Listen: Firewall & Iceberg Podcast No. 110
Dan and Alan review 'Work It,' 'Shameless,' 'Downton Abbey,' 'The Firm' and more
The Firewall & Iceberg Podcast leaps into 2012 with a busy show that includes reviews of "Work It," "Downton Abbey," "Shameless," "House of Lies" and "The Firm."
As if that's not enough, we fielded a little bit of Listener Mail.
And as if that weren't enough, we also spent WAY too long -- especially since this podcast was a Skype nightmare -- talking about the NFL MVP race and then the Baseball Hall of Fame ballot.
As a friendly reminder: The sports stuff is 100% backloaded to the end of what was already a regulation-lengthed podcast. It didn't take away from our TV talk time. It was just something we did at the end. We won't be offended if you don't listen.
And don't worry, we probably won't do any sports talk the next couple weeks, because we're going to be at Press Tour and there will still be premieres galore. But we'll be in the same place.
Anyway, here's the breakdown:
"Work It" (02:35 - 17:15)
"Downton Abbey" (17:20 - 27:20)
"The Firm" (27:25 - 38:20)
"Shameless" (38:30 - 47:55)
"House of Lies" (48:00 - 56:40)
Listener Mail - Reviewing shows projecting forward (57:00 - 01:04:10)
The NFL MVP Race (01:04:35 - 01:10:15)
The Baseball Hall of Fame (01:10:15 - 01:31:30)
As always, you can subscribe to The Firewall & Iceberg Podcast over at the iTunes Store, where you can also rate us and comment on us. [Or you can always follow our RSS Feed.]
A long-time member of the TCA Board and a longer-time blogger of "American Idol," Dan Fienberg writes about TV, except for when he writes about movies or sometimes writes about the Red Sox. But never music. He would sound stupid talking about music.
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Login or create a HitFix account Login SignupWar Chief Shake Zula
January 2, 2012 at 6:53PM EST Reply to CommentYou have said that before...back at the Take Me To The Pilots screener review...
January 2, 2012 at 6:56PM ESTSorry. :-(
-Daniel
War Chief Shake Zula That's fine. It's been a while - always nice to have a refresher...
January 2, 2012 at 7:24PM ESTGT
January 2, 2012 at 7:22PM EST Reply to CommentI think you meant World War One...
sepinwall I did. The story doesn't leap forward 20+ years.
January 2, 2012 at 7:29PM ESTWar Chief Shake Zula
January 2, 2012 at 7:31PM EST Reply to CommentI think they do know...there's nothing like DELIBERATELY repeating history due to creative bankruptcy and the fact that this generation hasn't heard of The Firm...
War Chief Shake Zula Not very interesting procedural? Doesn't sound good...GODFORSAKEN TRAILERS! (but hey, there's The Mentalist on the night, and Archer)
January 2, 2012 at 7:32PM ESTWar Chief Shake Zula If they're using green-screen and still failing to convey DC, then that's bad...
January 2, 2012 at 7:38PM ESTWar Chief Shake Zula Talk about needing a new strategy...if "latching onto a brand" is all NBC can come up w/ in terms of trying to launch hits, then they deserve to keep slumping in the ratings...
January 2, 2012 at 7:41PM ESTWar Chief Shake Zula Too bad McConaughey stole it back...or maybe it's just that he had a career in the first place...either way, props to Stewie for trying to kill him a few years ago...
January 2, 2012 at 7:43PM EST[stream of consciousness thoughts FOR THE WIN!]
M It seems like latching onto a brand is all Robert Greenblatt knows how to do. NBC originally passed on Wonder Woman, but he picked it up to pilot as soon as he got there--which having seen the pilot is a bit of a mystery since it was clearly a dud of a script. He put The Firm on the air this season and he's got tv versions of Hannibal, Romancing the Stone, and Easy Rawlins lined up for next year in addition to a remake of The Munsters. So much for him turning things around at NBC.
January 2, 2012 at 9:04PM ESTWar Chief Shake Zula Seconded. I guess NBC wants to keep being the Buffalo Bills of broadcast...
January 2, 2012 at 10:15PM ESThappygolucky12
January 2, 2012 at 7:40PM EST Reply to CommentIf NBC wanted to cash in on the name of an old Tom Cruise movie why not Top Gun? Or The Rain Man? Or A Few Good Men? Hell, they could get in on the vampire craze and make a movie based off of Interview With a Vampire.
War Chief Shake Zula Because, all of those cost too much for Canadian television...[bazinga]
January 2, 2012 at 7:48PM ESTWar Chief Shake Zula
January 2, 2012 at 8:20PM EST Reply to CommentYes, he did...and the show got worse as a result...
But no, sadly, he did not...(I'd watch a Prison Break-House crossover, if only for the sheer silliness of it...)...
BRG
January 2, 2012 at 8:26PM EST Reply to CommentRE the Brees/Rodgers argument: agree that we are in a pass happy era and numbers are inflated, but Brees plays at a dome in home (11 of 16 in a dome overall in 2011) and Rodgers plays his home games at Lambeau. That is one differentiating factor that should be considered (similar to adjusting a hitter or pitchers numbers if they play in a pitcher/batter's park)
John And Rodgers' backup threw 6 TD's in a game. Brady also played outside, and beat Marino's record, oh, and both the Saints and the Pack have more weapons than the Pats (apart from the incredible gronk). It should be Rodgers vs Brady. Brees plays in a dome and in an awful awful division.
January 5, 2012 at 3:05AM ESTBRG
January 2, 2012 at 8:27PM EST Reply to CommentRE the Brees/Rodgers debate: Brees plays in a dome and only had to play 5 outdoor games all year. That is a differentiating factor in Rodgers' favor.
gregel
January 2, 2012 at 9:17PM EST Reply to CommentA long awaited sports segment and no NBA talk? Boo.
sepinwall We've done NBA talk in previous sports segments, Greg.
January 2, 2012 at 9:55PM ESTTausif Khan Alan, isn't Greg your boss? I understand talking to commenters who get a little to pointed in their comments like that (like me) but your boss?
January 3, 2012 at 6:10PM ESTTom
January 2, 2012 at 10:50PM EST Reply to CommentKristen Bell, reliable nudity, you just sold me on House of Lies.
January 2, 2012 at 10:52PM EST-Daniel
odessasteps
January 2, 2012 at 11:13PM EST Reply to CommentDid you record this during the winter classic? Ny team, the sport of dan's homeland ...
Tausif Khan
January 2, 2012 at 11:43PM EST Reply to CommentAlan and/or Dan can "The Firm" be something that can air on The USA Network? Can it be distinguished from "Suits'?
January 2, 2012 at 11:56PM EST-Daniel
Tausif Khan
January 2, 2012 at 11:50PM EST Reply to CommentFor me the MVP debate should center around one question "How well with the team perform without the player in question?"
Given that question the MVP this year will be Peyton Manning.
But for people who played this year I have to go with Drew Brees. Because in a not so last meaningless last game of the season the back-up quarterback of the Green Bay Packers Matt Flynn threw for 480 YARDS and 6 TDs. This shows that while Aaron Rodgers is a great quarterback as he is trying to play a team sport while Brett Favre was trying to play God injuring the arms of wide receivers but throwing lightning bolt passes and taking games into his own hands when he didn't need to. Because Flynn was able to have that much success it shows that Rodgers plays in a great system.
Drew Brees is very much integral to New Orleans' success and had a great individual year. So for me the MVP of the league is definitively Drew Brees.
Kendra More integral to the team? Then I'd say Brady would have it over Brees.
January 3, 2012 at 11:43AM ESTIt'd be a shame of Rodgers lost the MVP race because he played so well throughout the course of the season that Green Bay could afford to start their backup. And Brees has had made costly mistakes, including multiple interception games, that one could argue would have been won had he not made those errors.
It's a tough choice for voters but I don't think Matt Flynn should be part of the discussion.
Tausif Khan Matt Cassel replaced Brady a couple of years ago and had a better performance than many of the quarterbacks who have reached the playoffs this year. Brady like Rodgers plays in a great system.
January 3, 2012 at 6:04PM ESTLooking at counterfactuals helps us understand the value of the individual player to the team. A player can be most valuable if another player can come in and do basically what that player does. Brady and Rodgers both were demonstrated to be people who can lead a great system.
The New Orleans success is very much a product of Drew Brees' singular leadership. He had to weather (pun not intended) the team through some hardships this season. It demonstrates in inextricable value to the team.
Matt Flynn and Matt Cassel matter.
Tausif Khan Similarly, then Eli Manning then becomes entered into the MVP race for similar reasons. Manning did not have as great individual season with the Giants as Brees had with New Orleans. For me for those who played it is definitively Brees.
January 3, 2012 at 6:08PM ESTHowever, if I was given a vote I would definitely give the MVP to Peyton Manning as his lose to the Colts led them from being a contender for the Super Bowl to being the worst teams in the NFL. That show how much of that organization was built and succeed based on the play of Peyton Manning.
Ken Raining
January 3, 2012 at 12:10AM EST Reply to CommentDan, you're correct that it's nigh impossible for a comedy to reach "so bad it's good" status. It's really not all that hard to figure out why; when drama fails, the results are often comic, but when a comedy fails, it's just not funny. Where is it supposed to go? Bad comedy is usually just unwatchable; there's a reason most every "Mystery Science Theater 3000" experiment was a drama.
You guys were a little light on "House of Lies", I thought; the pilot is TERRIBLE.
belinda I wouldn't say House of Lies is horrible, but it didn't excite me at all either. So...I'll stick with it for a few eps just based on the fact that Cheadle, Bell and Jean Ralphio are in it.
January 3, 2012 at 3:35AM ESTWaltEagle
January 3, 2012 at 1:16AM EST Reply to CommentI'm still undecided on whether I'll watch House of Lies. You guys mentioned Cheadle and Bell's roles, but is Schwartz playing Jean-Ralphio 2.0 or a fresh role?
Also, you guys lightly touched on this general point, but I think that sometimes, without their context as revealed by late-season twists, the earlier episodes of a season are less enjoyable. I think expressing dislike of these episodes (even without their context) is perfectly legitimate, as we are seeing and interpreting them without finale-twist context (barring a re-watch) so they have essentially written a non-enjoyable show for the majority of the season. My example for that would be Lost season 6, where the finale reveals would have given every episode (besides Richard's) more significance for analysis, but without that context I personally found most episodes underwhelming.
Ken Raining At least in the pilot, Ben Schwartz' role is not very prominent, but it didn't strike me as very Jean-Ralphio, sadly. He did have one douchy moment, though, so there's cause for hope.
January 4, 2012 at 9:28AM ESTJason22
January 3, 2012 at 4:29AM EST Reply to CommentAs I said on twitter, greatest podcast ever, talking about Jesus Montero and all the other sports talk.
I agree on the Football, split the MVP, both guys had historic seasons, they should share it.
Onto baseball talk and Bernie Williams, when you look at the HOF you need to look at the era they played in, and Bernie was the best center fielder of his era not named Ken GriffeyJ
He had a 8 year period from 1995 to 2002, where his #s are most definitely HOF worthy.
He will not get in I agree, but I think he might deserve to, although it is close. One thing for sure though, the fact Kirby Puckett is in, and Bernie who had the better career will not do so, is not right.
Rock Raines was a very good defensive outfielder, he was not some offensive only player, the guy was a complete all around great player. Same as with Bernie, the era he played in, he was one of the best players in the game. I totally agree on Bagwell by the way, the guy deserves to be in, you can't disqualify him for something he might have done.
I can't believe Alan brought up Jesus Montero, that made my night as a fellow Yankee fan. I have seen him catch many times,and he is no worse than Posada and Piazza were. I think though for the Yankees future it's better he only do so part time, until Texiera leaves and they put him on first plus DHing, to save his body. I think he catches 50 games this year, and next year it goes up to 80 or 90 same as they did with breaking Jorge in.
Dan is going to learn to fear Jesus as all Sox fans will, and you will hate the Seattle Gm forever for idiotically backing out of that trade.
Finally as someone who has seen the entire Downton Abbey season as well as the Xmas special, I thought it really took a step backward with the circular story-lines, and much of it became a rather silly soap.
Honestly only the Sybil story-line was really well done. I agree it's still not a bad show or anything, just for how great the first season was, I was disappointed in the 2nd.
I will say the Xmas special started to get some of the story on the right track, except for one of the plots which was more absurd than I thought possible.
Excellent show guys!
Jonathan
January 3, 2012 at 9:31AM EST Reply to CommentWhere is my goddamn Jane by Design review??
January 3, 2012 at 11:05AM ESTSareeta
January 3, 2012 at 9:47AM EST Reply to CommentThe House of Lies pilot was terrible. Not only is it not funny, the characters aren't even entertaining.
re: Press Tour, can you post the schedule? Which networks are showing up and which series will they be talking about.
I should say I'm UKer
January 3, 2012 at 11:11AM EST Reply to CommentDownton Series 1 was a soap in the way of Mad Men, you only got occasional reminders that you were watching one. Series 2 taps into the soapy stuff more frequently. And Mister "I can't clarify anything because I'm noble" Bates (also in contention was "my wife is a complete villain but she said if I pay her we're good and her word is gold") and Anna went from endearing to irritating. So what I'm saying is I like reiterating the same things I've just heard. And then more obstacles for the central couple although...Not saying I won't watch series 3 but it fell a notch into not quite guilty pleasure.
erika_herzog
January 3, 2012 at 11:45AM EST Reply to Commentto me THE FIRM is a lot like PRIME SUSPECT -- the networks are trolling for a "sure-thing" idea based on a previously successful films / shows and shuck all the things that made the original work.
with PRIME SUSPECT that worked because the show eventually found a tone and a bunch of characters that were enjoyable and interesting -- and pretty much had little to no connection to the Helen Mirren original.
i just re-watched THE FIRM (the movie) and it doesn't really hold up very well. i remember my initial enjoyment of the movie was in Gene Hackman's role, and the charm of Tom Cruise. John Grisham as a construct after what i find to be an overall procedural fatigue is just plain dated.
then the casting of THE FIRM just doesn't work as you said. very sad.
it's still a bit shocking to me that you guys aren't watching stuff online streaming. i know it's your bread and butter to watch only "official screeners" but it's not very realistic to what most people are doing these days.
TJ
January 3, 2012 at 12:44PM EST Reply to CommentFrom your description of the night club scene, I have the Dave Chappelle Rick James scenes in my head. Is the production value... that bad? Because if so man I would love to catch this one to point and laugh.
Lunatic96
January 4, 2012 at 1:28AM EST Reply to CommentTim Raines got on base more than Tony Gwynn and Gwynn sailed in on his first ballet. Add in Raines' steals and he obviously belongs in the HoF.
I do love these sports segments though because then I don't have to go looking for a sports podcast and it helps scratch the baseball itch that develops over winter.
January 4, 2012 at 1:46AM ESTRaines has more steals.
-Daniel
Lunatic96 Actually Gwynn's the compiler of the 2. Gwynnn's slugging % advantage is entirely reliant on his batting average, Raines has the higher .ISO which measures how much SLG is related to actually making extra base hits and not just piling on the singles.
January 4, 2012 at 4:39AM ESTThey also had remarkably similar total plate appearances, Raines was at 10359 for his career and Gwynn was at 10232, so throwing out the compiling defense doesn't really work. I really don't think an extra 127 plate appearances qualifies as being a "complier." And even if it did, then Raines 400+ advantage in stolen bases while only being caught 21 more times more than makes up for it.
I certainly believe in batting average, it definitely exists, I just don't believe that it's anywhere close to being the best way to measure how good someone was at getting on base. Both Raines and Gwynn got on base an extraordinarily simiar amounts during careers that basically overlapped. Gwynn hit more singles, Raines stole more bases, hit more HRs, and walked a lot more. They both clearly belong in the HoF.
Crumdawg97
January 4, 2012 at 11:40AM EST Reply to CommentOh my gosh, Dan! Kirby Puckett did not "break down"!!!!
He hit .317 with 20 HRs and 112 RBIs in the strike-shortened 1994 season, then hit .314 with 23 and 99 in 1995, then woke up during spring training the next year with no vision in his eye due to glaucoma and was forced to retire.
Broke down? BROKE DOWN?!?!?!?!?!
TJ
January 4, 2012 at 1:55PM EST Reply to CommentI agree that it's not unreasonable to talk about season finales and at least partly discuss what that sets up for the next season.
And I think that does happen for movies that ask for it in the same way that a season finale (especially one with a cliffhanger) asks for it. For example, yes, at the end of Matrix 2, pretty much everyone left the theater going "Oh God, how are they possibly going to fix this mess in the third movie?"