Interview: John Orloff on writing 'Anonymous' and controversy over Shakespearean authorship
Have we all been played? And is that what the film is really about?
Rhys Ifans stars as Edward de Vere in a scene from Roland Emmerich's "Anonymous."
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Something like 20 years ago, screenwriter John Orloff happened upon an episode of PBS's "Frontline" about the authorship question surrounding the works of William Shakespeare. It was something he had never heard before, so, in those antiquated days of pre-internet, he took to the library for a little research.
There weren't a lot of books out at the time dedicated to the issue. He didn't then and he doesn't now have a definitive idea of who might have written the plays attributed to Shakespeare, even though the film bearing his own signature, "Anonymous," props up the Oxfordian theory (that Edward de Vere penned them). But Orloff is, if nothing else, certainly a believer that Shakespeare wasn't the guy.
"I think it's more about education and life experience, not class," he says. "To me, it's not that a man from a lower class could not achieve all of this. Ben Jonson was from a lower class. So was Marlowe. So were most playwrights of the time. But the difference between those people and Shakespeare is they were educated. And to me, it comes down to education and personal experience. And they’re kind of separate."
The argument, of course, made by non-believers for years and years, is that the author of Shakespeare's works would have had to be able to read Latin, Greek, French, Italian and Spanish, given the source materials of a number of the plays and the lack of translations for many of them. And Shakespeare may or may not have even gone to grammar school, Orloff says, but that's a guess because the assumption is he must have had some sort of schooling.
"We can prove he didn't go to university because there were only two universities at the time, Cambridge and Oxford," he says. "And there's no record of him going there. But there are records of Marlowe going there and other playwrights of the time. And then you get into the very specific knowledge that Shakespeare had to have had, like sailing, or the law, or falconry, or tennis, all of these upper class things. And you know, four U.S. Supreme Court Justices don't think the evidence is there to say that Shakespeare wrote the plays. Walt Whitman believed this. Sigmund Freud believed this. Mark Twain wrote a book about why he didn’t think Shakespeare wrote the plays. This is not crazy time.
"One of the things that's kind of interesting about Shakespeare scholarship is it's a very organic thing, because we don't know anything. And so people just sort of guess. It's an evolving story, Shakespeare's life, because we only know like 20 real facts and everything else is guesswork. And the amount of guesses that have come down to us as truth, it's really kind of weird."
And all of that, really, is just background for the story Orloff wanted to tell. He wasn't interested in proving or disproving anything with a screenplay. That's a documentary, he says. To him, "Anonymous" wasn't even expressly about the authorship question (though the op-ed sections of countless newspapers this week nevertheless have scholars and authors up in arms and pulling their hair out at the possibility of the film setting back the generally agreed-upon belief that Shakespeare WAS the guy).
Rather, the authorship issue was a setting more so than a theme. For him, the film was about the power of the written word, and, more precisely, the power of ideas.
"Ideas are more powerful than might," he says. "And I think that's an incredibly timeless theme."
The original incarnation of the script was more like "Amadeus," he says, a tale of jealousy between de Vere, Shakespeare and Ben Jonson, a triangle and a devil's bargain. The script might have found some real traction, but then 1998's "Shakespeare in Love" came along and Orloff's work was pretty much dead on arrival with potential buyers.
But it became a calling card of sorts for him and got him into Tom Hanks's office, which led to a job writing on HBO's "Band of Brothers" television series and later the Angelina Jolie-starrer "A Mighty Heart" and Zack Snyder's animated film "Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole."
Disaster director Roland Emmerich, however, had an interest in it all those years ago. Orloff met with the filmmaker, famous for blockbuster entertainments more so than Elizabethan period pieces, and Emmerich really wanted to make it. But he had a number of ideas that upped the intrigue and melodrama to an extent that made Orloff realize that the way into the material was to make it a Shakespearean, née, Greek tragedy.
"He went off and made another movie and came back having done all this research on his own and he really is the one that sort of injected the whole succession issue," Orloff says. "You know, who was going to be the next king? The Prince Tutor Theory. I'm not sure I believe that, but whether it's historically true or not, I thought it was dramatically fantastic."
Upping the stakes to a "16th Century melodrama," as Orloff calls it, began to inform a number of other creative choices. Particularly, the Shakespeare character in the film.
"We made him a little broader, a little sillier than maybe he was before," he says. "Because he suddenly became the fool, the sort of stock Shakespearean fool who also is very wise at the same time. Like the fool in 'Lear' is really the one who, let’s just say manages to be on top or, you know, he is the wisest. He somehow navigates all of this treachery and is on top. That’s a very Shakespearean thing."
Orloff's script was smaller in scale before Emmerich came on board, too, he says. "It was more about censorship and jealously and a little bit more of a character study than it is now," he says. "And when Roland came and we talked about it, it suddenly became a political thriller, which necessitated opening it up and talking about London larger and the effect that these plays were having on a larger canvas than what I originally had."
The "Independence Day" director upped the production ante, bringing his deft touch with CGI into the fold. Pretty much any exterior in the film is a soundstage with green screen, Orloff says. And yet it's seamless. Emmerich also employed digital photography for the film, which is already being considered one of the most beautiful implementations of the technology on a feature thus far.
"I think the thing that’s really interesting about the film for me, just as a viewer, is I’m not sure any period movie has been made quite this way," Orloff says. "Like the degree of green screen is – it’s just unheard of for a period piece. Occasionally they’ll do a money shot, like in 'Titanic,' you know? They’ll have the money shot of the Titanic or in 'Gladiator,' that was one of the early period movies that had CGI in it, but it was just a couple of long shots of Rome or whatever. In this movie every other shot, pretty much any exterior you see in the movie with the exception of one road or any theater, it’s fake."
From here, Orloff moves on to his next big, just-announced project, Bryan Singer's feature film version of "Battlestar Galactica," which he is excited about mainly because it gives him the chance to write in the science-fiction genre he loves so much. Though judging by reaction to the ideas proposed in "Anonymous," you'd think he was being outlandish enough as it is.
With the film's release imminent, Orloff is very aware of the stir it's causing, as it did when it premiered at the Toronto Film Festival in September. And naturally, being a questioner of Shakespeare's authorship for so long, he has had plenty of time to digest and consider what makes people so angry about the notion, whether at dinner parties in idle conversation or now surrounding his work on "Anonymous." And it boils down, for him, to a sense of loss.
"I think people subconsciously, it’s almost as though you’re attacking their entire education," he says. "Because you’re sort of saying, 'Hey, you were taught all this stuff in school and I don’t think it’s really true.' And people get defensive about it. And I think in addition to that, Shakespeare in particular is like this one figure that we all have a common experience with. We don’t all read 'Catcher in the Rye,' but pretty much you’re forced to read some Shakespeare.
"And people who consider themselves more educated, they take their Shakespeare seriously. I don’t know why. Because I keep on saying to people, if we make the exact same movie and everywhere we said the word 'William Shakespeare' we put in the words 'Thomas Decker,' who was another playwright in the 16th Century and have the exact same story, nobody would care. They wouldn't be mortally offended. Luckily, though, the film is mostly getting well-received, even if they think the premise is ludicrous. Because the film stands on its own."
"Anonymous" opens in limited release Friday, October 28.
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October 27, 2011 at 3:31PM EST Reply to CommentThis guy seems to be on the more reasonable end of the Oxfordian nut scale. The problem with the Oxford claim, along with all other alternative claims to Shakespearean authorship, is that none of their acknowledged, existing work bears any stylistic resemblance whatsoever when compared with the works of the bard. This seems to me to be the smoking gun invalidating their claims, along with the robustness of the historical record.
HoustonRufus
October 27, 2011 at 4:00PM EST Reply to CommentThe reviews aren't that great. I don't really have an interest in it. I don't have a problem with such a film but will readily admit to being prickly on this subject. I don't like casual rewrites of history.
Such claims have aways struck me as silly. It makes for a sexy story, but it's not based on fact. It's based on asumptions. There is evidence however pointing to the fact that one man wrote the works of William Shakespeare, that man being Wiliam Shakespeare. I don't have much patience for this retelling of history, however stylish or fun the exercise might be. A.O. Scott likened such notions to "birtherism" in American politics. I agree. Such ideas only tend to shed light on those making the claim.
I have revered the works of Shakespeare all my life. People aren't protective of his work just because "Shakespeare" is attached to it. That's rather daft. People are protective of the work because they are monumental works of literature/art that have helped define western civilization. So, yes, you'll have to forgive me for wanting challengers, even filmmakers, to base their claims on a certain level of actual scholarship. It's a subject matter that deserves to be taken seriously.
MaxC
October 27, 2011 at 4:13PM EST Reply to CommentMaybe Orloff can follow this up with a "truther" film? It’s about as plausible as this claptrap.
I realize we can’t all be early modernists but really… interviewers shouldn’t let people spew this BS unchallenged.
CaptainCanada
October 27, 2011 at 5:28PM EST Reply to CommentShakespeare's writings have plenty of mistakes in them. I don't know why the idea of him just doing research is so difficult to understand.
Danny
October 27, 2011 at 8:24PM EST Reply to CommentI find it a lot easier to believe that Shakespeare was educated, even self taught, than that he was a front for some other writer of all his works.
After all, English academics are pretty good at recognizing and distinguishing any one writer's style from another's. Nobody disputes that the works attributed to Shakespeare were written by one individual - (except for those works outside the canon where scholars detect Shakespeare's hand in collaboration with others). So look at Shakespeare's sonnets. They are extremely personal (some so embarrassingly intimate in a manner that suggests most weren't intended for public consumption) - and several contain puns on the name "Will". Could it be possible the true author of the works attributed to Shakespeare wrote these sexy poems addressed to his male and female lover but changed his name to Will or was also called Will? Please.
"Will in the World" is a really good book about what we can know about Shakespeare and what we know about the education and experience available to William Shakespeare in his time (including that in his Grammar School he would have been exposed to the classical plays that inform his work). What is amazing about Shakespeare is that he is so obviously an incredible genius, had to have been to write the plays he did. A once in a century person, like Mozart or Einstein. Those people tend to not fit into any mold of the expected or regular.
HoustonRufus Well said. Thank you.
October 27, 2011 at 8:50PM ESTAvel Absolutely. Especially - 'a lot easier to believe that Shakespeare was educated, even self taught"
October 28, 2011 at 4:46AM ESTCaptainCanada James Shapiro's "Contested Will" argues persuasively that the tendency to read the sonnets (and plays) as autobiographical is actually a big part of the problem feeding the authorship controversy. There's no real basis for deciding that they are, and this only really started once it became clear that there was no biographical treasure trove of Shakespeare artifacts waiting to be found - hence, people started using his plays as a basis for drawing conclusions about his life. And when the conclusions didn't square with what we little we knew about his backstory, some people started suggesting it must have been someone else.
October 29, 2011 at 12:24AM ESTDanny True, it is best to tread very carefully when inferring biographical details based on prose or poetry. Still, when a poet writing in first person singular clearly puns on the word "Will", or "your will", meaning both the addressee's wish and the first person narrator's name, it is hard to believe the poet's name isn't intended to be Will (or William).
October 29, 2011 at 11:49AM ESTWill
October 27, 2011 at 10:36PM EST Reply to CommentAm interested to see this based solely on your enthusiasm for it, Kris. As a premise, it sounds kind of ridiculous, and (frankly) the whole central argument of this particular conspiracy has always seemed like rubbish. As with most things, the simplest answer to a 'mystery' is usually the correct one.
Anne
October 28, 2011 at 12:46AM EST Reply to CommentI always find it fascinating that all the people vehemently and smugly denouncing these theories as "pure rubbish", and claiming themselves to be learned scholars about the matter, have not, in fact, ever bothered to really examine the facts of the case at all. Because if they did, they would see that the real "rubbish" is the notion that Will Shaksper the actor wrote the plays. And no, I don't subscribe to the Oxford theory - I subscribe to the Bacon theory, because there is huge, copious amounts of evidence to support it.
Here's one of the most glaringly smoking gun facts of the case: The ONLY "Shakespeare" notebook to have ever been found - one containing expressions, phrases, and sentences found in ALL the plays BEFORE they premiered - was written by Francis Bacon, and called the Promus. Bacon started writing it in the early 1590s, before Will Shaksper the actor ever even came to London. In fact, several of the plays were first performed in the early 1590s at Gray's Inn, where Bacon was a patron and frequent artistic contributor - again, before Shaksper ever came to London. Then Richard II premiered several years later, and made the Queen furious because of all its accurate royal insider information (gee, Bacon was a high-ranking member in court...). The Queen charged Bacon to find the author of the play (because it was not known). Bacon traveled the long distance from London to Stratford, and suddenly, Will Shaksper came into a large sum of money - and then came to London. Gee. What a "coincidence".
There's much more. You can read about it here, if you can bear to: http://www.sirbacon.org/links/evidence.htm
Danny I read it. And I find it thoroughly unconvincing. To quote from it:
October 28, 2011 at 12:54PM EST"The most important evidence in the Promus is the word ALBADA, Spanish for good dawning (Folio 112). This expression good dawning' only appears once in English print, namely, in the play of King Lear where we find "Good dawning to thee friend," Act 2, Scene 2. This word ALBADA is in the Promus 1594-96 and King Lear was not published until 1600's.If Will Shaksper had not seen the "Promus", and as he could not read Spanish, it would mean that some friend had found this word ALBADA, meaning good dawning and told Shaksper about it, and that Shaksper then put the word into King Lear, which sounds highly improbable."
Highly Improbable? Not at all. I find the logic of this article much more highly improbable.
And all but four the examples listed are of phrases that only vaguely find repetition in Shakespeare, and are phrases that seem incidental to the works themselves. Huge copious amounts of evidence? I beg to differ.
Danny "Sir Francis Bacon’s eligibility as the true author of Shakespeare’s work rests in his legal knowledge and general education. It is known that Bacon was familiar with Rosicrucian, Hermetic, Kabbalistic and Neoplatonic themes. The poem Venus and Adonis, As You Like It, and Love’s Labour’s Lost all feature Rosicrucian themes but this does not mean Sir Francis wrote them; only that he was in a position to write about Rosicrucian themes.
October 28, 2011 at 1:00PM ESTUnfortunately this is where the similarity ends as the Bard discusses legal concepts and terms far more abstractly than Bacon. Even worse for Bacon supporters is the question of where Bacon could find the time to write 37 plays, and 154 sonnets, and act in many of these own plays whilst leading a double life.
Furthermore the claim that Bacon authored Shakespeare’s poetry suffers from the fact that Bacon’s poetry is abrupt and stilted unlike the Bard's. Bacon supporters reply that Francis Bacon’s Promus is the only surviving collection of terms and phrases which occur commonly in Shakespeare’s plays. Unfortunately this does not mean Bacon authored them. Like Stratfordians, evidence for authorship is highly subjective."
Quoted from http://absoluteshakespeare.com/trivia/authorship/authorship_bacon_marlowe_stanely.htm
CaptainCanada The Baconian case rests virtually entirely on absurd cipher-readings of the texts.
October 29, 2011 at 12:23AM ESTAnne Wow. You guys just completely proved my point that Stratfordians never actually examine the facts - they just do a cursory glance at a few of the points, and then dismiss them based on some other Stratfordian's "research" and opinion on the topic.
October 29, 2011 at 5:30PM ESTFirst, you somehow dismiss that Bacon wrote the Shakespeare writings in his journal, The Promus - even though it was HIS private journal, that no one else saw until after his death, and that the sentences and phrases in this journal are dated long before the Shakespeare plays they later appeared in were first shown to the public. Then you dismiss the words and phrases as "incidental". If you actually read The Promus, or a detailed analysis of it, you would see how wrong you are, and that these were not just a “random” collection of “incidental” words.
Secondly, just by taking this cursory glance at another Stratfordian "disproving" The Promus evidence, you are satisfied that there are not huge, copious amounts of evidence. If you had actually looked at the website I linked to, you would once again see how wrong you are.
And again, based on another Stratfordian’s analysis, you dismiss Bacon’s poetry as “stilted”. Not sure what writings you are looking at here (maybe his “scientific” poetry?), but of the writings irrefutably attributed to Bacon (including the poems), it’s pretty clear that he was an exceptional, beautiful writer.
Anne I'm not going to make a mammoth post detailing all the evidence which is already well-detailed on this site (http://www.sirbacon.org/links/evidence.htm), but I will point out a few more points, since you guys apparently refuse to visit the site:
October 29, 2011 at 5:39PM EST1) The plays, in the order they premiered to the public, eerily mirror events in Bacon's life. (here's a nice summary: http://www.sirbacon.org/btheobaldenterchxiv.htm) Most of the comedies premiered in the late 1580s-1590s, when Bacon was happy and prosperous, and Shaksper was poor and going through a hard time personally. Then the really dark plays like Hamlet and Macbeth premiered in the 1600s, when Bacon was going through a dark, rough time personally and financially, and Shaksper was really rich and prosperous and happy.
2) Shaksper died in 1616, and wrote a will that mentioned NOTHING about the plays, the sonnets, or any of "his" writings. New Shake-speare plays (yes, that is how the name was first published at the time), kept coming out, and then the famous 1622 Quarto and revised 1623 Folio came out, with NEW edits by the "author". Then Bacon died in 1626, and new plays and "author edits" stopped completely. Gee. What a "coincidence".
3) The plays include Bacon’s scientific theories – and his scientific mistakes. They also include personal details from his life, later found in private letters that NO ONE from the public could have seen (“The Tempest” is one such example).
4) Famous contemporary writers like Ben Johnson were close friends of Bacon, and referred to him as a “concealed poet”, and acknowledged that he was “supreme” among them. In Johnson’s list of the greatest wits of his day, he does NOT list Shakespeare – but he does list Bacon.
There are more points. Many more. But again, you’ll have to read the site. Oh, and Bacon did not act in the plays. Baconians are not claiming that at all. The primary argument is that, a) Bacon was a prolific writer who wrote the plays and sonnets over the course of his WHOLE life (starting long before anyone else saw them), and b) in order to save his neck from the chopping block because of all the royal "insider" information he put into the plays, he payed Will Shaksper (who NEVER spelled his name "Shakespeare", BTW) to come to London and take credit for the plays. It’s not a huge stretch to imagine that.
CaptainCanada The whole "it matches his life!" argument has been made for every authorship contender, pretty much, which disproves the notion that such a comparison has any merit. And it's only useful if you choose to read the plays as a covert autobiography, which there's no particular justification for.
October 29, 2011 at 7:34PM ESTShakespeare wasn't considered the greatest English playwright in his day, so the fact that Jonson said Bacon was "supreme" and not on Jonson's list means nothing. In fact, Jonson himself was better thought-of than Shakespeare in their lifetime.
Shakespeare's will makes no mention of the plays because he didn't own them. They were the property of the company he wrote them for.
Danny Anna, you have a rather loose definition of what constitutes "proof" and actual "facts".
October 29, 2011 at 7:40PM ESTFor the record, I read the website you linked to properly and posted my first response to it before doing some more web-searching, which led me to the site from which I quoted in my subsequent post.
But you assume, no feel you can "proove" that I just did "a cursory glance at a few of the points, and then dismiss(ed) them based on some other Stratfordian's "research" and opinion on the topic." No, I found the website you linked to weak tea purely on its own merits.
But you clearly are quick to make all sorts of assumptions...
Danny Excuse me, I meant to type "Anne".
October 29, 2011 at 7:41PM ESTAnne CaptainCanada: How many authors of the time (Shaksper included) were documented as spending years in the Court of Navarre in France, with the Princess of France - i.e. the main plot of Love's Labour's Lost? Only Francis Bacon. And as French historians have confirmed, only someone who actually spent time there could have included the historically accurate details that were present in that play.
October 30, 2011 at 4:05PM ESTAnd hey, did Shaksper ever find himself in trouble with a Jewish money lender in Venice (i.e. the main plot of The Merchant of Venice)? Nope, he didn't - because he never left England. But guess what: Francis Bacon once found himself in major trouble with a Jewish money lender while in Venice, and his brother Anthony (read: Antonio) bailed him out. I could go on...
As for Johnson and other writing contemporaries of Shakespeare, don't you find it more than a little odd that they never referred to Shakespeare as a person? They only ever referred to the Shakespeare writings. There was never any mention of what a genius Shakespeare THE MAN had to have been. But they frequently praised Francis Bacon, the man, and used the same phrases to praise Bacon as they did to praise the Shakespeare writings.
As for Shaksper's will: You can argue that he didn't "own" the plays, perhaps - but he certainly owned the Sonnets, and any first drafts/rejected drafts/writing journals of the plays. As all authors do (which is why their descendents often donate a famous author's unpublished materials to various organizations). But bizarrely, Shaksper left no writing material behind. In fact, the man never ever wrote about "his" Shakespeare writings, his writing process, thoughts on developing the plots, etc.... nothing. Not one word. But Francis Bacon left a big fat writing journal behind full of Shakespeare phrases - the ONLY Shakespeare writing journal in existence, written in Bacon's hand. He also referred to himself as a "concealed poet" - while Shaksper never ever spoke of being a poet or a writer at all.
Which is why, Danny, I find it hilarious that you accuse me of having a "loose definition of what constitutes proof" and being "quick to make all sorts of assumptions." Because that is exactly what you and other Stratfordians are doing: you're making a very huge assumption based on very thin evidence, and ignoring all evidence to the contrary.
I mean honestly, your biggest piece of "proof" is that there was this uneducated actor in London who had a very similar name to William Shake-speare (even though he never spelled his name that way) - therefore, he must have been the author. Wow. That sure is rock solid proof...
justin_perry
December 22, 2011 at 4:35PM EST Reply to CommentWell it's also impossible that a guy building a computer in his garage could have changed the world. Or that Bill Gates could become richer than (literally) most nations even though he didn't have an education.
So we don't buy into his theories because we can't cope with loss? We're children of the 90's: we've lost everything from the Founding Fathers to Columbus, to Thanksgiving. Don't lecture US on loss.