at least not thus far. Besides, it's not about the number of magical elements, or how bizarre they actually appear - but how they use these elements in upcoming episodes.
April 23, 2012 at 3:36AM ESTMathias What's everyone's problem with Magic? Damn, folks, you need to be more open minded. We know magic exists in this world, we know that dragons, giants and worse walked the earth many centuries ago, and we really need to freak out for a witch giving birth to some sort of shadow demon?
April 23, 2012 at 9:30AM ESTThe opening scene of the pilot introduced us to the White Walkers, and how much more magic did we see until Kahl Drogo's tent? Nothing more than Dany not burning with boiling water...
I don't get what the big deal is. We know this isn't Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings or Merlin, we should know better than that... I actually love to see bits of magic here and there, and if this shadow thingy turns out to spy for Stannis (or worse) I'm fine with that.
Alas, the people. You throw good stuff at their faces and they always find something to complain about.
Sigh
And if I spelled something wrong, I'm sorry. English is not my first language.
Dr. Dunkenstein I think the problem I have with magic is that it often can be relied on as a deus ex machina or a flimsy explanation for any silly plot twist a writer can think of. Because it's a fictitious element with no conventional boundaries it's probably natural for people to be wary of it's introduction to a series that, so far, has been at it's strongest when it's been about recognizable human emotions and situations.
April 23, 2012 at 12:22PM ESTViginti I don't think that I am against magic becoming a major part of the show, it's just an interesting step forward is all. For so long now it has simply been a seasoning, scattered here and there for flavor,mot make some scenes cooler, but never actually necessary to hold the story together. This scene though puts it on the forefront, it makes chillie the star of the dish and that is a risk in any language.
April 23, 2012 at 6:45PM ESTdarthzombie @DR. DUNKENSTEIN George RR Martin has the sane worries about magic becoming a deus ex machina device and dislikes that type of storytelling. While magic has always been present and gets more integral to the story don't expect wizards throwing a magic missile into the dark...
April 24, 2012 at 2:57AM ESTGuest I'd be much happier without the magic, to be completely honest.
July 13, 2012 at 4:17PM ESTDany's dragons at the end of season one made me think that this show was going to sprial off into some new direction that wouldn't necessarily appeal to me. I would have been content if it had limited itself to direwolves and whitewalkers.
Having said all that, I have as much difficulty believing in shadow babies and dragons as I do in people making out given the level of hygiene medieval man is known for (or not known for, more like). In those days people bathed a few times a year and lost most of their teeth by adolescence.. So...dragons, zombies and french kissing all seem a bit far out there for me - and I'm still watching.
eric_balsam
April 22, 2012 at 10:38PM EST Reply to CommentHey anyone know if they mentioned the name of the man Robb was talking to in the beginning?
Sareeta Robb called him Lord Bolton.
April 22, 2012 at 10:42PM ESTlztouchthedream Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort and Bannerman of the Starks.
April 22, 2012 at 10:48PM EST
Ok cool, I missed the name.
April 22, 2012 at 11:41PM ESTmrbilliam Oh, interesting. I knew he was one of the Freys, but I did not catch that he was Roose Bolton.
April 23, 2012 at 12:25AM ESTTedd He's not one of the Freys, he's a Lord of the North (of the cheerily named Dreadfort, to be specific), and one of Robb's bannermen.
April 23, 2012 at 2:11AM ESTRory And played by another Irishman in Michael McElhatton. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0568385/
April 24, 2012 at 7:54AM ESTFrancois Bolton was trying to convince Robb to torture some prisoners by flaying them. The sigil of house Bolton is a flayed man, as displayed on his tunic. I could never really picture it from the books. Now I know and it's creepy.
April 24, 2012 at 11:10AM ESTMaybe that's where the confusion came from. Frey, flay...
Jane
April 22, 2012 at 10:39PM EST Reply to CommentAm I the only one that thought the birth scene was ridiculous? I laughed so hard!
tonya With the stagey moans and glowing necklace and boobs and rippling tummy? What could be possibly be funny about that?
April 23, 2012 at 12:33AM ESTIan
April 22, 2012 at 11:00PM EST Reply to CommentSo is the shadow thing Stannis' heir now? Prince Smokey?
sukeyna
April 22, 2012 at 11:47PM EST Reply to CommentThese episodes just aren't long enough! So many disturbing things, but I'm happy that Hot Pie lives to see another day. He had a close call tonight.
LJA
April 22, 2012 at 11:49PM EST Reply to CommentStannis sure makes ugly babies.
Sareeta I thought it was neat how it seemed to quickly go from shadow baby clutching at Mel's thighs to full grown shadow man by the time it was released.
April 23, 2012 at 7:24AM ESTIlyrio
April 22, 2012 at 11:54PM EST Reply to CommentYay, we've gotten to the part of Clash of Kings that's just bleak, depressing torture porn.
carobiscuit You are so right. It got to the point where I'd take longer and longer breaks from the story. I like how they are doing it so far, though. Curious to see more of Mags/Margaery's storyline as it unfolds. As ever, I do wish Sansa would channel some of Arya's asskicking spirit.
April 24, 2012 at 2:01PM ESTdezbot As Tyrion noted, though, Sansa's current line of defense ("I love Joffrey my king!") is the one that will enable her to survive in court. She takes a page from Arya's book and she'll be following Lady to the grave.
April 24, 2012 at 2:58PM ESTIlyrio
April 23, 2012 at 12:00AM EST Reply to CommentMichelle Fairley was excellent in the scene with Littlefinger. I don't think she or her character get enough credit from some of the fanbase, so I felt it needed to be said.
Mathias I love Cat. I don't know if I always did, but after Ned's demise, I found her to be a wonderful character. She just needs more chances to prove it.
April 23, 2012 at 9:32AM ESTCarnl
April 23, 2012 at 12:04AM EST Reply to CommentThe Clash of Kings "smoke monster" predates the Lost smoke monster by many years.
Ilyrio It's not a smoke monster in the book, don't be overly defensive.
April 23, 2012 at 12:17AM EST
And has an actual explanation and storyline.
April 23, 2012 at 12:22AM ESTCarnl The scene is practically identical, but I don't think we're supposed to discuss this. Sorry Alan.
April 23, 2012 at 12:58AM ESTMaxS
April 23, 2012 at 12:07AM EST Reply to CommentEven though I knew it was coming, I was shuddering the entire scene with Melisandre birthing the shade.
Dezbot I was wondering if it's a shade. Haven't seen one of those in a story in a long time.
April 23, 2012 at 11:30AM ESTIlyrio
April 23, 2012 at 12:35AM EST Reply to CommentI would love the Daenerys scenes more if Iain Glen wasn't the only good actor in them. Well, the trader at the gates of Qarth was good in a hammy kind of way, but you get my point.
As it is, Emilia Clarke continues to suck the momentum out of any episode she takes part in.
Hatfield Wow, I couldn't disagree more. I think she has brought real weight to a part that could have been very irritating as written
April 23, 2012 at 1:35AM ESTzzzzz Cool story Ilyriobro
April 23, 2012 at 9:36AM ESTTim Yeah, I don't think you're going to find much support for that point of view. I think she's been spot on with Dany.
April 23, 2012 at 10:35AM ESTMattH I don't think it's Emilia Clarke's fault. I actually like her portrayal of Dany. But I do agree that when the plot moves across the ocean it's distracting to the rest of the show. That's just how the story is developing...
April 23, 2012 at 1:07PM ESTIlyrio @Tim Then I supposed it's a shame I don't like Daenerys either. Being blander than Jon Snow is a hard feat to accomplish.
April 23, 2012 at 4:05PM ESTlouisjab She was terrific in the first season, but she has been so-so lately. In her defense, she was not given much to work with, we've barely seen her yet and nothing was going on with that story until they reached the city. I know this is not the way they wanted to do that show, but I would like to see longer parts for Jon or Dany but less frequently, as their stories are not related to the main plot right now, which is the battle for the throne. 10-15 minutes every 3-4 weeks, instead of 5 every week or every other week.
April 23, 2012 at 8:08PM ESTdarthzombie Hey Jesse while not being particularly spoilery you above comment still gleans knowledge known from the book that is not yet known in the show. This here is a conversation talking about the show only and not talking about is an adaption...
April 24, 2012 at 3:00AM ESTThe Hand's thumb I have to agree here. Dany's scenes are ok up to the point where she has to be "strong" or "threatening". She falls flat IMHO during those scenes. There is a certain scene coming up in Quarth I'm VERY interested in seeing. One of the biggest moments of ACOK...i'm hoping she pulls it off. I'm rooting for her.
April 26, 2012 at 5:32PM ESTNick
April 23, 2012 at 12:36AM EST Reply to CommentPlot movement on all fronts and things finally feel like they're coming together. So to me, this was one of the better episodes they've done thus far, though my tastes tend to run dark. Boy did this fit that description.
Joffrey's sadistic torture was appropriately horrifying and serves the purpose of reminding us just how dangerous he can be. This felt even worse than Ned's beheading.
And I think the show uses its supernatural elements pretty brilliantly. They could so easily come off completely ridiculous but there's enough distance in between that it doesn't seem too out there. Instead, it's always a treat and this was no exception. You can't help but become excited by the possibilities. White walkers, dragons, shadow babies. Love them all.
timothymcn
April 23, 2012 at 1:00AM EST Reply to CommentThat Red Woman storyline worries me. I've only read the first book (and won't read the second, until this season is over), but I really hope the series doesn't get to heavily driven by that sort of magic. I worry about the story, but I also worry it will turn people away and HBO may give up on the series in a couple years.
farsighted99 yeah, but the story has to go in a similar vein as the books. People seemed to really like the books, so I'm sure it will all work out fine.
April 23, 2012 at 9:52AM ESTEvan It won't. There are instances but it's not full blown Harry Potter. I don't suspect it'll be much of an issue.
April 23, 2012 at 10:13AM ESTJesse If you're worried about Melisandre doing this kind of thing often, don't.
April 23, 2012 at 8:53PM ESTThis is one of the more extreme and sudden occurances of magic in the series.
If you can stomach this, I don't think anything else in the series will push you over the edge.
That said, magic does have a place in the books, and certain supernatural elements are very important to the plot (namely involving the dragons, direwolves, and zombies), but it never becomes anything like Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings.
I feel like most of the supernatural things are used sparingly enough, or introduced gradually enough, that people shouldn't have too big of an issue with it.
darthzombie AGAIN JESSE TELLING PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN EXPECT FROM THE STORY IS A SPOILER AND NOT SUPPOSED TO BE TALKED ABOUT HERE. YOU ARE RUINING PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCE TO TAKE THIS COMPLETELY FRESH WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHAT IS TO COME.
April 24, 2012 at 3:02AM ESTVoice of reason Darth, get a life, the plot doesn't have to follow step by step what the book outlines so ready jesse has no clue where this magic will turn up. Unless he's secretly running the show..
April 24, 2012 at 4:39AM ESTewing We're not explicitly not to talk about books. Jessie is either a jerk or has reading comprehension problems. What's so hard about "no spoilers whatsoever" to understand?
April 24, 2012 at 5:19AM ESTdarthzombie I have read the books it is not spoiling me, I just prefer not to spoil other people and if my comment helps anyone not get spoiled in any way then I feel good about leaving it. Also "voice of reason" make sure to read Alan's last paragraph on what this talkback is for so talking about what hasn't happened on the show and has happened in the books is strictly not to be talked about on here...
April 24, 2012 at 5:26PM ESTtijde Again, bummed by the book knowledge being introduced.
April 25, 2012 at 6:19PM ESTGuest What's up with this Jesse guy? There are people cursing him out a few threads prior and now this one again. Why don't people who read the books get that non-readers DO NOT want insght into the show? I might say "I'm worried Cercei will seduce Joffrey next and take the incest thing to a whole new level" but by no means is that an invitation to book readers to set my mind at ease or prepare me for the worst. Is it really that hard to understand? I'm truly curious! It seems like an epidemic of low-grade brain damage with the readers who took so long to understand and now still creep in to ruin everyone's good time...
July 13, 2012 at 4:29PM ESTAs someone who has come late to this show and have been watching 3 episodes per day (and reading as many of Alan's posts) I notice there is a definite decrease in book-speak - thanks for getting tough, Alan!
April 23, 2012 at 1:47AM EST Reply to CommentI know people who were calling margaery "dawn" because of her resemblance to michelle trachtenberg.
Jeanne THAT'S why she bugs me!
April 23, 2012 at 9:24PM ESTjenny
April 23, 2012 at 2:04AM EST Reply to CommentAltho I really like this show, some of the sex scenes are so ridiculous. I've often thought, who wrote this, a 14 year old boy? I never got why critics never addressed this except to call it sexposition, as if that makes it lees silly.
Anyhow, SNL did a great send up of this, it's like they read my mind (only the writer was 13 not 14)
http://gawker.com/5902076/snl-explains-the-nudity-in-game-of-thrones
Tedd Not sure why people are so upset by the sex scenes in GoT. It's not like there's really that many more than The Sopranos, Deadwood, Boardwalk Empire, et al. Heck, even the first season of The Wire probably had more nudity, what with all the scenes in Orlando's. And there's considerably less than most (all) of the Starz shows ans some of the Showtime ones.
April 23, 2012 at 2:21AM ESTActually, I do know. It's because of the fantasy context. We're all used to Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, which take a (at worst) PG-13 approach to sex and nudity. I understand it's tough to get used to, but I really wish people would stop complaining about it as something unprecedented for TV.
sukeyna I enjoy the sex scenes as much as I enjoy every other type of scene in the show. This is a program for adults, and I'm an adult. On balance, I think there's much more gratuitous violence shown than sex.
April 23, 2012 at 3:12AM ESTBilly Babcock I like the sex. And I like the violence. I like these things because they're integrated into a tense and disturbing storyline. They work. Also, the girl who had the semen wiped from her mouth a couple of weeks ago is a friend of mine. Joy!
April 23, 2012 at 3:40AM ESTDr. Dunkenstein " It's not like there's really that many more than The Sopranos, Deadwood, Boardwalk Empire, et al. Heck, even the first season of The Wire probably had more nudity, what with all the scenes in Orlando's."
April 23, 2012 at 4:15AM ESTI think there's a fundamental difference between those shows and this one though. Most of those shows, when they dealt with sex or nudity, it was usually where the sex or nudity was the whole point of the scene. In the Wire, when McNulty is on the sting in season 2 it's not like they use his scene with the hookers to give him an extended monologue about how he came to be with the Police department. When Seth and Alma finally hook up in Deadwood it's a major step forward for the series that culminates a plot thread that had been running through the entire season. With GoT it seems as though they have quite a few scenes that have fairly X-rated material where the sex is relatively incidental. I think those scenes can fairly be called gratuitous.
That said, it doesn't upset or offend me but there is a part of me that has begun to think that the series is getting a bit bogged down in exposition in general and, as a result, we're having an awful lot of naked ladies around who don't particularly serve the show's plot.
Tedd Dr., it's true that the material in the Wire is more incidental, but there are still plenty of scenes of McNulty getting it on with someone (that one waiter, Ronnie, Elena etc) that are not required for plot reasons. I think they're important character moments, to be sure...but that's what (most) of the GoT scenes are too. And did we really need all the scenes with the Bada Bing strippers in the Sopranos? Or all of Swearengen's monologues while with the Jem girls in "Deadwood"? Or any scene with Paz de la Huerta from "Boardwalk Empire"? Not strictly, but they served their purpose, in the same way (again, most) of the scenes from GoT do. And don't get me started on True Blood, Spartacus, Magic City, The Tudors, the Borgias, Camelot, Dexter, etc. I really don't see a fundamental difference--other than the genre/setting.
April 23, 2012 at 9:31AM ESTIs Jenny complaining about all of those shows being written by a 14 year old boy? I doubt it.
Dr. Dunkenstein Well, if you're asking me if scenes with Paz de la Huerta from season 1 of Boardwalk(or True Blod or any of the Starz shows you list) were gratuitous in the same way then I'd say absolutely and, indeed, I think Boardwalk did get a lot of the same criticism for those scenes.
April 23, 2012 at 12:14PM ESTI'd disagree about the Wire again. I don't think any of the scenes you mention don't establish something important that's directly related to the sex(whether it's McNulty's relationship with Pearlman or the depths he sinks to during his benders)
I can't speak much to Deadwood as it's been a while since I saw it but I think, along with the Sopranos, you're confusing what people are saying. The Bing and the Gem were important locations in those series and scenes there would require the presence of strippers and prostitutes respectively for the sake of realism.
In GoT, I don't think you can really make the argument that the whorehouse has been a particularly important location most of the time outside of the scenes where characters get monologues while delivered next to naked, writhing women. It's a series that's set, for the most part, in open fields and in throne rooms. I know it seems like it's an important setting because they're spending so much time there but that's a by-product of what I'm saying. Whorehouses are being used for all manners of exposition regardless of whether or not sex has anything to do with the point being made. This isn't to say all of the sex/nudity in GoT feels gratuitous, just that a lot of it does.
MBG I posted that link last week. It's satire.
April 23, 2012 at 2:52PM ESTTedd I'm not confusing what people are saying. I'm saying that there was no story necessity for ANY scenes in the Sopranos to be set in the Bada Bing--David Chase could have had the main hangout set anywhere (or all at Satriolis). To be sure, I have no problem with that choice, but let's not pretend it was somehow central to the plot of the Sopranos. It was about establishing realism, exactly the same reason most of the GoT scenes are there. And the ones that aren't about realism are about establishing character--I think the scene with Theon on the ship is a actually pretty similar in function to McNulty's drunken hook-up with the nameless diner waitress. Now, to be clear I'm not a huge fan of the actual execution of some of the GoT scenes (a few, particularly in the first season, seemed overdone, whereas The Wire always, if you'll forgive the pun, nailed it), but that's different than criticizing their existence.
April 23, 2012 at 3:54PM ESTI just don't see much of a difference between showing the realism of how Littlefinger gets his money and showing how Swearengen gets his. And I think GoT is being held to a different standard than its contemporaries--whereas in shows set in more or less in reality, a sex scene or nudity helps demonstrate realism, in GoT it's gratuitous and (even more perplexing) immature. Some this is probably the show's own fault, for trying to be sexy without going for the wholesale exploitation of something like Spartacus or True Blood. Deadwood, and to a lesser extent the Sopranos and the Wire, always felt grimy in a way that probably made some of the sexual material feel less...cinematic.
I think this comes from aesthetic of the genre. Where The Sopranos certainly was different than anything else on TV, it still felt and looked close to things (like Goodfellas) that the audience was familiar with. Audiences just aren't used to seeing R-rated material from fantasy.
But really it isn't even the charge of gratuity that I take issue with, it's the notion that it's somehow unprecedented or particularly remarkable. Heck, GoT isn't even the most sexual show on HBO, a title held proudly by Sookie and company.
jenny My comment was not about being offended, it was first and foremost to post the link to the SNL bit, which I thought was really funny and on point. I never thought twice about sex scenes in The Sopranos, or The Tudors, because they were well-written and fit seamlessly into the story. But a lot of the sex depicted in GoT takes me completely out of the story, cause it just strikes me as juvenile, not adult, writing.
April 23, 2012 at 7:31PM ESTCase in point, one of the scenes in the spoof, the infamous sexposition with the two women going at it, while the whorehouse owner gives them instruction mixed into his monologue about history, made me laugh out loud.
The point I was trying to make was not about the sex, it was about the writing.
Jesse Frankly, the sex in GoT isn't really sexy at all. It's just something that people do in Westeros, a lot, without regard for others.
April 23, 2012 at 9:00PM ESTI'm pretty much desensitized to the nudity and sex, as a result.
Hell, much of the time it's only natural. Theon and Tyrion are lecherous. Littlefinger owns a brothel. These are characters that are around sex a lot.
That said, I'd prefer if they cut back on the sex and found something else for characters to do while dishing exposition.
Feasting, practicing swordplay, whatever. There's plenty more of that stuff in the books than sex. The show has only had one really good feast scene, despite food being a pretty major element of the books.
MBG But in here we're not supposed to talk about those things that rhyme with cooks.
April 24, 2012 at 4:00PM ESTDr. Dunkenstein Tedd, I'm going to have to disagree with you pretty strongly regarding the relative importance of the Bing on the Sopranos. In addition to the various scenes that really couldn't have taken place anywhere else(Tony catching Jackie Jr. there or just the introduction of the stripper character that Ralphie eventually kills) it was important as a means of showing the vast divide between the seedy, hedonistic work life and dry suburban family life. Hanging around a butcher shop doesn't do that, no matter how much you like bacon.
April 25, 2012 at 4:07AM ESTNow, that's not to say that Littlefinger's business doesn't similarly serve a purpose and I've thought it's been used to effect at times(the scene where Ned starts choking him when he thought that's where Littlefinger had taken his wife or when Littlefinger had to the threaten the girl recently).
The issue people are having is with the scenes in which sex is more or less incidental to the exposition being dished out. The only thing McNulty said to the waitress was "Can I get scrapple with that?". What you took away from that scene was how much of a trainwreck he was. They weren't using the sex as a staging device for a speech.
As Jesse says above, there are lots of ways to handle exposition. GoT seems to think it's pretty exclusively the realm of post-, pre or during coital chatter.
jenny
April 23, 2012 at 2:12AM EST Reply to CommentI really like this show but some of the sex scenes are so ridiculous, I’ve often thought, who wrote this, a 14 yr old boy? I’ve wondered why no critics address this except to call it sexposition, as if that makes it less silly. Anyhow, SNL did a great send up of this, it’s like they read my mind….only the writer is 13 not 14.
http://gawker.com/5902076/snl-explains-the-nudity-in-game-of-thrones
Grifter Ok. We get it.
April 23, 2012 at 4:11AM ESTThing is, I prefer tits and ass any-single-day to watching someone get their head blown off.
Does not affect my overall enjoyment of the show, plotwise or acting-wise.
Most seem to prefer the opposite, though!
Kyle
April 23, 2012 at 2:53AM EST Reply to CommentMy gf and I were confused...it felt like there was a scene missing before Stannis & Renly's meeting.
We hadn't seen Stannis since Episode 2, and suddenly he's meeting with Renly? A scene where Renly reacts to the news of Stannis showing up (unannounced/invited?) would have been helpful.
Where exactly was this meeting happening? How big is Stannis' army compared to Renly's?
Snap I agree that they should have done something to set up the Renly Stannis meetup. It wouldn't have even had to be much of a scene. Another minute or two to the running time and that part would have flowed a lot better. Had no problem with how they handled Harrenhal and Qarth though.
April 23, 2012 at 11:23AM ESTDr. Dunkenstein Remember that whole don't talk about stuff from the books thing? C'mon guys.
April 23, 2012 at 12:23PM ESTsepinwall "Remember that whole don't talk about stuff from the books thing? C'mon guys."
April 23, 2012 at 12:35PM ESTYES. GO POST ON THE MESSAGE BOARD IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS STUFF THAT HAPPENS IN THE BOOKS.
I don't care if you think you're being circumspect. STOP. IT. NOW.
The respective comments have been deleted, but good Lord, people. How hard is this?
Jesse You might want to check out the Reader's Guide on the HBO site. It's got maps and various other supplements that really give a lot of added depth to the show.
April 23, 2012 at 9:04PM ESTTo put it simply, Renly's war camp is fairly close to both Dragonstone and King's Landing.
And Stannis doesn't have much of an army. I don't believe he's called in his banners at this point, though I could be mistaken.
Renly, on the other hand, has 100,000 soldiers and controles Highgarden, a pretty huge swathe of land.
phillosophy
April 23, 2012 at 3:04AM EST Reply to CommentAs a non GoT book reader, that smoke monster birthing scene could possibly be the 'jump the shark' moment. Similar to Smokey turning into a fist and slamming Eko around.
I feel the other "magical/fantastical" things we've seen, are already pushing the limits of the show to casual viewers... depending where they go with this "shadow/shade" thing, could be a let down.
whistlingmtn I have several moments in my head where I think the series could alienate viewers, but I don't think this is one.
April 23, 2012 at 7:44AM ESTYou won't be let down.
Tedd Considering there were ice zombies in the first scene of the series (as others have pointed out), it seems like the shadow baby shouldn't be too much of a stretch for anyone watching.
April 23, 2012 at 9:47AM ESTRobert "it seems like the shadow baby shouldn't be too much of a stretch for anyone watching."
April 23, 2012 at 3:03PM ESTMaybe, but there's something about a witch producing an incorporeal spirit-demon that has a different look and feel than things like zombies, dragons or immunity to flame.
Zombies and dragons are basically just monsters. They are extraordinary and, yes, supernatural, but they can also be though of as animals with unusual abilities and life cycles.
Fire (or poison) immunity, while definitely extraordinary/unrealistic, isn't super flashy.
Apparitions and mystical conjurations take things a step further. In a story where such things are depicted, you can easily imagine things progressing to the point where you have old men with beards flinging fireballs and lightning bolts at each other, which would be a step a way from the relatively gritty and realistic tone established by the rest of the series.
I also feel like that scene was a little too much of a special effects/CG showcase. What if instead of grasping smoke-claws emerging from Mel, we instead saw a shadow (one just a little bit darker than would seem natural) with no apparent source slowly grow over the ground in front of her?
Now, I don't know what abilities this shadow/smoke child is actually supposed to have, so maybe it's necessary for the story for us to see that it has at least a semi-corporeal form. I just know that what we saw looked a bit cheesy.
Tedd Fair point, I just meant that the author (and tv producers) placed something distinctively supernatural in the first scene for a reason. And although I did like the scene (and don't think the shadow baby looked at all cheesy--I thought the shot of its hands grasping Melisandre's ankles was pretty darn creepy), I think you're version sounds even better. And cheaper, too.
April 23, 2012 at 4:11PM ESTMadel @Robert - Yes, I agree fully - white walkers are just a hibernating species of 'animal' with the ability to reanimate dead meat - and dragons are just another species of animal believed to be extinct (not that far removed from direwolves) - plus I would add that the series laid the groundwork and 'logic' for these other supernatural elements much better than for the shadow-birthing witch - who seems to arrive from out of nowhere with the power to alter wars. Where was she when Robert was fighting the Targareons?
April 23, 2012 at 5:51PM ESTJesse Whitewalkers aren't "animals." I know we're not supposed to discuss the books, but in the first chapter of the book they're described as about 7 feet tall, humanoid, wearing armor that helps them blend in with the forest (shifting like a mirage, Predator style), and they use crystal swords that can cut virtually through anything. It's also mentioned that they ride giant ice-spiders.
April 23, 2012 at 9:13PM ESTYou're introduced to them in the first chapter of the book / 10 minutes of the show, with no setup at all.
I can't help but imagine that if they'd introduced a shade in the first 10 minutes and this scene introduced the first reanimated corpse and White Walker, you'd be complaining just the same.
Madel I put the word animal in quotes because I understood that they are humanoid - but you do know that humans are animals, don't know? As I said, I haven't read the books, but unless whitewalkers are NOT many-celled organisms requiring complex food materials, they are likely animals.
April 23, 2012 at 10:24PM ESTIn any case, you missed my original point, which is that the introduction of the scope and power (reanimation) of the whitewalkers was done over the entirety of season one - with stories and rumors and incidences - not in the first ten minutes, which actually hardly gave away any info about them (and, according to your comment, there is still a lot which hasn't been revealed).
rowan729 Just fyi, for those of you who found the shadow clutching Mel's legs to be over the top or unnecessary, that specific image comes right from the source material. So, it was not a choice by the show creators to have that thing grab her legs, they simply followed what GRRM did that was so wonderfully creepy in the source material. It was a nice touch, I thought, and a direct nod to us book readers who were so freaked out when we read that. It translated perfectly to the screen, I think. It was a very big "WTF did I just read?" moment in the books, so I thought the shock value of what was happening was done well for tv.
April 24, 2012 at 1:32PM ESTWaltEagle
April 23, 2012 at 3:45AM EST Reply to CommentCast shuffle indeed. It's only been four episodes, but there have only been a handful of people in all of them: Tyrion, Bronn, Littlefinger, Arya, and Gendry.
Evan It's unfortunately the way it needs to be as everyone starts getting scattered and there are a lot of different threads happening. I'd rather more focused episodes with fewer characters than unfocused episodes with quick cuts between the various threads.
April 23, 2012 at 10:18AM ESTJeff
April 23, 2012 at 3:55AM EST Reply to CommentHonestly, I thought this was one of the best hours of TV I've ever seen. It felt like a movie.
chrispepper
April 23, 2012 at 4:27AM EST Reply to CommentSo all hail king smokey? Heir to the king!
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