Inside TV+Movies with Daniel Fienberg

Listen: Firewall & Iceberg Podcast No. 125

Dan and Alan talk 'L.A. Complex,' reality TV, 'Game of Thrones,' 'Girls' and more

By Daniel Fienberg Monday, Apr 23, 2012 3:39 PM

The

Happy Monday, Boys and Girls!

In this week's installment of The Firewall & Iceberg Podcast, we've got a correction, a review of The CW's "L.A. Complex," Dan's Reality Roundup, discussion of "Mad Men" and "Game of Thrones" and a pile of Listener Mail, including two questions about "Girls" and the controversy therein.

That seems probably like enough for a full podcast, eh?

Here's Monday's podcast breakdown:

NFL on FOX (00:00:50 - 00:04:20)

"L.A. Complex" (00:04:15 - 00:13:05)

Dan's Reality Roundup (00:13:00 - 00:26:20)

Listener Mail - Two "Girls" Queries (00:26:35 - 00:39:10)

Listener Mail - Twitter Etiquette (00:39:20 - 00:43:15)

Listener Mail - "Arrested Development" on Netflix (00:43:20 - 00:50:10)

"Game of Thrones" (00:50:20 - 00:59:55)

Sunday's "Mad Men" (01:00:00 - 01:15:20)

As always, you can subscribe to The Firewall & Iceberg Podcast over at the iTunes Store, where you can also rate us and comment on us. [Or you can always follow our RSS Feed.]

And as always, feel free to e-mail us questions for the podcast.

Firewall & Iceberg - Podcast 125

Daniel Fienberg
Executive Editor

A long-time member of the TCA Board and a longer-time blogger of "American Idol," Dan Fienberg writes about TV, except for when he writes about movies or sometimes writes about the Red Sox. But never music. He would sound stupid talking about music.

Related Searches: Firewall & Iceberg, Podcast, Alan Sepinwall, daniel fienberg, Mad Men, L.A. Complex, Girls, Game of Thrones

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pecola

I watched the Canadian run of this show and I'm actually curious about how much of it will be edited for the CW. There's one storyline, in particular, that I have a hard time imagine the CW airing.
April 23, 2012 at 4:21PM EST Reply to Comment
- sepinwall If it's the one involving the rapper (and that's all we'll say for now), it seems to be intact. There's definitely some bleeping of dialogue here and there, and I don't know if any of the sex scenes had to be edited.
  April 23, 2012 at 4:52PM EST
- Hector There is a scene of not-exactly-explicit-but-definitely-not-subtle cunnilingus in episode 5 that I will be floored (in a good way) if it makes it to the CW intact.
  April 23, 2012 at 8:20PM EST
renton

Fox actually stole the CBS NFL package. I worked at a CBS station at the time and it was devastating.
April 23, 2012 at 4:43PM EST Reply to Comment
- sepinwall Yes, you are all right. Fox stole the NFC package from CBS, and then CBS stole the AFC package from NBC, and eventually NBC stole Monday Night Football (which turned into Sunday Night Football) from ABC. The circle of life!
  April 23, 2012 at 4:53PM EST
- Jim So NBC stole MNF, turned it into SNF and then they recreated MNF on ESPN???????
  April 23, 2012 at 5:09PM EST
- sepinwall Yes. The Sunday Night Football package is what the Monday Night Football package used to be, give or take the theme music.
  April 23, 2012 at 6:01PM EST
tancred

FOX actually swiped the NFC games from CBS (not NBC). I will now go hang my head in shame for being 'that guy'.
April 23, 2012 at 4:45PM EST Reply to Comment
tancred

[Damn you, Renton]
April 23, 2012 at 4:48PM EST Reply to Comment
Tom

FOX stole the NFC package from CBS. Do you're research people.
April 23, 2012 at 4:49PM EST Reply to Comment
Jim

What about extolling the greatness of the Texas Rangers?????
April 23, 2012 at 5:08PM EST Reply to Comment
Traie

That was not The Naked Prey in the Peggy goes to the Cinema scene BTW, not sure what film that was. The Naked Prey should be seen however, it's a fantastic film.
BTW No mention that John Slattery directed last weeks episode, I thought it was a very well directed episode, and considering that you spent some time discussing Hamm's episode, I'm a little surprised it didn't come up. Love the show and analysis, see you next week.
April 23, 2012 at 5:26PM EST Reply to Comment
- Traie -As Fastbak says below, apparently it was "Born Free." I should have known that. I still blame Stat Phoebe Tonkin.
  
  We discussed Slattery's direction last season when he was behind the camera. At this point, since he's done it three times, I don't even look at him as being an actor directing on the show anymore. He's just a pro...
  
  -Daniel
  April 23, 2012 at 6:11PM EST
Fastbak

The movie Peggy was watching "Born Free"(1966) not "The Naked Prey". They should have played the theme song by John Barry.
April 23, 2012 at 5:27PM EST Reply to Comment
- gladly I was really hoping they'd play the "Born Free" theme song over the closing credits. To compensate, I've been wailing it in my house and my car at the top of my lungs.
  April 24, 2012 at 12:02PM EST
Tom

Colton will not be coming back. The fans hated-hated him and the casual viewers forgot about him by now.
April 23, 2012 at 5:31PM EST Reply to Comment
- Tom - But would you not watch to see him get him comeuppance? In my recap, I proposed a "Survivor: Crazed Napoleon Complex" season with three tribes, featuring Colton, Cochran and Brandon Hanz. I don't want any of those guys back, but it might be fun to watch their tribes race to vote them out...
  
  -Daniel
  April 23, 2012 at 6:13PM EST
- Greg Colton was hated-hated, but he was also too polemic to never come back. He shook things up, he made a lot of things happen. Yes, he was also infuriating (to say the least), but he is the kind of player that Survivor desperately needs now: one that makes unpredictable things. As much I hated him, these last few episodes have been boring as hell.
  April 23, 2012 at 6:22PM EST
Jason22

Wow a Power Play reference, very impressive Alan, I was also one of the tiny few who was excited about that show.

You had two Due South folks in it, and hockey, how could it go wrong?

Thanks for the GoT talk, I still wish you guys would do it weekly, as there is so much to discuss even without one shred of book knowledge, but I understand why it's not going to happen.
April 23, 2012 at 6:05PM EST Reply to Comment
Kwaku

Girls was seen by many people as being The Millennial story. I don't think the show's creator did this but the way it was promoted by HBO, the way critics talked about it before the debut made it that way. It was touted for being gritty and super realistic. it wasn't just that Hannah's circle of friends are all White, it was that the entire city was seemingly White with the exception of her co-worker and the homeless man.

And the tweet by the staff writer and some old comments she made on her blog gave the story new legs.

I think this criticism would have come and gone if the show wasn't sooooooo hyped. People of a certain profession started talking about this show as the best show of this season a month before the first episode air. There was always going to be a backlash but the hype made it bigger.
April 23, 2012 at 6:30PM EST Reply to Comment
Hatfield

Dan, I also took much longer than I'm comfortable admitting to figure out the multiple storylines. In hindsight the fades(?) seem to have been the editing clue, but I was not with it until the end of Roger's story. You're not alone!
April 23, 2012 at 6:51PM EST Reply to Comment
War Chief Shake Zula

CW may have LOOKED more like WB, but it got a lot of bad genes from UPN in the form of the upper management. There's a reason why CW hasn't turned it around...
April 23, 2012 at 7:17PM EST Reply to Comment
Mike

Dan, I have to take a bit of issue with your comment that about people having no attachments to any of the characters on Survivor post-Colton, and I feel that position is very Probstian of you, given the gender of the person that I do feel a strong affinity for (one might even use a bad play on the word 'insanity' to describe it...).
The game Kim has played this season to this point is one of the best a woman has played on Survivor, and if she wins, she's arguably the best woman to ever play the game, and in the conversation for one of the best first seasons of anyone that has ever played. Is her game less flashy than Rob or Russell, sure, but it's no less impressive in my book.
April 23, 2012 at 7:25PM EST Reply to Comment
- dan Mike - Probstian! Nice!
  
  Kim has played a VERY good game and I respect it. I'm not rooting for her, because I'm not rooting for anybody, but if she wins, she will have absolutely deserved to win on every level. Until she's won two seasons, she's not in the discussion as the best woman to play the game, because Sandra's got that one on lock-down.
  
  If I denigrate Kim's performance at all, it's only because the men she's playing with are SO dreadful.
  
  I just don't think "Survivor" has done a good job of developing Kim as a human and so I don't much care about her.
  
  -Daniel
  April 23, 2012 at 7:33PM EST
- Mike Fair enough, although I actually am rooting for Kim... I just like people that play smart games (that's both why I watch Survivor, and why I'm so often disappointed by it. A survivor season structured like Justified S3 with everyone planning and counter-planning and planning for the counter-plan would be my dream season). Plus, given the current political climate, which has certainly spilled over to TV in the discussion of Girls, it's really nice to see a woman play this complex, powerful game that still manages to be feminine (in the way that there's much less desire to swing her dick around about how dominant she is), but yet still in complete and utter control that I fail to recall many women on Survivor having. She's not 'playing like a man,' she's just playing like a strong woman that Survivor never casts.
  
  In the case of winning two seasons, I don't think that's entirely fair to people like Brian, Yul, Todd (and potentially Kim) that only got one chance to play. It's not like they're one for two, they're still one for one.
  
  P.S. What player ever has won while facing non-dreadful competition? I feel like that's the knock on everyone from Boston Rob in Redemption Island all the way back to Richard in Borneo. Are these men any worse than the nitwits in most seasons?
  April 23, 2012 at 8:22PM EST
- Chris Mike,
  
  While it's certainly true that every winner has faced mediocre, terrible and/or disinterested competition, the men this season, whether it was strictly the result of editing I don't know, have been especially dreadful.
  
  This much was clear before they even merged at 6-6 and didn't even bat an eye about voting off a member from their original tribe. As evidenced by dividing the tribe between frumpy/aging guys and alpha male types/wannabes (in other words, making no attempt to establish bonds in a thoughtful way), and letting Colton openly walk all over them to the point that they voluntarily went to tribal council.
  
  Kim is, in fact, playing an outstanding game and win or lose, I hope she's invited back. Most of the men's post-merge collapse seems to be the direct result of her game play.
  
  But has she even been lied to this season? The men have been so pitiful in mounting any sort of counter-attack -- though Troy at least finally tried these past two weeks -- that through no fault of her own I credit the guys ouster as much to their own failings as I do her masterful strategy.
  April 23, 2012 at 10:38PM EST
- Mike They certainly have been dreadful, but honestly, the vote at the merge doesn't seem that bad to me (ignoring hindsight). I mean look at a season like Amazon that had the similar 'Men v. Women, tribe swap, merge' format. Rob C, Matt and Alex didn't bat an eye voting out Rodger because they had a new alliance with Deena, Heidi, and Jenna (and the men even actually had the numbers that season). The only thing difference here is that Deena wasn't playing the guys in that season like Kim was here. It's not an inherently bad decision.
  
  As for the more general point, I'm still convinced that these guys this season are worse than the usual crop. To Chris or Dan, what seasons do you have in mind where the winner faced stiffer competition than these admittedly not too bright men?
  April 24, 2012 at 1:50AM EST
- Chris Mike,
  
  I started watching Survivor halfway through the Tom Westman season, so I can't knowingly comment on your example. I just found it odd that so many of the men were so prepared to vote out Jonas, who was harmless, whereas Kim was anything but. Maybe that's an example of her great game play -- convincing others she's trustworthy -- but it just seemed like such a galling oversight stemming from petty grievances.
  
  Hmm, I can't remember everything so vividly -- My long-term TV memory seems preoccupied with the Mad Men's, Sopranos, Wire's and Breaking Bad's of the world. But from what I can recall in the seasons I've watched, and without delving into any great detail, I'd say Yul, Earl, Danni, Todd, Parvati, JT & Sandra all faced far more formidable competition, whether it was from either individuals or sizable groups conspiring against the eventual winner. Not all these people are necessarily better strategists than Kim, just that their opponents didn't seem so easily led around by the nose.
  
  It warrants mentioning that none of those people are from the last three seasons, which is what makes Kim's play so enjoyable to watch but also partly why it seems held in such high regard. Comparatively, we haven't seen someone with this strong of a grasp of how to play in awhile.
  April 24, 2012 at 9:54AM EST
- dan Mike - Regarding this season's Men being *extra* chump-y, I only submit this: If any *one* of them had refused to go to that Colton-mandated anti-Bill Tribal Council witch hunt, it couldn't have happened. Instead, they sacrificed Immunity and numbers in a CLEARLY delineated male versus female situation in which they were on the verge of taking an advantage that was prohibitive. When you look at the annihilation of the Men that has come afterwards, you've gotta give credit to Kim for masterminding much of it, but you also have to remember that the Men started it entirely on their own...
  
  IMO, of course...
  
  -Daniel
  April 24, 2012 at 12:15PM EST
- Mike Well, to the first point, that's unfortunate as Amazon (along with Sandra's first season in Pearl Islands) are the seasons I'd still consider my favorites, but it's a very similar situation. The tribes switched, and each trio liked their new friends better and stuck with that group post-merge.
  
  As for not being able to have as vivid a memory, that's nothing to be ashamed of, I have more Survivor stuck in my head than I probably should. As per your examples, I can see your point on Danni and Todd, but some seem a bit more tenuous to me. I mean, Parvati, really? Was anything the men have done here nearly as bad as Ozzy and Jason getting voted out with idols in their pockets? Not to mention Erik's massive blunder. Once Penner was evacuated, there was no resistance left, Parvati, Nat and Cirie just steamrolled everyone pretty easily.
  April 24, 2012 at 1:19PM EST
- Mike Dan - Fair point. I was primarily looking at their behavior post-merge where it does seem more Kim being great than them being bad, but the voluntary tribal council was pretty horrendous on all counts.
  April 24, 2012 at 1:28PM EST
- Chris Ultimately I don't want to compare individual games because Kim is in the midst of hers and Parvati won her second time around (Kim is FAR and away better than Parvati was her first time out). But outlasting Cirie is an impressive feat in its own right, and she's far better than any of Kim's competition has shown thus far. Right now Kim is micromanaging as efficiently and effectively as anyone before her, but I think that says something about everyone she's with that they allow themselves to be micromanaged. This is again, for me at least, to her credit just as much as to her opponents fault.
  
  With that said, I'll be interested to see what the rest of the women come up with from here on out. Because as of now, they've been edited to show that their primary contributions are following marching orders and not divulging too much information to the menfolk. The men, of course, have been too dimwitted to figure out what that discretion may have implied.
  
  Also, there's some tweets/online clips from Christina & Alicia in which they allude to telling the guys about a core-four women's alliance, but their warnings fell on deaf ears. Makes me wonder why they didn't vote with Troy last week. Oh well.
  April 24, 2012 at 10:45PM EST
Ilyrio

Unfortunately, the part of Arya's story Game of Thrones that they've reached (Harrenhal and the Mountain) is nothing short of torture porn for the sake of being disgusting.

The fact that you guys didn't find it off-putting to a greater degree tells me something.
April 23, 2012 at 9:28PM EST Reply to Comment
John

Disagree with Alan, I am not a book reader, but as far as Stannis goes, I think the show has demonstrated that he's a rigid, rule based person who thinks he should be king by "right."

Even though I don't like him, I thought his line to Cat about how Nedd died for his claim to the throne and now his family isn't supporting him was effective.
April 23, 2012 at 9:57PM EST Reply to Comment
Heather

I did the googling and this was the first article I got so good on Count Bernadotte and the Swedes http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1651-2227.1948.tb06791.x/abstract

I didn't understand if Michael Ginsberg was implying that his father adopted him in Sweden or he was his natural father and found his son in Sweden.
April 23, 2012 at 10:44PM EST Reply to Comment
amg

Love the opening music choice, Dan. Captures both the LSD and Beatles references from MM this week. Between this and the Beastie Boys last week, you are setting the bar high! =)
April 24, 2012 at 1:01AM EST Reply to Comment
WaltEagle

Pete/Kartheiser was in all 13 episodes last year, and four of those appearances were very brief and/or silent. I don't think there are many episodes-per-year limits on actors' appearances, because who appears most regularly appears almost random. Ken Cosgrove was in every episode of the first two seasons (more than Pete/Betty/Roger/Joan), and in season 3 Sally and Bobby were in every episode. It seems they just use whoever they want, whenever.
April 24, 2012 at 2:53AM EST Reply to Comment
Stormshadow4life

For the record, I kind of think Lena is cute.
Also, the show is hilarious (based on 2 eps).

And finally, I don't really get the whole "lack of diversity" discussion. I've never watched a show in my life and said "man, there are too many/too few, black/white/asian people on this show!". Sometimes i think the people noticing this and complaining about it are the actual vaguely racist ones.
April 24, 2012 at 8:57AM EST Reply to Comment
Johan

Alan: Lilyhammer is set in Norway and not Sweden as you mistakenly said.
As a swede I must say there is a very big difference between our two countrys ;)
April 24, 2012 at 12:45PM EST Reply to Comment
- sepinwall My apologies to the great nation of Norway. Sigh...
  April 24, 2012 at 1:36PM EST
- Jerry Nice job complimenting the great nation of Norway to the Swede. This podcast and comments section is really just an elaborate method to pick on Johan, it looks like!
  April 24, 2012 at 4:31PM EST
- MoreTears I'm sure Alan was just doing homage to Hell On Wheels, one of whose characters is from Norway but is nick-named "The Swede," presumably because 19th century Americans just didn't give a damn about fine distinctions in matters Scandinavian.
  April 25, 2012 at 8:16AM EST
maryfran

So you thought "Far Away Places" was better than "Signal 30"? Color me surprised. It was good episode but it didn't feel as profound. Roger's epiphany still seems kind of shallow to me - funny, but shallow. The best part was Don being scary scary. MW really takes risks with his leads doesn't he?

April 27, 2012 at 3:59PM EST Reply to Comment

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Option 1

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Option 3

pecola I watched the Canadian run of this show and I'm actually curious about how much of it will be edited for the CW. There's one storyline, in particular, that I have a hard time imagine the CW airing.

sepinwall If it's the one involving the rapper (and that's all we'll say for now), it seems to be intact. There's definitely some bleeping of dialogue here and there, and I don't know if any of the sex scenes had to be edited.

Hector There is a scene of not-exactly-explicit-but-definitely-not-subtle cunnilingus in episode 5 that I will be floored (in a good way) if it makes it to the CW intact.

renton Fox actually stole the CBS NFL package. I worked at a CBS station at the time and it was devastating.

sepinwall Yes, you are all right. Fox stole the NFC package from CBS, and then CBS stole the AFC package from NBC, and eventually NBC stole Monday Night Football (which turned into Sunday Night Football) from ABC. The circle of life!

Jim So NBC stole MNF, turned it into SNF and then they recreated MNF on ESPN???????

sepinwall Yes. The Sunday Night Football package is what the Monday Night Football package used to be, give or take the theme music.

tancred FOX actually swiped the NFC games from CBS (not NBC). I will now go hang my head in shame for being 'that guy'.

tancred [Damn you, Renton]

Tom FOX stole the NFC package from CBS. Do you're research people.

Jim What about extolling the greatness of the Texas Rangers?????

Fastbak The movie Peggy was watching "Born Free"(1966) not "The Naked Prey". They should have played the theme song by John Barry.

gladly I was really hoping they'd play the "Born Free" theme song over the closing credits. To compensate, I've been wailing it in my house and my car at the top of my lungs.

Tom Colton will not be coming back. The fans hated-hated him and the casual viewers forgot about him by now.

Hatfield Dan, I also took much longer than I'm comfortable admitting to figure out the multiple storylines. In hindsight the fades(?) seem to have been the editing clue, but I was not with it until the end of Roger's story. You're not alone!

War Chief Shake Zula CW may have LOOKED more like WB, but it got a lot of bad genes from UPN in the form of the upper management. There's a reason why CW hasn't turned it around...

Mike Dan - Fair point. I was primarily looking at their behavior post-merge where it does seem more Kim being great than them being bad, but the voluntary tribal council was pretty horrendous on all counts.

Ilyrio Unfortunately, the part of Arya's story Game of Thrones that they've reached (Harrenhal and the Mountain) is nothing short of torture porn for the sake of being disgusting.The fact that you guys didn't find it off-putting to a greater degree tells me something.

amg Love the opening music choice, Dan. Captures both the LSD and Beatles references from MM this week. Between this and the Beastie Boys last week, you are setting the bar high! =)

Johan Alan: Lilyhammer is set in Norway and not Sweden as you mistakenly said.As a swede I must say there is a very big difference between our two countrys ;)

sepinwall My apologies to the great nation of Norway. Sigh...

Jerry Nice job complimenting the great nation of Norway to the Swede. This podcast and comments section is really just an elaborate method to pick on Johan, it looks like!

MoreTears I'm sure Alan was just doing homage to Hell On Wheels, one of whose characters is from Norway but is nick-named "The Swede," presumably because 19th century Americans just didn't give a damn about fine distinctions in matters Scandinavian.

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pecola

I watched the Canadian run of this show and I'm actually curious about how much of it will be edited for the CW. There's one storyline, in particular, that I have a hard time imagine the CW airing.

renton

Fox actually stole the CBS NFL package. I worked at a CBS station at the time and it was devastating.

tancred

FOX actually swiped the NFC games from CBS (not NBC). I will now go hang my head in shame for being 'that guy'.

tancred

[Damn you, Renton]

Tom

FOX stole the NFC package from CBS. Do you're research people.

Jim

What about extolling the greatness of the Texas Rangers?????

Fastbak

The movie Peggy was watching "Born Free"(1966) not "The Naked Prey". They should have played the theme song by John Barry.

Tom

Colton will not be coming back. The fans hated-hated him and the casual viewers forgot about him by now.

Hatfield

Dan, I also took much longer than I'm comfortable admitting to figure out the multiple storylines. In hindsight the fades(?) seem to have been the editing clue, but I was not with it until the end of Roger's story. You're not alone!

War Chief Shake Zula

CW may have LOOKED more like WB, but it got a lot of bad genes from UPN in the form of the upper management. There's a reason why CW hasn't turned it around...

Ilyrio

Unfortunately, the part of Arya's story Game of Thrones that they've reached (Harrenhal and the Mountain) is nothing short of torture porn for the sake of being disgusting.

The fact that you guys didn't find it off-putting to a greater degree tells me something.

amg

Love the opening music choice, Dan. Captures both the LSD and Beatles references from MM this week. Between this and the Beastie Boys last week, you are setting the bar high! =)

Johan

Alan: Lilyhammer is set in Norway and not Sweden as you mistakenly said.
As a swede I must say there is a very big difference between our two countrys ;)

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