The Bigger Picture: 'Mass Effect 3,' 'Mutant Turtles,' and The New Tyranny of the Fan-trum
What rights do consumers truly have when it comes to the content they digest?
No matter what ending you saw for 'Mass Effect 3,' chances are you walked away disappointed. Does that mean Bioware should change it?
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When you write about entertainment all day every day, you tend to get caught up in minutiae, and it leads to editorial decisions I would call questionable. When you're writing breathless headlines about Pez dispensers, you may be working too hard to find relevance in the irrelevant. Getting hung up on the micro often prevents us from focusing on the macro, but I'd like to take the opportunity to take a step back from time to time to examine 'The Bigger Picture.'
There have been two stories developing this week that fascinate me because of what they seem to suggest about the larger world of media and the way the audience is starting to truly drive the major choices being made.
Last night, I was thinking about these two stories, about the controversy surrounding the ending of "Mass Effect 3" and the reboot of "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," and I was watching reports stream in about the crowds turning out at theaters for the midnight screenings of "The Hunger Games," and it all seems to be further proof that we are in the midst of The Age Of Fan-Fiction.
There is a particular moment that comes during the development of these movies, sometimes once, sometimes continuously, when fandom hears something that they don't like or that worries them or that just plain doesn't match the image they have in their collective heads about the thing, and they freak out. They start petitions. They crowd message boards and comment sections and they take to Twitter and Facebook and they are vocal. They rant. They moan. They threaten. They swear off the thing forever, convinced it's been ruined. They speak of childhoods ruined and raped and worse. They employ overheated hyperbole. They prop up strawmen for arguments and examples.
They throw fan-trums.
That's my new all-purpose word for this moment. Because when one person throws a tantrum, it's unseemly, but it's hardly something to worry about. When one million people throw tantrums in unison, companies start getting worried calls from stockholders. Fantrums have the power to alter products before they start production or even after they're in stores. Fantrums can change casting. They can change endings. They can derail entire productions.
And the idea that we have reached a place where the outcry from a fan base is part of the production cycle of pretty much anything is kind of insane. That's what happens when you have an entertainment industry driven largely by fear, though. And there is little or no argument about what the primary motivator in most of the decisions made by major studios right now is. They are afraid. They have no idea why some things make money and no idea why some things fail. On paper, "Green Lantern" was going to pay for everyone's kids to go to college and buy them all houses and keep them working for a decade at the bare minimum. On paper, the "Eragon" movies would be a huge deal, battling each new "Lemony Snicket" movie for release dates, both of them going up against the ongoing Ben Affleck "Daredevil" series. Studios greenlight things that look like other things, things that you've already paid for at least once, because that gives them a fallback position when things do inevitably fail.
I'm sure if you ask fans why some things fail when adapted or rebooted, they'd tell you that they fail because they change important things. And while that can certainly be an issue when things are changed for no good reason, there have been plenty of successful films that have diverged sharply from whatever source originally inspired them. Fans conveniently forget that every single time there is a bit of news that deals with some still-hypothetical plot detail in a still-hypothetical film, and this week's furor over "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" was a great example.
First, Michael Bay speaks about the project and refers to the main characters as "aliens." As if scripted, there was an outcry from fandom the next day. "No, Michael Bay, you are Satan/Hitler/the worst person ever because you have raped/murdered/destroyed my childhood. If you make the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles into aliens, my life will have no meaning, and the world will cease to make any logical sense to me." Because every single moment is THE MOST IMPORTANT MOMENT EVER and every single detail is THE MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL EVER. There is no such thing as a moderate response from fandom. They never collectively go, "Oh, that's weird. I guess I'll wait and see how that fits into the movie that you haven't even started making yet before I get worked up about it one way or another." Nope. It's zero-to-fantrum in 2.2 seconds on the Internet these days. Every single time.
And I am constantly amazed at what people will get worked up over. I don't dismiss their right to like what they like, and I think it's great that there are people who are emotionally invested in the integrity of "Yogi Bear," but I don't personally get that invested in… well, in almost anything. I like a wide spectrum of things, and I certainly have opinions. Hell, if we're being honest, I probably made my career out of being good at inciting fantrums on an epic scale. The McG "Superman," or the Jon Peters "Sandman," or the original ending of "Terminator: Salvation"… these are certainly events where something I wrote served to at least partially light a match that eventually burned these things down. And while that's not really my goal when writing, I am aware that when you poke fandom, you can count on a certain sort of response.
So Bay says "aliens," everyone goes nuts. Then Kevin Eastman weighs in. Then Peter Laird weighs in. Twice. And now director Jonathan Liebesman has his say. And all of this is being turned into "news" by virtue of the fact that you've got fandom so riled that castmembers from the original live-action films are writing open letters to Michael Bay about having their own childhoods "raped." You've got actual working professionals buying into one of the most pathetic terms in fanboy culture, using it to describe something that you're not even sure is correct. Amazing. That's what happens when people start to believe that the people who make films and television shows and comic books and video games owe them something.
Let's be clear: they don't. They don't "owe" you anything. They make a product, and then you decide if you're going to pay for it. Since many of you think it's okay to download anything you want for free, even that second step isn't a guaranteed part of the process anymore. But it's a very simple transaction. They make. You consume. Only… that's not really true anymore, is it? I first noticed television shows actively responding to their vocal fanbases back when I was still new to the Internet. Shows like "The Simpsons" and "Mystery Science Theater 3000" and "The X-Files" were all early to understand just how much give and take there could be with an engaged online audience, and there are things in those shows that are direct responses to the online communities that erupted around them. These days, one of the ways you know a show is a genuine cultural hit is when there is an active, engaged fanbase online.
Even so, you are not actually owed anything beyond whatever entertainment they produced for you in the first place. Just because you like something, you do not automatically get a say in how that thing plays out. This is why I believe we're in an age where the fan-fiction mentality has become mainstreamed. In fan-fiction, you get to take someone else's creation and control it, and that's what people seem to want now.
With "Mass Effect 3," I understand why people are upset. When I was at SXSW, I was staying with a friend who was neck deep in the game the entire time I was there. I would walk through the room and see him engaged in space battle or running from Reapers or run-and-gunning his way through various crazy scenarios, and he seemed to be having a great time with it. I played "Mass Effect 2" after Comic-Con last year because I was given a free copy at the Legendary Pictures panel. I dug it, and I made sure to save my game because that's one of the big points of that series. You save your games from one to the next, so that decisions you made in the first hour of "Mass Effect" theoretically have an impact all the way up to the last hour of "Mass Effect 3." My Playstation tanked, unfortunately, so if I ever do play "ME3," I'd be starting from scratch, which almost defeats the point. People who played all three games were deeply invested in the version of Shep that they were playing. Shep could be a he or a she, straight or gay, and his or her relationships with each member of his crew were all based on choices you make. I was pleased with the version of Shepherd and his crew that I had saved by the end of "ME2," and I was looking forward to carrying all of that over to the new game.
The thing is, the ending of "ME3" has become hugely debated, and one part of that is because the choice which has been such a key part of the whole franchise seems to be rendered irrelevant by the closing act of the game, where you are suddenly forced onto rails that give you a very narrow set of options to choose from. In essence, all of the choice you made amount to nothing because every player ends up in the same place, forced to do the same thing, all in service of an ending that offers up no real answers. Far from it, actually. The ending has inspired debate, alternate theories about its meaning, and an outcry that either caught Bioware completely off-guard or played directly into what they wanted to have happen. It's hard to tell so far based on their response. They may or may not have DLC coming that explains the ending, they may or may not be changing it, and they may or may not have always planned to charge people extra to play the ending of their game. Because they haven't been clear about their plans, Bioware is letting speculation run rampant, and that's when a fantrum can reach hurricane force. You've got people writing editorials about why Bioware should change the ending, editorials about why they shouldn't, and other people writing editorials about how no matter what they do, gaming is now broken forever.
To some extent, fantrums are a best-case scenario for studios because it means people are talking about their products. But it's a fine line, and there comes a point where it can start to become intrusive, and I get the feeling we're still finding that line. In the end, the entire "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" thing seems to be a whole lot of hot air about absolutely nothing. If you follow the thread of how this all happened, it looks like Bay misspoke about something he's not terribly familiar with, and people took it as gospel. The "Mass Effect 3" story is still evolving, and we won't know how it plays out until Bioware either releases the DLC or officially weighs in on why they aren't changing anything. And beware of chiming in on this sort of thing, because sometimes you're operating on misinformation that is completely wrong, like anyone spreading the rumors about "The Dark Knight Rises" showing up at Comic-Con this year. Then again, hard facts have never really been required to kickstart a fantrum.
What do you think? Do fans get a say in how things are done? Are filmmakers or game designers the final arbiters of what happens in what they release? Are fantrums a force for good or for bad?
I look forward to the conversation.
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Next 97 CommentsAbacus Finch
March 23, 2012 at 9:08PM EST Reply to CommentI think this ties into a disturbing trend: everyone has to have an absolute opinion on everything. It's instant and it's binary and it's turned up to 11. Nuance, complexity, measured responses - these do not get reblogs or retweets. Everyone deserves validation and everyone knows what they're talking about. It gets to a point where the only way to really address it is to sound like a cranky old man lambasting the self-entitled youngsters but how else can one go about it? (You touched on torrenting, and I completely agree - in 99.9% of scenarios it's totally indefensible - but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.) My only hope is that it's a phase, or at least cyclical. Anything to make it stop.
CinemaPsycho Exactly. This is true of not just entertainment, but politics, religion and virtually every other subject under the sun. I'm so tired of people shoving their opinions in my face. I don't care who you vote for or what church you go to (or don't go to). Some things should be personal. You do what you want and I'll do what I want. Just SHUT UP about it.
March 24, 2012 at 2:43AM ESTDefRef I have long noticed the Manichean attitude of people for whom everything is binary Best Thing Evar!-Total Epic Fail/Rulz-Sux/luv-haet/1-0 with nothing in between. Nothing can be "OK" or "pretty good" or "have a few good bits, but wasn't that good overall", it's all "ONE!" or "ZERO!" (Subtlety these days is the ability to say "meh" at an in-between work.)
March 24, 2012 at 1:24PM ESTI used to write reviews for a major media site and they reactions from the kids (ave. reader age: 23 or so) were enlightening and depressing. They viewed everything as analogous to their school grading scale so to them, a 6/10 score was a fail. A 4/10 meant I "hated" something and I'd have to point them to my 1/10 reviews to help them understand what my hating something looked like. Conversely, woe to anyone who handed out a 10/10 because that was seen as a sign of error or being paid off because "10 equals perfection and even you mentioned a couple of off things." And boy they'd hold grudges or long memories over things they disagreed with. I was hearing, "You liked this/hated that and so your opinion on this current thing is worthless!", over two years after a particular review.
I think a major source of these fan-trums (great word, Drew!)is the general sense of grievance and entitlement that permeates society today. Everyone is given a participant trophy and has their grades inflated to a therapeutic range of A+ to B because the schools are afraid that if they give someone a C, their parents will sue and the kid will blow up the school. Everyone is told that their opinion is valid and the customer is always right and that rioting when you're unhappy is an acceptable means to obtain "justice" because someone thought Optimus Prime should have lips and flames.
The Internet just makes it easier for enraged people to demand compensation without actually getting off the couch and going to a Starbucks to throw a trash can through the window. Can you imagine if the Internet was around in the past when classic books and movies were being made? "OMG! How could Shakespeer have Romeo and Juliet die!!!1! Ill never reed another 1 of his buks!" or "WHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYY?!?!?!? Rhett and Scarlet should've stayed together!!! Imma gon cut Margret Michell!!1!!eleven!!" You know it's true.
I'm playing Mass Effect 3 right now (about 25 hours in) and have needed to avoid all the hoo-haw over the fan-trums about the ending. (e.g. I scrolled past Drew's grafs about it here.) A friend who blasted through the game in 35 hours over four nights sent me an email saying, "When you get to the end you'll be like this," and attached a GIF of the part in Cop Out that had Tracey Morgan saying "No!" over and over and over. The pervasive coverage of this kerfuffle has placed a cloud over my experience because while the critics have universally praised the conclusion, these entitled crybabies/justifiably outraged people seem to feel otherwise and after spending what will be about 130 hours across three games over a four year span. I've been saddened by the deaths of characters and felt bad when I've betrayed a past lover because I shagged someone else. There is an emotional connection to this story, but I'm no longer really having my own experience because of the cacophony of discontent that's bled into the mainstream (i.e. non-nerd) media.
wildphantom
March 23, 2012 at 9:11PM EST Reply to CommentMichael Bay knows exactly how this game works and knew exactly what he was doing with his Turtles comment. He's testing the waters. Seeing what the appetite is for this this movie, and if people didn't know there was a reboot on its way - they sure as hell do now. It's been a news story everywhere this week.
Fandom is manipulated constantly.
Yet it's power is undeniable. It's become integral to the making of properties with a built in audience to engage them in some form. Something I think only Peter Jackson and co have truly nailed. You don't read too much negativity surrounding anything to do with these Tolkien adaptations.
Logo Lou
March 23, 2012 at 9:11PM EST Reply to CommentYeah, but Michael Bay is indeed fucking horrible. The original ending of Terminator Salvation would have been much better than the one we got (better ending, still not a great film).
CinemaPsycho Not that I'm defending him, but Michael Bay had nothing to do with Terminator Salvation. That was McG. I know, pretty much the same guy...
March 24, 2012 at 2:45AM ESTLogo Lou I know that. I was just responding to two different points of Drew's article.
March 24, 2012 at 9:41AM ESTCinemaPsycho Sorry. My mistake.
March 25, 2012 at 11:31PM ESTIntellectual Ninja
March 23, 2012 at 9:13PM EST Reply to CommentDrew... I have been guilty of this.
In some cases, I've felt ashamed afterwards. But in others, I've felt my anger justified, as I continue to believe it is regarding Green Lantern, a film you and I both find disappointing because it was obvious from the word "go" that Greg Berlanti, a teen soap writer, had NO FRAKKING CLUE what made the character of Hal Jordan who he was.
Instead, Berlanti wrote Hal Jordan as Dawson Leery stand-in, living life in arrested development, a guy who quits being a Green Lantern after five minutes of training on Oa.
Hal Jordan NEVER QUITS ANYTHING.
Sigh.
Lucas never raped my childhood, he just disappoints me.
Michael Bay's Transformers, well, I actually loved the first and third ones, finding the second one unbearable to watch because you could tell the script as a second draft (writer's strike) and of course, the racism (which is something I am loathe to ever say, as too many people play a race card where it doesn't belong, but here, it's justified).
The TMNT thing, who cares.
But Green Lantern... if I ever met Greg Berlanti, it would pretty much be the opposite of The Chris Farley Show:
"Hey, remember that time you took the most fearless comic book character in all of DC, and made him a whiney, self-doubting, Dawson Leery douche bag? Remember that?"
Again... sigh.
I think we all have our things. We can all be stupid. The internet affords more of us to put our stupidity out there for consumption of others beyond our circle of family and friends, for good or for ill.
Is it stupid I care so much about Green Lantern? I would say yes, but it doesn't change the fact that it bothers me. It just does.
I enjoyed the changes Peter Jackson made with LOTR, or what Heath Ledger did with the Joker, or what Alfonso Curon did with HP3, still my favorite of the series, because each of those changes actually made a product that served character and did the original material proud, without besmirching it.
What Berlanti did to GL, did not serve the character well, at all. Those kinds of changes, changes made to artificially create "character arcs" or "drive tension" in a film are crass and unartistic, and are the kind of tricks used by untalented hacks like Berlanti who have no clue what they're doing with the material they've been entrusted.
When things like that happen, I think people can become justifiably angry... even if it is, in the end, kind of stupid. Emotional connection creates emotional response. We have emotional connections to these things, not logical or intellectual connections. Emotional.
Imagine if someone decided to remake a perfect film, a film you have a very deep connection to, a feel that has NO REASON to be remade... how would that make you feel? Would you be angry? Would you write that it made you feel angry?
Look at the way you and Sepinwall reacted when it was said The Rat was going to direct Midnight Run 2.
The reactions from the two of you were slightly more measured than the TMNT people, yes... but screaming, "Nooooooooooo!" on twitter is a slight fan-trem, isn't it?
We all have them, from time to time. It helps that if like you and me, that we realize our own emotional stupidity from time to time. :-)
Fastbak I read some interview with the writers "Green Lantern" saying they changed Hal Jordan from someone who has "no fear" to someone who can overcome great fear because the former meant he was "insane". I thought "No, someone who has no fear would be like a Chuck Yeager or a Mercury astronaut or any test pilot back in the Silver age when he was created." That was the one unique thing about the character and they took that away. Any damn film hero can overcome fear.
March 24, 2012 at 10:13AM ESTRockie Juarez @rockiewarantz
March 23, 2012 at 9:17PM EST Reply to CommentFans, if they really are that, need to calm down. Just ignore it if you hate it. This applies to everything.
Chris
March 23, 2012 at 9:21PM EST Reply to CommentStudios are trying to make money from the public. An extremely lazy way of guaranteeing a return is to reboot a franchise, as there is already an established fan base willing to part with their cash. Isn't it fair that the fan base should expect the director to have at least some knowledge of the source material? I have no interest in a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle film, but even I know that they aren't Teenage *Alien* Ninja Turtles. A cynic might think Bay doesn't have any interest in what he's making, as long something explodes.
MarcD
March 23, 2012 at 9:28PM EST Reply to CommentWhat do you think?
People need to get lives. Like you, I don't get worked up over much. I have a wife, kids, and jobs to do. This kind of stuff just reeks of people with too much time on their hands.
Do fans get a say in how things are done?
Meh....no. The biggest sucesses are when the filmakers honor the spirit of the source material. That can be a very obvious thing and fans know it.
Are filmmakers or game designers the final arbiters of what happens in what they release?
Um...they should be. Right?
Are fantrums a force for good or for bad?
Force for bad. I really miss being surprised and elated when a new movie/product grabbed my attention. Everything gets teased, taunted, and flaunted in our faces up until the day it's released and it's nausiating. No one can wait anymore and everyone has to be 'first'.
Get over it, get a life and DO something.
Kamfrenchie Fans pay for the product, and film makers and game dsigners are supposed to please their consumers and fans. In the case of Mass effct 3, they went aginst the very core, the very point of their product. They promised thing that weren't in the game in the end.
April 9, 2012 at 4:25PM ESTFans have every right to complain here. A game advertised as being all about choices altering the ending should be that. How are fans and customers upposed to trust the developper if they blatantly lie to teir fanbase?
They basicly made false dvertising... one could probably sue them for that.
SUre flm makers an game ddesigners can ignore the expectation of their fanbase, but then they won't make money...
Also quit using "get a life" towrd people you disagree with. What kind of argument is that? what you say has more weigh because you have a family and oother people aren't normal so theyre freaks ?
MetalMonkey250
March 23, 2012 at 9:36PM EST Reply to CommentI really hope this article gets around and starts to change the way fans react to stuff.
Right now this whole TMNT things seems to be following the same path of X-Men: First Class. I remember fans would CONSTANTLY bash that movie over and over claiming it would suck and then it released and it seemed all of fandom collectively shut there mouth and quietly said "Well I guess there was nothing to be worried about..."
I consider myself a member of fandom but I am constantly embarrassed by the way most fans react towards upcoming projects. There seems to be so much negativity almost like they want a project to fail almost as if they feed off of the negativity. God forbid a fan actually get excited for once.
The definition of a Fan is as follows: "a fanatical enthusiast or supporter, especially with regard to entertainment and sports" Can most people even call themselves fans anymore?
In my eyes this is how fandom should have reacted towards the new TMNT news: "The turtles as aliens? Well that's pretty different but hey, who knows, maybe it could be a fun new spin on the franchise."
That's almost exactly how I reacted. I did question the turtles being aliens but this could end up being a really interesting move. at this point its impossible to say because we have seen nothing from this movie.
Most fans don't act like fans anymore and it's really disheartening. I go to comicbookmovie.com a lot because they've always got some pretty great scoops but then I'' get pulled into the comments sections and it just kills me. There is hardly ever any excitement. Is this what being a Fan means? Criticizing everything that comes out and finding the worst in everything? We should be excited about all of these great projects coming out yet all we do is bash and criticize. When did being a fan mean we had to become so cynical?
As far as Mass Effect 3 goes, I'm still in the very begging and keep hearing how the end is just this abomination but that really hasn't affected my excitement to play the game. I loved ME1 and ME2 so I trust in BioWare.
Overall I honestly think Bay said it best when he said everyone needs to take a chill pill. I guess I'll end the longest comment I've ever posted on any site with one of my favorite quotes. It's from Conan's last show on the Tonight Show and I feel like, for the most part, this quote can really apply to Fandom in general:
"All I ask of you is one thing: please don't be cynical. I hate cynicism, it's my least favorite quality and it doesn't lead anywhere. Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get. But if you work really hard and you're kind, amazing things will happen."
Justin
March 23, 2012 at 9:39PM EST Reply to CommentWith a product that has been established, such as creating its own lore, the originals are usually always swallowed by the masses and loved because it may be something entirely unique and amazing, much like the first Mass Effect game and the first instance of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. As soon as a sequel is released or a different interpretation is put out there, the fans of the original work will ALWAYS be dismayed or disgruntled at things they hear about the development simply based off the fact that they are worried about the outcome. The journey justifies the end. It's a principle I live by.
In terms of Mass Effect, all three games, leading up to the end of ME3, could take you anywhere from 20-60 hours of in game play to complete and pile on top of that multiple play throughs to achieve the perfect run through or changing it up to play as a different sex or play as a renegade or paragon to see the different outcomes of the magnitude of options presented to you throughout. As the end game of ME3 forms, all of that function that made the games such hits in the first place ceases to be. I know when I was playing the end, during the talk with the catalyst, I was wondering why I couldn't interact with it to ask questions like I normally would be able to. THAT'S HOW MY SHEPARD ROLES. You are not given the choice, and the outcomes are streamlined and then, as you choose your streamlined outcome, the endings play out and.... boom. Done. Three games, worth a total of maybe 140 hours or more of gameplay for all of maybe what? Five minutes of an end cinematic and that's it? They spent more time introducing the volus and elcor species in the first game then they did on the damn ending! To sum it up, that is what's wrong with ME3's ending. Once fans have put enough hours and love into something, the art slowly becomes theirs as well. It becomes a shared endeavor between the creator and the consumer, much akin to how coke and pepsi have tried changing certain formulas over the years and the fans dictate whether or not it stays.
The teenage mutant ninja turtle thing can be summed up as such. LEAVE THE DAMN ORIGIN AS THEM BEING MUTANTS. Or, if they must be aliens, change the title or create something else that is unique and original that has aliens in it. Or should I just try to change Romeo and Juliet into them both actually being twins that were torn apart and then fall in love with each other and the entire problem with their love is their respective families trying to stop incest? Dumb idea right? Well, same with turning the turtles into aliens. JUST DON'T.
Justin Maybe I should clarify my position on ME3 a little more. MY main problem is that the end is very abrupt and streamlined, whereas basically any little aspect of either ME1, ME2, and ME3 are clearly layed out for you over hours of gameplay. It's almost as though there could be an entirely new game to explain what happened in the end. To say that what I played, and what others played, is THE END of Mass Effect and Shepard, is, in my opinion, a travesty to everything that Bioware spent years to develop. If that truly is THE END, then I believe that the writers just gave up at the end of writing it. By the way, I'm a writer, and I know how it feels towards the end of something to just slop some crap together and be done with it.
March 23, 2012 at 9:50PM ESTMetalMonkey250
March 23, 2012 at 9:57PM EST Reply to CommentHey Drew heres a great article by IGN that I think you should check out. I basically mirrors what you said and also says what I was trying to say a lot better.
http://comics.ign.com/articles/122/1221505p1.html
I'm hoping that with these articles coming out we start to see a change in Fandom and everyone goes back to actually being fans.
Justin We are fans. It's amazing how you guys see us as anything but fans. We are merely at a point where fans are done sitting on the sidelines while things are created in a way that may pervert the original concept. I in no way agree with this raping of childhood memories crap, but I do agree that things should be made in a way to service your fans/consumers otherwise we have wasted money and time on them.
March 23, 2012 at 10:19PM ESTJustin Another point is that, once you have hooked your consumer/fan, you must continue to gather their support lest you lose them, and their money, which all this entertainment business really cares about anymore. Otherwise, Downloadable content on the first day would be free.
March 23, 2012 at 10:21PM ESTJustin As an artist, you can not sit there and tell someone that you are doing something that is making you money purely for the ART. That is a complete lie, otherwise you would be making your art, in whatever form you make it in, for free. I've always felt that something ceases to be art once it sells. The art, in my view, is for a person's own enjoyment. You make something that YOU think is beautiful and inspiring, or haunting and blah blah blah. For yourself. As soon as you try to sell it, you are trying to incorporate other people's views on what beautiful, haunting, and extraordinary things are, which at best, is a nightmare to try to do. Keep it simple. If you want to make art, make it for yourself. If you want to sell a product, sell it as a product and do not call it art.
March 23, 2012 at 10:25PM ESTNEUR0M4NCER @ JUSTIN I think it's unfair to say that the 'entertainment business' only cares about money. Sure, there are some who care an awful lot about the money, but that's the same in any industry; the majority of the industry wants to entertain. Ask very member of the cast and crew on Green Lantern (for example), and I'm pretty sure you would find that they all just wanted to contribute to a great product, and most will have invested a significant amount of time, effort and skill to make it as good as they possibly can. 'Goog' is objective, so sometimes the product is not recieved as hoped, but you can't deny that most contributors to a game or film will have been concentrating *solely* on their art.
March 23, 2012 at 10:49PM EST
@ Justin
March 24, 2012 at 1:32AM ESTI'm sorry but the people who I am talking about do not act as fans. Fans support a franchise come hell or high water. You don't abandon a franchise at the first sign of trouble. Yes, you can questions some of the things going on but if you are a true diehard fan, you don't bitch and moan over a sentence a producer said about a movie for which we have seen nothing.
And It seems to me that you just contradicted yourself. First you say that the makers of film, games, etc. must cater to the fans but then you say that they should make the art for themselves and for there own personal enjoyment. I would have to say that it is a little bit of both. the creators should be making the story they want to make but they should never outright forget here fans. they should be making it so that they can enjoy it with other fans. But ultimately, you should always be making it for yourself because you can never please everyone. If you try to please everyone you will almost always fail.
And by the way, I'm not one those "you guys" you are referring to. I'm a fan just like you, only difference is I'm not as cynical as most fans are. I can look at something and not just focus on the bad but actually focus on the good. You brought up Green Lantern so I'll use that as an example. Along with most people I had the same doubts leading up to GL's release but I was still optimistic. Fans nowadays ar not optimistic. They seem programmed to hate something before it even comes out and sometimes that hatred can blind them even when something is not as bad as they claim (Not necessarily still talking about GL, just other films in general).
And finally, if you don't like sitting on the sidelines anymore why not get off the bench and get in the game? I certainly am.
Justin I am in the game. I'm writing the second script to a four part series that I will eventually animate... for myself. It will all eventually be put on youtube and facebook... for free. Want to know why? Because what I am making is art. You misunderstood me before. They are obviously making a PRODUCT, not art, in my view. Selling your art, in my view, turns it into a product that negates what you REALLY MADE IT FOR. Since you sold it, you are essentially making your art to sell it which effectively kills the entire concept of what art means, at least to me.
March 24, 2012 at 3:52AM ESTJustin I am of the mindset that making something for your personal enjoyment is art. That's what I was taught in elementary school and after. I made something with my hands FOR MY ENJOYMENT. Not to sell it. Once you do that, you are making a product. You become a business, or part of a business, and the entire point of a business is to make money to keep the business afloat and gain profits. That business area negates what art is at its core for me, which is that I can make whatever the hell I want to for my own personal enjoyment. People can like it or not, want to change things about it or not, want to buy it or not, I don't care. The entire point is that it was made by me for me and it is completely free of the problems inherent in making things for a profit. Once money changes hands, parts of the ownership changes hands as well. Get it?
March 24, 2012 at 3:57AM EST
Ok I see what you are saying but I feel like your statement is to broad. Do you really think every director makes movies just to make money? Think of it this way, directing feature films is EXTREMEMLY hard and stressful and you aren't guaranteed to make a ridiculous amount of movie every time. It's even worse for independent films. They spend forever raising money to make these films that everyone will see and will not always make back the money they spent. They do it because they love it and they want to tell stories. I feel like you think that because a ton of money is made in these industries that everyone just does it for the money when in actuality not many people on the crews of these films make a large amount. It's not fair to generalize a group of people like that.
March 24, 2012 at 9:52AM EST
And I really disagree on your view that once you sell something, it is no longer art. The type of art you make is easy enough to make that you can finance on your own, do it on your free time and be content enough for a small audience to see. The directors of feature films must make money if they want to continue to tell stories then they must seek there other films. They have to sell there art to make art
March 24, 2012 at 10:01AM ESTJustin I am in no way stating that making these forms of content is easy. All I'm stating is that, at their core, they are not art unless made for a person's own enjoyment and not made for profit. Once it is made for a profit, it is a product and thus looses the luster of ART. Unless... EVERYTHING IS ART? I mean, either call everything art or call them products. A person lower in the comments says that movies are a commercial form of art and not a product. I disagree completely. Take Mass Effect 3 for example. To him, he would probably consider ME3 commercial art. What about a can of Pepsi? Or the Automobile? The Cell Phone? The Keyboard? Chap-stick? A Fan? Incense?
March 25, 2012 at 4:11AM ESTAre you getting my point? Let me explain if you still don't. How long has pepsi been around? A quick google check states 1898 in the carolinas. It's 2012, so 1898 to 2012 equates to 114 years I think. Correct me if I'm wrong. So, for 114 years, pepsi-cola has been perfecting their image, their formula, their empire of soda. Would that not also be considered a form of commercial art? I HAVE NEVER HEARD IT UTTERED AS SUCH. Think about all the hours of research, labor, and testing that went into making pepsi what it is today. Then, in comparison, think about what it took to put the Mass Effect Trilogy into the public's hands. First game came out in 2007. I would bet that they were working on the story outlines and concepts around 2000 or so, maybe 2003 after Knights of the Old Republic came out. The last game came out this year, 2012. In comparison, that is maybe 12 years development, research, testing, and concept at most, against 114 years that pepsi has been at it. How does Mass Effect equate to "Commercial Art" and Pepsi is just a "Product?" Where is the dividing line here? I'm not seeing it.
Mark
March 23, 2012 at 11:09PM EST Reply to CommentThese corporate conglomerates DO owe me something, starting at least with the reimbursement of every movie ticket I have paid for in the last five years, with the exception of The Dark Knight. These monstrous entities continually churn out poorly scripted and badly executed black holes of my time, and wrap them in the guise of my favourite things. Either it's a flimsy idea they've needed to attach to an established concept, or else there is this pathological need to change everything into something new, just for the privilege of backslapping among producers and unoriginal writers. As you have touched upon, the fan backlash is all a part of the process and the entertainment industry knows this. Is it any coincidence that Community was taken off the air just as Chuck finished, and now it is miraculously back complete with a Subway product placement deal?? I understand that $$ are the driving force behind any industry, but it would nice to feel at least a little cared about as a consumer.
drew Then stop falling for the Pavlovian push-button nostalgia mentality. Don't just go because you recognize something from your childhood. "Yes, Gobots was a thing when I was young. Here is my $14." Be a smarter consumer. Exercise some discretion.
March 23, 2012 at 11:22PM ESTIf you don't pay for it, they'll stop making it. Take a long look in the mirror if you want to know why they keep churning out what you call crap.
drew If you truly hate every film you've seen in the last five years, you have chosen very very poorly in terms of what to see. As with any film year, the last five years have had both highs and lows. If all you go see are toy commercials disguised as franchise movies, no wonder you're unhappy.
March 23, 2012 at 11:23PM ESTCinemaPsycho Agreed with Drew on this. If you don't like Transformers, DON'T GO SEE TRANSFORMERS 2, 3, 4 AND 5. Why did people go see Ghost Rider 2 and then complain it was "worse than the first one?" DON'T GO. Support the kind of movies you want to see when they come out, and if nothing in theaters appeals to you, STAY HOME. I may not even go to the movies until April 13th (with the one-two punch of Cabin and Lockout) because I really don't care about any of the movies opening until then. I'm not 14 years old. Make movies I want to see and I will pay to see them. Stop paying to see crap and you won't have to complain about it.
March 24, 2012 at 2:55AM ESTCinemaPsycho I should stress that "the movies I don't care about" are the ones in wide release. There are several movies in limited release I would like to see, but there is a 99% chance they won't open in my area. I just don't mean to disparage ALL movies opening in the next few weeks...
March 24, 2012 at 3:01AM ESTLogo Lou And don't listen to critics who give good reviews to absolute shit like Transformers 3 like... oh, um, er... Drew did...
March 24, 2012 at 7:06PM ESTsupposer
March 23, 2012 at 11:25PM EST Reply to CommentI was disappointed by the ending of Mass Effect 3, both for the lack of choice that Drew mentioned and the lack of closure for most of the characters. I had spent hundreds of hours playing through the games, getting to know them, and I wanted to know what would happen to them at the end of it. Most of them I can't even say with certainty whether they lived or died. That's not really acceptable to my mind, and it's the same basic reason I never understood why people complained about the ending to the final LOTR movie being too long. You devote a tremendous amount of time to something, you don't just want a fade to black at the end of it. You want a full and proper resolution. Mass Effect 3 failed to give that, and to my mind, that is it's greatest sin. That said, ten minutes of disappointment shouldn't undermine 30 hours of genuine entertainment. And it is a video game. Story still comes in at a distant second to gameplay. So no, the games are not ruined as so many claim, although my desire to pick them up for a replay at some later date is substantially diminished.
neverthehero Blame Post-Modernism on this kind of story telling.
March 23, 2012 at 11:29PM ESTDefRef I finished ME3 after I posted my comment above and was also disappointed by the ending and after reading about the "alternative" endings and how the entire epic story was thrown out for something so slipshod and contradictory, I've crossed into a mixed disbelief and anger mood.
March 26, 2012 at 12:02PM ESTThe problem isn't that the last 10 minutes moots the previous 35 hours of gameplay of ME3, but that it takes the 120+ hours most people have put into the whole series over the past 4-1/2 years and tells you it amounted to nothing. All those choices, all those sacrifices, the way you played your character across three games and it all comes down to virtually identical negative ends with the slightly less terrible ending only coming if you make one specific choice after you've put in at least several hours playing the multi-player portion of the game. If you aren't interested in doing that or doing every little milk run you overhear, you end up with the worst ending. Whether you were a Paragon or Renegade didn't matter. Whether you saved every race or condemned some to extinction didn't really matter. NOTHING MATTERED IN THE END.
This isn't like The Abyss where you can turn the movie off when Bud disables the nuke and avoid the whack-ass Spielbergish coda. It's the end of an epic saga where you were told going in would all fit together and at the end BioWare decided to renege and toss something as silly as the philosophical claptrap of the Matrix sequels at you as a final, "Ha! We got your money! Suckers!" Sure, for the last time. Good luck selling the DLC for this insult.
neverthehero
March 23, 2012 at 11:26PM EST Reply to CommentThe first time I became aware of fans being outraged and demanded a different ending is with Neon Genesis Evangelion. This is almost 15-16 years ago now and to me it's just become more amplified because it's just so much easier to interact. I don't know if NGE should almost be a case study in this discussion but it is worth noting since something was done about the ending to the original series. The End Of Evangelion certainly was more action oriented but even fans were sorta upset with that ending as well.... I think something that creators need to do is stop the hyperbole with what they are making and stop interacting with the fans as much. Artist aren't just one of us and need to follow their own musings with minimum input from everyone.
Yes, NGE is a perfect case study. It's interesting how it is really only the original end that makes it a masterpiece. They are not the visuals and the robots but the meaning convey by incredible few last episodes that makes it one of the most incredible experience ever. It's a series that tried to open the eyes and minds of a universe of lonely otakus, it told the same fan base to experience life. Was it perceived as a betrayal? Of course. But it's creator was an otaku himself and that end is one of the most honest and truthfull things I've ever seen. If the plans for the end were made public we would have never seen the defining moment of a long journey and it would have turn NGE into its own negation. Said that, NGE was an original concept. With "franchise" movies, expectations should always be pretty low because the voice of the core creative team gets usually lost and watered by the numerous voices which dictates the commercial strategy, and fans are a good balancing force and maybe an outcry to start to make original movies again.
March 25, 2012 at 5:28AM ESTStormshadow4life
March 23, 2012 at 11:29PM EST Reply to CommentDrew, it is painfully obvious that you don't fully understand why we all hated the ME3 ending. Just visit any of the many articles such as this one:
http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right/
but without playing it yourself, you could never understand. And there has been quite a bit of evidence that the ending was done last minute and they had to scrap the original plan as well. I am all for celebrating art, but with Mass Effect 3, it's not art...if they had more time, and didn't have EA breathing down their neck to sell more DLC, I highly doubt that would be the ending we'd get.
Don't write about stuff you don't know about...it's irresponsible and I expect much better from you.
neverthehero after I play the game myself, I"ll read the article you linked but in defense of Drew, I don't think he is railing against the people that didn't like this ending but just using it as an example of fans speaking out on something.
March 23, 2012 at 11:33PM ESTStormshadow4life I'll be honest...I wrote that up after only skimming the article. My hotheadedness got the best of me. It does seem that Drew was not passing judgement on the Fans and ME3 (which would have been irresponsible), but merely watching the situation and how it played out. So I apologize.
March 23, 2012 at 11:39PM ESTHowever, it would have been a much more interesting article if he actually had a more vested interest in the situation.
P.S.
Believe me, you'd be pissed regardless of whether you carried your ME2 save over or if you went with the default. It's not as if your memory of ME2 was erased!
danj
March 23, 2012 at 11:40PM EST Reply to CommentThe problem with "fantrum" is that it treats things as if this phenomenon is unique to movie fans. But it's not... not even close. The political news cycle offers a new outrage everyday (Fox anyone?). And the sports world is no different ("LeBron signed with Miami!" "Jet fans hate Tebow!"). "Fantrums" don't say anything unique about movie culture... they just means movie geeks are like everyone else.
Intellectual Ninja For you to call out FoxNews but not MSNBC and CNN shows a complete lack of perspective.
March 24, 2012 at 1:23AM ESTJust because you may agree with MSNBC ideologically doesn't make them any better than FoxNews, in fact, they're just as bad, as is CNN.
But let's not turn this into a ideological flame war, I just want to make sure ALL those deserving all called into question, not just the ones with which you might disagree.
Danj First of all, who said I agree ideologically with MSNBC or CNN? I don't.. you literally just made that up out of your raging fanboy ass. Since it's clear that nothing is more important to you than defending the dignity of Fox News (you didn't even mention my actual point) let me reassure you that I picked them because their viewership is about four times the size of those other stations and therefore makes them by far the example most people would be familiar with. I guess that fact slipped the Ninja?
March 24, 2012 at 7:49AM ESTSecond of all, the idea that every single news source is "just as bad" is called a "false equivalency" and it's a logical fallacy... you'd think someone calling himself "Intellectual Ninja" would be smart enough to avoid employing childish fallacies. Figuring out who's right and who's wrong is part of life. Just deciding everyone is equally wrong and then turning off your brain isn't any kind of intellectualism. It's just lazy.
Finally, for you to read the comment I made above... that ALL ASPECTS OF OUR CULTURE are infected by this kind of self-entitled raging and interpret that as somehow exempting CNN and MSNBC makes you borederline illiterate. I mean dude... seriously... my whole point was that it's EVERYWHERE and your response is to accuse me of "bias"? Do you even know what the word "bias" means? Sigh.
This is why the fantrum is here to stay Drew... dumb,defensive, raging idiots who all think they're "Intellectual Ninjas".
Intellectual Ninja Let's get one thing out the way:
March 24, 2012 at 11:50PM ESTIntellectual Ninja was not a name I choose for me. It was given to me by the Wu Tang Clan, much as Childish Gambino was given to Donald Glover. It is my Wa Tang Name. And it's awesome.
Secondly, if you want to talk about READING COMPREHENSION, check your own, as I never once said where, or insinuated where, your ideological biases, if you have any, lie.
In fact, I used the qualifies "may" and "might" to ensure I didn't label you one way or another, as I hate labels myself.
I just find it funny that FoxNews is a popular whipping boy, especially in the media, when MSNBC and CNN are just as bad, it's just most in the media agree with even the craziest people on MSNBC about a lot of things, so they always get a pass, much like the many, many people out there who agree with the craziest FoxNews has to offer, and give them a pass, it's just their voices aren't given the kind of power (outside of insane ratings numbers) others may have.
Regardless... I mostly said what I said to see the response I would get, to see if you'd fly over "may" and "might," and jump right to the "don't you tell me what I believe!" and the accusatory screed that followed. :-)
coleglunz
March 23, 2012 at 11:46PM EST Reply to CommentWrite a comment...Drew,
I really love the site and the work you put in. I think you write about entertainment from a great point of view.
That being said, I was really looking forward to The JJ Abrams scripted Superman... the one that you "fan-trumed" over... the one that was derailed due to such a strong negative responce.
Due you feel you were just in "lighting the match" that burnt that specific project? Do you feel that this article, which I wholly agree with by the way, is hypocritical?
Once again, I am a fan of your writing.. keep it up. I'm just still sore over that specific project. Thanks.
drew It wasn't my article that killed that project. They were still full-speed-ahead after my piece went up. What killed it was McG's refusal to get on an airplane and go to Australia.
March 23, 2012 at 11:55PM ESTSo, yes, I was just one voice in that process. And I included mention of it here because I'm not a hypocrite... I acknowledge that I've been part of fantrums in the past.
This was written because the sense of entitlement on the part of consumers seems to grow exponentially each year now, and it's worth examining why and what it means.
coleglunz Thanks for the reply.
March 24, 2012 at 7:54AM ESTsupposer
March 24, 2012 at 12:08AM EST Reply to CommentI'm trying to sort out in my mind what exactly I think should be owed to consumers. I guess the standard argument against media companies owing us anything is that it's our choice what we spend our money on. We don't have to buy anything we don't want to buy. But I think it depends on the circumstances to some extent. I imagine that almost everyone who had played through Mass Effect 1 and 2 as I had was going to buy Mass Effect 3 no matter what. And I think Bioware knew that we had all essentially pre-pledged our money, so there was a sense that they owed us something. But then I don't think anyone at Bioware thought they were half-assing Mass Effect 3 to wring us out of a few more dollars. It was a good game that had some unfortunate story choices at the end. Nothing that Bioware did struck me as cynical or manipulative. And I guess that's what would piss me off. If I had the sense that they were selling the franchise off for all it was worth. And if they did do that, I know I would be expected to see through it and hang onto my money, but there are some franchises for which I have such lingering affection that I wouldn't be able to help myself. And in those cases, I'd like the sense that the people who are adding to the franchises are making a good faith effort to create the best product they can.
Noyer
March 24, 2012 at 1:21AM EST Reply to CommentTo some degree Drew, I do agree with you. Many times, the way in which fan anger is EXPRESSED is rather immature and sad, and at the end of the day, it is filmmakers who need to make the films, not fans. After all, it is their jobs. And without question, there is a certain level of truth to the idea that fans don’t know what they want.
HOWEVER, when you state that the fan reaction is built around the idea of being “owed” something, you are simplifying down something that is bit more complex. As you note, studios make films based on pre-existing properties because, in theory, they already have proven successful in another area, achieving an audience and building up a fan based. It is that fan base which studios hope to tap, both for their cash and, in this day and age, to help them drum up business and excitement with a wider audience by getting them onboard. And while I hate to be cynical about this, the simple truth is that studios are not buying properties, but are trying to buy an already existing audience. More than that, they are trying to buy FANS themselves to act as walking, talking ads for their films, to go out in the public sphere and spread the word. How else are people supposed to read viral marketing, be it for THE HUNGER GAMES or for THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, or why studios start sending their stars to comic cons in an attempt to gain fan blessing? In asking/making fans active participants in the selling of a film, the very relationship between fans, filmmakers and studios becomes far more blurred than being simply one of the producer and consumer.
Now, putting aside any possible Marxist analysis of this situation for a moment, I am going to say that in theory, this relationship is “fine.” But in asking fans to actively participate in the marketing of the film, studios and filmmakers have opened themselves up to having to address fan concerns. To sit there and say “well, we want fans onboard to help us sell the film, but we don’t want to listen to them” is asking them for a level of trust that the finished fill will be good. Ok, fair enough. But as in any relationship, trust is something that is earned. Take Gary Ross and THE HUNGER GAMES right now: Ross has a track record of films which have EARNED him trust. Likewise, Christopher Nolan has EARNED the trust from fans, enough that most are willing to sit back and wait to see what he’ll do with the changes he makes. Even the criticisms of Bane’s voice in the preview are mild compared to what another filmmaker might have received in the same situation, all because Nolan has earned a level of trust.
Michael Bay, though? Let’s just put away the Transformers films for a moment (not enough of a fan to care or judge), and just look at his body of work as just that, his body of work. So far, he has made misogynistic, racist garbage every single time, save for perhaps THE ROCK, and that one is iffy at best. Never mind that when he has made films which were “intended” for younger viewers, he went on to make films that were more vapid, racist, and misogynistic then any one of this other films save BAD BOYS II. Then let’s take a look at the remakes which Bay and his production company have been involved in: A NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET; THE HITCHER, THE TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE. Each and every single one of these films are failures which misunderstand the original material, and fail to replace it with something of value in its own right.
So why the heck should TMNT fans trust Bay at all when he starts making radical changes to their favourite characters? And I know you don’t care for the source material at all Drew, and I get that. But let me put it too you this way: if Bay had been put in charge of the big Muppet’s comeback film, and suddenly decided to announce that Kermit was no longer a frog, but a three headed CGI dog, what would your reaction be? I don’t mean how you would express your reaction, just how would you feel about it?
And once again, you just know that in about a year’s time Bay and company are going to roll around to comic con, parade around their stars, claim to be big fans, and then ask fans to go along and spread the word about the film, to advertise it. And if they hate what they see, chances are they will express it in a stupid manner involving horrible statements about what Bay did to their childhoods, but you know what? The studios will have brought it upon themselves by trying to buy their way to an audience.
Vern
March 24, 2012 at 3:07AM EST Reply to CommentI like your word fantrum, and I agree with your argument. I think you weaken it though by using the terminology "consumers" and "content." If movies are really just "content" to stuff into a tube and shoot down our throats, if they're just a consumer product, then maybe they DO owe us something. If your yogurt is contaminated they recall it and give you a replacement. If nobody likes New Coke they come out with Classic Coke. If you write a letter and complain about your Doritos they'll send you free coupons.
I don't think movies are "content," I think they are a commercial form of art and that's why I agree with you. But I think by using that corporate/advertising lingo you support that attitude. It's like not even movie lovers consider movies to be art anymore. They get them for a buck from the vending machine in the Safeway parking lot where they used to get Safeway Select off-brand soda for a quarter. They say that John Carter didn't do well because it wasn't a recognized enough "property," accidentally agreeing with the idea that all movies have to be remakes and sequels and "properties" that everybody knows.
As far as the Mutant Turtles thing, I think I'm too old to come across anybody that actually cares about that shit, so if people are actually angry about it I haven't seen that. But speaking for the rest of us I think that was just a story that caught on because it fit so well with Bay's hard-earned reputation. He bought up all my favorite horror movies and remade them with muscle-men, took a stupid '80s toy commercial cartoon and figured out a way to make it into something completely different but somehow even stupider and crasser, etc. So when that guy does a remake and apparently changes it from what's in the title (aliens instead of mutant turtles) it's a funny "it figures" story and that's why it was turned into a bunch of sensationalized stories (two of which appear in the "YOU MIGHT ALSO LIKE" above where I'm typing write now).
Justin Vern, I completely agree with your valuation of "if movies are content." I, however, disagree with you about your view that movies are not content. I see your points though, which are very good. I just can't get past the fact that once you sell something that you make, it effectively turns into a product, or in other words, content.
March 24, 2012 at 4:11AM ESTJames
March 24, 2012 at 4:23AM EST Reply to Comment"No matter what ending you saw for 'Mass Effect 3,' chances are you walked away disappointed. Does that mean Bioware should change it?"
Actually this is the opinion of a vocal Minority. Mass Effect 3 sold 3.5 million copies and about 2% of them are aware of the hubb bub. For what it's worth I enjoyed the ending because I have the ability to imagine beyond what is shown/told. Don't be like the people who promoted the LOST finale as a complete failure because it wasn't what they expected/wanted.
Sean
March 24, 2012 at 4:47AM EST Reply to CommentThe worst thing about the fantrum is that it can stop an idea before it gets out of the gates.
An early memory of the fantrum I have, was when there was some Lord of the Rings spoiler footage of Arwen battling at Helm's Deep and the fan base went ape because it wasn't canon and demanded Peter Jackson change it, which he did.
In retrospect, it seems like a missed opportunity. As much as I loved Lord of the Rings, it's not really kind to it's female characters. It would have been nice to have given Arwen some character development, because she comes off as a complete dud in the books as well as the movies.
A more recent example would be the David O. Russell adaptation of the Uncharted video games. Here, we had an Academy Award nominated filmmaker, who was in the process of reuniting Robert Deniro and Joe Pesci in supporting roles, but the whole concept had to be canned because fans were so up in arms about Russell circling Mark Wahlberg as the lead.
It must be very frustrating to develop a project nowadays. Creators are creatively castrated by fans before they even get the wheels on a project turning.
Sometimes a fan doesn't know what's good for them until they're willing to step outside their fanaticism and take a chance on an artists vision.
VLaszlo Whoa, whoa, whoa. A missed opportunity? As a fan of the books long before the films, even I can admit some of the best scenes in Two Towers are the added appendices-esque moments with Arwen in Rivendell - but her fighting at Helm's Deep was a terrible idea and Jackson realized it. She needed more screentime than Tolkien ever wrote for her, sure, but the warrior-princess cliche' was not the answer.
March 24, 2012 at 11:15AM ESTI don't know Uncharted well, but I heard plenty from my brother who played through them all. I know it had it's own story and David O. Russell vocally had no respect for it. A 'deNiro - Pesci' 'family crime empire' sounds like a movie that everyone has seen a dozen times and would probably be good again ---- but it had nothing to do with the material. So go ahead, just don't call it 'Uncharted'.
Also, Academy Awards (or noms) don't make even a good filmmaker right for source material they like parts of but don't fully comprehend. Just this month, Disney John Carter proved that.
Your last sentence rings true, but that's still only sometimes.
If the creators can't stand the heat, maybe they should develop an original idea instead of standing on someone elses shoulders.
Sean See Vlaszlo, you've already fallen into the trap.
March 24, 2012 at 12:20PM ESTHow do you know Arwen's addition at Helm's Deep would have been "a terrible idea?" Did you see how Jackson integrated her into the scene? No. None of us did. We never even got to that point. And considering a lot of the changes Jackson made to the source material served the films for the better, who's to say this wouldn't also?
And so what if Russell's Uncharted adaptation "has nothing to do with the source material?" The Godfather and Bladerunner have tenuous links to their source material as well, and, last time I checked, they turned out pretty good.
If the internet had existed when those films had been made, we may have never gotten the films we did, the public outcry over changes to the source material would have forced Francis Coppala and Ridley Scott to alter their original vision of the films.
Vern Good point, Sean. I always felt like it was a "fantrum" that killed George Miller doing a Justice League movie. Yeah, they oughta do separate movies for each character, and Armie Hammer can't play Batman because we never heard of him and we don't like his name. Instead of a George Miller super hero epic we got fuckin Green Lantern. Great job, internet. You really nailed that one.
March 25, 2012 at 2:42AM ESTDoes anyone believe Michael Keaton and the director of Pee-wee's Big Adventure could've gotten past the internet if it had been around for the first Batman movie?
Sean Haha! Michael Keaton as Batman directed by the guy who did Pee-Wee's Big Adventure is the perfect example of a film that would not paste muster in today's fantrum era, Vern.
March 25, 2012 at 9:47AM ESTAnd it would be a shame if that film didn't exist, considering Burton's Batman is a stylistic marvel, and, for my money, Michael Keaton was the best Batman to ever don the cape.
Sean Sorry, I meant "past muster," not "paste muster;" although, "paste muster" sounds pretty cool too.
March 25, 2012 at 8:24PM ESTVLaszlo It's not a trap so much as we disagree. Of course we don't know precisely how each of these alternate timelines would have worked out, but my tastes tell me that particular example was a terrible idea while yours say it was a worthy one. I think Fellowship is far and away the best because there's a palpable reverence for the material, that fear of not-screwing-up when nobody knew how the films would be recieved. After the wild success was clear, that reverence gradually evaporated as Jackson allowed his personality to seep in and catastrophically restructured the narrative of the next two films. There were good and bad calls made throughout, but in my opinion the films work best the closer they stayed to the original works. The one exception I make is for those Arwen flashbacks - and they work in no small part because they let her be a strong character without having to leap into battle as a cliche' warrior princess.
March 26, 2012 at 7:57PM ESTMy point is that the fan-trum can have value when it protects an original source from the ignorance of a studio or the ego of a filmmaker. They don't always, and I won't argue that sometimes they are harmful, but I think there is some good to be found in fans having a voice. It's valuable even for no other reason than to let filmmakers know that people care how beloved stories are treated, and that at least the court of internet hysterics and name-calling will hold them accountable. That's a good fear for anyone to have while entrusted with the reigns of a work with a built-in fanbase.
Finally, I agree with you both about 1989 Batman and Justice League. Great counter-examples.
Sean The real problem, Vlaszlo, is that there are no guarantees. Just look at last summer:
March 26, 2012 at 9:47PM ESTOn paper, Green Lantern was the ultimate fan service film. It had the perfect actor (Ryan Reynolds) for the role, the perfect director (Martin Campbell) for the film, and was based on Geoff Johns' iconic story from the canon.
Yet Green Lantern was an abysmal failure.
X-men: First Class, however, was hounded by fans from the get go: What's with the outfits? They're way too young. It's directed by the guy that did Stardust, really? Who the hell is this Fassbender guy?
Yet X-men: First Class was easily the best comic book film of last year.
Where you see the fantrum as a threat to hang over a studio and creator's head to police beloved material, Vlaszlo, I see the fantrum as blind fear that puts studios and creators in a stranglehold and forces them to make very safe, uninspired decisions.
Eyes
March 24, 2012 at 6:48AM EST Reply to CommentBAY: We're plundering another franchise because we have no idea how to do anything original that works. And we're turning the protagonists into aliens because nothing in it makes a lick of sense to me. And when has my judgement ever been wrong?
FANDOM: Only most of the time.
LIEBESMAN: Fear not, fans, we will never do anything to reduce your valuable participation in our revenue stream. Because frankly, you're the only people who will pay to see this stuff - apart from the kids, of course. We don't draw a hard and fast line when we sell to the otaku market. And did I mention that the Creator Of The Property is on board?
EASTMAN: Gotta eat, kids!
LemuelG
March 24, 2012 at 8:10AM EST Reply to CommentSo what is the basic difference of the examples you describe and the public outcry when a major action sequel (think Die Hard 4 or Expendables 2) is announced to be PG-13 instead of R? I mean, that public outcry seems to have prompted Mr. Stallone to have his film be R, counter to his previous statements. So, the question is, where do we draw the line between a justified expression of opinion because the filmmaker might be doing something in a suboptimal way, and completely insane protests against even the smallest details?
Daniel
March 24, 2012 at 9:04AM EST Reply to CommentSome very interesting comments here! Good discussion!
My 2 cents are in regard to the 'x raped my childhood' kind of thinking. There is this story I always find very instructive that Raymond Chandler was being interviewed one day and the reporter asked him about his reaction to how the movies were ruining his books in the adaptation process. His answer was simply to point at his bookshelf where his books were all standing, pristine, and to say 'But my books are still all here!'
It's a valuable lesson but I will admit I myself have trouble remembering it sometimes, whenever I'm forced to confront what is being callled 'Star Wars' these days. Although that situation is slightly more complicated by the fact that we're not talking about an unfortunate adaptation but about a supposed continuation (as Drew mentioned recently, prequels are sequels too).
Yes, the original texts are still there (mostly - Han shoots first, damnit!) but sometimes it is very hard to avoid seing how the continuations change the original concepts in insufferable ways (dumbing-down).
Then again, as Drew mentioned, we are not being owed anything (if anything it is the other way around)! As mature individuals we should be able to take it or leave it, if we don't like it. The problem here is that the internet is a zone that encourages a lot of us to behave in incredibly childish ways since it's free of 'parental oversight' of any kind.
But just as the entertainment industry needs to find ways to make the freedom of the web work for them instead of trying to destroy it we need to rediscover the fact that living with freedom, any kind of freedom, requires integrity and responsibility - a self-chosen code of conduct - because there is nobody else there to stop you from destroying yourself. Or at least, from turning yourself into a whiny, needy, thouroughly unattractive excuse for a human being.
Aaron
March 24, 2012 at 9:26AM EST Reply to CommentI'm conserned. I saw all three transformers movies, and I'd rather that I hadn't. I have seen interviews where either mr bay had out right said, or it was plainly obviously had no idea about the history of transformers. This seems to have translated into movies that make no sense, have no clear plot development or any relevance to a pre established universe. So when I hear that mr bay is going to direct tmnt I hope that he treats these characters with more respect than the transformers he has left broken all over the floor.
Mike How many people were really attached to the pre-existing Transformers mythology? I ask not because I was a fan of the movies (what I saw of them was pretty awful and probably exceeded my lifetime tolerance for Shia Labeouf), but because I played with the toys in my youth and I have no memory of the mythology built around them. I didn't feel like Michael Bay was being entrusted with some sacred duty to do right by the material. Frankly, I didn't think there was much material to do right by. Are there others who differ from me on this?
March 24, 2012 at 11:09AM ESTTravis
March 24, 2012 at 10:43AM EST Reply to CommentDrew, what is more lame, throwing a fan-trum or writing a long piece de-crying the very practice that you engage in? You were incredulous in your Superman review...while not going over the top, you made it clear how stupid it wass. Why can you pre-judge a movie but others can't?
This is typical of you, since you do have a huge ego and believe that since you worked in a video store and now have this web space that you are some authority on all things movies and fan-dom.
How about this. Fuck You.
I have every right to complain about a shoddy product. For those duped into seeing Green Lantern they have every right to howl and bitch about it. Just like those complaining about the new IPad being to hot, they can complain about "mutant" turtles now being "aliens".
As consumers we all have the right to complain. Who are you to judge the merits of others complaints?
Mike Isn't it enough to say you disagree with him? Lots of people have already done so on this message board, and most have done so respectfully. If you had anything meaningful to say in your post, it was drowned out by your personal attack against Drew. There's no need for that.
March 24, 2012 at 10:57AM ESTscottish_punk You seem to be a part of the problem, on top of being an insult to the name Travis. Fact.
March 25, 2012 at 1:55PM ESTCinemaPsycho I think his point was that you should actually wait until the product is made and released to complain about it. Of course you should complain if you see a bad movie. No one's arguing against that. But pre-judging something before it's even made doesn't help the process in any way.
March 25, 2012 at 11:29PM ESTHaving said that, I really don't care one way or another about a Ninja Turtles movie.
VLaszlo
March 24, 2012 at 10:52AM EST Reply to CommentI don't care for the absolutism, but I think it's good that the stewards of beloved characters are forced to contend with an empowered fanbase.
In many cases the fans are more familiar and passionate about the material than the makers of these reboots, adaptations, sequels, etc. I don't feel 'they' owe me anything, but they do owe everything to the material they are trying to cash in on. I love that a vocal fanbase can have real power to influence the properties they care about, even if they have to scream obscene hyperbole to make it happen.
My favorite recent example is the righteous fan-harassment of the 'Uncharted' film. I don't know the game well, but when you hear the arguments against what David O. Russell wanted to do, stopping him really does seem like artistic integrity won out. I've seen enough of my own favorite stories butchered to smile about that.
I find there's usually at least one articulate, reasoned argument for every 5-20 wailing whiners, but they are saying the same thing at different maturity levels.
Hyperbole is only the [admittedly irritating/out-of-control] medium, the message is 'respect the material'.
Brian
March 24, 2012 at 11:27AM EST Reply to CommentInsightful as always, Drew. I'm not much of a video game guy, so that part of the article doesn't really apply, but I could definitely qualify as a fanboy based on the spectrum of my interests. That said, I've always been of the wait-and-see mindset before trashing something back to the stone-age. Just because I have my ideas of what I think something should be like doesn't mean someone else's interpretation is automatically wrong. Then again, I'm the guy people call weird because I still buy my dvd's/blu-rays legally. If it's Tuesday and there's something being released I want to own, I go to Future Shop (I'm from Toronto) or Best Buy, and pull that bad boy off the shelf and pay my hard-earned money for it. Friends ask me "why?" and I tell them it's so the industry will know that particular film has real support from fans, and will hopefully entice them the make a sequel (if warranted) or another film of a similar genre. Otherwise... you just get shit like what we've been getting.
Ed Pegg Jr
March 24, 2012 at 11:31AM EST Reply to CommentSnakes on a plane was improved by the fantrums.
One option is to be really, really good and talented. Peter Jackson, Josh Whedon and Chris Nolan are trusted with big properties, without much outcry (now). Christopher McCulloch (Jackson Publick) is trusted with his Venture Brothers series, because his crew is usually several steps ahead of their entire fandom. VB has the theme of failure -- and in that world, who do people trust? They trust the people that actually succeed, instead of the egotistical blowhards. That doesn't mean that Rusty and the Monarch don't get a lot of action and press -- they do. But with their track record, you don't want them messing around with something of importance.
I have the luxury of being able to ignore bad movies. Due to a great local library, I've been able to see all but 2 of the IMDB Top 250. Unlike movie critics, I don't have to watch the bad movies, and I'm very glad of that. The warnings of critics seem to have a greater impact these days -- when a movie has a low score on Rotton T, or later on IMDB, the pitiful cries of anguish from critics that truly suffered are heard more often now.
Michael Bay seems to be trying to do a Thelma and Louise with Teenage Ninja Mutant Turtles. He could have used other properties like Adolescent Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters, or Naive Inter-Dimensional Commando Koalas. There is no need for needless Battleshipsification of trusted brands, and fans are right -- nay, obligated -- to complain strongly.
Ed
March 24, 2012 at 1:19PM EST Reply to CommentI can't believe there's still people out there who give a shit about the development of movies like TMNT etc. Those are corporate products that will have 10,000 cooks in the kitchen that are bound to be fucking terrible. Just accept it and move on!!!! There's so much more in the world of film now - more stuff than ever before really. And how can you get older and have any taste for this stuff after you've experienced life? Those movies offer me absolutely nothing! Unless it's like the absolute best incarnation of this kind of movie, which pretty much never happens anymore. Or it's 3D and I smoke my body weight in pot beforehand.
In a weird way I think this kind of fandom/internet interest perpetuates head-scratching adaptations like BATTLESHIP.
It doesn't really matter though. That system is clearly dying. I'm not an optimist about most things - the world really scares me and I cope with it only because I like post-apocalyptic settings! But we're really entering/already living in such an exciting time for film. To be a film fan that cares about like...the green lantern during this period seems like being the guy on the eve of the 70s who is following the development of DR. DOOLITTLE really closely. Or like a dude who is really into music who is like "ooohhhh I wonder who the next manufactured boy band will be!!". And you'll be able to get your genre fix from original properties created by people unhampered by the stockholders worried about maximizing property value.
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