A Return To Middle-Earth, Part II: Liveblogging 'The Two Towers' on Blu-ray
Gollum arrives, trees talk, and Helm's Deep goes to war in the second 'LOTR' film
- Critic's Rating A+
- Readers' Rating A+
Sean Astin as Sam, Elijah Wood as Frodo, and Gollum as himself in a scene from the second part of the 'Lord Of The Rings' trilogy, 'The Two Towers,' the subject of tonight's liveblog
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Sorry we missed the second night, but a horrifying stomach flu raced through the McWeeny household over the last 36 hours or so, and last night was my turn to transform into some sort of horrifying Slurpee Machine From Hell. Now that we've conquered that and banished the illness, it's time to dive back in with a second round of liveblogging our Return To Middle-Earth.
Two quick notes. First, I promise to spell Ian McKellen's name correctly tonight. And second, I am startled to realize that I remember very little about the way these next two films actually work. I know I've seen them, I know I've reviewed not only the theatrical but the Extended cuts before, and I know the general shape of things. But when it comes to remembering the specific beats and scenes, I'm drawing a bit of a blank...
... and I LOVE that.
I love that these return viewings are fresh for me. As fresh as possible, anyway, considering how many times it feels like I watched everything the first time around. In this case, they're so massive that it feels like I'm wading into something new all over again. I'm excited. And now the disc is in the player and here we go...
We just wrapped up a Film Nerd 2.0 screening of "The Muppet Movie," and the boys are irritated that they have to leave the room now. I love that they're excited about these movies, and they know the time is coming that they'll see them. But this time through is all about me enjoying them anew and getting a better sense of them as movies, something that's been a long time coming.
The beginning of this, for example... don't remember it at all. This is the hardest movie, structurally, and now, as the sounds of Gandalf's battle with the Balrog come creeping in, I remember that this was a really bold way to jump into the second film. And it's always good to get another look at the Balrog, which remains one of the craziest movie monsters of all time.
I love that this time, we follow Gandalf down and see this epic mind-bending battle between him and this creature of Shadow and Fire. It's such a hard thing to visualize, and Jackson brought it to life in such a kinetic, gorgeous way, each of these images frame-worthy. That long shot as they enter the cavern, the sounds of Shore's score swelling... bliss.
And then the cut to the main title, and we're back with Sam and Frodo, and that jump from extreme loud to very quiet really works, reminding us that while this is indeed an epic story, its focus is very personal.
I like the way we start to get a sense of the geography of Middle-Earth now, as Sam and Frodo work their way towards Mordor. And I also think it's great that we start quiet so we get a little bit of the evolving dynamic between Sam and Frodo, which is such an important part of how these next two films are going to work, along with a hint that Gollum's getting closer.
In a way, I feel like the characters don't really emerge as characters until this movie. The first film sets up the stakes and the world and the way things work, and we see the start of connections, but it's not until everyone is driven apart that we start to get a real sense of them in all their eccentric glory.
Gollum's introduction works in no small part because of how physical it is, how completely we have to believe that these two are actually dealing with something that has weight and heft. When I went to Lightstorm a few years ago for their big demonstration of post-converted 3D, this introductory scene was the one we saw from "Lord Of The Rings," and what struck me is how much more real it made Gollum feel because all of a sudden, you could see Sam on one plane, Frodo on another, and Gollum right there, holding a very real space between them.
The real magic trick of Gollum isn't technical, though. I'm still amazed at how extreme a choice Andy Serkis made with the voice, and how well it works. He's funny, he's pathetic, he's scary, he's upsetting... and somehow, he can play all those notes in the character side-by-side. From the moment he starts speaking in this film, he is fully-realized and impossible to look away from, and remains a key part of the success of the series.
Merry and Pippin are a good example of what I mean about the characters really coming into focus here. They've got a few great moments in "Fellowship," and they're used for punctuation in a few places, but their friendship is etched so much better in this film, since they've only got one another to bounce off of for much of the movie. The same is true of Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli as they pursue them. The gentle teasing from Legolas to Gimli, the authentic physicality of Mortensen as Aragorn... these are things that only start to emerge as we see them together on the cusp of Rohan.
"The world is changing." Second time we've heard that in the series, but this time, it's Christopher Lee, and I like how Jackson drops in an actual explanation of what "The Two Towers" the title refers to are. For the purpose of the movie, Saruman defines it as the alliance between his tower at Isengard and Sauron's tower in Mordor, a union that threatens the fabric of Middle-Earth. Jackson's timing for making these films was impeccable, and as a result, he caught Christopher Lee at the exact moment between old and elderly, when he's still commanding as a physical presence, but gaunt with age. I'm so glad he got to do these movies, and they benefit from having him in place as a dark answer to McKellen's warmth.
Jackson really pushed up against the hard edge of what a PG-13 film can do, which is inevitable when dealing with material like this. It's so grim, so dark at times, that even when you pull back on the graphic nature of the violence, it's still hard to take at times. This introduction of Eomer, for example, has to show the aftermath of war, and even toned down a bit, Jackson still includes enough mud and blood to make it feel dirty.
And speaking of dirty... helloooooooooooo, Miranda Otto.
How old is Brad Dourif? What supernatural entity did he make a deal with in order to stay perpetually the same basic age? And if someone's name is Wormtongue, isn't that sort of a giveaway that you shouldn't listen to them?
Oh, Grima, I don't blame you. I'm totally smitten with Otto in the film as well. And I love the way Jackson introduces the politics at play in Rohan, such an important part of the mechanics of the series. Karl Urban is great, and it's little wonder he was one of the guys who got a huge bump out of being in these films. And Bernard Hill as Theoden (not John Noble as Denethor -- excuse me for my temporary madness) breaks my heart every time we see him, so feeble and worn down that he can barely move his lips. In one quick scene, we learn so much about this family and this land and the rot that's eating away at them.
"What about their legs? They don't need those." Horrifying. It's important that Jackson lets his horror movie sensibilities come out at times, because we've seen a lot of generic bad guy beasties in films over the years, and for the Orcs to register, they needed to be tactile and filthy and gross, and this scene with Pippin and Merry certainly plays that up.
Showing the way Aragorn pieces together what happened is Jackson's "CSI: Middle-Earth" moment, and I've always really loved the cutting here, the energy as Aragorn realizes they've survived, and then the hesitation when they realize the Hobbits ran into Fangorn Forest.
Richard O'Brien hasn't aged a day since "Rocky Horror Picture Show," really. Oh, wait, that's not him, that's the Orc chasing Pippin and Merry again. Excuse me.
We're thirty-nine minutes in, and here comes probably the weirdest thing I've ever seen in a giant blockbuster. The introduction of the Ents is a huge leap, one of the most extreme and unique ideas in the series, playing directly into the themes of anti-industrialization that Tolkien felt so strongly about, and I think Jackson knew that this is one of those moments where you risk having your mainstream audience let out a giant collective "What in the hell is happening?!" if you do it wrong.
Again, we're still under an hour into the film, and it already feels like we've covered major ground. There is so much incident, so many moments, and it feels to me like no time is wasted here. Each cut brings us into a new scene, with some new idea, or some new character, or some new place, and even in moments like seeing the Hobbits and Gollum stuck in the bog, which is all about tedium, the energy is impressive, and I love Gollum's performance here, the growing antagonism between him and Sam.
I see UGA brought up the idea that Jackson used Jonathan Rhys-Davies as both Treebeard's voice and Gimli, and I agree that it's one of the few weird missteps in the series. I like his breathy, strange work as Treebeard, but he does sound like Gimli, distractingly so, and there's nothing you can do to disguise it. He's got such a rich and recognizable voice. I hope the same thing doesn't happen with Benedict Cumberbatch playing both the Necromancer and the voice of Smaug in "The Hobbit."
Another reason Gollum is so fascinating is because of the way Jackson constantly refuses to play him as strict bad guy. Him saving Frodo from the marshes, and the creepy conversation they have that night about Smeagol, it all works to make Gollum complex, which makes him more disturbing if anything. The idea of seeing the toll that the Ring takes written in the very skin and bones of a character is a great one, and there's nothing Lucas did in the "Star Wars" series that treats the Dark Side of the Force with anything like that level of emotional complexity. In "Star Wars," it's sort of a light switch. You're good or you're bad. But here, you can be a good person, and it doesn't matter. Once the Ring has its hooks in you, it's like cancer. It will spread, and it will eat you, and there's little or nothing you can do about it.
Even if you knew the truth about the White Wizard before this reveal, it is beautifully handled, and McKellen's return is important to the series. I like that Jackson just flat-out cheats, laying in some of Christopher Lee's voice when we still can't quite see Gandalf's face, so that when he finally steps forward, it's wonderful.
Then back into that crazy battle, and these have to be the closest things we'll ever see to a living Yes album cover, strange and surreal and beautiful. Gandalf's acid trip is a nice, simple way to suggest the larger cosmic forces at play here, and we get the sense that this really isn't the same character. McKellen is so good that he makes you believe this is a different person, only glancingly familiar with the memories and moods of the original Grey model.
I like that Jackson just used a real horse as Shadowfax instead of a CG creation, and McKellen's reaction to him is beautiful. He's lighter, warmer, quicker to smile as Gandalf The White. He's been recharged by his death and rebirth, and it seems important for him as he tries to bring together the forces that will be required to stop Sauron.
Okay... just in case you're at all confused by the first hour, Gandalf is nice enough to do a little recap for us here, and he also underlines the fact that the shell game they're playing has had the desired effect of keeping the Ring totally hidden from Sauron.
All things considered, they make it to the Black Gate pretty quickly, don't they? This is over now, right? They're just going to stroll on up and drop it in and then we can all go home... right? It's almost cruel the way we see Sam and Frodo get this close this fast.
Every now and then, there's a shaky composite like that shot on the top of the gate as it starts to swing open, but then the shots just before and just after it are so great, so striking, such a nice blend of practical shooting and CGI, that I can't imagine anyone really getting hung up on it.
Ooooh... those looks exchanged by Sam and Frodo when Frodo chooses to follow Gollum's advice over Sam's are just amazing. You have to sow the seeds carefully if we're going to believe the split between the friends later, and Jackson is careful in the way he has Gollum slowly earn Frodo's trust.
As I mentioned, I'm not really sure about each new shot layered into the Extended Editions, but all of this stuff with Pippin and Merry is definitely new, and I'm struck as I watch them play together that I don't see Dominic Monaghan here at all. On "Lost," or in person at Fantastic Fest this year, he's not this guy. Not at all.
The flag of Rohan on the wind? Not the most subtle moment in the film.
Gandalf's so good at pretending frailty. The "walking stick" thing is great. This is one of my favorite sequences, the way Dourif is just nakedly puppeteering his King, and the moment Gandalf comes face to face with him, it's on. Gandalf doesn't have to use brute force here, which makes it convenient that he's got his entourage in tow, but rather uses his own version of power to try to reach Theoden, buried deep inside this wizened husk of a king. Jackson turns this into his very own mini-remake of "The Exorcist," and the moment when he knocks Saruman out of Theoden is just plain awesome.
Yikes. I just deleted a bunch of stuff by mistake. Got distracted by the kids. I wanted to talk about (A) how stunning Miranda Otto is on Blu-ray, and how much I love the dressed down look, with so little visible make-up. Watching her watch Theoden awake, she's what really sells it. I love the make-up moment, the way they bring up the light in his eyes, but it's the tears that spill from hers that really sell the moment for me. I also wanted to talk about (B) the way pity and mercy are so closely related in the films, and how Theoden's failure to kill Wormtongue is the second direct mention of this in the films. It's important because it shows that it is not one big choice that defines our heroes, but rather this accumulated weight of all the small choices that give them a real moral high ground in the story.
The funeral scene is one of the last quiet moments Jackson affords the characters before things start to accelerate again, and it's one of the surprising emotional crescendos in the series. Again, you can't overstate how important McKellen's work is in this beat. He gives each of his big speeches a real sense of music, and he also finds the emphasis that turns them into sledgehammers.
Creepiest thing about Saruman? Those disco coke fingernails of his. Yeeeeesh.
Oh, Aragorn. You've got the most beautiful Elf in the world waiting for you, willing to give up eternal life, and yet I understand the difficulty here. She's good with a sword, she fears not death or pain... come on, Eowyn's pretty much the whole package.
The surround mix on these Blu-rays, by the way, is awesome. It sounded like Gollum just belched behind my couch.
Sam doesn't get it. He really doesn't understand what's happening to Frodo. He knows it intellectually, and he can see the impact on Frodo, but he doesn't really get it. And that's why Frodo's feelings for Gollum are so disturbing. Elijah's history as a child actor informs the way we react to him in these films as we watch him play a creeping darkness we'd never seen from him before.
The staging of this late-night debate between Gollum and Smeagol is one of the most inspired moments in the entire trilogy. By making his internal struggle external with simple camera language, Jackson really underlines that this isn't an act. This is a genuine war being waged inside this sad creature, and Serkis is so beautiful in his joy that I still have a hard time believing we're looking at pixels, not flesh and blood.
"What's taters, precious?" Both Sam and Gollum make me cackle in this scene.
Oliphaunts are the same thing as Heffalumps, right? Seems like a good place for a break between the discs, and I'm going to take a quick break. Watch Twitter so we can countdown the start of the second half of the film in about ten minutes. As the armies gather, I'm going to go storm my bathroom and get something else to drink.
INTERMISSION
A lovely little bit of Dwarf humor to kick off the second half of the film, and it makes me excited about what we'll see of Dwarven culture in this next film. I'd also like to point out that I can count every freckle on Eowyn's face on the Blu-ray. God bless technology.
Man, I hope I look as good as Aragorn at 87. I'm willing to trade a limb or an organ if necessary.
All kidding aside, this dream of Arwen coming directly after his moment with Eowyn is important to underline that this is the romantic couple we are rooting for. "The heart of the Eveningstar does not wax and wane." Liv's so pretty she's like a special effect anyway, and hearing that little bit about Aragorn's advanced age shows why they can work as a couple. She may live longer, but at least she'll have more time with him than with a mortal man. She also wears the heck out of those ears.
One thing I think makes Mortensen's work special in these films is something I've pointed out about Mark Hamill in the "Star Wars" films... he believes in the details of this world. Watching him deal with the props and the costuming and the world around him, I always feel like Mortensen is an organic piece of what we're watching, something carved by WETA. His physicality sells the idea that he lives here, that these things are familiar to him even if they're strange to us.
Oh, look... Wargs!
The Warg attack is one of the few set pieces in the films where I feel like the effects pushed right up against the bleeding edge of what WETA could do and fell a little short. They are probably the least organic of the major creature creations in the films, and part of that is because they're big shaggy beasts, which can be very hard to get right. Maybe if they were the only things that WETA had to create in the film, they could have really nailed them, but the combination of the type of movement, the nature of the beasts, and the kinetic quality of the sequence is enough to make me wince a little now.
I feel like Jackson cast Otto for those huge eyes of hers and her ability to fill them with tears with ease, and then got lucky because she's credible in the action scenes and has a rough-hewn beauty that feels like she fits into the world perfectly. Her reaction to the news that Aragorn is dead is one of those moments where it all comes down to a look, and she nails it, just as Dourif does when he sees the army that Saruman has assembled outside Isengard. Yes, the way Jackson used MASSIVE here to create his giant CGI armies was impressive when we first saw it, but it's the tear that escapes Wormtongue that seals that scene.
"Now he has a mind of metal... and wheels." Time and time again, some turn of the phrase jumps out of these movies with an elegance that raises them above any of the imitators. Even the filmmakers adapting the Narnia series haven't taken full advantage of their source material to try and preserve the lyrical, playful prose that Lewis was often capable of producing. I don't think the Narnia books are as dense as the "LOTR" series, but I think the opportunity was there, and intentionally ignored in favor of a more modern tone that grounds the films in the time they were made. With these movies, they don't really feel modern or old or anything to speak of. They have their own pace, their own energy, and definitely their own language.
Sorry... real life intruded there for a moment. I'm still watching, though, and that entire stretch of film we just went through is a significant one, and it's fleshed out substantially here. David Wenham's Faramir is set up in a very different way than his brother Boromir was, and his moral journey is maybe the most compelling of the series. There are so many reasons for Faramir to give in to temptation, and really only one reason he shouldn't: because it is wrong. By making it a true challenge, Tolkien raises questions about any use of might in the world, and they're questions we're still grappling with now. That moment where Gollum has no idea how close to death he is, singing his happy fish song, is oddly endearing, and yet within moments, we see that Smeagol has not truly banished Gollum. Not at all.
While I may be able to nitpick a few of the composites or digital effects in the films, a shot like that first moment where Aragorn sees Helm's Deep across the way looks absolutely real. If you told me that the building actually was in New Zealand, real and simply repurposed for the films, I would believe it. The great thing about a movie like "Star Wars" is that we've never seen any worlds like those, and we never will. I'll never actually see a city that takes up an entire planet, and so it's a thrill to see it realized on film in some way. With Middle-Earth, this is meant to be a possible past of our own planet, and so the challenge is making it feel fantastic and grounded at once, new and yet completely familiar. Jackson is very good at mixing his sets and locations and keeping you off-balance just when you're sure you know what you're looking at.
For great action scenes, you need a sense of geography and you need to understand the stakes, and the way Jackson builds to the assault on Helm's Deep is a class in how to create a major, major set piece. He explains the way the city is laid out, he shows us how it works, and he makes sure to explain that the Uruk-Hai are not just the regular Orcs we've already seen. As a result, the tension that's building at this point is already tough to take, and it's only going to get more brutal by the time the battle begins.
The casting of the warriors around Aragorn and Legolas is also key to making this feel compelling. "Most have seen too many winters." "Or too few." This is not a fair fight, which makes them even more heroic. They know there is a strong chance they will all die, and yet as Theoden suits up, as we see everyone taking their weapons, as we see helmets placed on children, it is obvious that there is no other choice to make. You stand. You fight. You do it because it must be done, not because you want to. And you know that you will have to fight harder than the enemy because they are stronger. And even so, no one balks. No one complains. There are nerves, and there is some fear given voice, but still.. they prepare.
The boys are frothing at the mouth right now. They are so desperate to be in here to watch the Helm's Deep battle. They can hear the build-up to war shaking the walls of the house, and they've found at least three excuses to step in here and look at the screen. I love that they're going to have those few glimpses bouncing around in there without context for a while. It gives them something to wait for and look forward to.
People love to lump Jackson's films in with the glut of fantasy movies made in the wake of the success of "Lord Of The Rings," but you can't watch the staging of Helm's Deep and compare this to anything else in recent memory. This isn't even the climax of the series, but it's staged as if it is the single most important battle ever fought, which is just as it should be. For these people, this is it. There's nothing else. And he makes sure there is impact to the swordplay, makes sure that when arrows hit, they hurt. Like I said, he pushes the PG-13 further than I think anyone else ever has, and it's hard to keep any rating in mind as I watch this play out.
Notice how it's gunpowder that suddenly makes everything unfair during the battle? And not some special magic spell that someone casts? It is no accident that the Shire is more lush and green than anything else we see in Middle-Earth, and that Rivendell is held as this ideal as well. The older I get, the more I long for a permanent getaway where I can detach myself and get, as Joe Banks once said, "away from the things of Man." Gunpowder is so unexpected that it instantly shifts the balance of power, and considering what Tolkien must have witnessed on the fields of World War I, it is little wonder he had no faith in the role that technology would play in future wars.
It makes it even more resonant when Merry and Pippin finally convince the Ents that they have to participate, that they have a stake in this war as well. Their frustration is palpable, and each time Jackson cuts away from the battle to show the Hobbits trying to convince the Ents, I'm just as frustrated by the edit as Merry seems to be by the debate that's taking place in super slow motion. I want to see what's happening at Helm's Deep, and I want the Ents to shut up and get in the game. That's exactly what we're supposed to want, of course, and it's another case of the running time playing into our emotional investment in what's happening.
By the time Gimli looks up at Aragorn and says, "Don't tell the Elf" just before getting tossed, it works as a joke because we've had time to see their interplay, and it works as a real character beat because we've grown to like both of them so much. I think Rhys-Davies had a terribly difficult job, playing through what looks like 100 pounds of make-up, often involved in some sort of trick shot or effect, and yet somehow having to give this character dignity and strength and a sense of humor that reads through the costume and the tricks.
Honestly, I wouldn't have expected that Jackson could get this much weight and heft out of Merry and Pippin emotionally based on the way they're used in the first film, but by this point, as they're talking to Treebeard, and as he sees the ravaged hillside where no trees still stand, there's nothing "funny" about them. Yes, Jackson can still earn a laugh with them, but they're not jokes anymore. He gives them real heart and soul, and Monaghan and Boyd are perfectly paired, as lovely a match in chemistry as that between Wood and Astin.
The sight of the Ents gathering, ready to fight now, is one of the strangest in the movie, and god bless WETA for pulling it off. I would have been terrified as a visual effects artist to have been on that team. "You need to make walking trees look badass." That entire sentence is insane, and yet... there they are. Walking trees. And they look suitably badass.
Hey, Faramir, your brother died because he was a dick. Don't be a dick. I forgot how tense this stuff was, staged there amidst a crumbling Gondor, Nazgul coming in from above, Sam and Frodo desperate to keep Faramir from making the wrong choice. And just as their hope fades, new hope starts to kick in for Theoden and Aragorn and those who stand at Helm's Deep, and Shore's score really goes into overdrive in this whole stretch of the film, growing and growing and growing, somehow sustaining this sense of building crescendo for something like an hour of film.
To make everything pay off together, with the Ents at Isengard just as Gandalf rides in with the Riders of Rohan to save Helm's Deep, everything paying off together, is one of the great juggling acts I've ever seen in a film like this. It never feels like he's cheating or holding off on anything just for the sake of the payoff. It all makes sense, and it feels organic that it would all come to a head at the same time.
Then to make that choice and drop all the sound out and give us that crazy near-silent moment between Frodo and the Nazgul, and to see how close Sam comes to death because he won't let Frodo go, it brings it all back to the personal, just as the beginning of the film did. While the battles may have been won, none of that may matter because Frodo's reached a breaking point, and he does not see any way to continue.
Sure, this is a moment that almost breaks the third-wall, Sam talking about the nature of great stories, but Astin's earnestness is what you need to sell a speech like that, and the imagery is so grand that it feels right. Also, Jackson's acknowledging that we've still got a long way to go, and he believes that the good in this world is worth fighting for. It's not just some corny thing some actors say. Remember when these films were arriving in theaters, and the mood around the world in the wake of 9/11. Someone had to say these things, even if they were completely on the nose, and to hear these ideas given such clear voice was valuable for us as an audience, just as it seemed valuable for Jackson as an artist.
Even now, though, a decade removed from those events, the heartfelt nature of those moments rings through, and Jackson lets a little bit of light shine through, even giving Pippin and Merry a big barrel of longbottom leaf to enjoy their brief respite before the darkness drops back onto everyone, sending us out of the theater feeling like a victory has been won even if it's just for this one moment.
It's also impressive how Jackson drops the seeds for the next film without showing any sort of specific trailer or without being too overt. Just the barest hint of Shelob and a reminder of the battle being waged inside Gollum is enough to make the wait for "Return Of The King" a hard one.
Thankfully, we don't have a year to wait. The Battle for Helm's Deep is over. The Battle for Middle-Earth is about to begin. And I'll see you here tomorrow night at 6:00 PM PST to wrap it all up.
In the meantime, as we listen to Not-Bjork, I'm going to look up my original reviews of the theatrical and Extended versions of the films, and I'll link them here. I'm curious to see how over the top my ardor was in 2001 and 2002, and I'm surprised to see how little that ardor has faded in the decade since.
You can read the liveblog I did for "Fellowship" right here.
You can read my original "Fellowship" review here, and my Extended Edition review here.
You can read my original "Two Towers" review here.
You can read my original "Return Of The King" review here.
And while I know I reviewed each of the Extended Edition discs, I can't find those reviews right now, a genuine and ongoing issue with my work at Ain't It Cool. I'll keep looking, though.
See you tomorrow.
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Next 61 CommentsUGABugKiller
December 29, 2011 at 10:02PM EST Reply to CommentAnd here... we... go! (RIP Heath Ledger!)
UGABugKiller
December 29, 2011 at 10:06PM EST Reply to CommentThis is the first time I'm watching my EE blus on my new hdtv (old one was 60hz, only 10000 contrast ratio dip, this is 120hz 150000 contrast ratio lcd, and it's WAY better)...
... everything looks so beautiful... the detail on the Balrog is scary it's so real!
UGABugKiller
December 29, 2011 at 10:13PM EST Reply to CommentMust people just don't understand that Andy was actually THERE, on set with Elijah and Sean, performing WITH them. It's really him.
I was always disappointed the Academy didn't bring back the "special oscar" like they used to give out back in the day, so his achievements in performing as Gollum, as well as Weta's in bringing his avatar to life.
Sean
December 29, 2011 at 10:15PM EST Reply to CommentMy favorite of the trilogy!
I was a bit nonplussed the first time I saw The Fellowship of the Ring. I guess I had The Lord of the Rings kicking around in my head so long, I didn't know what to make of Peter Jackson's take on it.
The Two Towers cemented my love for this trilogy. This was the film that made me finally feel comfortable with what Jackson's vision was for these three films.
After The Two Towers, I couldn't wait for The Return of the King.
UGABugKiller
December 29, 2011 at 10:20PM EST Reply to CommentYou're so right about Andy, Drew!
In fact, it's almost a shame that his part in The Hobbit is little more than a cameo, and only in the first film.
Maybe they can film a cameo for the end of the second film where it shows Gollum coming out of his cave after many years of wallowing to search for his Precious.
UGABugKiller
December 29, 2011 at 10:31PM EST Reply to CommentDrew, I think you mean BERNARD KING as THEODEN. We don't meet John Noble as Denethor until later in the EE version of TTT
UGABugKiller I said King, thinking Theoden King. LOL. Bernard Hill, of course.
December 29, 2011 at 10:36PM ESTkuiper Bernard King would've been an inspired choice
December 29, 2011 at 10:48PM ESTTony
December 29, 2011 at 10:33PM EST Reply to CommentBernard Hill as Theoden?
UGABugKiller
December 29, 2011 at 10:39PM EST Reply to CommentI love how Jackson used the take of Vigo kicking the helmet in which he broke his big toe doing so.
That is some METHOD method. Hah!
UGABugKiller
December 29, 2011 at 10:45PM EST Reply to CommentDrew, do you feel Jackson made a mistake by choosing Rhys-Davies for Treebeard?
It's obviously Gimli's voice. It's almost off-putting, having two characters, two IMPORTANT characters, with the same voice.
William D'Annucci Not nearly as off-putting as Rhys-Davies looping McKellen's added dialog during The Council of Elrond in FOTR EE. But I guess I'm one of very few (if any) who noticed.
December 30, 2011 at 9:31AM ESTUGABugKiller
December 29, 2011 at 10:58PM EST Reply to CommentOne of the the best parts of The Hobbit will be seeing the return of Gandalf the Grey, who much more fun than Gandalf the White, who is all business because he can't afford to be anything else.
Sir Ian agrees, as he's said many times he prefers Grey Gandy! :-)
UGABugKiller
December 29, 2011 at 11:04PM EST Reply to CommentDrew, it's interesting you bring this up, because in the Theatrical Cuts, he doesn't say that he IS Saruman, only Saruman as he should've been.
That was one of the most important things in the book, the idea that Gandalf was sent back to be the leader against Sauron that the Valar envisioned Saruman would've been for the Free Peoples of Middle Earth.
It's restoration in the EE was one of the small, but oh so important touches. As is the two Hobbits drinking Ent Draught and growing taller (said to be about dwarf-sized).
Of all three EE's, I think TTT gained the most in the little details that made the story better than FOTR or ROK.
Just Drawn That Way
December 29, 2011 at 11:22PM EST Reply to CommentTheoden always had my two favorite lines of dialogue in the trilogy: "A parent should never have to bury their child" in this film and the "Hail the victorius dead" monologue in Return of the King. I don't think I've ever heard ideas behind those statements expressed more elequently. As for John Rhys-Davies as Treebeard, you think maybe it was just cheaper to put a single actor in a duel role? I mean they had to save money where they could.
kuiper
December 29, 2011 at 11:24PM EST Reply to CommentI didn't like the transformation of Theoden when I saw it in the theatre. It's gotten less jarring each time I see it, but it is still a problem.
Hamish I have to agree. The thing that I don't like about the transformation is his facial hair just disappearing. I don't mind the wrinkles disappearing into his face or the hair changing color but why couldn't the beard fall from his face instead of turning into nothing.
December 31, 2011 at 4:19PM ESTSean
December 29, 2011 at 11:29PM EST Reply to CommentGotta disagree with the idea that there's "nothing Lucas did in the "Star Wars" series that treats the Dark Side of the Force with anything like that level of emotional complexity. In "Star Wars," it's sort of a light switch. You're good or you're bad."
I thought Anakin's turn in Revenge of the Sith, was very emotionally complex. He was being pulled apart by everyone: his wife, his confidantes (the chancellor), his friends (the Jedi). And he was struggling with the idea of necessary evil ( a dictatorship) for the greater good (peace through force).
Anakin's turn is pure Shakespearean tragedy, but it's done with more complexity than simply "turning a switch."
I know you're hyped about watching these movies, and Gollum is a great, fully-realized character, but let's not wax hyperbolic and start bashing other franchises to prove a point.
UGABugKiller Dude, defensive much (as SW fans tend to be when faced with the superiority of LOTR, hehe)?
December 29, 2011 at 11:34PM ESTWhat Drew is talking about, with regards to a "light switch," is that Vader is evil, and then he's not, in ROTJ.
We're supposed to believe his one act of saving his son made him be able to be a light side ghost with Ben and Yoda.
Kinda lame.
And now you're just making stuff up. "Emotionally complex"? A SW Prequel? No, there was nothing emotionally complex about Anakin's "fall" in ROTS. Sorry. Lucas doesn't do "emotionally complex."
UGABugKiller And in defense of Lucas, he never meant to do "emotionally complex" in SW, that's NOT what those films are about.
December 29, 2011 at 11:40PM ESTSo I'm not bagging on Lucas when I say he doesn't do "emotionally complex," it's just not what SW called for. SW was and is about big moments, with little regard to what happens in between. Hard to be emotionally complex in big moments.
drew Yeah, I'm not slamming Lucas, either. My kids had an emotionally complicated ride with the "Star Wars" series, but they are painted in broader strokes than "Lord Of The Rings" by design. Tolkien was writing what he thought of as literature and alternate history. Lucas was aiming for popcorn and archetype. One aims deeper than the other, and it's just a function of how they tell their respective stories.
December 29, 2011 at 11:52PM ESTStormshadow4life there's really no comparison. Star Wars is for children (and adults)....LOTR is for adults (and children)....HUGE difference!
December 29, 2011 at 11:55PM ESTChris I don't think Drew was bashing Star Wars at all -- they're just different types of movies.
December 29, 2011 at 11:55PM ESTEven with Anakin there's sort of a moment where he goes from good (not perfect, but a good guy with some issues) to evil. I mean, that's kind of the whole point of the scene where it's the Emperor vs. Mace Windu, isn't it? Anakin has to make an explicit choice, and he chooses the dark side. The reasons why he makes his decision are more complicated, but at the end it comes down to one, binary choice.
Again, not a criticism; I think Lucas staged the scene that way on purpose. It's just different.
Sean Thanks for giving me some clarification guys. But I do take a bit of umbrage at the idea that Lord of the Rings is more "adult" than Star Wars, and that Tolkien painted in much "broader strokes" than Lucas.
December 30, 2011 at 12:57AM ESTTolkien, in creating The Lord of the Rings, wanted to create a contemporary Judeo-Christian allegory similar to the sagas he had grown up reading, namely The Song of Roland and Beowulf.
Because he's dealing with this Judeo-Christian mythology structure, most of his characters are fairytale archetypes: the disinherited king, the magical advisor, the humble hero answering Joseph Campbell's "hero's call".
Not far removed from the same archetypes Lucas used.
In fact, I'd argue that Lucas' Star Wars films are more progressive and adult than Tolkien's works.
Case in point: women.
Tolkien and his buddy C.S. Lewis were religious nuts who viewed women the same way the Bible did; when they weren't put on a pedestal, women were submissive creatures who were better off kept in the kitchen.
And don't give me that, "well, Eowyn kills the Witch King" crap. That's the biggest throwaway bullshit ever. If Tolkien really cared about women, he would have made a woman a part of the fellowship.
Jackson himself partially tried to amend this by making Arwen a combatant at Helm's Deep. But of course the fanboys on the internet freaked out, and Jackson caved and ditched the idea.
But then we have Princess Leia. In Star Wars. Going toe to toe and blaster to blaster with the boys and doing it without a bra!
The Lord of the Rings is great, but come off of your high-horse boys. It isn't any more "adult" than any other genre picture.
Tolkien's claim to fame is his world building, not the "adult" nature of his work. There are many writers in fantasy whose prose not only stands miles above Tolkien, but whose works are far more adult, including, Gene Wolfe, Mervyn Peake, Roger Zelazny, Fritz Leiber, and Michael Moorcock.
UGABugKiller Sean... WRONG.
December 30, 2011 at 1:10AM ESTYou could not be more wrong if you tried to be wrong.
Tolkien ABHORRED allegory. He wrote and said in interviews time and time again that LOTR is not an allegory for ANYTHING, and if someone finds allegory in it, it is their own biases or experiences coloring their perception.
And your bullshit at the end is just that. Bullshit.
If you want to crap on Tolkien, you've come to the wrong place, especially with how ignorant and uneducated about Tolkien and his works you are, and the fact that now, you're just kind of being an asshat.
Or maybe troll is the better word.
UGABugKiller And your ignorance and lack of understanding of Tolkien is even more apparent in your choice of criticism.
December 30, 2011 at 1:16AM ESTYou know nothing of Tolkien and prove just how ignorant you are by choosing that particular topic, calling him a "religious nut" and someone who wanted women to be "subservient."
In fact... that is just so stupendously wrong. It's amazing how some people will talk about something so convinced of their own righteousness that they have absolutely no clue with how uneducated about it they truly are.
I have one word for you: Luthien.
Tolkien's wife Edith Tolkien was his whole world. She was his very inspiration for, as was their love, for much of the history of Middle Earth.
He certainly never demanded she be subservient to him.
You're a fool and a liar. Just STFU and go away.
SW apologist.
Sean Wow Ugabugkiller, take a pill will you? I'm sorry to have questioned the great and all-powerful Tolkien.
December 30, 2011 at 1:58AM ESTAnd you're right, I haven't done a thorough, in-depth study of Tolkien's life. But the little I know about him seems to contradict what you say.
Tolkien was very religious. "Religious nut" may have been extreme on my part, but I know Tolkien was religious enough that he would recruit and indoctrinate his friends into his religion.
Most notably C.S. Lewis, who he taught with. And whose Chronicles of Narnia are filled with Judeo-Christian allegory.
Tolkien may have claimed that The Lord of the Rings may have not been allegorical, but let me ask you this: What of Gandalf's speech to Pippin about "White shores?" What about Frodo's leaving for the Grey Haven's at the end of the story to find "peace? A peace he cannot find in this life with his friends (the fact that the story ends on this particular bit of pseudo-suicide is really unforgivable)?
And who knows? Maybe your right. Maybe Tolkien loved women and loved his wife. I don't know.
But I do know this. The only women in the Lord of the Rings are ethereal beauties held at arms distance. Most are pristine, idyllic versions of women, who are good enough to offer advice to our heros (like a housewife), but let the men in their lives manipulate the events around them.
To his credit, Tolkien makes Eowyn aware of this prison that he has built around her. And gives her a moment of women's lib. But once that moment is past, he brushes her aside and marries her off. Not an ideal fate for a professed shield maiden, I'd imagine.
Now, just so you know, Ugabugkiller, I am neither a troll nor a Star Wars apologist. I'm a Lord of the Rings fan. And I'm a fan of Drew's writing. That's why I'm here.
So before you answer this post, I want you to remember one thing. The Lord of the Rings are an exceptional film trilogy. But, like the Star Wars saga, are not perfect and are worth scrutinizing.
Even though he clearly loves the films, Drew in his commentary, wasn't above criticizing the films, notably in the special effects department.
The same is true for me, only I'm going after a couple of narrative problems I have with the work.
So before you respond, please think about what I'm saying. Remember, if your hands are shaking while your typing you haven't thought it through properly.
UGABugKiller My hands weren't shaking before, dog.
December 30, 2011 at 2:45AM ESTBut I have no problem hunting down and eliminating trollish behavior, of which yours was.
No, you don't know enough about Tolkien to make the claims you made.
You also bring whatever biases you have with you when you continue to try and find ideological fault with Tolkien's writing.
You think for a moment, not when this story was written, but WHEN it was written.
While Tolkien talks about female warriors in The Silmarillion, this is a different time in Middle Earth, and much like in most of the last, I don't know, 10,000 years of human history, there wasn't or isn't the kind of female archetype you seem to expect him to write for your politically correct appetite to be sated.
Whatever issues you have here YOU are bringing with you.
And your insinuations about Tolkien are insulting.
You talk about Tolkien having an anti-woman bias when I could infer, or even say it's fairly obvious that you have a very real anti-religion bias through your usage of vocabulary ("religious nut," "indoctrination") and tone, especially in your insistence at labeling the story a religious allegory, and doing so derisively and dismissively.
Whether you do have this bias or not is immaterial, right? I mean, that's pretty much what you're contending about Tolkien, because YOU see these things in him.
No, like all other ideologues, you want to find something, you find it, whether it's there or not.
Sean, if you don't or can't understand why Frodo cannot find peace in the Shire after what he's been through, the trauma and horrors he's experienced, then that's on you, man, not Tolkien. Both Tolkien (in the book) and Jackson (in the film) do a bang up job of explaining that there are some wounds that never heal. And if you can't understand that, that's a you issue, not a Tolkien issue.
And it certainly isn't religious allegory. It's firmly set in the reality of what it is like to come home as a survivor of war, to people who have no idea what you've experienced and felt.
It's fine if you love the films or Drew's writing. You're right, in that I responded harshly, and I could've done so with less strong language.
Telling you to STFU was unnecessary and stupid on my part.
Calling you out for authoritatively speaking about someone when you are as uneducated and obviously ignorant of not only who they are or were, but of their great work as well, well, I was and am very much on point there.
And saying the things you did, especially coming from a place of ignorance and bias, and not knowledge or fact, is very troll-like behavior.
As for your contention that it makes you angry that people claim Star Wars is for children and LOTR is more adult, well, to combat the bad press and critiques of his tin-eared dialogue and wooden direction of the first two SW prequels, what did Lucas begin to say?
Oh yeah, he retroactively claimed that SW was ALWAYS meant for children first, not adults.
So, because he couldn't deal with criticism of his poor writing and less-than-stellar direction of his actors, you can blame Lucas for this very recent idea that SW is for kids first, and is less "adult" or "weighty" than something like LOTR.
Sean Ugabugkiller, I forfeit. You win.
December 30, 2011 at 3:15AM ESTIf you see me as an idealogue (which is a word I didn't even know, proving your point that I am ignorant) with an anti-religion bias, instead of someone who is trying to legitimately criticize a work, than there is no point continuing this conversation.
However, let me leave you with this: I'd like to direct you to Michael Moorcock's famous essay "Epic Pooh," which is an interesting critique of Tolkien's work:
http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953
Moorcock is a Nebula and World Fantasy Award Novelist, and I'm certain he has none of the troll bias you accuse me of.
I hope you have the courage to read it. And you read it with an open mind.
By the way, you never really did answer my question about Gandalf's "White Shores" speech.
Peace, brother.
ushaped Dear UGA,
December 30, 2011 at 12:36PM ESTWhile an artist has the legitimate right to voice their opinion about their work, it is still an opinion among many. A work of art is an object of the artist but upon completion is now outside of them.
I have heard the "Tolkien vs. allegory" comment many times. On the one hand, it's easy to speculate that he either only meant LOTR to be a rousing fantasy or that his comments about allegory are an attempt to prevent the work's reduction.
I tend to agree with Drew's comments that allude to the fact that any artist works within their time period and may or may not always be aware of the influences despite actively working towards a specific result or effect.
It's arguable that a work of art serves as it's own "final" comment. It's our interpretation as admirers of a work that are cause for interesting conversation and re-evaluation. It's really all speculation anyway including any influence from the details of his life and it certainly should not be necessary (and IMHO not recommended) to read the works not meant for publication but subsequently published.
I think you have a legitimate opinion of Tolkien's work. But, so does eveyone else.
Best,
Sean Ushaped, thank you so much for your comment.
December 30, 2011 at 2:18PM ESTI want to go on record as stating that I truly love Tolkien's work, and I appreciate his contribution to the fantasy genre.
I'm not trying to reduce Tolkien's work in anybody's eyes; especially Ugo, who seems to really love his work and is fully-versed in all its myriad details.
This series of comments sprang from what I mistook to be a jab at the Star Wars Saga, and my knee-jerk reaction was to levy a couple of criticisms I had with The Lord of the Rings.
As you mentioned, Ushaped, the criticisms I made were not new, and have been levied against The Lord of the Rings since it was first published. No artistic work is a sacred cow, beyond criticism. Not Star Wars. And not Lord of the Rings.
Although Ugo's devotion to Tolkien was really pronounced, I appreciated the times when he addressed my arguments rather than attacking me and my "personal bias'" toward Tolkien.
I'm really glad Drew is writing these columns. As you mentioned, it gives us a great opportunity to re-evaluate Tolkien's work.
It's an opinion, man. That's all it is.
UGABugKiller
December 29, 2011 at 11:30PM EST Reply to CommentTheoden is my favorite character in these films. Bernard Hill is just perfect in how he plays him in this film, trying to make up for his mistakes while he was under Wormtongue and Saruman's thrall, and then in ROTK, where he is the most noble warrior King in the film, his battle-field speech putting Aragorn's own later in the film to shame.
Death! Death! DEATH!!!
PS - The arrival and charge of the Rohirrim at Pelennor Fields was my absolute most favorite part of the book, and when I saw it realized on film, I am not ashamed to say I cried. It was (and is) so beautiful.
DinoChow
December 29, 2011 at 11:45PM EST Reply to CommentHere's an interesting anecdote from the Special Features on the Extended Cuts - it wasn't actually Jackson who directed Gollum's late-night debate between himself. That was Fran Walsh, his wife/co-writer/co-producer, who was called in to direct that scene at the last minute on another unit while Jackson was busy directing another part of the film. As they say in the features, it was her relative inexperience directing that led to the simple brilliance of the camera work. Someone experienced may have tried doing something more complex, but Walsh simply decided to position the camera like there really were two characters.
UGABugKiller That's some great info, Dinochow!
December 29, 2011 at 11:48PM ESTStormshadow4life
December 29, 2011 at 11:52PM EST Reply to CommentJust finished Disc 2 tonight. I loved it, but I gotta say that Disc 1 played a bit better for me. One thing you commented on that I completely disagree with... Aragorn NEVER once faltered on his love for Arwen! If anything, he felt bad that she loved him, but he knew he could never love her back.
drew Aragorn's a good guy. He can't help that he's putting out the vibe and breaking hearts left and right.
December 29, 2011 at 11:55PM ESTStormshadow4life well, he is a very manly man!
December 29, 2011 at 11:56PM ESTMegalodon
December 30, 2011 at 12:08AM EST Reply to CommentWow, it really is nothing but "I like this... I really like this... this was so well done..." and maybe one negative comment in the whole bunch. I'm not really complaining, I guess I just don't get why everyone's so excited about you posting these, since that's pretty much what every LotR fan does when they watch. They like it. I suppose I was hoping for a little more insight and scrutiny. I admit I never read your Star Wars articles, because I never watched them enough to care or relate, so I wasn't sure what I was in for. On another note, I actually never knew that Treebeard and Gimli were the same actor/voice. Now that you say it, I can totally hear it my mind, but it had never occured to me before. And I would really, really like someone to be as confused as I was by the editing in the scene where Frodo and Sam are at the Black gate, slide down the hill, and are nearly spotted by the soldier. Narratively, I understand, but from those shots, I could never tell where the hobbits were in relation to the soldiers, much less how the heck those soldiers never saw them sliding down the hill. Sorry for the long comment. My two cents.
UGABugKiller Megalodon,
December 30, 2011 at 12:12AM ESTThe film admittedly doesn't do a good job of explaining this, but as with the rope, there is elvish magic woven into the cloaks.
They're basically elvish camouflage. They take on the color and appearance of their wearer's surroundings.
The hobbits ARE the big "rock" at the soldier's feet in that scene, which is why they can't see them.
They look like a rock.
drew I think these are pretty spectacular pictures, wall-to-wall, so you're not going to get a lot of me pulling them apart. I think I am talking about theme and ideas and character, though, which to me is more important than behind-the-scenes stuff, which these discs cover in truly exhaustive detail.
December 30, 2011 at 12:12AM ESTAnd these are nothing like the "Star Wars" pieces, which were about the experience of showing them to someone who had never seen them before. I'm just rewatching these for pleasure.
Megalodon Ugabugkiller, I did understand about the cloaks and the rock camouflage. That was clear when they threw it off and emerged, even if it hadn't been explained to me, and I thought it was a brilliant effect. No, what I meant was the combination of camera angles and where the characters were looking. I'm disoriented every time. We never see the hobbits and the soldiers in the same shot, and I can never tell where they are in relation to one another. It seems as though the soldier looks right at them, and then three seconds after they've slid noisliy down the hill, it seems as if they're at the soldier's feet. How in the world did they get that close (clearly falling and not under the cloaks) with the soldier looking in their direction the entire time, and still not be seen? Watch it again; perhaps you'll see what I mean. It's a little thing, but it gets me every time I watch it.
December 30, 2011 at 1:09AM ESTUGABugKiller Megalodon,
December 30, 2011 at 12:17PM ESTI think I see what you mean. Maybe they hear the noise and that's what brings them over, but they never see The Hobbit s because of a combination of angle, the magic cloaks, and the height of the hobbits? I know it's a stretch, but there you go.
I'll tell you what's ALWAYS bothered me about TTT: Fake Éomer at the end of the film.
In the scene where Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and the Rohirrim ride up to look at Mordor towards the East, there is a a very fake, very not Éomer to Theoden's right hand.
And the thing is, you can tell Jackson was trying to make the double match Karl Urban, because he has the blonde hair, but the dark beard. But it is so obviously NOT Éomer.
That is the scene in this whole trilogy that always makes me shake my head. Fake Éomer. I noticed that in the theater the very first midnight I saw this film. And it bothers me every time since.
Sean Funny mention of that Fake Eomer moment, Uga. Not sure I caught that. I'll have to look for it next time I watch.
December 30, 2011 at 5:39PM ESTThe one moment that always gets on my nerves is Boromir's death scene in Fellowship. For some reason, the way it is edited, Boromir's hand is resting on Aragorn's soldier, then the shot flips to another angle and the hand is gone, then it flips again and it's back, and so on and so on.
It's too bad because it's such a great scene and so well acted, but it really gets on my nerves when I watch it.
I hope they fixed this for the blu-ray release.
UGABugKiller
December 30, 2011 at 12:09AM EST Reply to CommentI remember ten years ago thinking that there was no way in hell Liv Tyler was using her own voice for Arwen.
And she IS amazingly beautiful... and her blue eyes, those beautiful blue eyes (which ARE hers, unlike some of the other elves in the film)... oh my, she should've been Snow White.
Stormshadow4life Yes....she is inhumanly beautiful in this film. She's a pretty girl in real life, but in this movie...I have no idea what they did!
December 30, 2011 at 12:28AM ESTMonty Jack If these movies consisted of nothing but three+ hours of Liv Tyler smiling and batting her eyes at the camera in slow motion, it'd STILL be the best film trilogy of all time. ;)
December 30, 2011 at 1:03AM ESTUGABugKiller
December 30, 2011 at 12:15AM EST Reply to CommentDrew, another mistake I have with this film (to go along with the voice he chose for Treebeard) is Jackson's choice to have the wargs look like giant hyenas instead of the giant wolves they're SUPPOSED to be.
Giullermo Del Toro was going to fix that for The Hobbit, remake wargs into the giant wolves Tolkien described.
I can only hope Jackson kept to that plan.
Stormshadow4life
December 30, 2011 at 12:27AM EST Reply to CommentGotta agree, the Wargs are the weakest FX in the movie....followed bye the breaking of the damn. I wouldn't mind if Jackson ended up fixing the FX at some point....but I wouldn't be upset if he didn't.
UGABugKiller
December 30, 2011 at 12:32AM EST Reply to CommentDrew, a nit-pick (and it's understandable, because the film dances around what it is exactly, that Arwen is giving up for Aragorn), but Elrond pretty much spells it out here:
She WILL continue to live an immortal life. She is an elf, and she is bound to her father's choice to live as an elf with immortality (Elrond is halfelven, his father being Eärendil, yes, the guy who is a star now, who's light Frodo bears... so Elrond chose to live as an elf while his brother chose to live as a human, becoming the first King of Númenor, but given long life... so Elrond is Aragorn's great to the 100th power uncle, so to speak)...
... anyway, Arwen is giving up her life's grace as an elf, not her immortality. She is giving up the ability to sail into the West, to Valinor, to escape the worries and cares of Middle Earth for the evergreen lands of the Valar.
This makes her sacrifice even more meaningful, because once Aragorn is gone, she must live forever, never able to leave her pain behind, always living with it. Until she be killed or Eru unmakes the world.
Robin Excellent explanation of Arwen's fate. Hat tip to you.
December 30, 2011 at 3:38PM ESTAction_Kate Uga, you're mixing up your elves. Elrond is halfelven, so Arwen is a quarter mortal, and she has the same choice as Elrond and Elros did.
January 1, 2012 at 11:10PM ESTShe chooses mortality. She DOES die. Her "life's grace" is both physical immortality and the immortality of her spirit in Valinor.
In Appendix A of ROTK (I'm on page 1038 of the Houghton Mifflin Edition, I think from 1994), it reads:
[After Aragorn's death] "But Arwen went forth from the House... she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came....
"There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is change, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten..."
UGABugKiller
December 30, 2011 at 12:59AM EST Reply to Comment"... How did it come to this?"
Absolutely wonderful, perfect... OUTSTANDING by Bernard Hill.
And for Jackson, to have slowed-down time a bit during that monologue, giving it more weight and meaning.
I love how Jackson-Walsh-Boyens took certain things said by other characters in the book and gave them to others and have it work even better than Tolkien had it originally.
Such great feel for character and moment.
PS - The captcha has me write "Spengler" to post this... oh, Egon... if he didn't believe print was dead, I think he would read LOTR every year as I do.
kuiper
December 30, 2011 at 1:16AM EST Reply to CommentThe music in this Pippin/Merry scene (This is too big for us ... we've got the Shire) is so perfect. The peaceful Shire theme really makes it feel like that is the resolution ... and then Merry slams home the fact that there won't be a Shire. That just feels wrong. It doesn't fit ... which is perfect.
Lbsammills51
December 30, 2011 at 1:52AM EST Reply to CommentThe last march of the Ents and Rohirrim arriving at the Pelennor have been the only moments I've ever had when watching a film that immediately made me want to jump on a horse, grab a sword and go kill something.
I love Mirando Otto too.
UGABugKiller She's a vision of sadness and beauty, but also very real and raw... she's strong like steel in these films. Unlike Galadriel or Arwen, Éowyn is much more present, and I think that is because she's human... she belongs to the world more than they do.
December 30, 2011 at 2:04AM ESTSteve
December 30, 2011 at 4:24AM EST Reply to CommentMiranda Otto was amazing as Eowyn. A shame that she didn't win an Oscar. As for Treebeard, add me to those who never even noticed the voice. I would never have known without the credits. Guess I was caught up in the movie, not taken out of it.
ushaped
December 30, 2011 at 12:47PM EST Reply to CommentDrew, I absolutely agree that TTT benefited the most from the EE treatment. While this series of posts is really tempting me to view the EE's for the first time in seven years, I'm waiting to view The Hobbit films first.
I too look forward to seeing more Gandalf the Grey. I have always lamented how little we saw of him before he must return as The White because Mr. McKellen exudes such warmth as this character.
Stormshadow4life
December 30, 2011 at 5:38PM EST Reply to CommentWon't be able to start ROTK tonight....hopefully tomorrow day or Sunday
Observer
December 30, 2011 at 10:02PM EST Reply to Comment"In a way, I feel like the characters don't really emerge as characters until this movie. The first film sets up the stakes and the world and the way things work, and we see the start of connections, but it's not until everyone is driven apart that we start to get a real sense of them in all their eccentric glory."
This observation really helped me in my understanding of the films. Before, I'd never really been able to nail down why Fellowship was my least favourite of the trilogy.
--
"Hey, Faramir, your brother died because he was a dick. Don't be a dick."
We are all Wheatonians now.
Action_Kate
January 1, 2012 at 11:14PM EST Reply to CommentTwo notes:
Tolkien played around with the idea of an Aragorn/Eowyn romance in early drafts, but eventually changed his mind. Eowyn's unrequited affection and Aragorn's temptation are all that remain.
One technical story I heard about this film and loved: When the renderers were creating the battle of Helm's Deep, they would create groups of orcs and Uruk-hai, and give them some characteristics (more aggressive, more sneaky, etc.) and then let the render go, so they had some random variation to the CGI characters.
In an early render, one group of orcs bunched up and ran away from the battle. "We didn't program them to do that!" said the computer guys. "They did that on their own!"
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