Inside Television with Alan Sepinwall

Press tour: '2 Broke Girls' panel turns ugly with racism, raunchiness charges

Things get tense between the critics and producer Michael Patrick King

By Alan Sepinwall Wednesday, Jan 11, 2012 3:12 PM

Michael Patrick King, Beth Behrs and Kat Dennings on the set of "2 Broke Girls."

Credit: CBS

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PASADENA - I walk up to "2 Broke Girls" co-creator Michael Patrick King, offer my hand and say, "Mr. King, I'm sorry things got so ugly there, but I wanted to say that it came from a place where a lot of us in the room like the parts of your show involving Kat and Beth, and want the rest of the show to live up to that."

King, stone-faced, silently turns and walks off the stage.

30 minutes earlier…

King and his two stars Kat Dennings and Beth Behrs came on stage looking bright and happy. They had no idea what was coming.

Because here's the thing about "2 Broke Girls": As I would ultimately say to King after things went horribly, horribly awry, this is a show that has some promising material involving the friendship and adventures of Max and Caroline. But it is also a show that grinds to a halt whenever Max and Caroline report to work at that diner where their colleagues are a trio of offensive ethnic caricatures and the customers are one-dimensional hipsters who are the butt of the same joke over and over.

Sometimes, with shows that feature obvious flaws, a press tour session will convey the sense that the people in charge of that show are aware of the flaws and are hard at work at fixing them.

The "2 Broke Girls" panel was the opposite of that.

It was among the most tense TCA panels I've ever attended, and certainly involving a show that is both that successful and one where a lot of people in the room enjoy at least part of it.

Earlier in the day, I had asked CBS entertainment president Nina Tassler how she felt about the diner scenes. She praised King and noted that, as with past CBS comedy hits like "The Big Bang Theory" and "How I Met Your Mother," it takes time to add "dimensionality" to the supporting characters, but that she had spoken with King about doing just that.

And does she actually like the diner scenes?

"First of all, I think that they're an equal opportunity offender. Everybody gets digs. The comment in our dialogue with Michael is, "Yes, continue to dimensionalize, continue to get more specific, continue to build them out.' But again, our track record shows we do know how to build comedy hits. We've done that with all of the comedies on the air, and will continue to do that."

King came out, beaming, and parroted the "equal opportunity line," insisting, "I like to say that the big story about race on our show is that so many are represented."

A reporter brought up Tassler's earlier comments. King denied that he had been asked to change anything about the show, and tried to equate the writing of the two white main characters with that of the minority ones.

"If you talk about stereotypes," he explained, "every character, when it's born, is a stereotype: A blonde and a brunette, which has certain stigmas as well, which we've tried to defuse and grow." He added that every character would get shading with time, but that "A short character like Han will always be referred to as short."

The reporter referred to the diner characters as "one-note." King bristled.

"I don't think the characters were one-note. I think the characters were the first note," he said. "The characters are dimensional, but they're shown in segments of 21 minutes, which limits the dimensions you can see. I will call you in five years, and you will have accrued enough time to figure out if these characters became fully fledged-out."

I asked if he felt he had done a better job shading in Max and Caroline than the supporting characters.

"Yes. It's called '2 Broke Girls,'" he insisted. "Our main job is to take care of the girls. They are the engine, they are the heart, they are the soul and they are the acid. So we're always going to throw to them first... The other characters will grow and grow and grow as they do with ensembles." He added that "I personally am thrilled with everything we're doing" when I asked specifically if he was content with the quality of the diner scenes.

Another reporter tried to approach the diner problem from a gentler, more proactive angle, asking whether Max and Caroline might leave their jobs and open up their cupcake business sooner rather than later.

"I think one of the important realities of '2 Broke Girls' is the word 'broke,'" he said. "We try very much to deal with the reality of how much money moves through their life... I don't foresee a way that the girls could raise $350,000 in a season. To me, we will follow the realistic and Chutes and Ladders of building a business. Maybe they'll get a big chunk of money at some point this season, but not enough. I don't foresee them leaving the diner. I like them at the diner. I like the look of the diner."

Quickly, the questions returned to the issue of the ethnic stereotyping. King noted that the last three episodes they've filmed haven't featured any jokes about Han's ethnicity, but wouldn't commit to stopping them altogether.

"I believe Matthew Moy (who plays Han) is almost a unique being unto himself," he said. "Would you say that the blonde rich bitch is a stereotype?"

When pressed further on whether it's appropriate for him to be writing those jokes, King argued, "I'm gay! I'm putting in gay stereotypes every week! I don't find it offensive, any of this. I find it comic to take everybody down, which is what we are doing."

Fienberg leaped in at this point and asked whether being a member of one oppressed minority gave him license to make fun of every other oppressed minority.

"Being a comedy writer gives you permission to be an outsider and poke fun at what people think about other people," King said.

Fienberg then asked about content restrictions they've had, given that this is a show that uses the word "vagina" frequently and has had many not-so-thinly-veiled references to various sex acts. He specifically mentioned "facials," and the panel seemed confused, insisting on the more mainstream definition of the term and acting like they'd never made any jokes alluding to the Urban Dictionary definition. (Do not click if you don't want to know.)

"You're hearing things that don't exist," Dennings insisted.

"I don't think I am, Kat," Fienberg replied.

(For the record, the joke in question was in the episode "And the '90s Horse Party," and began with Caroline talking about a wad of bills. You can, unfortunately, figure out the rest. Google can be your friend if need be.)

"Every conversation we've had about edge of '2 Broke Girls' is based on extreme wit," said the non-humble King. "It's a sharp wit. It's about words. We seem to be offending people with the use of words rather than nudity. There has been no nudity on our show, and apparently there doesn't need to be nudity to push an edge. So we're more than happy to toil with our paint box of words and see what comes up."

A reporter asked Dennings and Behrs a question about the horse that plays Chestnut, and they almost exploded in relief at getting a question that wasn't sharply critical of the series.

"I wish he was here right now!" King quipped.

Things took a particularly uncomfortable turn when the reporter who had initially asked about Tassler's comments again tried to get King to clarify his remarks, reading the exact quote from the transcript of Tassler's executive session.

King asked the reporter for his name. The reporter gave it.

"So you're Irish?" King asked.

"Yes," the reporter replied.

"So we've identified your sexual problem," King said.

Hearing the exact phrasing of Tassler's question, King then took issue with how the reporter had asked it earlier, saying, "You didn't ask me, 'Did Nina tell you to continue and dimensionalize the characters?' The answer to that would have been yes."

Throughout the panel, there were so many ways King could defused each and every one of these controversies. When asked about Nina's comments, for instance, he could have said upfront, "Nina and I talk all the time about the show, and we're both conscious of trying to deepen these characters." Every question, no matter how pointed, had an easy Showrunner 101 answer waiting for it. Instead, King repeatedly poured gasoline onto the fire and seemed puzzled that anyone would question anything about the show at all.

"This show is so much fun for the audience," he said towards the end, veering between hurt and angry. "I'm surprised the questions are not about fun."

He seemed so mystified by where the anger was coming from that when the session ended, I felt that I should at least say directly, in terms of both phrasing and proximity, how I felt and why at least I was so insistent on asking about this stuff, and in this way. I don’t know that I expected King to respond, which he ultimately didn't.(*) But I wanted to say it.

(*) UPDATE: The CBS publicist for the show approached me after this story went up and says that King walked away because she was pulling him off the stage so they could set up for the next panel, and that she had been telling him for several minutes that he had to go. And in fairness to her, I did go up to talk to King several minutes after the session ended, which is often when the scrums break up. It's entirely possible he might have engaged with me had it been earlier.

I've been checking in and out on "2 Broke Girls," hoping that King would eventually realize that there is a part of the show that works and a part that just doesn't at all, and steer towards the good part. But everything he said over the course of that uncomfortable panel made it very clear that the show "2 Broke Girls" is now is the show that it's always going to be.

Alan Sepinwall may be reached at sepinwall@hitfix.com

Alan Sepinwall
Sr. Editor, What's Alan Watching

Alan Sepinwall has been reviewing television since the mid-'90s, first for Tony Soprano's hometown paper, The Star-Ledger, and now for HitFix. His new book, "The Revolution Was Televised," about the last 15 years of TV drama, is for sale at Amazon. He can be reached at sepinwall@hitfix.com

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Next 228 Comments

Karyn

This sounds like one of those things that I really wish I had been there for while also being very thankful I was not there. I imagine "can cut the tension with a knife" is not an atmosphere you want to have at a press event.
January 11, 2012 at 4:21PM EST Reply to Comment
Ace

Wow. That sounds almost so awkward enough to be a TV show itself.
January 11, 2012 at 4:21PM EST Reply to Comment
- pamelajaye maybe they should run with it. Is Isaiah Washington still available?
  January 11, 2012 at 6:44PM EST
- not_her I'd rather watch that show than the current 2 Broke Girls.
  January 12, 2012 at 11:31AM EST
Paul F

More articles should start in media res, but I think eventually the technique would get overused and just feel lazy.

That panel sounds incredibly awkward.
January 11, 2012 at 4:22PM EST Reply to Comment
- pamelajaye I did notice and enjoy the (en?) media res.
  as long as we don't get any like that Luke ep of ER where the thing was in reverse - that was unwatchable. (whereas I had less trouble with the reverse ep of 30something.)
  January 11, 2012 at 6:46PM EST
- J "...he technique would get overused and just feel lazy."
  
  I groaned when I saw it at the top because the device has been pummeled to death on too many shows I watch. 'Castle,' 'Breaking Bad,' get yourself some better beginnings so you can leave your middles where they belong.
  January 11, 2012 at 7:01PM EST
LJA

Where's Burley the Koala when you need him most?
January 11, 2012 at 4:24PM EST Reply to Comment
klg19

Geez, MPK: defensive much?
January 11, 2012 at 4:24PM EST Reply to Comment
crapshoot

Alan, I'm a fan (and can't stand 2 Broke Girls), but this sounds a lot like a bunch of critics deciding what humor is acceptable and what isn't. IMO, that's really unfair - and I can understand why the creator of the show thinks a bunch of critics are somewhat less relevant than the audience that apparently laps up this stuff.
January 11, 2012 at 4:25PM EST Reply to Comment
- DB Cooper 1. I'm comfortable with critics "deciding" that racist humor isn't acceptable.
  2. It was an interview panel. King went up there to take questions. This wasn't unsolicited feedback.
  3. If he wants to defend racist humor, he's entitled to do it - or say, "The fans love it. Screw off."
  
  January 11, 2012 at 4:30PM EST
- To be fair, that's kind of what critics do.
  
  And to me, as someone who occasionally watches the show, I don't care from an offensive standpoint, just from a "it's not funny or entertaining" standpoint.
  January 11, 2012 at 4:37PM EST
- fbihop How dare critics have opinions on a TV show!
  January 11, 2012 at 4:42PM EST
- @Crapshoot. I've just figured out what really bugged me about that comment. Have you noticed that things have changed a lot since the good old days when the only African-American women you'd see on TV were housemaids or, a little later, hookers and crackheads on welfare? That didn't magically change overnight, but because a lot of people (including awful "critics") decided that just wasn't good enough. And while YMMV, I'm not that upset that certain ethnic and racial slurs are much less acceptable in polite company (and in the media) than they used to be.
  January 11, 2012 at 5:51PM EST
- crapshoot Craig, not that it matters in any way whatsoever, but I'm a minority myself. The idea that every stupid stereotyping joke is MASS EVIL RACISM is blatantly absurd, and detracts from real racism. And are we really going to censor comedy?
  
  Look, I think the shows sucks, and the humor is awful - I watched the first episode, cringed, and checked out (for example, the Metro PCS ads are awful to me , but I don't think it means the company is racist). But I will defend their right to do it, rather than passing some purity test (ie, its okay to make fun of this race and this religion, but not XYZ). Its comedy - shock value is part of it. Even if its done badly.
  January 11, 2012 at 6:18PM EST
- As someone who actually watches the show, the parts the critics were objecting to are both routinely offensive and the least interesting and least funny part of the show. The show is great when the two girls are together doing things that aren't at the diner. The diner scenes are a black hole of suck.
  
  January 11, 2012 at 6:19PM EST
- @Crapshoot: Hey, I'll defend to the death the right of showrunners to engage in racist b.s., outright misogyny, unfunny rape jokes and giggling about a male character being drugged and gang-raped receiving his "comeuppance" for sleeping around. And you know what, networks are going to keep giving folks like King, Chuck Lorre and Alan Ball a pass for it as long as it keeps attracting audiences and advertisers.
  
  But Alan and I are trying to "censor" people by saying it stinks? Please, I don't think the other c-word means what you think it does...
  January 11, 2012 at 6:38PM EST
- pamelajaye >And you know what, networks are going to keep giving folks like King, Chuck Lorre and Alan Ball a pass for it as long as it keeps attracting audiences and advertisers.
  
  Not being one of said audience - i'm doing my part by not watching this or 2 1/2 (probably should have watched Mike & Molly though) Of course based on what I'm reading the sex jokes would turn me off fast. I believe when I was younger and even more virgin of ear, I didn't watch Cheers cause I thought there was "too much sex." Imagine.
  In either case, Alan's reviews (first ones) made me even more not want to watch this or Whitney.
  As for the rest of the audience - do they have have the arm strength to lift a remote? (or are they just as crass and whatever as the characters on the show?)
  While I was reading about how the critics saved us from un-PC as bigoted jokes, All In the Family crossed my mind...
  January 11, 2012 at 7:03PM EST
- Bryan P @Nicholas - you hit the nail on the head! Totally agree. I watched the first four episodes back in the fall, and really liked the two girls together, but it's the diner scenes that made me give up on the show.
  January 11, 2012 at 8:48PM EST
- sojourner It's not coincidental that the offensive bits are unfunny. Mostly they assume that simply presenting a tired stereotype is funny in and of itself: Chinese people speak funny! In the two episodes I saw, those characters were reduced to their race and nothing else. Even if all they are supposed to be is a punchline delivery machine, the punchlines need to actually be funny. And funny relies a little bit on clever. This is just dumb racism - the opposite of clever.
  January 12, 2012 at 12:14AM EST
- awelle I don´t see how criticizing the show is in any way unfair or even the tiniest attempt to censor anything.
  
  To amount to either of that the critics you are referring to would need to have the power to shut something down. They really really don´t, as you seem to be aware of yourself as you do mention that the amount of people watching is much more important to the showrunners.
  
  Critics or commenters on the internet not liking their show isn´t hindering them in making or broadcasting their show. So I don´t see how it is unfair or could be called censoring in any way. They still get to produce, broadcast and make a lot of money with their show. So they should be able to deal with some in my opinion well deserved criticism. You don´t really need to defend their right to do it, because that right is in no way being attacked by the show being criticized at a press event.
  January 12, 2012 at 3:50AM EST
crapshoot

Write a comment.Alan, I'm a fan (and can't stand 2 Broke Girls), but this sounds a lot like a bunch of critics deciding what humor is acceptable and what isn't. IMO, that's really unfair - and I can understand why the creator of the show thinks a bunch of critics are somewhat less relevant than the audience that apparently laps up this stuff. ..
January 11, 2012 at 4:25PM EST Reply to Comment
RobB

I watched it for the first (and last) time this week. The laughs were far too few and the cringe-worthy moments far too many.
January 11, 2012 at 4:25PM EST Reply to Comment
crapshoot

Write a commenAlan, I'm a fan (and can't stand 2 Broke Girls), but this sounds a lot like a bunch of critics deciding what humor is acceptable and what isn't. IMO, that's really unfair - and I can understand why the creator of the show thinks a bunch of critics are somewhat less relevant than the audience that apparently laps up this stuff.
January 11, 2012 at 4:26PM EST Reply to Comment
keith

How common is this, for showrunners to be out of touch with critics (and presumably the audience)?
January 11, 2012 at 4:26PM EST Reply to Comment
- alynch I wouldn't presume that.
  January 11, 2012 at 4:28PM EST
- keith I was being polite. Off topic because I haven't seen 2 Broke Girls but I've noticed Sepinwall's opinions being odd a lot lately. He really liked Walking Dead sitting around a farm for weeks, for example.
  January 11, 2012 at 4:38PM EST
- Wow, so it's "odd" to call out racist caricatures?
  January 11, 2012 at 4:48PM EST
- mrbilliam I don't know that he did like the bulk of WD season 2 (I remember him commenting that most of the character stuff didn't really work), though he wasn't as overtly negative as others.
  January 11, 2012 at 5:00PM EST
- Roy van der Meij *Cough* Veena Sud *Cough*
  January 11, 2012 at 6:46PM EST
- pamelajaye >I was being polite. Off topic because I haven't seen 2 Broke Girls but I've noticed Sepinwall's opinions being odd a lot lately.
  
  Is it something in the water? Yesterday my brother got into a fight with Ken Jennings...
  January 11, 2012 at 7:06PM EST
- pamelajaye actuallu to stay on topic, I should add it was due to the perceived level of sexual content of jokes. (no racism though)
  January 11, 2012 at 7:09PM EST
Stuff_of_Legend

Dang...wish I could have been there.

And this makes me sad...I still feel like there is a pretty good show buried in 2 Broke Girls, if they would cut away the crap and focus on the two girls and them building a friendship at the same time they are building a business. But...King is obviously perfectly happy with the show the way it is, and looking at the ratings why wouldn't he be?

I will probably continue to half-heartedly watch, because I do think the two leads are doing good work and they make me laugh at least a couple times every week. But I no longer have any hope that the show is going to fix any of its myriad of problems, and will never be the show that I was hoping it would be.

No, I am not Todd VanderWerff, although reading this back to myself it certainly sounds like it could be...
January 11, 2012 at 4:26PM EST Reply to Comment
DB Cooper

Were I this Irish reporter, I think I'd have cracked him one in the mouth.

Being, of course, a quick-to-violence Irishman.
January 11, 2012 at 4:28PM EST Reply to Comment
- Liz That's the part that's really bizarre to me. I can understand how, up to to that point, King thought that everyone was just picking on him and being h8terz for no good reason. He's wrong, but I can figure out his thought process.
  
  But you just got raked over the coals for a bunch of cheap stereotype jokes, and when someone asks you a completely different question...you go for a cheap stereotype joke? Huh? Why would you do that? Do you have the short-term memory of a goldfish?
  
  I hope King at least had the courtesy to look embarassed, in a "Did I just say that out loud" way.
  January 11, 2012 at 7:24PM EST
DougMac

Ausiello tweeted how awkward it was too
January 11, 2012 at 4:28PM EST Reply to Comment
Wade Kwon

One broke panel.

>>"Being a comedy writer gives you permission to be an outsider and poke fun at what people think about other people," King said.

You know what give you license to poke fun at what people think about other people? Being fucking funny. (See Lisa Lampanelli.)

Having a shred of self awareness (See the "Cougar Town" writer Alan interviewed.)

But not being a dick and assuming equal-opportunity bashing means laughs all around. In this case, it'll be a celebratory wake if/when this show gets canceled.

January 11, 2012 at 4:28PM EST Reply to Comment
Josh

Wow - that Irish comment seems incredibly out-of-place and hateful - and out of nowhere. I'm surprised more people aren't up in arms about that.
January 11, 2012 at 4:29PM EST Reply to Comment
- kronicfatigue He tried to defuse criticism of racism by making a racist joke?
  January 11, 2012 at 4:40PM EST
- Paddy O'Cinnamon What did that Irish comment mean? What sexual problem is connected with being Irish? I'm well versed in ignorant stereotypes but I'm clueless on this one. Watched the show twice and bailed.
  January 11, 2012 at 6:01PM EST
- Casey Really. There's a difference, albeit a subtle one, between making blanket racist jokes on your show and claiming you're an equal-opportunity offender, and flat-out insulting a man to his face in front of a roomful of people - who, incidentally, are writing about it. It seems like he's going out of his way to isolate what remains of his fanbase.
  January 11, 2012 at 6:01PM EST
- pamelajaye I was not aware there were sexual stereotypes about the Irish. I know there used to be discrimination long ago (my mother told me and I'm reading the autobiooralhistory by Jackie Kennedy this week, so I've been reminded)
  January 11, 2012 at 7:31PM EST
- Jay I assume it has to do with being not so much Irish as Irish Catholic and the prudishness involved with that.
  January 11, 2012 at 8:14PM EST
- Rory I would assume it is a two stage joke that requires two stereotypes. Stage 1: All Irish are Catholics.
  Stage 2: All Catholics (specifically Irish Catholics & descendents) are sexually repressed.
  
  At least, that's a fairly common joke in the UK
  January 11, 2012 at 8:23PM EST
- Sloshkosh Think back to Good Will Hunting. There is a comment about someone's Irish Curse... Though I suppose there is no reason for me to assume that King was going after an actual stereotype or if that's just the way he talks...
  January 11, 2012 at 8:27PM EST
- A. Yes, I'm fairly certain King was going for "Irish Curse", which dropped my jaw a little bit.
  January 11, 2012 at 9:20PM EST
- Eric827 It doesn't make sense for King to say, "You're offended by the show, so you must have a small penis!"
  
  I agree with those who say that his "joke" was that the guy must be a sexually repressed Catholic.
  January 16, 2012 at 11:48PM EST
Garrett

By "2 Broke Girls" I'm pretty sure they mean this show is creatively bankrupt. VAGINA *laughtrack*
January 11, 2012 at 4:29PM EST Reply to Comment
Masha

Can we start a scale for showrunners? Michael Patrick King is 1 and Mike Schur is 10. Rate all the other showrunners!
January 11, 2012 at 4:31PM EST Reply to Comment
- LJA Bill Lawrence gets a 10.
  January 11, 2012 at 4:33PM EST
- thejoshbaker So Veena Sud is a -7?
  January 11, 2012 at 4:33PM EST
- frenchsomething I think Bill Lawrence would challenge for that 10 rating!
  January 11, 2012 at 4:34PM EST
- Mike J Veena Sud = 1
  January 11, 2012 at 4:38PM EST
- dezbot Tim Kring's a 2 and David Shore's a 3.
  January 11, 2012 at 4:46PM EST
- Crow3711 Mid-Lost I'd have given Cuse and Lindelos a 9. They were fun, self-aware, punchy, and filthy liars. They made themselves a real part of the game and I appreciated that.
  January 11, 2012 at 5:20PM EST
- Crow3711 and Vince Gilligan is a 10
  January 11, 2012 at 5:20PM EST
- MI Dan Harmon is an 11. Vince Gilligan is a 12.
  January 11, 2012 at 5:28PM EST
- INM Agree that Bill Lawrence should get a perfect score.
  January 11, 2012 at 6:05PM EST
- Ben We need a much higher number than 10 to apply to any show where David Simon is in charge.
  January 11, 2012 at 7:24PM EST
- ajl Mike Schur = 10, I agree (thinks very carefully about characters and story arcs, and very humble and gracious)
  Steve Levitan = 4 (declining show quality-wise; smug, smug, smug)
  Dan Harmon = 7 (cares so deeply about show, which I find admirable, but is childish, hot-headed, and pretentious.
  January 11, 2012 at 7:39PM EST
- pamelajaye Bill Lawrence is an 11, Dan Harmon a 10 (no parties) I like Bill Prady a lot (he retweeted my question about how to get duck poop out of my laptop keyboard among other things) Shonda Rhimes - she has to deal with teen screams based on ABC promos - she put us thru seasons 3 and 4, and she lies about tumors, but she's regained my trust - i'm give her an 8 - and she's easy to dance to.Mike Royce has been very kind. I'll give him a 9.5.
  Josh Schwartz seems a non-presence.
  David E Kelley - will only be on Twitter when it comes out on the Yellow Lagal Pad platform, sadly.
  I don't know a thing about the creator of Parenthood.
  Krista Vernoff no longer runs Grey's Anatomy (I'm sad)
  January 11, 2012 at 7:39PM EST
- pamelajaye I forgot Sorkin. What does he get for the TWOP thing I missed? I did once get the chance to thank him on his Facebook Movie group (thanks Alan) for Shibboleth and her replied. That was cool.
  January 11, 2012 at 7:42PM EST
- Action_Kate John Rogers: 10
  Ron Moore: 10
  David Shore: 3
  January 11, 2012 at 8:59PM EST
- Gen I'd give John Rogers and Chris Downey a 9 or 10.
  January 11, 2012 at 9:04PM EST
- Dezbot I'll give Kurt Sutter a 10 just so he won't kick my butt. :-D He's really more of a 5 lately, though.
  January 12, 2012 at 11:45AM EST
amg

Wow. King's knee-jerk response to being called out for ethnic stereotypes is to invoke one to lash out personally at a reporter pushing him on a question? I am stunned, but that is awfully revealing.

I also once or twice watched an ep after the horrible pilot this season since others insisted there were good parts of the show. I still didn't quite get it, but I am certainly not going to tune in again after hearing this.

I feel bad for Behrs and Denning. Can someone just give them their own show minus King?
January 11, 2012 at 4:34PM EST Reply to Comment
- LJA Didn't King get fired from Sex and the City and HBO had Darren Starr take over?
  January 11, 2012 at 4:36PM EST
- amg LJA-I don't know...I know he was definitely in charge of the movies. Which I think would mean he still had a relationship with HBO since I assume they "own" the franchise? Its a nice thought though, especially if they can use this as indication of him moving forward!
  January 11, 2012 at 4:55PM EST
- LJA AMG - I think I had it backwards. I looked it up, and it looks like Star created the show and King replaced *him*.
  January 11, 2012 at 5:07PM EST
- amg Ah. Well, still, it shows there is precedent for replacing problematic folks with potentially better ones!
  January 11, 2012 at 5:47PM EST
Chestnut

C'mon guys, grow up! it's just a tv show
January 11, 2012 at 4:34PM EST Reply to Comment
- bitchstolemyremote Watch it Chesnut or you'll be off to the glue factory!
  January 11, 2012 at 5:20PM EST
- brentalistair IMO, its "grown up" to care about the quality of the content you are being fed regardless of the medium. Its childish to pretend quality doesn't matter because of the medium. As a grown up, I expect other grown ups who are paid a lot of money to be funny to at least make an effort to do so rather than phoning it in by reaching to tired and hackneyed stereotypes for material. When they fail, I think its great that other grown up people to tell them so rather than simply accept their poor effort because it is "just a television show." YMMV.
  January 12, 2012 at 3:45AM EST
Ricardo

Wow. Just wow.

I have to ask you something Alan: Is the way that King behaved on this panel going to subconsciously influence the affection you have for his show?
January 11, 2012 at 4:34PM EST Reply to Comment
eakawie

What's the opposite of "adorkable?"
January 11, 2012 at 4:38PM EST Reply to Comment
- fraying Douchebaggable?
  January 13, 2012 at 4:26AM EST
Joanna

Holy shit.
January 11, 2012 at 4:38PM EST Reply to Comment
gregel

Anyone who has ever interviewed Patrick King about his Sex and the City movies (I was a big fan of the first one) knows there is no humble there. Nothing is "wrong." He'll stand by the second one till he dies. I'm actually not surprised by his behavior from this report.
January 11, 2012 at 4:40PM EST Reply to Comment
- elizabeth THIS. This whole exchange gave me so much insight into why I really didn't like either movie (the first one was too maudlin, the second...speaks for itself).
  January 11, 2012 at 5:37PM EST
- Anna Ah. This explains a LOT. I'm sad now, because I was hoping, like lot of other people, that the show would gt a lot better for the sake of it's two leads.
  August 18, 2012 at 7:06PM EST
alynch

Here's a comedy question for Alan, Dan, and anybody else who might feel like commenting:

Can something be both offensive and funny, and if so, can something be both racist and funny? And if the answer to both those questions is yes, then does the animosity have less to do with the premise of the jokes and more to do with the quality of their execution?
January 11, 2012 at 4:41PM EST Reply to Comment
- Family Guy's Pat Tillman joke earlier this season is an example that was both offensive and funny, crossing that line and being short and sharp enough to be witty. Racist and funny? In proper company. Personally I'm not innocent of telling funnies that may be deemed racist, but usually with people where it is understood that we are kidding and hold no ill will. With television it can be hard to determine the viewpoint of the writer, compounded by the fact that those jokes certainly fall upon the ears of those who would hold malice against those targeted.
  January 11, 2012 at 4:57PM EST
- Q If you find it funny you're probably not offended so it's hard to be both offensive and funny to the same person. I find potentially offensive jokes about touchy issues funny. The key is they have to be very clever and unexpected it can't just be your standard "that's what she said" fair. It also helps if the person telling the joke is part of the oppressed group, partly because they avoid the easy cliches partly because it comes off as less mean. I remember a writer once saying that the best spoofs are done by people who love what they are spoofing because they understand the subject well enough to know what's funny. People outside the group often tend to rely on stereotypes in their humor which makes it come of as racist or at best ignorant. The asian character on TBG is a good example of humor based on unimaginative stereotyping.
  January 11, 2012 at 5:13PM EST
- DB Cooper It's certainly possible. But in the case of this show, the secondary characters are both unfunny AND racist. King has put no effort into making them actual characters, so he relies on racial stereotypes for the "humor." Lazy + stereotypes = unfunny. (See also, Outsourced.)
  
  If the show was somehow racist AND funny, there would be a different conversation.
  January 11, 2012 at 5:31PM EST
- Tom Galloway There's at least one example of racist and hysterically funny; the classic Chevy Chase interviewing Richard Pryor for a janitor's job with a word association test on SNL.
  January 11, 2012 at 5:34PM EST
- The Chase/Pryor sketch is really making fun of racists more than anything, though.
  January 11, 2012 at 6:29PM EST
- ajl I think some of the humor relating to Native Americans in Pawnee, Indiana (Parks and Rec) is an illustration of humor that could be deemed "racist" on a surface level, but because the humor is clearly contextualized and satirically well-written and acted, the comedy is funny and not offensive.
  January 11, 2012 at 7:53PM EST
- Andy B. For me, the really great comedy -- the kind where I can hear the jokes a couple of times and still laugh at each one -- is the comedy that uses humor to comment on some basic human truth. The Parks and Rec (and SNL) example use race as a component of humor to comment on the silly ideas that still exist on some level of American culture, like the noble-magical-savage view of Indians that still shows up in most media portrayals.
  
  But the joke there is that this is a silly thing to believe, and races can't be reduced to types, no matter how ostensibly complimentary.
  
  In 2 Broke Girls, the joke is "haha, Asians can't drive," which, offensiveness aside, contains no insight and reveals nothing about the world beyond the fact that some people have shitty senses of humor.
  January 11, 2012 at 9:50PM EST
- sojourner I agree with Andy's take on P&R and Indians - I think it's sending up a type of racism actually, not racism at all. I wouldn't always collapse stereotypes into racism either. Stereotypes based on truth can be hilarious (e.g. Tongan character on Summer Heights High), and only become a problem when the characters have no life outside the stereotype, nothing that indicates complexity. But yeah, I guess I think comedy and racism can combine - there were funny moments on Amos and Andy which was a horifically racist show - but when you are concious that this is about justifying some people feeling like they are superior to other people, I don't feel like laughing any more.
  January 12, 2012 at 12:34AM EST
- odessasteps 'Can something be both offensive and funny, and if so, can something be both racist and funny?'
  
  Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, George Carlin would have all said yes.
  January 12, 2012 at 7:06AM EST
- J Andy, I really wish you hadn't used that example.
  
  http://newspaperrock.bluecorncomics.com/search/label/Parks%20and%20Recreation
  
  Lauding P&R's handling of Native Americans is the rough equivalent of praising Community's treatment of religion.
  January 12, 2012 at 11:47AM EST
- debbie Watching re-runs of "30 Rock" proves that this can be done, but the writers have to be very, very smart, and everyone has to be a potential target (how many episodes does Liz Lemon end up being the butt of the jokes?). But I can't compare 2 Broke Girls specifically because I don't watch it.
  January 12, 2012 at 12:33PM EST
- Ray "'Can something be both offensive and funny, and if so, can something be both racist and funny?'
  
  Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, George Carlin would have all said yes."
  
  So Eddie Murphy is dead? That explains a lot about his recent career.
  January 12, 2012 at 3:45PM EST
- Jerry Ken Jeong in the Hangover movies -- racist as hell but funny IMO because there was a twist (or several). It wasn't tired "Asians talk funny" jokes.
  January 19, 2012 at 4:11PM EST
steve_weintraub

The panel didn't know what a "facial" is? Please. Facials were INVENTED in Hollywood (by way of the San Fernando Valley).
January 11, 2012 at 4:43PM EST Reply to Comment
- DJ Doena I think it's more about the term "wad". I as a foreigner didn't get the double meaning of "wad in your face" back then, so I took the "wad of bills" at face (no pun intended) value.
  January 11, 2012 at 4:52PM EST
- seymore yeah, they're lying. I could see that punchline coming (no pun intended) from a mile away, but was somewhat surprised they got away with it at 8:30.
  January 12, 2012 at 10:56AM EST
scrivener

This article takes a very mediocre TV sitcom, a stye on the CBS eye, much too seriously. The real question is why network executives tolerate such low-hanging rotten fruit.
January 11, 2012 at 4:46PM EST Reply to Comment
- Because it gets ratings.
  January 11, 2012 at 5:02PM EST
- alynch Scoreboard!
  January 11, 2012 at 5:55PM EST
eddieisannoy

Thankfully we have these Knights of the Keyboard that can protect us from political incorrectness. At least they found another punching bag aside from Ryan Murphy so they can insert their little zings in every review
January 11, 2012 at 4:49PM EST Reply to Comment
- DB Cooper /finds site/
  /reads article/
  /logs in/
  /enters Captcha/
  /comments about how big a time-waster the site is/
  /leaves satisfied/
  January 11, 2012 at 5:33PM EST
- Hatfield Good to see Eddie is still so annoy
  January 11, 2012 at 5:44PM EST
Beth

I cant wait to hear the Firewall & Iceberg podcast when you guys cover this one! Oh boy!
January 11, 2012 at 4:49PM EST Reply to Comment
- nic919 Me too! The palpable anger during the Work It discussion was the most entertaining thing ever and this should be even better.
  January 11, 2012 at 7:42PM EST
Craig Ranapia

QUOTE: When pressed further on whether it's appropriate for him to be writing those jokes, King argued, "I'm gay! I'm putting in gay stereotypes every week! I don't find it offensive, any of this. I find it comic to take everybody down, which is what we are doing."

Reply: I'm gay too, Mister King, and please don't use your sexuality to excuse being a racist, sexist douchebag. You may be gay, but also reek of being a clueless white man who really needs to think about the position of privilege your race and penis give you in society and this industry.
January 11, 2012 at 4:51PM EST Reply to Comment
- amg Amen!
  January 11, 2012 at 4:58PM EST
- gone Wholeheartedly agree.
  January 11, 2012 at 5:14PM EST
- RX Really "privilege of race and penis"? Is this some freshman class on gender roles in oppression and media?
  January 11, 2012 at 6:20PM EST
- RX: Well, does "racist sexist d-bag" work for you? Back on Planet Earth, one Grey's Anatomy does not make Hollywood a diverse place. If anything, the number of women and minorities directing and holding senior staff production and writing posts in US network television is FALLING.
  January 11, 2012 at 6:43PM EST
- nat word up (to craig)
  
  January 11, 2012 at 6:51PM EST
- RX You're right Craig - we should have a quota system that matches US demographical data. After all, it MUST be racism for the ratios to be falling. Hollywood is clearly a bastion of right-wing thought.
  January 11, 2012 at 6:55PM EST
- RX: When you've finished with that straw man, please feel free to engage with anything I've actually said.
  January 11, 2012 at 7:06PM EST
EM

Alan: Like you, I watch 2BG because I like the leads and think the show can evolve into a solid sitcom. But if this is as good as it's going to get in terms of characterization and writing quality, then I've been wasting my time. If MPK thinks the writing evinces "sharp wit," he needs to be locked in a room and forced to watch "Frasier," "The Mary Tyler Moore Show," and "M*A*S*H" until he realizes how wrong he is.
January 11, 2012 at 4:55PM EST Reply to Comment
- Andy MPK had a right to be upset. 2 Broke girls is a successful show with fantastic ratings. The audience loves the show and I don't know anyone offended by the ethic humor. Caroline's "Wad of cash Joke" works because you don't expect the next line to come out of her month (No pun intended). What MPK has put together is nothing short of genius comedy. The girls are perfect and the supporting cast is hilarious.
  There’s no nudity and very light cursing, if any at all. This show is all about smart double meaning jokes, that work. Check out this sitcom clip on You Tube and you can see what the 14 – 29 demographic is tuning into. MPK and Whitney Cummings are just giving the audience what they want.
  www.youtube.com/watch?v=do_Klrvjk5c It’s called “My daughters Roomies” and it’s hilarious.
  
  March 16, 2012 at 2:09PM EST

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Inside Television with Alan Sepinwall

Press tour: '2 Broke Girls' panel turns ugly with racism, raunchiness charges

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Comments

Option 1

Option 2

Option 3

Karyn This sounds like one of those things that I really wish I had been there for while also being very thankful I was not there. I imagine "can cut the tension with a knife" is not an atmosphere you want to have at a press event.

Ace Wow. That sounds almost so awkward enough to be a TV show itself.

pamelajaye maybe they should run with it. Is Isaiah Washington still available?

not_her I'd rather watch that show than the current 2 Broke Girls.

Paul F More articles should start in media res, but I think eventually the technique would get overused and just feel lazy.That panel sounds incredibly awkward.

pamelajaye I did notice and enjoy the (en?) media res.as long as we don't get any like that Luke ep of ER where the thing was in reverse - that was unwatchable. (whereas I had less trouble with the reverse ep of 30something.)

J "...he technique would get overused and just feel lazy."I groaned when I saw it at the top because the device has been pummeled to death on too many shows I watch. 'Castle,' 'Breaking Bad,' get yourself some better beginnings so you can leave your middles where they belong.

LJA Where's Burley the Koala when you need him most?

klg19 Geez, MPK: defensive much?

DB Cooper 1. I'm comfortable with critics "deciding" that racist humor isn't acceptable. 2. It was an interview panel. King went up there to take questions. This wasn't unsolicited feedback.3. If he wants to defend racist humor, he's entitled to do it - or say, "The fans love it. Screw off."

To be fair, that's kind of what critics do. And to me, as someone who occasionally watches the show, I don't care from an offensive standpoint, just from a "it's not funny or entertaining" standpoint.

fbihop How dare critics have opinions on a TV show!

Bryan P @Nicholas - you hit the nail on the head! Totally agree. I watched the first four episodes back in the fall, and really liked the two girls together, but it's the diner scenes that made me give up on the show.

RobB I watched it for the first (and last) time this week. The laughs were far too few and the cringe-worthy moments far too many.

keith How common is this, for showrunners to be out of touch with critics (and presumably the audience)?

alynch I wouldn't presume that.

keith I was being polite. Off topic because I haven't seen 2 Broke Girls but I've noticed Sepinwall's opinions being odd a lot lately. He really liked Walking Dead sitting around a farm for weeks, for example.

Wow, so it's "odd" to call out racist caricatures?

mrbilliam I don't know that he did like the bulk of WD season 2 (I remember him commenting that most of the character stuff didn't really work), though he wasn't as overtly negative as others.

Roy van der Meij *Cough* Veena Sud *Cough*

pamelajaye >I was being polite. Off topic because I haven't seen 2 Broke Girls but I've noticed Sepinwall's opinions being odd a lot lately.Is it something in the water? Yesterday my brother got into a fight with Ken Jennings...

pamelajaye actuallu to stay on topic, I should add it was due to the perceived level of sexual content of jokes. (no racism though)

DB Cooper Were I this Irish reporter, I think I'd have cracked him one in the mouth. Being, of course, a quick-to-violence Irishman.

DougMac Ausiello tweeted how awkward it was too

Josh Wow - that Irish comment seems incredibly out-of-place and hateful - and out of nowhere. I'm surprised more people aren't up in arms about that.

kronicfatigue He tried to defuse criticism of racism by making a racist joke?

Paddy O'Cinnamon What did that Irish comment mean? What sexual problem is connected with being Irish? I'm well versed in ignorant stereotypes but I'm clueless on this one. Watched the show twice and bailed.

pamelajaye I was not aware there were sexual stereotypes about the Irish. I know there used to be discrimination long ago (my mother told me and I'm reading the autobiooralhistory by Jackie Kennedy this week, so I've been reminded)

Jay I assume it has to do with being not so much Irish as Irish Catholic and the prudishness involved with that.

Rory I would assume it is a two stage joke that requires two stereotypes. Stage 1: All Irish are Catholics.Stage 2: All Catholics (specifically Irish Catholics & descendents) are sexually repressed.At least, that's a fairly common joke in the UK

Sloshkosh Think back to Good Will Hunting. There is a comment about someone's Irish Curse... Though I suppose there is no reason for me to assume that King was going after an actual stereotype or if that's just the way he talks...

A. Yes, I'm fairly certain King was going for "Irish Curse", which dropped my jaw a little bit.

Eric827 It doesn't make sense for King to say, "You're offended by the show, so you must have a small penis!"I agree with those who say that his "joke" was that the guy must be a sexually repressed Catholic.

Garrett By "2 Broke Girls" I'm pretty sure they mean this show is creatively bankrupt. VAGINA *laughtrack*

Masha Can we start a scale for showrunners? Michael Patrick King is 1 and Mike Schur is 10. Rate all the other showrunners!

LJA Bill Lawrence gets a 10.

thejoshbaker So Veena Sud is a -7?

frenchsomething I think Bill Lawrence would challenge for that 10 rating!

Mike J Veena Sud = 1

dezbot Tim Kring's a 2 and David Shore's a 3.

Crow3711 Mid-Lost I'd have given Cuse and Lindelos a 9. They were fun, self-aware, punchy, and filthy liars. They made themselves a real part of the game and I appreciated that.

Crow3711 and Vince Gilligan is a 10

MI Dan Harmon is an 11. Vince Gilligan is a 12.

INM Agree that Bill Lawrence should get a perfect score.

Ben We need a much higher number than 10 to apply to any show where David Simon is in charge.

ajl Mike Schur = 10, I agree (thinks very carefully about characters and story arcs, and very humble and gracious)Steve Levitan = 4 (declining show quality-wise; smug, smug, smug)Dan Harmon = 7 (cares so deeply about show, which I find admirable, but is childish, hot-headed, and pretentious.

pamelajaye I forgot Sorkin. What does he get for the TWOP thing I missed? I did once get the chance to thank him on his Facebook Movie group (thanks Alan) for Shibboleth and her replied. That was cool.

Action_Kate John Rogers: 10Ron Moore: 10David Shore: 3

Gen I'd give John Rogers and Chris Downey a 9 or 10.

Dezbot I'll give Kurt Sutter a 10 just so he won't kick my butt. :-D He's really more of a 5 lately, though.

LJA Didn't King get fired from Sex and the City and HBO had Darren Starr take over?

amg LJA-I don't know...I know he was definitely in charge of the movies. Which I think would mean he still had a relationship with HBO since I assume they "own" the franchise? Its a nice thought though, especially if they can use this as indication of him moving forward!

LJA AMG - I think I had it backwards. I looked it up, and it looks like Star created the show and King replaced *him*.

amg Ah. Well, still, it shows there is precedent for replacing problematic folks with potentially better ones!

Chestnut C'mon guys, grow up! it's just a tv show

bitchstolemyremote Watch it Chesnut or you'll be off to the glue factory!

Ricardo Wow. Just wow.I have to ask you something Alan: Is the way that King behaved on this panel going to subconsciously influence the affection you have for his show?

eakawie What's the opposite of "adorkable?"

fraying Douchebaggable?

Joanna Holy shit.

gregel Anyone who has ever interviewed Patrick King about his Sex and the City movies (I was a big fan of the first one) knows there is no humble there. Nothing is "wrong." He'll stand by the second one till he dies. I'm actually not surprised by his behavior from this report.

elizabeth THIS. This whole exchange gave me so much insight into why I really didn't like either movie (the first one was too maudlin, the second...speaks for itself).

Anna Ah. This explains a LOT. I'm sad now, because I was hoping, like lot of other people, that the show would gt a lot better for the sake of it's two leads.

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Karyn

This sounds like one of those things that I really wish I had been there for while also being very thankful I was not there. I imagine "can cut the tension with a knife" is not an atmosphere you want to have at a press event.

Ace

Wow. That sounds almost so awkward enough to be a TV show itself.

Paul F

More articles should start in media res, but I think eventually the technique would get overused and just feel lazy.

That panel sounds incredibly awkward.

pamelajaye I did notice and enjoy the (en?) media res.
as long as we don't get any like that Luke ep of ER where the thing was in reverse - that was unwatchable. (whereas I had less trouble with the reverse ep of 30something.)

J "...he technique would get overused and just feel lazy."

I groaned when I saw it at the top because the device has been pummeled to death on too many shows I watch. 'Castle,' 'Breaking Bad,' get yourself some better beginnings so you can leave your middles where they belong.

LJA

Where's Burley the Koala when you need him most?

klg19

Geez, MPK: defensive much?

DB Cooper 1. I'm comfortable with critics "deciding" that racist humor isn't acceptable.
2. It was an interview panel. King went up there to take questions. This wasn't unsolicited feedback.
3. If he wants to defend racist humor, he's entitled to do it - or say, "The fans love it. Screw off."

To be fair, that's kind of what critics do.

And to me, as someone who occasionally watches the show, I don't care from an offensive standpoint, just from a "it's not funny or entertaining" standpoint.

RobB

I watched it for the first (and last) time this week. The laughs were far too few and the cringe-worthy moments far too many.

keith

How common is this, for showrunners to be out of touch with critics (and presumably the audience)?

Roy van der Meij Cough Veena Sud Cough

pamelajaye >I was being polite. Off topic because I haven't seen 2 Broke Girls but I've noticed Sepinwall's opinions being odd a lot lately.

Is it something in the water? Yesterday my brother got into a fight with Ken Jennings...

DB Cooper

Were I this Irish reporter, I think I'd have cracked him one in the mouth.

Being, of course, a quick-to-violence Irishman.

DougMac

Ausiello tweeted how awkward it was too

Josh

Wow - that Irish comment seems incredibly out-of-place and hateful - and out of nowhere. I'm surprised more people aren't up in arms about that.

Rory I would assume it is a two stage joke that requires two stereotypes. Stage 1: All Irish are Catholics.
Stage 2: All Catholics (specifically Irish Catholics & descendents) are sexually repressed.

At least, that's a fairly common joke in the UK

Eric827 It doesn't make sense for King to say, "You're offended by the show, so you must have a small penis!"

I agree with those who say that his "joke" was that the guy must be a sexually repressed Catholic.

Garrett

By "2 Broke Girls" I'm pretty sure they mean this show is creatively bankrupt. VAGINA laughtrack

Masha

Can we start a scale for showrunners? Michael Patrick King is 1 and Mike Schur is 10. Rate all the other showrunners!

ajl Mike Schur = 10, I agree (thinks very carefully about characters and story arcs, and very humble and gracious)
Steve Levitan = 4 (declining show quality-wise; smug, smug, smug)
Dan Harmon = 7 (cares so deeply about show, which I find admirable, but is childish, hot-headed, and pretentious.

Action_Kate John Rogers: 10
Ron Moore: 10
David Shore: 3

LJA AMG - I think I had it backwards. I looked it up, and it looks like Star created the show and King replaced him.

Chestnut

C'mon guys, grow up! it's just a tv show

Ricardo

Wow. Just wow.

I have to ask you something Alan: Is the way that King behaved on this panel going to subconsciously influence the affection you have for his show?

eakawie

What's the opposite of "adorkable?"

Joanna

Holy shit.

gregel

Anyone who has ever interviewed Patrick King about his Sex and the City movies (I was a big fan of the first one) knows there is no humble there. Nothing is "wrong." He'll stand by the second one till he dies. I'm actually not surprised by his behavior from this report.

odessasteps 'Can something be both offensive and funny, and if so, can something be both racist and funny?'

Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, George Carlin would have all said yes.

J Andy, I really wish you hadn't used that example.

http://newspaperrock.bluecorncomics.com/search/label/Parks%20and%20Recreation

Lauding P&R's handling of Native Americans is the rough equivalent of praising Community's treatment of religion.

Ray "'Can something be both offensive and funny, and if so, can something be both racist and funny?'

Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, George Carlin would have all said yes."

So Eddie Murphy is dead? That explains a lot about his recent career.

steve_weintraub

The panel didn't know what a "facial" is? Please. Facials were INVENTED in Hollywood (by way of the San Fernando Valley).

scrivener

This article takes a very mediocre TV sitcom, a stye on the CBS eye, much too seriously. The real question is why network executives tolerate such low-hanging rotten fruit.

eddieisannoy

Thankfully we have these Knights of the Keyboard that can protect us from political incorrectness. At least they found another punching bag aside from Ryan Murphy so they can insert their little zings in every review

DB Cooper /finds site/
/reads article/
/logs in/
/enters Captcha/
/comments about how big a time-waster the site is/
/leaves satisfied/

Beth

I cant wait to hear the Firewall & Iceberg podcast when you guys cover this one! Oh boy!

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