Listen: Firewall & Iceberg Podcast No. 79
Dan and Alan discuss the 'Killing' and 'Game of Thrones' finales
Happy Monday, Boys & Girls. It's time for a slightly delayed installment of The Firewall & Iceberg Podcast.
It may not seem like the episode is that late until you realize that Sepinwall and I sat down to record at maybe 10 a.m. Pacific. Roughly 45 Skype crashes later -- to say nothing of a few tangential and non-tangential interruptions, we ended up with a podcast that was a bear to edit and which somehow ended up being nearly roughly 86 minutes.
And we'd already planned on doing two podcasts this week for fear that we might go on forever.
This podcast is just "Twin Peaks," the finals for "Game of Thrones" and "The Killing" and a review of ABC's "Combat Hospital."
Geez.
Here's the breakdown...
ABC's "Combat Hospital" -- 02:00 - 10:10
"Twin Peaks" -- 10:15 - 33:10
The "Game of Thrones" finale -- 33:15 - 53:30
The "Killing" finale -- 53:30 - 01:25:00
As always, you can subscribe to The Firewall & Iceberg Podcast over at the iTunes Store, where you can also rate us and comment on us. [Or you can always follow our RSS Feed.]
And here's the podcast...
A long-time member of the TCA Board and a longer-time blogger of "American Idol," Dan Fienberg writes about TV, except for when he writes about movies or sometimes writes about the Red Sox. But never music. He would sound stupid talking about music.
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June 20, 2011 at 5:50PM EST Reply to CommentAnd one more thing about The Killing. I actually said I would laugh if they did what they did and they did it and I was still physically moved with anger. This show is so dead to me. Dead!
Brian
June 20, 2011 at 5:59PM EST Reply to CommentOut of curiousity, are the majority of people angry at The Killing's last epiosode more annoyed at the non-reveal of the killer or the quality of the episode?
dan Brian - That's one of the things Alan and I talk about in the podcast. He's pissed of for both reasons. I'm pissed off for the latter reason, but I kinda try to defend the show against people only annoyed by the former... That's why it required 32 minutes...
June 20, 2011 at 6:13PM EST-Daniel
Murph
June 20, 2011 at 6:31PM EST Reply to CommentI'd suffer through one season of The Killing for 10+ brilliant seasons of Mad Men and Breaking Bad any day of the week. So as much as The Killing sucked, AMC gets a pardon for airing those two shows. I even enjoy The Walking Dead quite a bit. It's not great, but it is entertaining.
Also, put your iPhones on silent. It confuses me.
sepinwall It wasn't the iPhone. That was my computer, unfortunately. We had had so many technical delays and were running so far behind schedule that I had to start reformatting the various segments as we talked if we were going to actually get the podcast finished and posted before I had to go out for a while. And unfortunately, the program I use to do that has a chime that sounds like the iPhone's default "you have a text" alert sound, which I couldn't turn off.
June 21, 2011 at 6:43AM ESTSorry for the distraction, but if I hadn't done it, we might not have posted the podcast until close to midnight. Hopefully that won't happen again. The number of Skype disconnections was kind of staggering this week.
iscreen I thought Alan was receiving "I Know What you did" emails from Sarah Linden.
June 21, 2011 at 10:47PM ESTJonathan
June 20, 2011 at 7:09PM EST Reply to CommentLong podcasts are better, never apologize for them! It just means I can work out that much longer.
LJA
June 20, 2011 at 7:20PM EST Reply to CommentI didn't read the books, and I felt very emotionally connected to Dany and Drogo, most of the Starks, Tyrion, and the friendship between Jon Snow and Sam. I got really choked up when Greyjoy asked "am I your brother" and swore his fealty to Robb.
As for where Game of Thrones lands in the grand scheme of things, can we at least agree on this? It easily becomes the HBO flagship original series Sopranos/Wire successor, usurping any claim Boardwalk Empire thinks it made for that position. I was deeply invested in Thrones by the end of episode one, whereas I never got there with BE.
Agree with Dan on the casting. In almost all cases, it was perfect.
Finally, as for how hateable Joffrey is, the entire internet agrees. You've seen this, right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYNeT2nzEgA
PotatoSolution As a big fan of the books, I find it extremely encouraging that someone who came to the story through the TV show connects with it so deeply. Awesome!
June 21, 2011 at 12:37PM ESTLike so many fans of the books, I was desperately hoping that HBO would not screw it up. Not only did they not fail, but Game of Thrones was better than I ever could have expected. That happens so, so rarely.
So thanks HBO, and congratulations on this major success. I'll even forgive you for airing yet another dreadful season of True Blood. ;-)
damaged amc reputation
June 20, 2011 at 7:45PM EST Reply to CommentIncidentally, two of the writers from Damages worked on this season of The Killing.
Yes, past work experience matters on TV.
Nick I don't appreciate using past experience writing for Damages as a way to explain why The Killing was so atrocious.
June 20, 2011 at 8:22PM ESTSay what you will about Damages - at least in its first season, it was damn good television. It made the misdirection fun. The twists were actually surprising. Unlike what Sud is saying about her show, Damages' two timelines colliding structure actually was formula breaking. There was also a brilliant ending that solved all mysteries AND provided intriguing setup for the next season. Oh, and there was Glenn Close.
The Killing flat out bored me in every way and added insult to injury by not even providing closure. That's about the worst thing you can say about a TV show. So please let's not drag Damages into this.
stacy I really liked the first season of Damages and I was very pleased with the way it's ending. It was one of the better "this might have to be a series finales" finales I've seen.
June 20, 2011 at 8:49PM ESTI guess I'm more with Dan about The Killing. The Killing is not a good show so I did not expect a good finale. The fact that we didn't find out who killed Rosie didn't annoying me, the fact that I don't care who killed Rosie is what annoys me.
Mirri Maz i'll add a vote to Damages, season 1 is one of my favorite TV seasons ever even if it was hard to follow in the beginig. The later seasons trailed off a little in terms of quality but you can't argue that Patty is one very compelling layerd character.
June 21, 2011 at 2:55PM ESTi agree with Dan in that the problem was not the lack of a reveal but more the lack of anything else intresting to keep me hooked for 13 hours when there is so much good TV around.
Tausif Khan
June 20, 2011 at 7:54PM EST Reply to CommentPeople who compose the writing staff of The Killing and the previous jobs they have had:
Veena Sud- Cold Case
Dawn Prestwich- Flash Forward
Nicole Yorkin- Flash Forward
Jeremy Doner- Damages
Nic Pizzolatto- Academia, Novelist, The Killing is his biggest show of note
Aaron Zelman- Law & Order, Criminal Minds and Damages
I think this says a lot about the choices on this show.
Another Bryan
June 20, 2011 at 8:12PM EST Reply to CommentLike Alan, I expected to get an answer in the finale and was only watching the last few episodes for that reason. Maybe I'm rationalizing, but I thought the show did imply that we'd get some kind of resolution in one season, mainly because of the plot line about Linden moving away. Putting off the move for 13 days was already getting ridiculous. Since they hadn't called off the wedding, I assumed the writers planned to finish up the case she could leave.
To play Devil's Advocate with myself, I think the election was around a month away at the start of the series. That would imply a two season time frame.
The only other thing I could think of that would suggest a time limit on the investigation is that eventually Holder would have to take on another case. "Homicide" had a rookie detective assigned to investigate the high-profile murder of a young girl, and the lead detective went back in the rotation after about a month in the book. (I just checked my copy.) I only saw the first season of the TV show, so does someone else know what happened there? I guess that undermines my original point. Two seasons could be a reasonable length of time for the investigation, whether it gets resolved in Season 2 or not. I doubt I'll be watching, though.
Sareeta
June 20, 2011 at 9:39PM EST Reply to CommentGame of Thrones:
While I would be glad to have a 13-episode season 2 of Game of Thrones, I think it is OK to do 10 episodes as long as they aren't planning on covering all of Clash of Kings. I think they need to divide the remaining books into at least 2 seasons a piece considering how much story is covered in each book. My understanding is they will be pulling some elements from Book 3 into season 2. I have already read some good theories on where they could end season 2 to both wrap up the season and set things up for the next season without covering the entire 2nd book.
The Killing:
I completely get your anger about The Killing finale. How many viewers follow what Veena Sud said during a TCA conference? My guess: not many. Most viewers, based on the advertising, expected a conclusion. My understanding is that Forbrydelsen revealed the answer within their 1st 20 episode season. Just because AMC's first season was 13 episodes isn't a good justification for stretching out this case. What a slap in the face to the fans.
Barbara
June 20, 2011 at 10:03PM EST Reply to CommentGood comments this week. I am amused at how irate Alan is at "The Killing" finale. I had a feeling this was going to end on a cliffhanger (I've seen the original Danish), so I wasn't particularly bothered by it. It isn't a good adaptation though.
BTW, can you put your phone(s) on silent?
sepinwall Barbara, see above answer to Murph...
June 21, 2011 at 6:45AM ESTBH
June 20, 2011 at 11:13PM EST Reply to CommentGreat podcast. Just an FYI for the future, maybe you two want to turn the ringers off your phones so we can't hear the 3925 texts you get.
sepinwall BH, see above answer to Murph...
June 21, 2011 at 6:45AM ESTTausif Khan
June 21, 2011 at 2:16AM EST Reply to CommentHow would you compare your disappointment in The Killing to your disappointment in How I Met Your Mother this season?
ln
June 21, 2011 at 2:55AM EST Reply to Commentdan, i love u but listening to u defending the ending is almost as painful as watching the ending
nycflo88
June 21, 2011 at 3:51AM EST Reply to CommentDane, after the pilot, the clumsiness began and continued until the end of season 1, it is not only in the finale. For this show, everything that came before, the last episode should have been the penultimate episode. What they produced was WORSE.
tag8833
June 21, 2011 at 9:57AM EST Reply to CommentTV stat boy is a hilarious idea. I volunteer.
AlexGolant
June 21, 2011 at 11:22AM EST Reply to CommentA blonde and a brunette can have a blonde child, but only if the brunette is carrying the recessive trait for blonde hair. If he doesn't have the recessive trait, then it is impossible.
Therefore it's not obvious that Robert is not Joffrey's father unless you have evidence that he is not carrying the recessive trait for blonde hair. Ned figures this out when he sees that none of Robert's real children have blonde hair, and Robert has a thing for blonde women. Once you have enough offspring with brown hair and their mothers with blonde hair, it becomes more obvious that King Robert did not have the recessive trait.
If Ned wanted to prove Joffrey was not Robert's son, he would have had to prove that Robert had a bunch of brown haired bastard children. There was no way Ned could do that from the stage.
mike
June 21, 2011 at 12:21PM EST Reply to Commentwow feinberg is terrible. why is he going to bat for the killing like that? sepinwall should do this with rotating critics.
AR He wasn't going to bat for The Killing. He was clearly disappointed with the show and hated the ending, he just focused his hatred on the content of the first 59 minutes, not the last minute of the hour.
June 21, 2011 at 12:53PM ESTAnd I have to say, I agree with him. As soon as the second season begins, how the first season ended will be irrelevant. If anyone watches the show in the future, they won't have to wait for the long gap between the first and second seasons. They won't feel betrayed by the broken promise of a resolution because they'll be able o go on to the next episode instantly and (presumably) find that resolution. All that will remain to critique will be the horrible writing, characterizations, and plotlines. Long term, that's what we should feel most betrayed by.
PotatoSolution
June 21, 2011 at 12:33PM EST Reply to CommentAlan asked a great question, why didn't Stan just tell Mitch about the house he bought, like, 11 episodes ago? Dan said "What would that accomplish?"
I think it would have shown the characters behaving like actual human beings FOR ONCE, and not just characters on a TV show that specifically withhold crucial information from each other simply because the writers wanted to create false tension. In the first few seasons of Mad Men, Don Draper had a very good reason to keep his secrets to himself. Stan in The Killing, on the other hand, had NO LOGICAL REASON to keep the house secret from Mitch, especially after their daughter was brutally murdered.
It's the same with Bennett Ahmed. At no point when he thought Stan was going to drive him out to a remote location and beat the shit out of him (twice!) he didn't explain, "Hey, there's this Muslim girl I've been protecting because of blah blah blah..." No, of course not, because instead of behaving like a rational human, he has to behave like a fictional character and not say anything for the sole purpose of manufacturing tension.
Blechh, this show just sucks.
Hatfield
June 21, 2011 at 1:45PM EST Reply to CommentAs a person with sometimes peculiar tastes, I gotta say I loved the use of the Transylvania 6-5000 song. But how did it fit the podcast?
sepinwall Leland Palmer dances to it on Twin Peaks.
June 21, 2011 at 1:51PM ESTHatfield Ahh, should have pointed out that I'm an episode behind on Twin Peaks and skipped that part of the podcast for now. And, because of that song, I will only fall further behind with the now compulsory viewing of Transylvania 6-5000 in my immediate future
June 21, 2011 at 2:14PM ESTMore Dragons!
June 21, 2011 at 3:57PM EST Reply to CommentThe lesson of The Killing: it's all in the execution. You can get away with just about anything if you do it well. Fineberg nails it. It was just bad writing.
Is it time for season 2 of Game of Thrones yet?
Dax
June 21, 2011 at 9:51PM EST Reply to CommentRe: Twin Peaks, the dream in European pilot vs. its appearance in Episode 3... considering Dan and Alan are both intending to check it out sometime soon, I won't spoil all of the parts not included in Episode 3, but this line Cooper says to Harry early in Episode 4 "You were there. Lucy, so were you" will make a lot more sense (since neither of them WERE in the dream as we saw it).
Rocks and bottles - an edited-for-time tidbit that fans had to speculate on for awhile, but dialogue later-in-series confirms as if we'd already been told it - there was a 'T' under first victim Theresa Banks' fingernail (the chalkboard shows a circled letter 'T', but Cooper doesn't get to explain it)...
I LOVE the entrances of both Jerry Horne and Albert Rosenfield - hilarious scenes, both.
Mmm, Audrey dancing....
DW
June 22, 2011 at 12:36PM EST Reply to CommentYou guys obviously haven't watched much Canadian TV. It is designed to look cheap and generic, not full of "panache". Chaos is expensive, even if it would result in a better show.
Matt
June 24, 2011 at 2:31AM EST Reply to CommentI think if AMC had advertised "The Killing" as a "multi-season investigation" the reaction to the finale would be radically different in that *no one* would be left to watch it.
Kid
June 26, 2011 at 1:35PM EST Reply to CommentGame Of Thrones spoilers.)
C'mon guys, didn't you get it about Ned's Death? He false confessed to save his daughters lifes, not his own. If he would expose that Joffrey is false heir, what would be with them? Shure they won't live long. So he saved them.