Cannes Film Festival 2013

Could 'Community' star Donald Glover play Spider-Man?

An internet meme sets off a heated debate on race in pop culture

<p>Oh, wait, you're right... how could I have ever thought that Donald Glover could pull off playing a high-school aged nerd?</p>

Oh, wait, you're right... how could I have ever thought that Donald Glover could pull off playing a high-school aged nerd?

Credit: Sundance Film Festival

Here's my first question for you:  why is Peter Parker white?

My answer to that question would be "Because the comic book was published in the early '60s, and there was no way Marvel was going to make their main character anything BUT white at that point in publishing history."

Aside from that, there's no inherent story or thematic reason for Peter Parker to be white.  None at all.  But you wouldn't know that looking at the reaction this weekend online to what started as a bit of a goof and has now blown up into a typhoon-force internet meme that is forcing an interesting and always-explosive conversation.

Donald Glover, who you used to be able to follow on Twitter under his name @donglover (and, yes, he knows exactly how else you can read that), has been building a following this year with his work on the show "Community." He's also a member of the group DERRICK Comedy which I wrote about last week, and he's an active member of LA's stand-up comedy community, a former writer for "30 Rock," and the star of "Mystery Team," which just got a DVD release.  I'd say his audience is still a cult audience, but a passionate and growing one, which is probably why he changed the Twitter name to @MrDonaldGlover.

Over the weekend, as people were publishing more stories speculating about the casting process on Sony's "Spider-Man" reboot, Don started a campaign via Twitter, using a simple hashtag.  Actually, here's how it started on May 30 at 2:45 PM:

RT wittyallusion : @io9 wrote a post about casting a non-white #Spiderman for the reboot. some1 suggested @MrDonaldGloverI agree with this

Okay.  So iO9 started this with an article that simply asked why Spider-Man needs to be white.  It's a fair point, especially in the year 2010.  Donald's response a minute later was simple:

You guys. Let's make this happen. #donald4spiderman

Like many people his age, Donald was raised on pop culture, and Spider-Man is one of those great Everyman characters that many of us felt kinship to as we were growing up.  Marvel's entire company was built on a simple narrative innovation, the idea of giving superheroes real-life problems that made them feel like normal people who just happened to have amazing powers.  Peter Parker was a perfect example of that, a teenage kid who was given these amazing abilities that did absolutely nothing to help him solve all the problems that regular teenagers deal with every day.  Parker's love life tortured him more than the supervillains he had to fight, and dealing with hiding the truth about himself from his loved ones gave him angst you could measure on a Richter scale.

So now imagine you're a comic fan, you've grown up reading about Peter Parker and identifying with him, you've started to build a Hollywood career for yourself, and suddenly they're casting Spider-Man, and you're the right age and in good shape.   You figure a little grass-roots campaign might actually get you in the room for an audition, and honestly... you can't ask for more than that, right?

Well, fast-foward a few days, and now look where we are.  Look around at the message boards and comment sections under all the articles out there that have detailed the situation.  Many of those articles were half-kidding, half-curious, and unfortunately, the response from fandom is exactly as bad as I feared it might be.  Over the decade plus that I was at Ain't It Cool, I learned some very uncomfortable truths about fandom, and a situation like this just highlights those things once again.  One of the core truths about many fanboys is that they have a very limited imagination, which seems odd when you consider that they are drawn to works of fiction that are all about imagination.  People get hung up on the strangest things when it comes to new versions of the things they like, and when you start talking about casting, and especially when race becomes a factor in that conversation, things can get ugly.  And fast.

Here's what I personally consider important about Peter Parker:  he's a science nerd, he has trouble with girls, he is great with a camera, he loves his Aunt May and his Uncle Ben, and he is a wise-ass in a major way.  Beyond that, I don't really care what color his skin is.  The Sam Raimi "Spider-Man" films featured Tobey Maguire in the role, and he got certain aspects of Parker right, but not all of them.  In fact, I'd argue that all three of Raimi's films really missed the boat on the "wise-ass" side of Parker, which I consider WAY more important than whether or not he's white.  I've always loved the notion of Peter using his sense of humor to anger and distract villains in fights, and certain writers have nailed that.  The Bendis run on "Ultimate Spider-Man" frequently made me laugh out loud, and there was one particular encounter with The Kingpin where I couldn't stop laughing after I read it.  Even with Raimi and his various screenwriters totally missing that key element of Parker's personality, I was able to enjoy the films as interpretations of "Spider-Man," knowing full well that any adaptation is going to be filtered through the sensibility of whoever makes it, and that no adaptation will ever do every single thing that I, as a fan of that character, would want done.

So we've had three films now where Spider-Man is a humorless mope who looks perpetually ready to cry.  Great.  If casting Donald Glover means that we get a Spider-Man who is as comfortable cracking a joke as spinning a web, then I'll gladly accept a non-white Peter Parker and never look back.

However, just the idea of a black actor WANTING to play Spider-Man... and keep in mind, he hasn't auditioned or spoken to Sony or done anything official except say he sure would love a chance at the role... has made the fanboy nation crazy, and I wonder how many of them even fully understand the implications of what they write when they rail against the idea.  It's a big deal to call somebody a racist, and it's not a word I throw around lightly.  I think there are many people who are opposed to the notion of Donald Glover playing the role because he doesn't fit their interpretation of the character, and I can see that.  Casting an icon like this is never easy.  But there's a difference between knowing Donald's work, considering that work, and deciding that you'd rather see someone else play the part and flat-out rejecting the notion that any black man can EVER play the role, and that's the position that many people have taken in this debate.

And that, in my opinion, is absolutely racist.

We're not talking about a historical figure.  We're not talking about a character whose race is essential to the story being told.  We're talking about an audience surrogate, someone who is supposed to be us, and while I see a white face when I look in the mirror, I consider "us" in the year 2010 to be an inclusive word that reflect the post-Obama reality of our country.  I wrote recently about the reasons I miss Jim Henson, and the subtle but effective way he tore down notions of racial inequality on "Sesame Street" is one of the things about him that I treasure.  Seems like that lesson didn't really sink in for everyone, though.  I want to believe that "us" reflects a multi-cultural multi-racial reality.  I have a South American wife and I'm raising my kids (one who looks very gringo, one who looks very Latino) bilingual, aware of their heritage on both sides. And as they get older, I want them to actively be aware of what it means to come from two cultures.  I am doing my part for the Great American Melting Pot, and my whole life, I have struggled with the way society pushes us to think about race versus the way I want to think about it.

Part of that struggle comes from being a pop culture addict.  The default hero in most fiction is a white, heterosexual male.  That's just the way it works.  And as a culture, we are all expected to identify with the white heterosexual male.  We are all supposed to be able to see ourselves in that character.  It is lazy and arrogant and presumptuous, but it's also been the default for decades, and Hollywood certainly doesn't seem to be in any hurry to change it.  To be fair, though, I don't think it's a uniquely American issue.  For the past few years, I've been dealing with international financing on a film I wrote, and the main character has been incredibly difficult to cast.  He's an ex pro-wrestler, and we always knew we needed someone of a certain size and heft.  At one point, we got Michael Clarke Duncan to say yes to the role, and as far as we were concerned, that was a completely victory.  I think he's exactly right for the role physically, but beyond that, he has a vulnerability that would fill the character out in the right way.  Unfortunately, we were told that the financiers wouldn't accept him in the part because... and I quote... "there's no international audience for black actors."

That, by the way, is the real reason Donald Glover won't be playing Spider-Man.

It won't be because a bunch of vocal fanboys have trouble seeing past one ingrained visual image of a character, but because there's no way Sony bets their mega-franchise on a black face when they use the exact same grotesque international money charts and graphs as everyone else.  Next time someone tells you America's got problems with race, you can point out that at least in this country, we seem to have room for actors of many ethnic and racial backgrounds, while internationally (Europe is evidently the worst about this), that is not true at all.

Trying to have this conversation on Twitter today, I was amazed at some of the responses I got, and from people I consider very smart and decent and not remotely bigoted.  Over and over, I was asked if it would be okay to cast someone like Tom Cruise as Black Panther or Sam Worthington as Luke Cage.  That argument just makes me sad.  Those characters were created as a direct reaction to the overwhelming ocean of white faces in the world of comic books, and while I think there's something vaguely condescending and slimy about throwing the world "Black" in front of a character name, I can see why it was important for the characters to exist when they were first published.  Their race is a central part of who they are, why they fight, and how they were written.  The issue of Captain America came up again, too, and I'm one of the people who had trouble understanding the talk of Will Smith for that role when that was a rumor last year.  Again... it's a story issue.  Captain America was created as a symbol in WWII to lead American soldiers, and he had to be the ideal for the time period in which he was created.  In WWII, there was no way they were going to make him African-American.  No way at all.  Even Jesse Owens, with his amazing victory at the Berlin Olympics, failed to convert many of the most entrenched racists of the day.  Certain characters exist to explore ideas of race or to offer up a counterpoint to the traditionally white faces under those masks, and denying that or altering that seems to me to be willfully obtuse.

But with a character like Spider-Man (who, I should point out, is covered head to toe when he's in costume, meaning in much of the film he would be red and blue just like he always is), race has never been an issue.  I can't think of a single key Spider-Man story that would be affected by casting a black actor.  There's nothing about the character that you have have to fundamentally alter.  Peter Parker would still be Peter Parker, defined by the same problems.  Several people have countered, "Well, if it doesn't matter, then why do it?  It's just political correctness."  No... not really.  The truth is, there's a big talent pool out there, and excluding talented actors because of a default decision made 40 years ago feels wrong to me.

Before this conversation began, I didn't really have much opinion about Spider-Man and the casting.  I hear they're getting closer and closer to choosing Josh Hutcherson, and he's even evidently shot some tests for the film.  I'm not sure if they've had anyone else in front of the camera yet, but with Hutcherson, they've already seen him in action, an important part of making the choice.  Hutcherson's fine.  He's a decent actor, and he might be able to pull off wise-ass in a way that Maguire never could.  But is he the absolute best actor for the part?

Until Sony is willing to consider ALL actors for the part... and until fandom gets over their preoccupations with surface characteristics... we won't know, because the playing field remains uneven.  In cases where race doesn't add or subtract anything from a character, it is my sincere wish that casting directors and studios would simply look past skin color and judge talent.  It won't happen on this film, and I guarantee we're all talking about this more than the studio ever will, but that's still what I wish.

In a perfect world, every conversation about Glover as Spider-Man would be focused on his work, his talent, his ability to handle an action scene, and whether or not Sony would consider him "bankable."  Instead, here we are in the year 2010, seriously debating whether or not the color on the outside of someone has anything whatsoever to do with the character within.  Seems like a real shame to me.

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Next 125 Comments
  • Default-avatar

    keisha

    "There's no international audience for black actors." This, to me, is one of the most relevant - and saddest - points in this discussion.

    Thank you for pointing it out.

    June 2, 2010 at 2:42AM EST Reply to Comment


  • Great, thought provoking article Drew. One of your best. The only problem I'd have with Donald playing Spider-Man is that I think he's a little too old for what they're going for. The whole movie's supposed to take place in high school and I'm sick of watching actors in their late twenties or early thirties play high schoolers.

    June 2, 2010 at 2:48AM EST Reply to Comment
    • All_purpose_icon_talkback_profile

      drew The age thing makes sense. And honestly... without an audition, who knows if Donald's right for it? The point is that even the hypothetical riled people up, and that rabid response freaks me out.

      June 2, 2010 at 3:06AM EST
    • Picture00099_talkback_profile

      Joel-Neumann yeah but if you have an actor under 18 you have limited time to work with them for day and night shoots and parents must be with you at all times. it much more easy and cheaper to cast someone in there 20's

      June 2, 2010 at 4:44AM EST
    • I agree that whoever they cast as Spider-Man/Peter Parker will probably have to be over 18 just because of the time constraints. But Donald is 26. I think they can cast a little younger than that.

      June 2, 2010 at 11:23AM EST
  • Millersam_talkback_profile

    Sam Can

    This conversation is pure fanboy online masturbation. It never ceases to prove amusing at how important fandom feels its opinions matter in the world of Hollywood and to the greater film audience at large. Every time fandom gets over-the-top hot for a movie or something like this concerning casting (even if generated by an actor using the internet) it is a clear sign that the championed film will have a difficult time finding an audience (or meeting the overblown expectations) or how the "controversial" casting was all just hubris playing in an echo chamber. I wish Don Glover would just write his own superhero character and pull a George Lucas (who couldn't get the rights to Flash Gordon) and go make a cool ORIGINAL film for all the reasons Drew mentions and go sell it and hopefully make a zillion bucks while giving Hollywood the finger.

    June 2, 2010 at 2:53AM EST Reply to Comment
    • Stubby1_talkback_profile

      cadfile Fanboys do matter the studio because if you piss them off your film is toast. Studios hate bad word of mouth and negative fanboy chatter.

      Fanboys are the ones who will see a film the first weekend when the studio wants a winner.

      So the fanboys get treated like a toddler who won't eat their dinner.

      June 2, 2010 at 9:55AM EST
    • Millersam_talkback_profile

      Sam Can Cadfile, I guess that's why SNAKES ON A PLANE and KICK-ASS were huge hits.

      Fanboys are only important if a film can reach out to a larger audience. If it can't reach beyond the fanboys it's dead as a Hollywood Hit goes. Get over yourself. ;-)

      June 4, 2010 at 10:57PM EST
  • Default-avatar

    Joe

    "There's no international audience for black actors."
    Nonsense.

    If there isn't a market for black actors outside the U.S. what can possibly explain the international box office returns of Will Smiths movies?

    His movies make much more money OUTSIDE the US than in it.

    June 2, 2010 at 2:54AM EST Reply to Comment
    • Will Smith is absolutely the exception. Not the rule.

      June 2, 2010 at 3:14AM EST
    • Default-avatar

      keisha I must agree that Will Smith has excellent international box office returns. But why is he the only African American actor to do so?

      As a person who lives OUTSIDE the US (but is currently enjoying the last of my vacation in it), I can honestly say that, at least for the side of my world, we are still (subconsciously) dictated by the idea that the color of ones skin makes you superior or inferior to another. Through some odd twist, this makes the rest of the world very incapable of relating to most Black actors.

      It's a damn shame.

      June 2, 2010 at 3:37AM EST
    • Default-avatar

      joel Will Smith is the only black actor under 40 with any box office clout outside the US and one of the only black actors (period) with any box office clout IN the US. Look at the roster of movies this Summer and the awards-fodder next Fall and Winter, prove me wrong. You won't.

      There are a handful or actors who manage strong careers in comedy or dramatic roles, but there's only one guy Hollywood banks serious bucks on to topline a mainstream blockbuster.

      You could simply google this, as there have been many articles online detailing this problem in the last couple years, or you could simply spout off with your lack of knowledge on the subject.

      June 2, 2010 at 10:58AM EST
    • Default-avatar

      Crestfallen These days, how many actors/actresses are dependably bankable internationally? Very few. This trend has been noted and discussed a lot lately.

      The number of "big name" box office draws has dwindled significantly. In the 80-90s, Mel Gibson, Tom Hanks, Julia Roberts, et al., were, more often than not, predictably brought in audiences. It's been that way throughout much of the history of cinema.

      Now days, having a big name star in your film does not guarantee big name success, domestically or internationally: George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, etc.

      It's this changing dynamic that has prompted studios to shift towards lesser and unknown actors for roles that would have formerly been offered to the big names. Why pay the massive salaries when they don't insure big returns.

      So all this to say, Will Smith is one of the very few actors who has any predictable box office clout.

      June 2, 2010 at 4:11PM EST
    • Millersam_talkback_profile

      Sam Can Yeah, Will Smith was HUGE at playing the part of James West in THE WILD WILD WEST. What a hit that was! And probably the greatest example of why Hollywood will NOT cast a character differently than how that character was originally presented. No matter what you think, Hollywood uses box office failures to guide its current casting. Can you see the new movie version the A TEAM with a gruff big white actor playing Mr. T and Hannibal played by a black actor? I can but...the studios would never go for it.

      June 4, 2010 at 11:10PM EST
  • Default-avatar

    TJ

    I don't particularly like this trend of casting black actors in character roles that have been historically depicted as white. Most recent example being Sam L. Jackson as Nick Fury in Iron Man 2. I understand that many of these characters were created in the lily white days of comics, but instead of changing the race of the character, why not portray an already established black character? Or make a NEW character who is black and portray him?

    June 2, 2010 at 2:54AM EST Reply to Comment
    • Default-avatar

      KBPCarl Nick Fury is actually black in the Marvel Ultimate universe. Not only is he black, but he is also drawn with Jackson as his inspiration. The movie isn't based on any one Iron Man comic, let alone universe. I don't hear you complaining about how young Sam Rockwell is in the movie. Justin Hammer has always been an older gentleman in the comic.

      June 2, 2010 at 3:09AM EST
    • Default-avatar

      Crow3711 normally i dont do this but.....idiot.

      June 2, 2010 at 7:30AM EST
  • Default-avatar

    Andrew

    There's two things that I think would stop him - His delivery of humour that has always kind of been a bit too ... deliberate? I don't know if that's the right word for it, but it works for him - but I would have thought of Spidey as more off the cuff, than Donald's delivery in Mystery Team or Community.

    And secondly, he seems a little too old for the role, if they want to give the character a few films in High School - which is what they should be wanting to do if they want to reboot the franchise at all.

    I'd still love to see more of him in something though.

    June 2, 2010 at 2:55AM EST Reply to Comment


  • Glad you decided to step into the ring on this one. I'm glad the issue's come up and I'm glad it's being discussed. And I'm VERY glad that you were far more discerning in tossing around the "racist" label than some of your colleagues/hordes of the Internet Armchair QBs.

    To Joe/Comment #4 - are you being purposely obtuse? Will Smith is an anomaly of epic proportions.

    June 2, 2010 at 3:02AM EST Reply to Comment
  • Default-avatar

    flialf

    Gee Drew, I thought, according to you, Logan Lerman was playing Spider-Man? What happened to that?

    Hutcherson is a dreadful, dreadful choice. He may be a good actor, but his look and persona are absolutely all wrong for the role. And as such, he is invariably going to be cast.

    Why couldn't Drew have been right in April about Lerman? Now there's a great choice. And we would have avoided this silly debate.

    June 2, 2010 at 3:17AM EST Reply to Comment
    • All_purpose_icon_talkback_profile

      drew What happened is Sony dragged their feet for months, and Lerman's reps signed him to a role that's actually rolling this year. Just that simple.

      June 2, 2010 at 3:33AM EST
    • Default-avatar

      flialf Is it really the fault of Lerman's reps? The Spider-Man role is so colossal that I have a hard time believing they would've just passed over it if they had a chance, especially for a Paul Anderson movie (either Paul Anderson, frankly). More than likely, it was Sony that did the passing, a completely inexplicable decision, especially considering the eventual, unimpressive shortlist of five.

      Besides, Anderson's The Three Musketeers will finish shooting by November at the latest. If we look at the previous Spider-Man movies' shooting schedules, and adjust for release dates, then this new one won't even start filming until well into 2011 - March or so. Lerman could easily still do it if they wanted him to (Chris Hemsworth went from Red Dawn, Oct.-Dec 2009, to filming Thor in Jan. 2010 - and this wouldn't even be as tight a schedule as that - not nearly).

      June 2, 2010 at 4:26AM EST
    • All_purpose_icon_talkback_profile

      drew I'm not saying he passed on the role. I'm just saying that "Spider-Man" turned out to be a long process, and in the meantime, there were sure things being offered. His reps made the call that a role being offered now is better than a maybe in the future, and they jumped.

      June 2, 2010 at 1:30PM EST
    • Default-avatar

      spideyfan @flialf agree that if Logan Lerman was cast then there would be no debate about this and fans would for the most part be happy with the choice. Hutcherson while a good actor just doesn't give off a Parker vibe and is a tad too short and hefty for a USM parker. Latest word on the web is that Jamie Bell is a new sony fave.

      with Lerman's latest interview for the MTV Movie Awards he appears to be really distancing himself from the project and some sources claim that Sony just took forever to give him the go ahead that the guy couldn't pass up two sure projects. While I have plenty of misgivings re £ Musketeers, it has a good cast and is a major Summit release but more than Musketeers I suspect Lerman really wants to do the Perks of Being a Wallflower movie. He's always been more comfortable in indie films. Just a shame that perhaps the best candidate to play a teen Peter Parker with the biting sense of humor has slipped thru Sony and Marc Webb's hands

      June 7, 2010 at 2:49PM EST
  • Default-avatar

    Pete

    There isnt an international market for black actors..

    but when you put an actor in a spiderman outfit, that wont matter much. People go for the heroics, not the color of the person's skin in regards to superheroes.

    June 2, 2010 at 3:20AM EST Reply to Comment


  • I think the biggest problem with a black actor in a major-studio Spider-Man would be that the end result will either be a white-washed black Spidey, or worse, a cheap attempt to "blacken" him up. You only need to see the American version of "Death at a Funeral" for proof. Donald playing Peter like any of the black kids I knew growing up in a 50/50 neighborhood? Sure. But Aunt May threatening the switch (this happened with Glover's character on Community)? No thanks. Hollywood can't be trusted to take race out of the equation.

    June 2, 2010 at 3:29AM EST Reply to Comment
    • Default-avatar

      Atreides Excellent observation, they would most likely turn it into stereotypical "black" tripe instead of just a normal kid.

      June 4, 2010 at 9:49AM EST
  • Default-avatar

    Sloan

    @ Joe: Will Smith was known as an musician/Rapper long before his foray into acting. That in itself helped him early on, but if you notice the African American male actors that do well internationally are usually in comic or action roles. Serious dramatic films with black actors that are the leads don't seem to do well in any market place. You do have exceptions I Am Legend for one but how did say Book of Eli do overseas? Lets say that the international marketplace prefers non-ethnic leads in their films okay? Why are people of color always the bridesmaid but never the bride? We can be sidekicks , flunkies, victims but rarely heros. Its a sad thing , there are extremely talented men and especially women of color that don't work, pigeon-holed because of their skin color. Internationally, domestic or both its wrong and damn small-minded. And why should roles be written or made for one race or sex? The world is pretty big and very diverse why can't we see this reflected in our favorite pastime. Drew, THANK YOU for speaking up .

    June 2, 2010 at 4:05AM EST Reply to Comment
  • Picture00099_talkback_profile

    Joel-Neumann

    im all for it! this a reboot right? REBOOT IT LIKE A MOTHERF@#KER!!!!. i really think they should give him an audition and even a test shot, see how well he fits the spidy suit!!

    June 2, 2010 at 4:24AM EST Reply to Comment


  • This is absolutely the best, most fleshed-out and thoughtful article I've seen since the whole stir began. Thank you, Drew, for taking the time to really pick this thing apart for the right reasons.

    June 2, 2010 at 5:03AM EST Reply to Comment


  • In many ways, this is like Ang Lee's Life of Pi. that film will quite probably never see the light of day because no Hollywood studio wants to invest in a story with an Indian boy as the protagonist. Ang Lee said the same thing to some journos.

    And I agree with the stance you have taken on this issue, even though the odds of seeing Don Glover or any black actor play Peter Parker are astronomical, to say the least.

    June 2, 2010 at 5:45AM EST Reply to Comment
  • Default-avatar

    doug

    Hutcherson is a dreadful choice though. Jamie Bell would be much better.I think the role should go to the best actor but it might not go down well with the viewing public if a black actor was cast. The franchise needs to make money and pissing off the comic book geeks right from the get go is not a wise move. History associates the role with a white actor and it is just too much to ask for people to accept a black actor for political correctness. I feel the same way about the casting for Last Airbender and Prince of Persia where the casting was wrong.

    June 2, 2010 at 5:48AM EST Reply to Comment
    • Default-avatar

      keisha a) Question: What is the percentage of the over all number of viewers of any movie related to comic books were comic book "geeks"? I highly doubt that the first few Spider-Man flicks only made money from said "geeks."

      b) And why shouldn't we ask people to go beyond what is already established? Society can not progress if we fear offending people by asking them to look beyond what is status quo.

      c) The point of the argument, I think, is that there are many minority actors that are potentially being ignored in the casting process simply because Spider-Man has been traditionally white. It is not about political correctness. It's about fairness, to working actors who deserve auditions, to the audience who deserve a guy who can bring it and to the the character of Spider- Man itself. Doesn't old Peter Parker deserve the best actor around?

      June 2, 2010 at 12:28PM EST
  • Default-avatar

    reno

    Glover is more Peter Parker than anyone I've seen mentioned for the role, and more than anyone that has played Parker on film/TV previously. He also makes it clear that this is a new version and not a continuation of the old franchise with new actors and not an extended rehash of the first half of Raimi's first Spider-Man. As a long time Spidey fan, Marc Webb is more of a problem than Glover for me.

    June 2, 2010 at 6:27AM EST Reply to Comment
  • Default-avatar

    KAPOW

    I dunno Drew, the black spiderman ruined the last movie.

    On a more serious note, im completely open to the idea. But these things always come around, campaign for a black James Bond, Dr Who, Captain America... etc. As long as its not done just to tick some PC boxes, but then go for it. M C Duncan was an inspired choice for kingpin, he was just so RIGHT for the role (shame the movie just wasnt a bit better) so if its done to make the movie better, then all casting should be open. If the kid has the 'tude, the wit and the charm then skin colour matters not.

    June 2, 2010 at 6:27AM EST Reply to Comment
  • Default-avatar

    SocGradStudent

    Thanks for this article, it's great. Ive been following this and giving it a lot of thought and tho I disagree with some of your points, the "international audience" was one I hadn't thought of. I remember hearing about Tyler Perry trying to expand his franchise(?) to Europe and being told it wouldn't work. Or did that have more to do with the black *christian* elements of his movies? Either way its true that racial inequality is a bit worse there than it is in the US and I'm not surprised that studios would hesitate.

    I did want to point out though that not one person anywhere that I've seen has suggested making Peter Parker an Asian teen (or Native American or Indian or whatever). There's something ironic about this anti-racism movement for Spiderman that argues for a Black or Latino actor because thats what people argue fits in with the urban upbringing of the character. There are still some limitations to the way people are talking about race in the context of superheroes.

    Someone also mentioned not wanting a "white-washed" black Spiderman character, which I thought was interesting because I assumed the initial suggestion for Donald Glover was based on his "black nerd" stand-up routine, where he talks about growing up with middle-class white kids. I saw one white guy on facebook comment something like "I'd normally be against this as a comic purist but I've seen your stand-up and we see eye-to-eye. So if you were spiderman, it'd be just like ME doin it." Just my opinion, but I think class has a LOT to do with why Donald Glover is such a popular choice.

    The most interesting argument I've run across that was against changing Spiderman's race was a fanboy I know asking why change the race of established characters when they should be making movies based on really GOOD existing comics with black characters, like Black Panther and Power Man. He said "doing this will basically give a message that black superheroes aren't worthy of a movie unless they have first been established as being white." I disagree with the logic but wouldn't call him racist for it.

    BTW, I mean no offense by any of this - I'm not outside any of it for sure. Just some observations, subject to criticism like everyone else. Thanks again for the article :)

    June 2, 2010 at 6:30AM EST Reply to Comment
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      PJ You mean no offense, yet you state that "its true that racial inequality is a bit worse there than it is in the US" in regards to Europe. If it wouldnt be too much trouble could you link to the statistics which make that fact "True"?

      June 2, 2010 at 6:53AM EST
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      Mike I'm with you, man. I thinks it's interesting that people are still on the black-white angle and are not even talking about other races within the discussion. Talk about racist. When someone uses "black" does that stand for Asian, Indian, Native American, Latino, etc?

      I mean, if we're going to debate it, why must it just be about black vs. white?

      June 2, 2010 at 11:07AM EST
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      keisha The invisibility of Asian Americans, Latino Americans and Native Americans in discussions that relate to minorities has always been a problem. I don't know if it's so much about racism as it is about ignorance.

      June 2, 2010 at 12:31PM EST
    • All_purpose_icon_talkback_profile

      drew Oh, it came up last night. Aaron Yoo's name came up on Twitter. As I said, I'm all about finding the right actor, no matter who they are.

      June 2, 2010 at 1:08PM EST
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      SocGrad @Drew: I don't think one person suggesting one actor on Twitter exactly solves the issue, but I might be nitpicking the original iO9 article more than anything else - its nothing personal against you. I think the point is that even in trying to be anti-racist, people are still constrained by these paradigms of white vs. black, or more importantly black=urban (poverty/violence/etc). I saw one person on facebook react with "Spiderman as a gangster movie. YES!". I think in the "post-Obama era," that kind of ignorance isn't as common as it used to be, but I DONT think we're past the point where an Asian actor would have to do martial arts at SOME point in an action film. I'm not criticizing anyone in particular (like I said, I'm not outside of anything), just pointing out that studios have a reciprocal relationship with the way we think about race as a society.

      @PJ: You're right, that's a gross generalization that's not exactly falsifiable. We'd have to go in circles of what is "racism" and what is "worse". Culture can't really be summed up in a single graph or statistic. But to get you started, I recommend looking up the "Macpherson Report", which is about institutionalized racism in the UK. There's also a highly-cited 1995 article by Lincoln Quillian called "Prejudice as a Response to Perceived Group Threat: Population Composition and Anti-Immigrant and Racial Prejudice in Europe" that is quite comprehensive. Or if you want to prove me wrong, you can always download the Eurobarometer dataset for free at icpsr.org and run your own regressions. I'll come back if I find any more accessible, simple stats/graphs.

      @Mike: I'm a woman btw ;) but thanks!

      June 2, 2010 at 3:35PM EST
  • Uga_vii_talkback_profile

    BugKiller

    Where to start, Drew?

    With your false statement of facts as truth, like how race relations in the US are worse than in Europe?

    Or your typical left-wing tactic of labeling people as racist who aren't as "enlightened" or as "progressive" a thinker as yourself?

    I'll start and end with the latter. I'll leave the former to others, as I don't have the time for that debate.

    Why is it that the most "progressive" people I know (or in your case, don't know) are always the most intolerant I know?

    So quick to label people with slanderous names like "racist" or "intolerant" or "homophobe?"

    How about THIS you big jerk?

    I know it's unscientific, but unlike your claims I'm admitting that, but let's say for argument's sake, the majority of fanboys are caucasian.

    Go to DragonCon or ComiCon. See any brothers walking around dressed like Spock or Hobbits? Didn't think so.

    What makes this an issue for the fanboys isn't a lack of imagination, Drew. It's about who and what they IDENTIFY with.

    What makes Peter Parker so important to fanboys? They IDENTIFY with him. His problems. His foibles. His using humor to get over on bullies to dumb to understand sarcastic wit. He IS them. But the ultimate wish-fullfillment of what they want to be.

    So in identifying so closely with Peter Parker, they see him as themselves. And they're white. He's white on the page. They're NOT identifying with Luke Cage, because they aren't meant to. Inner-city black fanboys identify with Luke Cage. That's why he was written the way he was written and made a black character on the page.

    But they IDENTIFY with Parker. He's the geeky, lower-middle class white kid who is always picked on in school who loves science and who has the hots for the girl next door who is out of his league.

    In that way, his ETHNICITY (stop saying race, it's scientifically WRONG, we are all ONE race, the HUMAN RACE) is absolutely paramount, to those fan boys who identify with him.

    So Drew, instead of labeling these fanboys as racist, which is the typical liberal thing to do, how about you put down your left-wing flag for a second and see things through THEIR eyes. Not YOUR fanboy eyes, but the eyes of those who do care about this kind of crap.

    You picked the one super-hero where you claim race doesn't matter, but it kinda does.

    Now the majority of the DC characters or say, the X-Men, race doesn't matter.

    I'd love to see Will Smith as Clark Kent. Why can't Batman be black? Cyclops could certainly be someone like Nick Cannon in the new X-Men movie, and why not?

    But Peter Parker? No, Drew. You're WRONG. He's the quintessential lower-middle class white kid that all of these fanboys (who are white) identify with. And yeah, it does matter. And saying that doesn't make me racist. And wanting that doesn't make them racist.

    It makes you kinda an a-hole (in this circumstance) though.

    I advise that you get down off your high horse before you fall and hurt yourself.

    June 2, 2010 at 7:56AM EST Reply to Comment
    • Uga_vii_talkback_profile

      BugKiller This is a fun excercise, though.

      Pick the comic book character where a different ethnicity WOULD work.

      The WHOLE DC Pantheon, pretty much. They're all these specific "Greek God" archetypes.

      Every single one of them can be made into a black character, and the story doesn't really skip a beat.

      The color of their skin is definitely inconsequential.

      The X-Men at Marvel were always stand-ins for race-relations, so accept maybe Wolverine (not many black Canadians, not any whose family were super rich Canadian land owners in the 1870s), all of the X-Men could be black.

      Luke Cage could NOT be white. Tony Stark could be black. Steve Rogers could NOT be black, because the US Government would not make a black man Captain America in the 1940s.

      And here's one that'll shock your mind. Peter Parker could be black.

      I know, right? What I was arguing above was that it was wrong to label those people who are against him being black as racist. I'm sick of that word getting thrown around be people who use it as a tool of fear. Don't agree with me? You're a racist! Don't believe what I believe? You're a racist!

      But yeah, Peter Parker could be black. Depends on what part of Queens he lives in, I guess. :-)

      June 2, 2010 at 8:05AM EST
    • All_purpose_icon_talkback_profile

      drew "Where to start, Drew?"

      How about with a willful and near-complete misinterpretation of what I wrote?

      "With your false statement of facts as truth, like how race relations in the US are worse than in Europe?"

      Didn't say that. Not once in my piece. You can go back and look, and you won't find that statement in the article.

      What I said is that in terms of being able to finance a film with a black lead, there's absolutely no European money to do so. International financing, a key part of any independent production these days, uses formulas based on how much money each market can expect to see based on the elements in the film, and if you try to cast a black lead in your film, you will NOT get European money.

      You may not like that statement, but that is the truth. That's based on not just my experience, but the mutual experience of everyone I know working in the indie world.

      "Or your typical left-wing tactic of labeling people as racist who aren't as "enlightened" or as "progressive" a thinker as yourself?"

      Again... didn't say that. I said the idea of excluding someone from consideration for a role that is not built around race simply because of the color of their skin is racist. I called an idea racist because it IS racist. It's pretty much the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of racism.

      "I know it's unscientific, but unlike your claims I'm admitting that, but let's say for argument's sake, the majority of fanboys are caucasian.

      Go to DragonCon or ComiCon. See any brothers walking around dressed like Spock or Hobbits? Didn't think so."

      You'd be surprised. Obviously.

      "What makes this an issue for the fanboys isn't a lack of imagination, Drew. It's about who and what they IDENTIFY with.

      What makes Peter Parker so important to fanboys? They IDENTIFY with him. His problems. His foibles. His using humor to get over on bullies to dumb to understand sarcastic wit. He IS them. But the ultimate wish-fullfillment of what they want to be."

      Right. Keep going.

      "So in identifying so closely with Peter Parker, they see him as themselves. And they're white. He's white on the page. They're NOT identifying with Luke Cage, because they aren't meant to. Inner-city black fanboys identify with Luke Cage. That's why he was written the way he was written and made a black character on the page."

      Here's where you lose me, and where you start to sound like that thing you keep saying you're not.

      I know plenty of fans of different races and different backgrounds. One of the great benefits of having worked online for over a decade is that I've been lucky enough to plug into a network of film fans from around the world. And they all read the same things and identify with them. They all watch the same things and identify with them.

      And since Donald Glover is where this conversation began, let's be specific. He's a fan. He's someone who has been reading Spider-Man his whole life. As a fan. And he identified with Peter Parker.

      And it wasn't because he was white.

      So explain that. Oh, you just did, and evidently, Donald needs to go read Luke Cage comics, since he's not ALLOWED to identify with Spider-Man...

      ... right?

      "But they IDENTIFY with Parker. He's the geeky, lower-middle class white kid who is always picked on in school who loves science and who has the hots for the girl next door who is out of his league."

      Drop the word "white" from that paragraph, and we agree.

      "In that way, his ETHNICITY (stop saying race, it's scientifically WRONG, we are all ONE race, the HUMAN RACE) is absolutely paramount, to those fan boys who identify with him."

      No. It's not. It's not the reason I identify with Parker. It's not the thing that defines him. You're literally making the exact opposite point from what I made, and I find your argument grotesque, frankly.

      "So Drew, instead of labeling these fanboys as racist, which is the typical liberal thing to do, how about you put down your left-wing flag for a second and see things through THEIR eyes. Not YOUR fanboy eyes, but the eyes of those who do care about this kind of crap."

      Oh, I see. So I should only see it through exclusionary, narrow-minded eyes, and then I'll understand how wrong I was.

      Thank god you're here to correct me.

      "You picked the one super-hero where you claim race doesn't matter, but it kinda does."

      Nope. It doesn't. You haven't made a case yet for why he HAS to be white. You just seem to think "because he has been in the past" is answer enough.

      "Now the majority of the DC characters or say, the X-Men, race doesn't matter."

      I see. That's totally different.

      "But Peter Parker? No, Drew. You're WRONG. He's the quintessential lower-middle class white kid that all of these fanboys (who are white) identify with. And yeah, it does matter. And saying that doesn't make me racist. And wanting that doesn't make them racist."

      You keep saying all fanboys are white.

      You're the one who is wrong here. Shockingly. Stunningly wrong.

      "It makes you kinda an a-hole (in this circumstance) though."

      Vice-versa, sir. Vice-versa.

      June 2, 2010 at 1:22PM EST
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      mjmcb105 Bug Killer, Drew said that European race relations were worse not better than the US. And while I agree that the term racist is sometimes overused, it is kind of hard to deny that some people who coming out against this are indeed racists.

      Also, demonizing something as "liberal" or "conservative" just shows someone's inability to form their own thoughts. As much as we may want it to be, nothing is ever that cut and dry.

      June 2, 2010 at 1:49PM EST
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    BdubU

    Yup. We all rascialist now in backwards Yurope.





    June 2, 2010 at 8:02AM EST Reply to Comment
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      DongLover4Spiderman Exactly. As a french fanboy, reading this article made me scream out loud at my screen(that's how we deal with our feelings here.) First of all:
      http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/06/01/donald-glover-could-play-spider-man/
      You can read the comments, too: Point is, that's a fairly important comic book website, and the author of this article(as well as the readers) don't care about Dong Lover's skin color. But, obviously, you should just take the idiotic AICN's readership as a fair representation of the geek community, or, even better, just random anonymous forum users or commenters. Yes, there are racist fanboys, but who exactly do you think participate in he Facebook campaign? And if you think Derrick Comedy's demo and Community's are totally devoid of comics fans, then I don't know what to say anymore. I'm pissed off at the racist geeks who make us "look bad", but I'm no less pissed off at you.
      Second, your sentence about Europe is just plain dumb:
      -You say Europe is the worst, but apart from Canada and Australia, there isn't any "White Country" that isn't in Europe. And ethnic minorities are represented like s*** there. So I don't think you've reread yourself, but that's okay, I didn't really expect you to.
      -I'm gonna speak about France here, cause I don't know a whole lot about other European countries: Most of last year's Cesars (french Academy Awards) went to A Prohpet, including best Actor and Best Hope (for young actors) to Tahar Rahim, a french man of Algerian descent. The movie was one of the most talked about of the year. A sitcom that is considered by many as the best french tv show ever, "H", had three male leads, two of them of Arabic descent, the third one of Guadeloupean descent. It ran for four seasons, from 1998 to 2002, on the most successful not government-owned channel, Canal +. I could go on (News hosts, talk show hosts...), but I think you understand what I'm trying to say.

      June 2, 2010 at 1:00PM EST
    • All_purpose_icon_talkback_profile

      drew DongLover4Spiderman...

      I did not call all fanboys racist.

      Nor did I call Europe racist.

      It is a simple statement of fact that getting European co-financing for a film with a black lead is infinitely more difficult than financing one with white leads.

      That is based on a simple cost-to-return formula that is used by financiers.

      I never said anything about Community or DERRICK having no fans who read comics. I'm not really sure what you're railing about, since that wasn't my point at all.

      June 2, 2010 at 1:26PM EST
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      SocGrad You can go ahead and start throwing me under the bus on this one, Drew. It sounds like people are confusing my comment with your article, and I obviously should have been much more careful. I think we can all agree that "Europe is more racist than the US" is a pretty gross generalization deserving of more a more specific critical conversation about culture, critical borders, race relations, economic mobility, etc.

      My comment was more about institutional racial inequality on a very broad social level (in terms of access to resources like housing, education, income, etc.), which has VERY little to do with individual Europeans (or Americans) being racist. But I can see why its caused so much confusion.

      June 2, 2010 at 4:15PM EST
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    PastorAndrew

    This guy is perfect, he looks young (watch mystery team) decent actor, funny, and awesome!

    June 2, 2010 at 8:32AM EST Reply to Comment
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    asd

    @everyoneelse have a look at the current backlash of casting Idris Elba as Heimdall in Thort

    June 2, 2010 at 8:46AM EST Reply to Comment
    • Uga_vii_talkback_profile

      BugKiller asd,

      wouldn't the backlash in the case be understandable?

      in the same way that Luke Cage couldn't be white and Captain America couldn't be black based on their back story...

      when was the last time you saw a black Norseman?

      June 2, 2010 at 8:49AM EST
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      asd Once again it's got nothing to do with race here. We now have black actors playing Shakespearean roles to critical acclaim (Adrian Lester as Hamlet is a perfect example) - it's about the ACTING not WHO ACTS. Personally I think Idris Elba would make a great Heimdall.

      Somehow movies (and comicbook movies especially) are unable to embrace this logic just yet.

      June 2, 2010 at 9:56AM EST
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      asd Once again it's got nothing to do with race here. We now have black actors playing Shakespearean roles to critical acclaim (Adrian Lester as Hamlet is a perfect example) - it's about the ACTING not WHO ACTS. Personally I think Idris Elba would make a great Heimdall.

      Somehow movies (and comicbook movies especially) are unable to embrace this logic just yet.

      June 2, 2010 at 9:56AM EST
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      alynch Race is a human characteristic. Gods aren't human. Therefore, the fanboy reaction to Elba's casting in a minor role was completely stupid.

      June 2, 2010 at 12:56PM EST
    • All_purpose_icon_talkback_profile

      drew Keep it up, Bug Killer.

      The characters in "Thor" aren't Norse. They're not even human. They aren't from Earth.

      So why does it matter what color you cast a character?

      June 2, 2010 at 1:28PM EST
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    mark c

    I disagree with your article and resent being labelled a racist because I believe Spiderman should be played by a white actor. Nobody wins an argument or discussion when their immediate thought is not to listen to the other person but to call them a racist becvause they dont agree with you.

    June 2, 2010 at 9:05AM EST Reply to Comment
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      Peyton If you don't want to be labeled as a racist then why don't you try to explain *why* you feel Peter Parker can only be played by a white actor aside from the fact that he happened to be painted white in the comics. I've been reading comics for 35 years and I can see no fundamental character based reason that he should be *have* to be white.

      June 2, 2010 at 1:27PM EST
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    CGaijin

    I think Drew's heart is in the right place, but his thinking is way too complicated. To me, the simple reason is that comics are a visual medium, and when you cast an actor to play a comic book character, he or she should LOOK like the character-- especially with the iconic ones. When Cathy Lee Crosby played Wonder Woman as a blonde in a pantsuit, it didn't work; when they recast with Lynda Carter and put her in the costume from the comics, they had a hit.

    It's why Zack Galifianakis can't be Superman, and Lea Michelle can't be Captain America. It has nothing to do with racism, and everything with fans wanting their beloved characters to come alive and step off the page. And also, for some context, one might also consider that fans are super-sensitive to this because of the several decades of they've had to put up with Hollywood adapting their characters without paying any attention to the source material at all. Comics fans, in a way, feel that these are THEIR characters, and want to see them presented as the characters they know.

    June 2, 2010 at 9:27AM EST Reply to Comment
    • All_purpose_icon_talkback_profile

      drew The problem with that is that how they look changes. Radically in most cases. Artist to artist, decade to decade, series to series. Comic book characters are malleable, and everyone who works with them loves to bend and twist and alter the icon to leave a signature on it.

      This is no different.

      June 2, 2010 at 1:32PM EST
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      Crestfallen I think CGaijin has a valid point about people wanting to see iconic figures come to life. Depictions of comic characters are malleable - to a degree - but the look doesn't change all that dramatically, regardless of the artists involved. Superman is always dark haired, blue eyed, and strong-jawed. Captain America is similarly rendered but blond. The look may be twisted or innovated a bit, but Superman is unlikely to be presented as a short, light-haired bearded man with a gut. And should he be, the fan community probably wouldn't view the change favorably.

      June 2, 2010 at 4:01PM EST
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    kevintonight

    I read somewhere that it would be a insult to make a characther like Luke Cage, Storm or Black Panther white, but it would be ok to make Spider-man black. How does that make any sense? Call me a tradionalist, but stop messing with the race of these character. Spider-man has always been white and to change his race now would be insane. Why? Is it a PC move to give the black community there own super hero to root for. I can see that, but how about writing a character that fits that description instead of hijacking a character that has been white for way over 40 years. It makes no sense and idf the roles were reversed it would be deemed insulting.

    June 2, 2010 at 9:43AM EST Reply to Comment
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    LAP

    As a kid while watching the Electric Company, I always assumed Spidey was EZ Reader in costume since they had the same body shape. That would've made Morgan Freeman Spiderman in my young mind.

    June 2, 2010 at 10:03AM EST Reply to Comment
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    Alex

    Good article.

    I think a black actor could provide interesting perspective on Peter Parker, the eternal outcast. What if he was in a predominately white school, trying to make it as a chemistry geek? I actually think there's something about Peter Parker that would really work with a black actor.

    And I think Donald Glover's funny as hell.

    I'm a comic geek and I'm all for his casting, although I realize it'll never happen for reasons enumerated by you.

    June 2, 2010 at 10:11AM EST Reply to Comment
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      James I totally agree. The more I think about it, the more I realize that it makes almost too much sense for Spider-man to be black. His whole character schtick is that he's always the outcast, always overlooked, made fun of, never given the opportunity, right? Wouldn't that just be magnified if he's black?

      In fact, I think they lost a golden opportunity by not making him black in the Ultimate Comics line. I mean, the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking why the hell didn't they do it?

      June 2, 2010 at 12:52PM EST
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    Tek_Kwene

    What if there were TWO Spideys? The storyline would cut between Donald and Josh, , both a Parker-like characters and as crime fighters, until eventually, they meet up to defeat the evil villain and during the fight, only one of them survives and we don't know who until the next movie installment. What if?

    June 2, 2010 at 10:14AM EST Reply to Comment
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    Fastbak

    I like Donald Glover on COMMUNITY. I actually think his character is more consistently funny than Abed on the show. He would've made a more interesting Peter Parker than Tobey Maguire IMO. He'd at least be funny. I don't think the studios would take that risk though but it's a nice to hear some close-minded fanboys get rattled for a while anyway.

    June 2, 2010 at 10:16AM EST Reply to Comment
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    Howie

    Very interesting topic that you started Drew. As I've recently come to a discussion with a friend about something similar that I'm still trying to wrap my thoughts around.

    There's something interesting going on with Audience Ownership. While Drew, you advocate that Peter Parker could be black because it wasn't a factor of what makes "Spiderman", other commenters have identified with Peter Parker being white for a long time, and themselves being white makes it THEIR ownership of the art.

    Both sides have equal right in acknowledging why they see that character that way, and in NO WAY makes either side "racist" like someone else already pointed out. It's not about racism.

    And that's the problem I'm having lately with my friend, and I'll explain:

    I'm Chinese and grew up on a healthy dose of Miyazaki and Jet Li/Shaw Brothers all you can eat kung fu culture in its native language, while I pretty much grew up in Canada.

    So then I saw "Avatar: The Last Airbender" a couple years ago. I thought it was brilliant on all levels of storytelling. I recommend it to my friend and he also loves it, he's not asian btw.

    So then I mentioned to my friend how I'm disappointed that the movie version coming out will have its main characters not Asian. He said.. "well, I don't think it's that important, since if they act well, the story will be just as good"

    In my Audience Ownership view: The Asian heritage and culture that they reference played a HUGE part in MY enjoyment of the show. Thus I feel it's an element that, if changed, just simply won't be Air Bender anymore.

    My friend's Audience Ownership view: "the story is very well thought out, but if you cast white people as leads, it's cool, it won't make me feel the story isn't Air Bender"

    So here's the thing, I honestly feel there is something monumental about focusing on source material and why it works. To me, I believe the makers of Air Bender wanted to make the show all Asian because that's part of their creation, it's THEIR world.

    I, as an Asian, had another level of appreciation because of that (a show sending up Asian culture) and feel that's ingrained in why it makes that show work.

    My friend on the other hand, doesn't have that same background as me, and doesn't really have that same reaction to the film version casting non-Oriental Asians as the leads.

    So to bring this back to Peter Parker: like my friend, I'm on the flip side of things-- I'm on the position that isn't as emotionally attached to having Pete as white. Whereas others are.

    I think what Drew is trying to point out, and try to engage intelligently, however, is unlike Air Bender, the culture/ethnicity/race of Peter wasn't that big of a role, or at all. And in trying to convey to others of this distinction, it leads to some anger and frustration.

    June 2, 2010 at 10:37AM EST Reply to Comment
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