Is the DC Comics reboot for real or another half-measure?
More than 25 years after the Crisis, will the DC Universe really get to start over?
"Crisis on Infinite Earths" gave DC a chance to start its stories from scratch, but the company didn't take full advantage of it.
I know that 99% of what I write about is TV-related, but every now and then other elements of my nerditry have to take over the blog for a bit. Today's announcement that DC Comics is going to reboot its entire line of superhero titles to #1 issues, with younger versions of the characters and many revamped costumes designed by Jim Lee, is one of those times.
We know very little at this point, save a few quotes from Lee, Geoff Johns (who will be writing a new Justice League title drawn by Lee) and publisher Dan DiDio in a USA Today story. It's unclear at this point if this is just a numerical reboot - an easy way to draw in potential new readers scared off by seeing that, say, Action Comics has now passed the 900-issue mark - or if this is a serious reboot of the DC Universe continuity, in which every title and character is starting over from scratch.
As a longtime DC fan (albeit one whose only mainstream DC title these days is "Secret Six"), I think I'd actually be happier with the latter idea.
One of the seminal events of my comic book-reading childhood was 1985's "Crisis on Infinite Earths" miniseries by Marv Wolfman and George Perez. It was designed to at once celebrate 50 years worth of DC Comics stories and streamline the company's comic book universe to make core characters like Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman more accessible to a new generation who were baffled by Earth-2, Earth-X, multiple Green Lanterns, etc.
It was a fine idea - much as I loved the multiverse and the ancient continuity, it was too damn complicated for its own good - but DC ultimately half-assed it and made things a bigger mess than ever. Just to pick the three flagship heroes - as opposed to less prominent characters and teams like Hawkman and the Legion of Superheroes, who had to be rebooted every three weeks or so to keep up with the continuity quicksand they'd become mired in - we got three very different approaches to post-"Crisis" life. Superman got a revised origin story courtesy of John Byrne, but Byrne was then told he couldn't start telling stories about Superman as a rookie hero, and his titles all dealt with a young but not new Superman. Wonder Woman, meanwhile, got rebooted by George Perez - only he was allowed to tell her story from the beginning, with his rookie Wonder Woman somehow inserted into current continuity. And Batman wasn't rebooted at all. So at the same time, you had concurrent, frequently intersecting stories in which Superman had only been in the job for a year or two, Wonder Woman was brand new and Batman had been patrolling Gotham long enough to have gone through two different Robins.
It made little sense in the mid-80s, and made progressively less sense in the years since, even after DC tried again and again (with miniseries like "Zero Hour" and "Infinite Crisis") to make incremental fixes to a plan that should have been a wholesale makeover to begin with. There were too many old stories piled on top of other old stories piled on top of complicated changes, when the best thing for all involved would have been a clean break from the old. (Fans of the original continuity would still have those stories in existence, and perhaps DC could have introduced some niche line for the hardcore fanboys telling stories about the Superman of Earth-1 teaming up with the Luthor of Earth-3, while leaving the mainstream titles open to new ideas.)
If Johns, DiDio, Lee and company were to finally try this now - to make these new #1 issues mean actual starting-over points for the characters - it would make sense. The recent wave of comic book movies should in theory build a new generation of comic book readers, but the problem is always about what titles they could actually read and make sense of - and that would be similar to the movie versions - if they went into a comic shop. (Or, these days, if they wanted to download a title to their iPad.) But what little we know suggests it's another half-measure.
DiDio told USA Today that, "This was a chance to start, not at the beginning, but at a point where our characters are younger and the stories are being told for today's audience." Meanwhile, DC's senior vice president for sales, Bob Wayne, sent a letter to comics retailers today that included this passage:
"We have taken great care in maintaining continuity where most important, but fans will see a new approach to our storytelling. Some of the characters will have new origins, while others will undergo minor changes. Our characters are always being updated; however, this is the first time all of our characters will be presented in a new way all at once."
Johns is smart, and one of the best mainstream superhero writers going. Maybe there's a real, sweeping plan in place to have this all make sense. Maybe "continuity where most important" just means the big details like Batman's parents getting murdered, Abin Sur giving Hal Jordan his Green Lantern ring, etc.
But if there's not a consistent plan - if, a year from now, the original roster of the Justice League has to be rewritten again, or if Grant Morrison decides that he really wants to put Damien Wayne back into the new continuity, or whatever - then it's just a marketing move, and not the long-term creative patch DC could use as it moves further away from its 75th anniversary.
But that's just me. What do the rest of you fanboys and fangirls think? Do you want DC to really start over from scratch or would you prefer that all that messy, convoluted but incredibly fun history remain part of every character and title?
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Next 96 CommentsDweeze
May 31, 2011 at 7:00PM EST Reply to CommentEven were I so inclined, I can't swing 52 new titles in one month on top of my Marvel purchases. So I'll be using this as a jumping off point for the DC books I do buy.
Tom Galloway Someone posted that they checked a recent month of DC solicitations, and 52 titles is actually a few titles fewer than that month's number of DC Universe titles.
June 1, 2011 at 1:17AM ESTcitizenmilton
May 31, 2011 at 7:07PM EST Reply to CommentGiven the stakes, I'm hoping it's much clearer to the vision you advocate. DC's sales have been declining, and, the content is becoming increasingly mired in nostalgia. I can't fathom how new readers could genuinely get started on new content from their major brand-name characters.
They know the problems well. I hope they have the courage to go through with what needs doing.
And I also hope they restore John Stewart as the most prominentGreen Lantern. When they demoted him, it was an unforced error on the diversity front.
Matt C. John Stewart was NEVER the most prominent Green Lantern.
May 31, 2011 at 7:10PM ESTMaking him so was a politically correct and WRONG decision by the DCAU guys.
HAL JORDAN is the one, true Green Lantern of Sector 2814.
Now, I don't want John gone, but making him the token black guy is insulting to the meaning of honest diversity.
Tausif Khan As a person who was introduced to comics through television cartoons John Stewart was the most prominent visible Green Lantern for me.
June 1, 2011 at 3:56AM ESTEmmyLoser
May 31, 2011 at 7:07PM EST Reply to CommentI have to say, as a longtime Marvel fan who has been daunted by the idea of getting into DC's lengthy continuity, I am already drawn in by this measure, no matter which way it goes. But, one thing that really irks me about comic book publishers is when they announce a great new "jumping on point" for a certain book or character who's previous history continues to be extremely impactful of their present. I'm not saying they should erase all history and just keep starting with a blank slate. Just don't be misleading about what's going on.
I like your suggestion to do a full reboot and keep a niche line of books where old continuity continues to exist. That way, in seven years, when writers have ruined this new continuity by doing lame-ass versions of classic stories, they can expand the old-school continuity and do another relaunch (if necessary). It's like a reboot with a net.
jweezy
May 31, 2011 at 7:07PM EST Reply to CommentI love DC, especially Batman and all related titles so I would actually miss the new Batgirl, Red Robin and Damien. I'm actually enjoying Dick Grayson as Batman more than Bruce right now so I'm a little concerned.
Kristopher exactly what i was thinking. i started buying dc with a vengeance two years ago, basically at the beginning of batman + robin, red robin, batgirl
June 3, 2011 at 6:39PM ESTi've also enjoyed the mon-el storyline. i hope they have a place in the new universe, but it looks like that isn't possible.
Matt C.
May 31, 2011 at 7:08PM EST Reply to CommentWait, does this mean Dick Grayson, who's become an outstanding hero on his own account as Nightwing and then as Batman, is now a teenage Robin again?
What does that do to Tim Drake, who like Grayson, became an important hero in his own right as Robin and now as Red Robin?
I like the idea of scaling things back (God knows X-Men could REALLY use an honest-to-God reintroduction) and getting rid of Superman's terrible red underwear, but if they're wiping out great characters like Tim Drake or Kyle Raynor for the sake of "starting over" then no, I am NOT on point.
And if it IS like that... then what the hell have I been reading and enjoying in Green Lantern (DC's best-selling & best-written book for 5 years now!)?
Does this mean the Emotional Spectrum is gone? Does this mean Hal never became Parallax and died? Is Kyle, John, & Guy gone? Is Tomar-Re back and Tomar-Tu just a glint in his eye? Did the outstanding Blacking Night and Sinestro Corps Wars never happen?
Because if THAT is the case... I don't even want to think about it if that is the case.
Aaliyah If they put Dick back to Robin again... heads WILL roll.
May 31, 2011 at 8:32PM ESTGrifter X-Men actually had a nice "reintroduction" of sorts, via Morrison's New X-Men, which after he left, Marvel editors didn't have the courage (or just lacked his capacity to think bigger and bolder) to follow through and went back to the old status-quo.
May 31, 2011 at 10:58PM ESTAs for DC, I just read that what's been somewhat half-confirmed half-rumoured is that they Supes & Lane are no more in the reboot. It's Supes and Wonder Woman time!
Now I really don't care about this, since I only read Batman and Vertigo titles...but oooh the drama that will bring if it happens. I remember the drama from "One More Day" over Peter Parker and Mary Jane and this will possibly be worse.
I have no idea if I can leave links here to other sites...if I can't well, I apologize and please remove them.
For more info, and a showcase of the characters redesigns check:
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/05/31/flashpost-the-hooking-up-of-superman-and-wonder-woman/
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/05/31/flashpost-full-jla-art-including-flash-batman-designs-hawkman-1-with-robinson-tan-birds-of-prey-1-without-gail-simone/
goodhorse This is the problem with an honest-to-goodness reboot - the investment long time loyal fans have with existing stories/characters.
June 1, 2011 at 1:24AM ESTI especially feel for followers of Grant Morrison's Batman - it's generally been a great take on the character and it would be a pity to lose it. But for the overall good of stripping DC universe back to its basics it might be worth it.
As Alan says, it has to be all or nothing if it's to be regarded as anything more than an exercise in commercial cynicism. Readers are pretty jaded about these earth-shattering events that amount to nothing.
By the way: thanks Grifter for the new costume links - going there now...
May 31, 2011 at 7:08PM EST Reply to CommentI don't think rebooting from scratch is a good idea - continuity, nutty as it sometimes gets, is one of the best aspects of comic book universes.
While I'm excited to see some of the changes, I think this is destined to screw things up the same way the first Crisis Did.
w vanyar I have to agree that a reboot does not always make the back story of the comic better. I'm a long time Legion of Superheroes fan. So, I've lived through so many reboots it is not funny.
September 14, 2011 at 1:42PM ESTTalk about about rebooting to clean up the stories as a good jumping on point is nuts. Just look at the Green Lantern titles (they kept all of the multi-lenterns). Then you've got Superman in the past from the JLA story acting more like Superman of old but the Superman in Action is acting like Batman from year one story line.
I don't think they are going to get very many "jumping on" as the stories I've looked at did not really explain the character it was all fighting and we have a problem to fix stuff.
As for the electronic release of the comics the people I know that own iPads don't read comics, so I really don't see the draw there.
Same for the movie reference as the DC hero related movies have not done as well as Marvel so, you are not going to draw in people to DC by the Marvel movies. Lets look at this past summer:
DC - Green Lantern
Marvel -X-men First Class, Thor, Captain America
So, which company is more likely to get new fans, right Marvel (especially since the Green Lantern from the movie did not act like the Green Lantern from the comic book, only had the same name).
So, I'm taking a wait and see but I fear I will not be continuing some of my titles that I was picking up.
mark
May 31, 2011 at 7:09PM EST Reply to CommentI think its a perfect jumping off point for people who had only been inertial buyers.
For me, the dcu has become such an unreadable morass of hyperviolence (for the most part), my regulat buying went from 10-15 dcu books a month to zero.
I respectfully disagree with alan about johns. His sheperding of the dcu has, for me, been one turn off after another.
I think this move will lose them many more readers than the mythical new fan/casual reader that may start now.
w vanyar I have to agree with Mark. I've not been overly comfortable with some of the changes that were going on in the DCU before this new 52.
September 14, 2011 at 1:55PM ESTAs I've said before I'm a long time Legion fan and I've lived through so many reboots it is not funny (about 50% of those reboots were a disaster). I don't see this as being any better. I have two teenagers. One is already very into comics one is only sort of into comics. One could care less about the reboot. The other is "what!" about the reboot. According to their friends the reboot is not going to generate any new interest in comic books (if any thing it appears to have had the opposite affect, at least at their school).
Having an issue #1 does not mean someone will pick it up. People start reading a comic for the story line and art, NOT the back story which is built up over time.
I think DC also has a false believe these past few weeks that they have done the right thing. With the sell out of Justice League they think they are right in the reboot, but 75% of the people I know got Justice League to see just how much change has occurred as with Justice League you see all of the DCU main characters in one shot. When I still see on the shelf Swamp Thing, Hawk & Dove, Static Shock, Stormwatch, Batwing ... but Action and Justice League are gone you know which books will survive the reboot and which ones are already destine to fail. Which does not speak well for the market share for DC.
theholyavenger
May 31, 2011 at 7:12PM EST Reply to CommentNo more Half-measures DC
7s Tim ha
May 31, 2011 at 7:17PM ESTklg19
May 31, 2011 at 7:12PM EST Reply to CommentHmmm. I grew up reading indie stuff, not superhero comics, and I've never really started on the mainstream stuff because of the very confusion and complexity you mention.
If they were to really start over, but still tip the hat somehow to the classic continuity, that would bring me in, and I suspect a lot of other people as well. But they can't write the stuff simply as adjuncts, or marketing tools, to the movies. The comics should still be respected as the source material.
Bob
May 31, 2011 at 7:13PM EST Reply to CommentI never read comics growing up, but in college wanted to get into them (largely because of Batman and Spider-Man movies, but also because I was a fan of Batman and Spider-Man animated shows when I was younger). I had no idea where to start. I didn't want to pick up some random issue of a character and didn't want to get bogged down in some continuity.
I ended up going after things that appeared to stand-alone or were easily accessible. Batman: Year One, The Dark Knight Returns, Superman For All Seasons, Kingdom Come, The Ultimates 1+2, Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory, and Watchmen.
If this is actually a true reboot of the continuity, I'd strongly consider starting with the new issue one of Batman and actually following it (Batman has always been my favorite). There's no way I'm spending the time or money if this isn't a true reboot though.
I guess I think that a true reboot would be a much better way of attracting new readership.
Jason Potapoff
May 31, 2011 at 10:27PM ESTThis excuse (new readers don't know where to jump in and are scared to just start reading due to not knowing the continuity and back story) is trotted out every few years to explain why readership isn't growing. Then the company goes and do some reboots to try and attract these new readers and find out that 1) that more people actually like the back story and continuity and are turned off when they become invested in the continuity only to have it changed on them every couple of years, 2) the people who are too scared to just jump in the middle rarely actually find out about the reboot made to draw them in and actually buy those comics, 3) if these new readers do actually mange to find this reboot made for them and try it they get bored with it after a few months since they really aren't that interested in the genre in the first place, 4) or say "hey this isn't the I know from the movies/tv/cartoons and are turned off because it's too different from what they know anyways or 5) say gee these comics are so shallow they haven't changed since the 40s.
The whole idea that people can't get into current comics because they don't know the back story is silly. First off this day and age any smart reader can just go and read up on the back story and learn what they need to know from the company's website or wikipedia. Secondly the strength of comic books is the month to month continuity, that's what keeps people reading the books over the long term. Sure some people might avoid initially picking comics up out of fear but most of those people won't ever buy more than a handful of comics over the course of a year anyways. Thirdly when you do a serious reboot in order to wipe out continuity and draw in new readers within 2 years or so you are back in the same boat and people say "hey the back story is too convoluted for new readers to read we better reboot" (see Marvel's Ultimate line, Marvel Knights, Marvel's Max, etc.). Fourth most comics end up being essentially rebooted every time a new writing team takes over as only use whatever continuity they like and throw out/ignore/contradict continuity they don't like anyways. So the idea that people need to know decades of back story to understand what's happening is a falsity when 9 times out of 10 a title doesn't actually use the continuity from the past year never mind the past decade.
DC will never to a true reboot correctly, they will always hedge their bets in an effort to not piss off their hardcore fans and end up just wasting everyone's time. DC knows full well that the bulk of their sales come from their hardcore fans and will lose more readers than they gain if they completely reboot everything. So they pretend to do a reboot to add some excitement, draw a few new readers (most of whom will leave after 3 months) and but keep everything mostly the same to appease their long term fans.
wvanyar I have to agree with Jason about the reboots (I'm a long time Legion fan). I jump into a comic because of the story, and art. I learn the continuity the longer I read the story and stick with it. I've dropped and restarted Teen Titans, Justice League, X-Men based on their story lines and art.
September 14, 2011 at 2:07PM ESTAnd Jason is very right that when a new writing team is formed very often they want to take the characters into their direction which causes all of the continuity issues. So, in about three years DC will again have continuity issues. Especially since Superman is appearing in multiple titles but at different stages of his life (Action vs Justice League) talk about confusing continuity DC has started out of the blocks already confusing readers.
As for Jason's last paragraph on DC really has rebooted Superman (Batman appears the least changed again). I don't know how some of the long time fans are going to react to this new superman that terrorizes rich criminals into confessing (Action #1).
7s Tim
May 31, 2011 at 7:15PM EST Reply to CommentI hope this doesn't screw up Morrison's Batman stories. He had just started the second portion of long form story arcs, and he was probably the best suited to figure something interesting to do with Batman, Inc, so this restructuring could really put a kink in that. When Marvel screwed with his New X-Men run by retconning half of it away, he found solace with DC. Might this (if it goes bad, which I grant is a huge supposition here,since he has been a creative force of many of the last several company wide story lines) drive him to Archie?
Peter C grant morrison on archie comic = gold. great idea.
June 1, 2011 at 9:06AM EST
May 31, 2011 at 7:17PM EST Reply to CommentI'm an amateur reviewer of weekly comics, so I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, there's no question that DC has botched things over and over, but the people in charge now share a lot of that blame so I'm doubtful of there ability to fix things. While JLA, Superman, and Wonder Woman need massive help, GL is going fine and Detective Comics with Dick as Batman is the best comic out there (even better than Secret Six). I'm a little concerned about a baby with the bathwater scenario.
Mirri Maz
May 31, 2011 at 7:18PM EST Reply to Commenti'm more of a Marvel fan personally and i have fallen behind lately but isn't launching 50 new titles in one month a bit of an overkill, certain less successful books will probably get lost in the shuffle.
Also it makes me uncomfortable to see the whole legacy wiped out just like that, all the years of building characters (and messing them up) disregarded for a gimmick that is mainly there to inflate sales for a month or two. i believe eventually most of them will revert back, it's like Ultimate Marvel which enjoyed a couple of years of success before starting to become too similar to regular Marvel and finally they practically cancelled most of the line.
At the same time you really can't blame them, sales are going down and if that's what's needed to help the industry then why not.
May 31, 2011 at 7:18PM EST Reply to CommentSecret Six is the only ongoing DCU book I'm reading too. (I'm also reading the Snyder/Jock/Francavilla Detective Comics run, but that ends in August.)
Honestly, I'm skeptical. I have little history with DC comics, so I've no attachment to the characters. But if they put good writers on them, I'll certainly try.
Of course, with 50+ new books launching, there'll probably be a load of good ones lost in the mix.
Micah
May 31, 2011 at 7:19PM EST Reply to CommentSo long as they let Grant Morrison keep doing his thing with Batman Inc. and whatever other madness he has planned, I'm cool with this. In fact, its about time DC cleaned up their continuity. I might start buying something other than Xombi and a couple of batbooks.
May 31, 2011 at 7:21PM EST Reply to Commentas a long time fan i am very excited for this. It will be very interesting to see what the keep, like batman inc and sue dibny rape. but its great and very smart by dc to be doing this All 1's and DIGITAL DAY AND DATE distro is a VERY awesome idea. I am rooting for them
briguyx
May 31, 2011 at 7:25PM EST Reply to CommentSupposedly Grant Morrison has been writing a mini-series concerning the different 52 worlds of the multiverse. I'm wondering if this series is part of the DC plan or if it will fall by the wayside.
rhys1882
May 31, 2011 at 7:28PM EST Reply to CommentMost likely part of the reason for this move is to modernize the DC line-up so as to make the characters more palatable for possible movies and TV shows. One of the biggest problems with Superman and Wonder Woman is that their outfits look ridiculous. Fans of the characters remain attached to those costumes purely because of their misguided nostalgia. However, they really stand in the way of developing any sort of mainstream appeal in future TVs or movies. I think one of the main reasons the Wonder Woman show didn't go forward is because the outfit looks so ridiculous.
John Yeah, but it was based on the NEW outfit.
May 31, 2011 at 7:46PM ESTJason Potapoff Every 5 or 6 years people say the DC's big iconic character need to be revamped and their costumes changed for the modern era and say that the only reaosn why people like their costumes is out of nostalga. And sometimes DC is stupid enough to actually do it and surprise, surprise there is a bigger backlash against the change and they actually lose sales instead of gain them. People think they want Superman to be in a new costume or revamped but every single time they do so it becomes clear that people only think they want that and the change is smartly undone quickly. Superman is an Icon of comic books you just can't change his costume no matter how often misguided people think it needs to be done. The people who jump on board for these changes never stay longer than a couple of months and the hardcore fans get ticked off and leave. They already AHVE changed Wonder Woman's costume, that was done at the start of this year. I don't think it has gone over well at all and hasn't helped sales of the comic (and it's funny as the previous run on her title had managed to boost her title's sales big time while keeping the original costume intact). And has John pointed out the Wonder Woman TV pilot used a a costume based off of the new modern look instead of her classic look and THAT was the biggest complaint against it (the horrible other changes to the character making her more like Ally McBeal than Wonder Woman was the next biggest complaint but less people actually knew about that).
May 31, 2011 at 10:04PM ESTJason
May 31, 2011 at 7:29PM EST Reply to CommentBig fan of your TV stuff thanks to learning who you were due to Bill Simmons, and I'm also a comic fan, so it was cool to see this article. Also, I agree with everything you said.
Ben
May 31, 2011 at 7:31PM EST Reply to CommentI'm not okay with this, but not because I'm a junkie for the existing continuity. It's because this seems to me like another excuse for comics to go backwards, back to outdated characters from the old days that the editors grew up with.
DC's younger characters, the ones who haven't already had a billion stories told about them, are their most interesting ones. Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown, Jamie Reyes, these are people I want to read more about. And, as has been mentioned, the characters who have evolved and grown into their roles, like Dick Grayson. I have no interest in seeing everything revert back into the hands of a bunch of blond white guys, even if they make them younger and hipper blond white guys.
I'm only okay with this if they find a way to keep the great characters that they've developed over the years. If it's just more excuses bring back bland dudes like Ray Palmer in place of new, interesting characters, like they've slowly been doing for years, then congrats on coming up with a faster way to get there, but I'm out.
mightysamurai Exactly how many "blond white guy" superheroes can you actually name? Batman? Nope. Superman? Nope. Green Lantern? Nope, even Guy Gardner is a redhead (well, orange head, but whatever).
June 1, 2011 at 12:15PM ESTSo why the crack about "blond white guys"? Unless you have a problem with certain races, genders, and hair colors, I don't see the point of that complaint.
7s Tim aquaman, hank pym, hawkeye, green arrow (bonus points for goatee), captain america, iceman, I think xavier was blonde as a kid right?...
June 1, 2011 at 4:05PM ESTJason Potapoff I believe Xavier was a red head (Juggernaut, his half brother is a redhead) although if you go by his eyebrows he's brunette.
June 4, 2011 at 8:59PM ESTfjdkfsk
May 31, 2011 at 7:32PM EST Reply to Commentnow we know why alan likes chuck so much
NERD!
haha its cool dont worry.
johnnyrocket
May 31, 2011 at 7:35PM EST Reply to CommentWell, I'm mixed emotions but open to some real change and a streamlined vision for the line. I'm totally for a streamlining of the line; an iconic Justice League (which if you're counting Barry Allen FLASH and Hal Jordan Green Lantern, technically hasn't really been seen since the 70's.. I'm also OK with stripping down Superman a little and taking him back to the pre marriage days.. All that said, a total reboot might be over kill. Geoff Johns has spent A LOT of time already getting these characters back to their cores in the last few years.. Johns run on GL took that character and the mythos to places it's never been.. and took the whole line along for the ride. His last two 'events' just brought back the Flash, Aquaman, Firestorm and Martian Manhunter.. Not to mention Swamp Thing. He even 'fixed' Hawkman at one point. Perhaps also important, he already breathed a lot of fresh air in to Action Comics and Superman three years ago, and fixed everything that went wrong with the Legion and Brainiac over the last 25 years..(Until they broke that momentum for another 'event that fizzled.) All of which just says to me if he already put so much of the puzzle pieces back together in recent years, a re do from scratch may not be necessary. Seems not only a waste of his time, but a waste of our time.. And if they're going scrap it all again so Jim Lee's new costume designs (which everyone else at DC is apparently afraid to tell him really look like OLD, rejected 1990's X-Men costume designs) then they risk alienating as many fans as getting new ones. Tricky stuff.
Nathan
May 31, 2011 at 7:45PM EST Reply to CommentAt the end of the day it is why I follow the Marvel Universe. The DCU has more or less been in a constant state of flux since the Wolfman/Perez mini-series. Crisis, Final Crisis, Blackest Night, Brightest Day...so many reboots & game changers. With Marvel, outside of the occasional new number 1, you know what you are getting. With the exception of Heroes Reborn back in the 90s, hey there is Jim Lee again, the Marvel sandbox is still recognizable as the place that Stan, Jack, John, Steve & Larry created all those years ago. That creation is flexible enough to accommodate tweaking but the baseline is comfortable and as I mentioned, recognizable. The only DC proper title I'm reading now is Grant Morrison's Batman title and that is more because I don't really care who is a White Lantern, a Black Lantern or an Orange Lantern and because I recognize Batman. And you know, 900+ issues of something is a cause for celebration. It's an achievement that no other book on the stands can boast. It's special. It means something. No more. Now all it means is old. Eh. Maybe the comics have finally outgrown me.
Jason Potapoff Actually Marvel has rebooted their universe more than a few times. There was a point where they killed every team and character and had only a handful of heroes around (Fantastic Four, Hulk, and possibly the Avengers with the X-Men off in their own pocket world.) But that lasted only a couple of months before they gave up on it. People tend to forget about Marvel's reboots because 1) Marvel gives up on their reboots even faster than DC does, 2) often they reboot one or two characters at a time instead of their whole universe (Spider-Man and Daredevil has been rebooted 5 or 6 times since the 80s and who knows how many times X-Men have been rebooted) and 3) people give Marvel much more leeway than they give DC because they still see Marvel as the upstart outlaw, underdog comic company even though they long lost that status years ago, have outsold DC since the late 60s and are just corporate owned (by Disney) as DC is. And this isn't counting the numerous restarting of titles numbers with or without a true rebooting of the character (which they conveniently pretend didn't happen anytime one of their titles approach a milestone number like Amazing Spider-man hit 500).
May 31, 2011 at 9:55PM ESTNathan That was the Heroes Reborn fiasco which I mentioned. They also did the Age of Apocalypse for the X-Men side but that wasn't really a reboot as it was designed to always return to regular continuity. I'd also argue the Spider-Man & Daredevil points you raise. I don't really think Frank Miller's Daredevil Year One counts as a reboot the way we are discussing what the DCU is about to go through. I also don't feel like the Clone saga or One More Day has altered the Spider-Man franchise in a way that equates to the DC universe. The fact is outside of Heroes Reborn the MU has never seen the kind of wholesale changes that DC has pushed on their comic universe several times over. I would grant you that the constant new number ones Marvel does are bothersome but even those don't represent the wholesale changes DC have forced on their characters multiple times. The closest thing you can point to on the Marvel side are the Ultimate line of comics which are wholesale re-imagining of titles & characters but have not replaced the main lines but instead run parallel to them...unless of course we are talking about Marvel films which I do think use the Ultimate line as a template more than they should. Those Ultimate titles have been blown up and restarted a couple of times over in their 11 or 12 year history but it isn't the main line, so to me they don't really count as the same thing.
May 31, 2011 at 11:05PM ESTAnd yes, for 45+ year old guy I know way more about this stuff than I should.
7s Tim I wouldn't count anything Marvel has done as rebooting. The retcon the hell out of continuity, but they don't start over from scratch. Heroes Reborn was an experiment with some of their big name titles, but they didn't kill off all continuity. They removed the ones they were handing over to Lee and Liefeld, but everyone else kept on publishing. Hulk got horribly split in twain, Thunderbolt filled the void of the "dead" Avengers, X-men just kept on doing their thing. Do they remove troublesome bits of "history"? Yeah, all the time. And if Heroes Reborn had been more of a success creatively, they might have kept it around, and it might have snowballed into a line wide reboot. But I call foul on anyone trying to say what DC has done with Crisis in the past and what they are doing this September has been attempted at Marvel before. But I can't say which approach is better, really. Maybe they should just worry about putting out comics people wanna buy and not just what number is on the front of the book. Both companies.
June 1, 2011 at 4:15PM ESTNathan
May 31, 2011 at 7:53PM EST Reply to CommentOh and I guess I'm the only who thinks Geoff Johns is way too into Hal Jordan & Barry Allen. Jordan fit the period he was created in and Barry Allen was a more interesting character left dead. I would agree with the above comment about John Stewart being a better GL. All you have to do is watch the Justice League cartoons to realize what a kick-ass Lantern he is. Still, whatever. DC has already pushed me away, now they are just throwing dirt on the grave.
The more interesting piece of news in that press release is the same day release of their comics for digital purchase. That is the thing that has legs and the reason Marvel, up until this point, has been so quiet.
rAz1969
May 31, 2011 at 7:53PM EST Reply to CommentIt's as if the editors the past fifteen years have written themselves into a corner, thrown in the towel, and asked for a do-over. Corporate said yes but only if you make it multi-culti friendly. So throw out the core 35 yr old plus butter at spends $$$ weekly, go for the young nimble minds unencumbered with fifty long boxes of memories, and make an ultimate version of the entire dc universe while chucking their 616. Only way this decision isn't a total failure is if they hide a MaGuffin of an ending that isn't insulting to either long time or new readers. But it is a bold choice.
My questions - how long is dick Greyson 8? Till the teen titans start? Till Barbara Gordon is shot by joker? Till Ted lord is killed? Think these milestones, Among others, aren't inevitable? How long till a daring editor wants to race ahead to a milestone prematurely?
I will be impressed if this new universe, however, sticks with Thomas Wayne and leaves son Bruce in his five foot long coffin. Maybe daddy Tommy will be a better batman than his son longterm?
John
May 31, 2011 at 7:56PM EST Reply to CommentMy biggest fear is they are going to screw up the Batman titles. At this point, one of the biggest assets the Bat-books have is the history. It would be a mistake to take Dick Grayson back to being Robin and retcon Jason, Tim, and Damien out of existence. However, without the continuity those characters don't make sense. And what about Batman Inc? Somehow Bruce Wayne as a "young hero for the 21st century" doesn't seem as suited to be a mentor to a worldwide network of heroes.
And that doesn't even get into some of the recent titles I like like centering on a new generation of young heroes, like the current Teen Titans and the current Supergirl (which they finally fixed after killing her off somewhere in the Crisis mess.)
Ariana Oh god, I dread to think what would happen if Dick was Robin again. Jason, Tim, Steph and Damian are great characters. They can't push them out of existence! I hope they are still there.
May 31, 2011 at 8:44PM ESTRachel
May 31, 2011 at 8:27PM EST Reply to CommentAs someone who loves comic book movies but has never actually read a comic book, I like the idea of a fresh start. I've always been intrigued by comic books, but scared off by the fact that if I picked one up today I would have absolutely no idea what was going on. At the same time though, I may still never actually buy one, so DC would probably be smart to not completely alienate the fans they already have in an attempt to attract people like me.
Nathan Except your fear isn't really true. There is an axiom in comics which is that every issue is someone's first. If a comic book writer or editor doesn't get a newcomer up to speed on the status quo of the book & the characters quickly then they are not doing their jobs very well. Will you gain more context if you start digging into previous arcs and perhaps gain a deeper understanding of characters & relationships? Of course but the same thing can be said of TV shows and novels that feature recurring characters. Don't let history put you off.
May 31, 2011 at 8:34PM ESTmark as a kid reading pre-crisis DC comics, I never had a problem keeping 40 years of continuity straight. That standard panel with the multiple earths was always good enough during hte JLA/JSA team-ups.
May 31, 2011 at 9:26PM ESTJoseph Yeah, I don't buy the theory that it's the decades of continuity that prevents new readers from jumping on board. I first started reading in the late 70s, at which point the Marvel heroes had been around for 10+ years and the DC heroes even longer. Picking up a comic book for the first time isn't the same as starting a novel at the midpoint; anyone with a brain would be able to pick up a comic at any point and figure out what was happening and whether or not they wanted to read more. Plus, thanks to the various films/TV shows, there are millions of people who are already familiar with the basics of everyone from Blade to Thor.
June 1, 2011 at 1:01PM ESTTo me, the most significant part of DC's announcement is the "day and date" digital release of their entire line. If they can promote and price that part right I think they may have a chance to actually get more people (maybe even kids!) to pick up the habit.
Ariana
May 31, 2011 at 8:34PM EST Reply to CommentHonestly, I'm not looking forward to it :/
I love the DCU just as it is. I hate change! I'm interested to see what they do, though.
I heard something about them changing Barbara Gordon, so she's not crippled any more. If she never got shot, she wouldn't have had a reason to retire as Batgirl... and therefore become the Oracle. and we all know the Oracle is a big art of the DCU.
Plus, what's going on with Damian? He's like, the best character. They better not do anything to him.
Jason Potapoff If they have Barbara Gordon back as Batgirl (and intend to keep her as Batgirl for a while) they will probably have Chloe Sullivan be Oracle.
June 4, 2011 at 11:50PM ESTHobart
May 31, 2011 at 8:43PM EST Reply to CommentIt shouldn't matter. Detailed continuity is irrelevant to these characters because they are incapable of undergoing lasting change. The best Superman story of the last 20 years was the history influenced but continuity light All-Star Superman. I would argue the same about The Long Halloween. There is no longer (and I would argue should no longer be) a definitive continuity, there should only be a consistency of character. Each story creates and calls on the continuity it needs to work.
Hobart As an addendum, from a business standpoint DC will never allow a line wide reboot to last for long for fear of losing a large segment of the already dwindling periodical market. But it could be interesting while it lasts (though there's no chance anything drawn by Lee is getting released on a consistent basis).
May 31, 2011 at 8:46PM ESTNathan I'd be curious to know how far ahead Jim Lee has been working. The other thing with Jeff Johns is I'm not really sold on him as a writer of team books. His JSA run started out strong but really went off the rails there by the end and his run on Avengers was, oh how shall I put it, horrible.
May 31, 2011 at 9:01PM ESTJason Potapoff The problem is Jim Lee thinks he knows how to design new costumes but he really doesn't. People like his art when he does the established costumes and perhaps tweaks them a touch. But his sense of original character design is poor and in the end few people actualyl like what he comes up with. And there's the whole incapable of working fast problem as well. Pining your entire company on Jim Lee is a big mistake. He's good in small doses but he is just not capable of carrying an entire company. I can't believe DC keeps thinking that he is... But I guess they felt they had to give him something big to do to keep him around now his DC Universe stint failed and is looking for another big project to do.
May 31, 2011 at 10:33PM ESTGrifter Jason Potapoff...here are the redesigns.
May 31, 2011 at 11:06PM ESThttp://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads//2011/05/fulljla.jpg
Frankly, I see nothing that hideous. In fact I see a thing most welcomed for any superhero, a lack of underwear over pants...in this case, Superman no longer has it.
About bloody time.
mightysamurai Grifter...Sez you. The classics are classic for a reason.
June 1, 2011 at 12:28PM ESTBatman's new costume is passable because it's all dark colors so the changes are barely noticeable (which makes the changes kinda pointless, but whatever). Green Lantern's, Aquaman's, Cyborg's, and Flash's costumes are also passable because, in the grand scheme of things, they're basically identical to the originals. The few changes that have been made are also practically unnoticeable, basically amounting to a little extra detailing (again, completely pointless). And they will be instantly unmade once a new artist comes along and decides he doesn't want to do all that extra detailing.
Wonder Woman and Superman's costumes won't last. Even if they learn to live with the pants, WW fans won't take the change to her traditional red-blue-gold color scheme or the missing stars lying down. As for Superman, they've tried changing his costume before. It's never worked and it's never stuck. Which makes this particular change, what kids? That's right, entirely pointless.
So in the end we have pointless x 7 = pointless.
chad9976
May 31, 2011 at 9:30PM EST Reply to CommentSTART OVER FROM SCRATCH!!!
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